[dev1049] New weapon skills

[Kalilla]

Being lazy does not provide grounds to exempt Empyrean weaponskills from your listings. They are the superior weaponskills in most or every situation, there's no getting around that. Many to most players do in fact have at least one Empyrean weapon, the lazy minority is not a model to work an entire argument around.

Empyrean weaponskills are the standard.

Big ass lie. Huge majority of people does not have an Empyrean.

What you YOU smoking? Emp. weaponskills are "NOT" the standard... get off your box-cart, your highness...

Look, if you and your peers can't take a week or less to create an easy to make weapon that isn't my problem. Saying that 60% or more of people have an empyrean weapon would not be far from the truth. Your linkshell might not, and that's likely because your linkshell is lazy. The biggest gimplets could complete an empyrean in a respectable timeframe. Your inability to do so still does not exempt Empyrean weaponskills from being compared to the merit weaponskills. The majority of people do in fact have at least one empyrean weapon, and if not an empyrean then a gimpyrean. If it isn't related to how good or bad they are in comparison, perhaps he shouldn't have said how good and bad they are in comparison or perhaps only compared the club weaponskill since that's the only one that has been directly compared to an older weaponskill by a community rep. It's also worth noting that he wasn't comparing the club weaponskill to hexa strike btw, he was saying that SAM has a bunch of great weaponskills compared to other jobs.

I wasn't aware that 300,000 empyreans have been made now. It's more like maybe 10,000 people own them across all servers and have 2 or more each. I know it's easy to look at figures and go, oh, there's 50,000 empyreans out there. 50,000 people must own them. No. You underestimate a person's will to farm shit when they want said shit, and you overestimate other person's ability to jump in a group to farm or 2 box another character. I have 2 right now. I WILL have 4 soon, possibly as many as 6 when it's all said and done with. And I'm one person. Who doesn't go through linkshells to get them. And you, whoever you may happen to be, think empyrean weapons are standard? More common than relics by like a factor of 5 does not equate to "standard"

Magian weapons are still the standard, with ex/ra from NM behind it, and maybe MAYBE Empyreans have AH stuff beat out by now. Good grief I get such kicks watching people try to make this point time and again about Empyreans being standard. A couple people spew that non sense off here and there in their shells and on internet forums and everyone starts to believe it. Reminds me of theory crafting or worse, theory TH. Theory Empyreans, enjoy it while you can. You're just a fad, playa.

If you're too lazy to make at least 1 easy weapon, well, what are you doing?

Or it could be that you're just ignorant, "playa". Empyrean weapons are standard. They are thus one of the standards on which to judge other weapons and weaponskills; a casual jog through Port Jeuno or Ru'lude Gardens will turn up more empyreans per capita than your ridiculous estimations.

If they can't find a single other person to make their weapon with, then they have bigger problems than weaponskills to contend with.

I'm not sure why the empy talk started up, but I support Proth on this one.

They are the standard, before abyssea did you see SE use relics in all their screenshots? No, they used standard gear and mostly AF1/AF2 at the time.

When you see screenshots since abyssea what do you see? Full empy armor with an empy weapon. Go look if you must, I've read the news for years and I know this to be a fact.

With that point alone I think they are standard. SE is showing them off because they are easy to get.

I myself have one, club, and did I need a linkshell to make it? No I did not.

I did mine with just 1 other person, duo'ing a weapon is very common.

I can't defend people who say that it isn't standard, because that just isn't true. Anything that easy has to be the standard, if you don't have one I question how much you've actually tried.

If you don't have one, then I would like to hear your reason. It's been over a year since abyssea started, what have you been doing this whole time? Really, this is a serious question. If you weren't making a weapon what the hell did you do for 12 months? Quit?

Most people who have an empy didn't use their LS to make one, didn't make ls members slaves. It takes some hard work but nothing huge. They are very easy to make and in my opinion not that much harder than any other elemental trial.

If you look at it that way then are magian staffs not the standard for mages? I will laugh if you don't think so. Any self-respecting mage will have at least 1 fully upgraded magian staff.

If you don't even have a fully upgraded trial in anything then please leave this discussion now.

[Tamoa]

Back to the point of the thread itself, with that said, honestly, half of these weapon skills don't even need to be the best, they just need to be at least good enough to where non-empyrean melee can actually make use of them, because as it is currently, the ones that are frowned upon currently that people are clearly not happy with don't even beat the weapon skills we've used years upon years ago that not only deal 75-esqe damage still (low tier), but are the clear reason as to why everyone's funneled themselves into jobs like warrior and monk approximately over the last year and a half (but for good reason of course).

