More Paladin-centered shields needed to close the gap with Aegis & Ochain

[Radd]

His point was about taking less damage from a likely-killing blow, I'd imagine. If you take the tp moves away from the scorp, or at least death scissors, an rdm and buckler pdt capped buckler pld could hold it.

Yeah, there's no doubt that Ochain is more reliable than steadfast, or aegis, when it comes to physical damage.

Oh I got his point, but I was just saying that in an overall case of not getting oneshot, you would want ochain glued to your arm for physical attacks no matter what, because it's too broken.

[Demon6324236]

While this is true, the problem with this is that only matters when you fail the block check. In overall damage taken, the Ochain paladin will always take less physical damage over a larger amount of time due to the higher block rate alone. I guess it would make a big difference if it was the first hit and the only hit that lands on you, but you know fights last longer than that. lol

Yeah, I just meant that one specific hit to be exact would actually be worse for the Ochain PLD rather than for the non-Ochain PLD in that case. In the overall fight or in most cases, when a block is involved really, Ochain obviously takes full advantage and wins, but if you do not block it, then Ochain is worse off than Steadfast if done properly. Its another one of those situational things, kinda like how a Mythic is amazing with AM3, but without it, they suck, well, Steadfast is better than Ochain when Ochain fails to block, but when it blocks, its god.

[Radd]

Yeah, I just meant that one specific hit to be exact would actually be worse for the Ochain PLD rather than for the non-Ochain PLD in that case. In the overall fight or in most cases, when a block is involved really, Ochain obviously takes full advantage and wins, but if you do not block it, then Ochain is worse off than Steadfast if done properly. Its another one of those situational things, kinda like how a Mythic is amazing with AM3, but without it, they suck, well, Steadfast is better than Ochain when Ochain fails to block, but when it blocks, its god.

Pretty much, but the chances of it not blocking are very low to moderate in comparison to your standard size 3 shield, and that's the problem lol. Steadfast looks like a great piece, too bad it's held back by overall block percentages.

[Demon6324236]

Oh I got his point, but I was just saying that in an overall case of not getting oneshot, you would want ochain glued to your arm for physical attacks no matter what, because it's too broken.

Admittedly the gap for Physical damage alone is not to large in my opinion on higher leveled mobs, its the advantage from the MP that creates the gap at that points in my opinion because a truly skilled PLD with the right gear can keep themselves alive forever so long as nothing hits them hard enough to basically kill them in 1 shot. No doubt you take less still, but the gap is more like a 20% gap, rather than 50% on lower levels. The MP on the other hand a non-Ochain PLD is not getting, while an Ochain PLD is recovering 25~35% of their MP back just by standing around and blocking, which lets them heal and keep casting a ton more. That goes back to what I said way earlier in here though, and that is that Ochain acts more like an Apoc does for a DRK, it opens that door to greater self sustainability, where as an Aegis is simply for taking hits only, kinda like Rag is just DMG power.

Pretty much, but the chances of it not blocking are very low to moderate in comparison to your standard size 3 shield, and that's the problem lol. Steadfast looks like a great piece, too bad it's held back by overall block percentages.

True, and agreed, I just wanted to point out that it does have some use and in that exact situation it would have been better for a Steadfast than an Ochain was all. I know generally it would not be the case. Its block rate will always be better than any other, but the whole thing is that if its to high of a level and blocking is not as likely, it loses a great deal of its Physical reduction power. I don't think there is a point where overall damage would tip in Steadfast's favor, but I think there is a point where on higher level mobs it closes the gap a bit. Magic damage on the other hand, nothing besides Aegis breaks the cap on MDT that a PLD gets natively so far as I know, so that is a gap you can not bridge no matter the level or the shield.

[OmnysValefor]

I've got one last thing to say, but otherwise I'm done arguing, though I honestly have enjoyed your posts Demon^^. It's a silly difference of opinion.

(I will say I was wrong that a mid-level shield somehow nerfs people, like myself, who've built the shields. I DO think it's a bit of a slap in the face, but it doesn't affect me.)

I said my piece, a few times, and a few different ways and it's fine that people disagreed. A lot of people here merely speculating about what Ochain and Aegis must be like are creating illusions of grandeur. Why do I do well in Delve? Why does Zigfried (he's on my server, and were in the same shell for a short time)? We're both well geared PLDs. We don't equip Aegis, ask for Shell and go. We both have good DT sets (his is better than mine, but I'ma get my hands on the precious ring--yeah, d.ring). Ochain's blocking is a luxury but no longer afkable. You can bet that every minute the scorp is hitting me, even though it's purely physical damage, I'm watching my screen.

We don't stack hp gear blindly, we don't supertank in 5/5 Creed +2 (I like 2/5 myself. Hands/Legs.). A lot of people that won't build aegis/ochain won't build decent dt sets. They think 5/5 is fine and don't understand why it isn't. Yes, that set bonus has saved my life, but I'd say the 18% PDT/ 13% DT most players can put in those three slots has saved my life more not to mention causing me to see more 0s, though they're rare against nm's, then the mob gaining tp slower.

When I enter a delve, I'll pull with the group until we find NMs. It's better that I supertank the trash tahn a bard sleeps them because these half-baked bards couldn't resleep a peaceful baby. Ochain's blocking probably is 100% there, not that I pay much attention, and my log scrolls 0s.

When I do get my ring, I'll probably go build an MDB sword to go with ochain when I'm supertanking that way, it might allow me to change other things around and maybe fit in another piece of Creed, if I never get Nocturnus helm.

That's the level of commitment I put into Paladin and it makes me sad that a lot of people really want to half-bake it, though I'm sure the pros of the jobs I half-bake would cringe too. The difference is, I'm not trying to bring those jobs to content where speed of the kill matters.

Ochain/Aegis is so easy to get that there's a number of people that have it that don't even understand their job. I've encountered at least 2 paladins with aegis/ochain in the past week alone that don't know what supertanking is. These paladins have told me things like -

- You can't block while not engaged.
- You can't get tp if you block for 0 with phalanx (phalanx's reduction is ignored, though stoneskin/etc is not).

- so it's sad when you, someone who actually seems to understand the job, don't have the passion to play it the best you can.

Lastly, sometimes I die. These NMs can hurt even an aegis/ochain. I'm not sure what kind of less-good, but still acceptable shield SE could design.

[Numquam]

More lazy players complaining!

[Hayward]

More lazy players complaining!

Thanks for contributing absolutely nothing, BG drone.

[Camiie]

With as good as these two shields are, why do some seem to think there's no room for truly strong shields in the intermediate to high-end range? It seems to me that SE has quite a lot of wiggle room here.

Beyond that with everyone else out there (sans BRD) replacing their hard earned R/M/E or holding out for a saving throw from the devs, why are these shields some sort of sacred cow that can never be approached or surpassed?

[Kincard]

I'd love to see them intentionally create an item with the goal of it beating Aegischain. It's pretty apparent that the reason they never outdated them in the first place is because they KNEW they were overpowered, no sane person designing a game would add in items that make your character nearly invulnerable to attack unless the goal was to add something broken.

[Mirage]

They can't add anything that is stronger than aegischain because it would break the game, basically.