Pld Emnity/hate distribution chages?

[hiko]

enmity isnt the real issue, using pld being able to outenmity other DD will just end up slowing kill speed.
DD survivability IS the issue: you dont need tank if DD can survive as well without one

[Duelle]

enmity isnt the real issue, using pld being able to outenmity other DD will just end up slowing kill speed.
DD survivability IS the issue: you dont need tank if DD can survive as well without one

The only reason DD survive rate is so high is because of utsusemi. That's not the PLD class' fault, really.

Likewise, you can't make a PLD required for everything. I'd think the class needs bigger changes, but +emnity traits might be a good start. I was once kicking around an idea to give PLD its own version of Defender (which as we know can be kept up indefinitely), but instead of raising defense it raises emnity generated by everything the PLD does. Could never think of a downside for it, though.

[rog]

The only reason DD survive rate is so high is because of utsusemi. That's not the PLD class' fault, really.

No, it's because whms have infinite mp, and can spam cure5 for longer than the mob can attack. Not even nins should be wasting time casting utsu more often than not.

Likewise, you can't make a PLD required for everything. I'd think the class needs bigger changes, but +emnity traits might be a good start. I was once kicking around an idea to give PLD its own version of Defender (which as we know can be kept up indefinitely), but instead of raising defense it raises emnity generated by everything the PLD does. Could never think of a downside for it, though.

Pld does not need more enmity. They can hold hate as well as the incredibly low hate cap will allow them too. Nothing will change that.

[Registeel]

All of these suggestions sound great. Especially a cover tweak. I hate the fact that I can only cover my party members and no one else in my alliance. Not only that but it doesn't last long enough even with merits.

I hear you on that. What also grinds my gears is how a lot of the time, people don't let me Cover them. Either they refuse to back up from being up on the mob's skin, or run away when I step in front of them. Trying to explain how Cover works can run into problems with language barriers and people who don't understand PLD abilities. But eh, minor complaints.

I too am hopeful for there being more exciting opportunities for us PLD enthusiasts in the near future.

[Mustakrakish]

To a somewhat related point, I believe PLD should have its own NATIVE Provoke. All other jobs are getting traits and such (dual wield anyone) that normally required a subclass just for that. A paladin is a tank, meant to be a tank, and should be a tank, so why not give it the ability it needs to do its job and open up other subjob opportunities.

[Yukichibi]

It's hard to make it like: if you have a pld it's easier, but you can do it without it if you want.
Because if you need a PLD for everything, the game will become somewhat static.
The other side is, why taking a pld, even if he holds hate, when you can have a mnk or a war, which can keep hate, deals tons of damage, and you can bomb cure it.
I like PLD, it's my first job i leveled 75, but inside abyssea PLD is dead, let's see if there is something outside abyssea coming.

[Elonial]

Paladin being my only job at 90, it's somewhat depressing /shouting for a THF or NIN tank for Abyssea.

[Lutschfactor]

ok, first of all. lets use the jobs in this game as to how they were ment to be used. second. yes u can have a mnk or war keep hate with cure bombs. thats not how this game was ment to be played. if u want to play this game that way. i suggest u go to WOW and play a real kids game. Abyssea isnt ment for an alliance of 8-10 mnk and wars and the rest whms to cure bomb on the hardest NMs in the game so far. can it be done, yes. are u a good group that can do that. no u have no skill at this game what so ever. have a real group of people who use the jobs for how they were ment do have a rough time on mobs like raja and others that you need to do certain things when they are casting spells or doing JA. this game is metn to make u think on how to beat these mobs..no just zerg it all down. yes pld needs a heavy upgrade. doesnt matter if u have relics or Empyrean weapons. and last as to pld being dead inside abyssea. ask mnks why they get 1 shotted for 3k plus damage on ga4? but yet when i get hit with that 600-700 if i dont put on magic damage down? so as to our LS and how we do the game the real way, pld is no where near dead

[Czeph]

Having read through the entirety of this thread.......
I will speak from my experience of being a pld main in abyssea.
With strong DDs and nukers, it is possible to maintain hate on paladin if done correctly for a time(details have been discussed on numerous forums and in guides for a long time). The problem occurs when others reach the emnity cap and repeatedly produce spike damage or a mob decays hate at a ridiculous rate. Vorpal blade spam in place of atonement spam seems to work ok between 1000<3500(more 1-3k on serious nms), it does something towards balancing this out. Chant du cygne seems to be more consistant damagewise, producing 2-6k(more 1-5k on serious NMs) from a pld set up well for it.

Run the figures for mnk/nin and pld/nin tp feeding a mob, pld will feed less tp over the same ammount of time unless the mnk makes real effort to stack subtle blow.

The best idea I've seen here has been raising the VE cap slightly for paladin as a trait.
A native provoke ability and a second flash ability come a close joint second.
Increasing paladins damage output coming third.