Gear standards have certainly been revolutionized over the last little while, so why not weapon skills as well?

This. Should be rather obvious really.

[SpankWustler]

Gear standards have certainly been revolutionized over the last little while, so why not weapon skills as well?

This succinctly sums up the thoughts and feelings of almost everyone in this topic very well.

These weaponskills have totally new animations, really great ones. We can only upgrade 3 of them to full. Heaven help any poor soul hoping to get a decent result with one of them not upgraded to full, because after a long and hard look, it turns out literally all they have going for them are the 100% stat modifiers.

Not a single person testing a single weaponskill has stumbled onto a bonus or unexpected boon yet. They do what they say on the tin or worse. It's a dark and dead-armadillo-sprinkled road of attack penalties and <1 fTP values on additional hits. Apparently there's an attack bonus on Shijin Spiral, but at this point, I wonder if that just translates to the absence of an attack penalty.

So, again, here are these gorgeous new weaponskills of which we can only fully utilize three. It turns out they're actually mediocre, though. Why?

[Arcon]

I can't defend people who say that it isn't standard, because that just isn't true. Anything that easy has to be the standard [..]

I believe this is what Prothscar and IronPandemonium think as well. It's simply a misinformed definition of what the word "standard" means. At least you didn't insist on the "fact" (as Prothscar so mistakenly called it) that most people have it.

It's actually very common in the endgame scene for people to lose touch with reality. It was the same at 75. People would go on about what the "standard" was ("if you don't have a Haste +6% belt gtfo of my thread") and try to impose their ridiculously absurd perception of normality on the masses. I will admit to this: many people actively participating in current endgame have an Empyrean weapon. If it's most I can't say, I believe so, but I don't have exact numbers, so I won't make ridiculous claims like other people so callously do. But people seem to forget that there's a massive number of people who don't even have one full +2 set (there's even people who don't have a single +2 item). Some of them have even started making some weapons, but the game doesn't come as easy to everyone. There's still people wiping to Durinn. There's still people who don't have the Atma of the Razed Ruins. And all of these cases are very likely to be a subset of the people who don't have an Empyrean weapon. This game isn't all as hardcore as you are.

[..] if you don't have one I question how much you've actually tried.

That's also the thing. Many people haven't even tried yet. At all.

Most people who have an empy didn't use their LS to make one, didn't make ls members slaves. It takes some hard work but nothing huge. They are very easy to make and in my opinion not that much harder than any other elemental trial.

Then your opinion doesn't seem to be very informed. I have both Empyreans and elemental trial weapons and they're worlds apart. Most Empyreans you actually cannot solo, as in, impossible. Try Glavoid solo and see how far you get. I suppose you could pull it to some godforsaken corner of Tahrongi Canyon and zombie it, hoping no one comes by and claims it off you. But that's all you can do. And that's also the bottleneck many people face, not wanting (or getting) to involve others in helping them.

I can already see people responding with "make friends" or "get a WHM mule" or some poor soul will probably even think "suck less". And if you think those are valid suggestions, then I have to seriously doubt your mental capacity and you should leave this discussion now.

Edit:
Forgot to say what I came here to say. Happens when stuff gets derailed. I fully agree with the sentiment that standards have increased. I fully agree that it was a completely inane reason SE offered us for nerfing Realmrazer. They need to stop being afraid of the past and move on. Best example are relics. If they could introduce Empyrean weapons without issues, that completely trump the weapons that have been dominating the game for the better part of a decade, then they shouldn't have a problem with one single weapon skill becoming somewhat outdated.

[IronPandemonium]

Try Glavoid solo and see how far you get.

[doctorugh]

So, again, here are these gorgeous new weaponskills of which we can only fully utilize three. It turns out they're actually mediocre, though. Why?

There's still time put these last three in the trash heap, you're not giving SE enough credit.

I would have rather them use this forum to vote on the potential nerfs for each WS, since SE planned on nerfing them all anyways. It would at least seem like they were interacting with the community that plays the game.

[Zumi]

What sad is basically what the game has turned into anyone who is willing to pay for another account and level whm or has an account of someone who quit, pretty much can have the best WSs in the game since they can easily duo box any empyrean weapon.

