Pld Emnity/hate distribution chages?

[rog]

If SE intends to make Paladins actually have some sort of place in the game again they need bosses that can kill damage dealer jobs but when tanked won't kill the tank.

I still don't see how they would do that.

[Duelle]

enmity isnt the real issue, using pld being able to outenmity other DD will just end up slowing kill speed.
DD survivability IS the issue: you dont need tank if DD can survive as well without one

The only reason DD survive rate is so high is because of utsusemi. That's not the PLD class' fault, really.

Likewise, you can't make a PLD required for everything. I'd think the class needs bigger changes, but +emnity traits might be a good start. I was once kicking around an idea to give PLD its own version of Defender (which as we know can be kept up indefinitely), but instead of raising defense it raises emnity generated by everything the PLD does. Could never think of a downside for it, though.

[Zephrose]

In most other MMOs they don't really have a cap on hate. If fact the tank usually is able to get abound 50% above everyone else on the hate table.

Its just the way FFXI works, there's no real bosses that can kill non tank classes, that make it necessary to even have a tank. If SE intends to make Paladins actually have some sort of place in the game again they need bosses that can kill damage dealer jobs but when tanked won't kill the tank.

You just reminded me of the old days.

*Sam goes into SC on Tiamat*
Sam: OK guys! FRAG INC!!!
Tiamat: Oh hello Mr. Sam. Say hello to my hidden counter.
*Sam die unexpectedly*
Sam: WHAT KILLED ME!? I didnt even see any damage. <,<;;

*Tiamat snickers under her breath*
Taimat: Go go Double Attack Might Strikes!

Ahh, The good ol'days of HNMs. lol Alas, those days are over now. Most of those old NMs are novelty now. As much as people hate Khimiara, I enjoyed the battle everytime I was up to tank.

[rog]

The only reason DD survive rate is so high is because of utsusemi. That's not the PLD class' fault, really.

No, it's because whms have infinite mp, and can spam cure5 for longer than the mob can attack. Not even nins should be wasting time casting utsu more often than not.

Likewise, you can't make a PLD required for everything. I'd think the class needs bigger changes, but +emnity traits might be a good start. I was once kicking around an idea to give PLD its own version of Defender (which as we know can be kept up indefinitely), but instead of raising defense it raises emnity generated by everything the PLD does. Could never think of a downside for it, though.

Pld does not need more enmity. They can hold hate as well as the incredibly low hate cap will allow them too. Nothing will change that.

[Attilas]

Paladin should not receive additional attack power. Giving attack, heals and defense to one class will make it overpowered.

Paladin need to be able to mitigate damage and control fights. This is where SE need to work to get it right and some really good Ideas from peoples could make Paladin better at those two:

- Lower Cover recast to <1 mins with merit and grant a Enmity sharing or transfer with the protected player.
- Lower Shield bash to <1 mins with merit and grant an enmity similar to flash.
- Give another second hate class ability like flash/provoke. 30-40 seconds to give more controls.
- Shield to mitigate more damage. Compared to Evasion and Counter, Shield is shy...
- Shield proc rate to be augmented at 80% (rather than 65%). This to proc as good as Evasion matching lower Hit rate of 20%.
- Raise native defense/VIT (Make it usefull) of Paladin. Paladin get +60 defense and Thief +60 Evasion. 60 Evasion is way more usefull than 60 Defense. Make it +180 defense.

But even if paladin receive some buff we simply can't avoid the fact that most DD/NIN are way to good to avoid damage. I remember even before Abyssea to see mostly DD/NIN.

Just imagine each class, one by one without /NIN and see how everything come back to normal !!! Samurai co-tank use Third Eye and Monk use counter. Thief getting lucky at avoiding hits. Unfortunatly its hard to nerf something that so good and most people would not like to loose so much. I do use it myself way to often as PLD/NIN, BLU/NIN and DRG/NIN But...

Utsusemi : Ni give 4 shadows to NIN and 3 shadows to /NIN
Utsusemi : Ichi give 3 shadows to NIN but still give 3 shadows to /NIN

I think Ichi should only give /NIN 2 shadows to make it more occasionaly usefull considering the casting time... It could be a logical nerf that should have been done from begining...

[rog]

/nin definitely is not the issue. Hardly anyone uses it anymore, except for soloists, and wars, which is only for the procs, not utsu.

[Duelle]

Pld does not need more enmity. They can hold hate as well as the incredibly low hate cap will allow them too. Nothing will change that.

Well, for one it might help with itemization. PLD AF sets all have some boosters to emnity. They've also valued it on gear despite the fact that tanks generally should have a way to inherently generate more hate than the other members of the party. I guess it would go in hand with reitemizing certain gear wearable by PLDs in exchange for increased baseline emnity pre-merits, which I realize is something of a pipe dream.

The alternative is to add something to inherently decreases emnity lost per hit while equiping a shield (could toss in some passive damage reduction, as survivability is supposed to notably increase just from equipping the shield itself). The defender clone idea I mentioned could be changed to match that purpose. I know that might create something odd when combined with all the -physical damage taken stats on gear we've been seeing as of late, but it could be a start. The idea is to make them beneficial to the group without making them absolutely required.

[Attilas]

/nin definitely is not the issue. Hardly anyone uses it anymore, except for soloists, and wars, which is only for the procs, not utsu.

Still think that if you want to tank something you need to /NIN to make it work whatever you are in a ally, party or solo. Rare sub job can give you that much survability without reducing main class damage. /DNC still give real good survability but at the expense of TP wish reduce damage output.

I agree in Abyssea most people tend to sub something else mainly because most fight again NM usualy consist of some tank either NIN/ or /NIN and DD that doesn't hit the NM since we don't want to generate TP. There is not much situation I can see a Abyssea Tank not involving shadows. Unless they kite or special tricky AOE NM.

I still think /NIN is giving too much and I still think its one of the most used sub job actualy for tank and DD jobs.

[rog]

Still think that if you want to tank something you need to /NIN to make it work whatever you are in a ally, party or solo. Rare sub job can give you that much survability without reducing main class damage. /DNC still give real good survability but at the expense of TP wish reduce damage output.

I agree in Abyssea most people tend to sub something else mainly because most fight again NM usualy consist of some tank either NIN/ or /NIN and DD that doesn't hit the NM since we don't want to generate TP. There is not much situation I can see a Abyssea Tank not involving shadows. Unless they kite or special tricky AOE NM.

I still think /NIN is giving too much and I still think its one of the most used sub job actualy for tank and DD jobs.

mnk/sam tanks really. I don't know why you need /nin when whms have infinite mp to spam cures.

[Attilas]

mnk/sam tanks really. I don't know why you need /nin when whms have infinite mp to spam cures.

I understand it can work as mnk/sam. But let see a MNK again NM like Rani. Im pretty sure you agree with me that MNK/NIN will outperform MNK/SAM in term of "taking less damage as possible".

There is some interesting combination out there. But up to now I have completed all abyssea zone and Cacturae and all tanks was using shadows. I doupt, but I can be wrong, that it could run as smooth if no one in the entire alliance was using shadows.

MNK/NIN and NIN/WAR tank NM in Abyssea. Other possibilities exist both they are the most efficient.