My suggestion would be to:
1) give paladin fencer as a native job trait.
2) give enmity bonus as a native job trait as described in an earlier post.
3) add a migawari: ichi style ability or job trait or spell with an equal effect/duration/recast.
4) allow paladin the same kind of bonus from stats that 2handed weapon users enjoy for sword only.
5) a new cure spell for pld rdm and sch averaging about 1k.
6) a new divine magic based spell that will cause non-elemental magic damage.
7) repairing atonements damage, and raising it's damage cap.
8) some sort of swift blade damage modifier improvement.

All of the above may sound overpowered, but in practice, only good paladins would succeed from these adjustments. It would require some testing with these in effect.

Addressing other issues found in this post:
1) MNK does not have the same -control- of hate a good paladin has, in or out of abyssea.
2) WAR does not have the same -control- of hate a good paladin has, in or out of abyssea.
3) reguarding the above statements, I am talking about -control- not -generation-.
4) PLD is not useless in abyssea if played well, it covers all the same red triggers warrior does with the exception of scythe(and dagger if subbing war).
5) whatever they try will be adjusted if it is overpowered or underpowered.

Finally, I would like to point out that this is based of my experience doing regular events in abyssea and numerous pickup runs. I don't intend to belittle MNK or WAR as a tank as such, just point out that whilest popular oppinion is against PLD lately that doesn't mean it's right: people used to think the earth was flat(and some still do).

Paladin does however need a boost in some way, just a nudge of hate controlling power in some form.

Thanks for taking the time to read this.

[edit] just re-read a friends post on this subject, his proposed adjustments might be just the nudge paladin needs. I'd suggest reading "One Knight's advice" before bringing this thread any further.[/edit]

[brayen]

Having read through the entirety of this thread.......
I will speak from my experience of being a pld main in abyssea.
With strong DDs and nukers, it is possible to maintain hate on paladin if done correctly for a time(details have been discussed on numerous forums and in guides for a long time). The problem occurs when others reach the emnity cap and repeatedly produce spike damage or a mob decays hate at a ridiculous rate. Vorpal blade spam in place of atonement spam seems to work ok between 1000<3500(more 1-3k on serious nms), it does something towards balancing this out. Chant du cygne seems to be more consistant damagewise, producing 2-6k(more 1-5k on serious NMs) from a pld set up well for it.

Run the figures for mnk/nin and pld/nin tp feeding a mob, pld will feed less tp over the same ammount of time unless the mnk makes real effort to stack subtle blow.

The best idea I've seen here has been raising the VE cap slightly for paladin as a trait.
A native provoke ability and a second flash ability come a close joint second.
Increasing paladins damage output coming third.

My suggestion would be to:
1) give paladin fencer as a native job trait.
2) give enmity bonus as a native job trait as described in an earlier post.
3) add a migawari: ichi style ability or job trait or spell with an equal effect/duration/recast.
4) allow paladin the same kind of bonus from stats that 2handed weapon users enjoy for sword only.
5) a new cure spell for pld rdm and sch averaging about 1k.
6) a new divine magic based spell that will cause non-elemental magic damage.
7) repairing atonements damage, and raising it's damage cap.
8) some sort of swift blade damage modifier improvement.

All of the above may sound overpowered, but in practice, only good paladins would succeed from these adjustments. It would require some testing with these in effect.

Addressing other issues found in this post:
1) MNK does not have the same -control- of hate a good paladin has, in or out of abyssea.
2) WAR does not have the same -control- of hate a good paladin has, in or out of abyssea.
3) reguarding the above statements, I am talking about -control- not -generation-.
4) PLD is not useless in abyssea if played well, it covers all the same red triggers warrior does with the exception of scythe(and dagger if subbing war).
5) whatever they try will be adjusted if it is overpowered or underpowered.

Finally, I would like to point out that this is based of my experience doing regular events in abyssea and numerous pickup runs. I don't intend to belittle MNK or WAR as a tank as such, just point out that whilest popular oppinion is against PLD lately that doesn't mean it's right: people used to think the earth was flat(and some still do).

Paladin does however need a boost in some way, just a nudge of hate controlling power in some form.

Thanks for taking the time to read this.

[edit] just re-read a friends post on this subject, his proposed adjustments might be just the nudge paladin needs. I'd suggest reading "One Knight's advice" before bringing this thread any further.[/edit]

I am going to disagree with most of what you are saying. 1k cure would be overpowered indeed something in the 650ish range would at least more balanced but not the biggest issue, i mean if we get a 1k cure w/ the right gear you are looking at 1200+, we are not looking to be a healer on pld at least, if anything i would say add something along the lines of what solace does to cures in where it helps mitigate some damage after a cure and/or generate more hate. pld can not hold better hate then mnk or war (these are only other jobs i can speak for that you made mention of) at the moment i am not sure where this is even coming from. Also a divine magic that does non elemental magic seems absurd lol maybe bring holy 2 out and make it actually worth something(i don't know enemity based dmg or something lol) unlike holy (totally worse spell i have ever seen) would be more sensible.

Personally i can't see boost pld damage without making it absurdly powerful job, which is why my earlier input was revolving on supporting dmg intake to the PLD's pt. The ideas of pld taking hate form his pt would not yield much of anything as 1 ws will easily rip hate right back, just how a thf at best makes a mob flinch and look away for a second before all hate is back to cap(in or out of abyssea)