SE decides that 100 merit new weapon skills should be worse then pre 75 WS. Yea that doesn't make any sense. If you going to spend 100 merits on something it should be at least better then everything pre 75.

[Prothscar]

I believe this is what Prothscar and IronPandemonium think as well. It's simply a misinformed definition of what the word "standard" means. At least you didn't insist on the "fact" (as Prothscar so mistakenly called it) that most people have it.

It's actually very common in the endgame scene for people to lose touch with reality. It was the same at 75. People would go on about what the "standard" was ("if you don't have a Haste +6% belt gtfo of my thread") and try to impose their ridiculously absurd perception of normality on the masses. I will admit to this: many people actively participating in current endgame have an Empyrean weapon. If it's most I can't say, I believe so, but I don't have exact numbers, so I won't make ridiculous claims like other people so callously do. But people seem to forget that there's a massive number of people who don't even have one full +2 set (there's even people who don't have a single +2 item). Some of them have even started making some weapons, but the game doesn't come as easy to everyone. There's still people wiping to Durinn. There's still people who don't have the Atma of the Razed Ruins. And all of these cases are very likely to be a subset of the people who don't have an Empyrean weapon. This game isn't all as hardcore as you are.



That's also the thing. Many people haven't even tried yet. At all.



Then your opinion doesn't seem to be very informed. I have both Empyreans and elemental trial weapons and they're worlds apart. Most Empyreans you actually cannot solo, as in, impossible. Try Glavoid solo and see how far you get. I suppose you could pull it to some godforsaken corner of Tahrongi Canyon and zombie it, hoping no one comes by and claims it off you. But that's all you can do. And that's also the bottleneck many people face, not wanting (or getting) to involve others in helping them.

I can already see people responding with "make friends" or "get a WHM mule" or some poor soul will probably even think "suck less". And if you think those are valid suggestions, then I have to seriously doubt your mental capacity and you should leave this discussion now.

Edit:
Forgot to say what I came here to say. Happens when stuff gets derailed. I fully agree with the sentiment that standards have increased. I fully agree that it was a completely inane reason SE offered us for nerfing Realmrazer. They need to stop being afraid of the past and move on. Best example are relics. If they could introduce Empyrean weapons without issues, that completely trump the weapons that have been dominating the game for the better part of a decade, then they shouldn't have a problem with one single weapon skill becoming somewhat outdated.

If they haven't tried or put forth the effort its their own damn fault. FFXI isn't rocket science. Their inability to grasp simple game mechanics is their own issue that they could easily deal with without being "hardcore". You don't have to be "hardcore" to finish an empyrean weapon. At all. You're over inflating the difficulty of acquiring a simple weapon, and I'll pretend I didn't see you mention Empyrean armor.

Again, you're coming up with an excuse for nothing except being lazy. There is no other way to turn it. This is easy content when it comes to MMOs, or video games in general. It's a grind, nothing more nothing less, a grind that takes minimal amounts of effort to complete and moderate amount of time if done casually.

You need no more than two people for every empyrean weapon, barring possibly Bhukis because he can be annoying at points. It may be difficult for you and a select few others, and you may wipe to Durinn as do a select few others, but that is the minority. Not everyone is pants-on-head retarded or lazy.

@Devs: Buff Requiescat please. Your reasoning is absolutely ridiculous and it is nearly useless in its current form. Same can be said for all but about two of these weaponskills.

[Economizer]

So, again, here are these gorgeous new weaponskills of which we can only fully utilize three. It turns out they're actually mediocre, though. Why?

I feel that the Dark Knight WS just being a utility rather then a Damage WS wouldn't be as bad if only people could merit all the WS. I feel that the Sword WS being a situational rather then a damage WS wouldn't be as bad if only people could merit all the WS. I could go on, but the main point is this - SE don't limit the amount of weapon skills people can fully merit.

As a bit of a side note, I understand the idea behind having White Mage be the club master, but as always, if that's what they want, they could just give White Mage a better WS then Realmrazer if they unlock Realmrazer, and keep Realmrazer at its current level. Less disappointment for everyone, and the new WS can just use the same animation. Or Hexa Strike could get a quest to buff it or just a buff that only high level White Mages can do.

[Prothscar]

Would also put forth the motion that if they plan on leaving these weaponskills as useless messes, at least let us merit every single one fully and not just limit us to three weaponskills max.