[dev1049] New weapon skills

[Afania]

Nope. you sorta missed the point, but I'm no master telecaster, so it may be my fault.

Most people don't have empy weapons.

Everyone will have 3 of these new WS which are for the most part close to empy WS.

No one will want you coming on a job that doesn't have 1 of the 2.



Some people have a bunch of Jobs that they have dumped millions of merits / gear /time into. They shouldn't suddenly be considered gimp because they can't put 5 merits into them.

So you already realized being "gimp" or not is depending on other player's level. If everyone has AF3, you're using perle, then you're "gimp". If only 2% of player has AF3, and you're using perle, then you're just average.

So you have 3 merit WS, and every other player also have 3, idk what's so gimp about it. The amount of merit WS you have isn't lower than other ppl.

And no, merit WS won't make a very big difference about able to play a job or not. I often join /shout VW pt on BLU, and as long as there's a BLU spot open I can pretty much get in easily. I dont have empy, and everytime when I joined entire alliance has empy as long as it's DD or PLD. Compare with other player in alliance, I'm "gimp", since my gear lv is slightly on lower tier. But that doesn't stop me from playing BLU, because the alliance needs it.

If your WAR doesn't have enough merit to get merit WS, you will still get invited if the situation needs WAR and they can't find other ppl. And not having merit WS doesn't make it gimp either, since the amount of merit WS you have isn't lower than other ppl. The pt may try to find Ukko WAR first, and they may not be able to find one because not everyone have empy. Then they start to look for merit WS WAR, and they may still not be able to find one because no one merit that WS. In the end they will have to settle for the one without, then everyone with WAR leveled and no merit WS will have same chance to get in to the pt. If everyone all have merit WS on every job, chances are you still won't gain extra chance to play your WAR because other WAR has it too.

Merit WS should be like empy WS, that it offers you extra advantage when trying to get in to the pt. But if the situation really needs X job, there's no way you don't get to play it just because you don't have the WS. Of course, other ppl with that WS may get more chance than you to play that job, but it's also the same with empy. Other ppl with empy has more chance to play that job than you as well. You're only assuming that everyone can get merit WS therefore everyone else will have that WS, but that's not necessary true since not everyone will merit same WS as you do. Merit WS will NOT become a standard to judge gimp or not because not everyone has them all, period. If merit WS is a standard, then so does empy because a large amount of population has it(you can't deny that)

[SpankWustler]

Specific jobs are very rarely needed outside of White Mage and sometimes Paladin, unless it's related to procs. In fact, every single example you gave seemed to be related to procs.

Actually, let's take that further. I wonder how many people will feel the same way about being limited to 15 points across the board if these new weaponskills become part of various and sundry proc systems looming in the future. It's been said such systems won't be in all new content, and you know what that means...

They cost too many merits to switch around like spells or abilities, and I doubt very many people would merit some of them for any reason other than making a !! pop up over a monster's head. I think that kind of situation would suck rather vehemently.

At the very least, I think natively learning the horrid 20% modifer version or something similar would be really nice.

Other than that, all I got from those four paragraphs is that you're a masochist who enjoys finding Voidwatch procs on Blue Mage.

[Malamasala]

Specific jobs are very rarely needed outside of White Mage and sometimes Paladin, unless it's related to procs. In fact, every single example you gave seemed to be related to procs.

That is the theory. It is based on people not caring how long it takes to fight, or if they might lose, or if the monster has good drops. As soon as we all play according to this, jobs won't matter. Until then, the only jobs that count are the best ones, which are about 4-6 jobs total.

[FrankReynolds]

So you already realized being "gimp" or not is depending on other player's level. If everyone has AF3, you're using perle, then you're "gimp". If only 2% of player has AF3, and you're using perle, then you're just average.

So you have 3 merit WS, and every other player also have 3, idk what's so gimp about it. The amount of merit WS you have isn't lower than other ppl.

This is the part I have a problem with. I honestly didn't read the rest because I'm getting bored of it.

First part is correct. Not having the baseline gear makes you a gimp.

Second part is just..... Look... if everyone can only be good at three jobs, that is a problem.

[Economizer]

I could reiterate why you are completely wrong and your fear of people being able to merit everything somehow making you a worse player is inherently wrong, or I could just base my entire reply on pointing out how horrifically wrong your reply is. I think it is childish, but considering that I'd just be repeating my unchallenged statements again and nothing you said is even new or challenges anything I said at this point, my choices are either silence or pointing this out.

I tried silence, but this level of... for a politer way to say it, wrong, is too much to bear in silence.

Now after merit WS come out, player B decided to focus on DRG SAM BST, 3 of his favorite job, so he merit polearm/GK/axe. Player A of course merit club. Now player A's WHM is a lot more different than player B's. It offers unique value by having a very pimp WS and do decent dmg when needed. Now LS may invite him to events just because he offers extra unique value other WHMs doesn't have and it may be situationally useful. Does player B still get to play WHM? Yes, when player A isn't around and pt needs WHM. But player A's WHM is no longer replaceable. Does that make player B a gimp player and useless to LS? No. Player B still has 20 jobs, and still offers a lot of jobs when pt needs it, he is just not good at everything.

I'll admit it. I'm going to be the White Mage capping club out. I figure you are trying to appeal to me or something.

Except the situation you give is completely a joke. Sort of having Mjollnir, the Reigning High God-King of One Handed Weapons, in my possession (and even then), there is absolutely no reason any party is going to consider letting me melee on a mob, even if I can perform all my previous duties and melee at the same time.

I don't even know how you came to the conclusion that there is a situation outside of proc systems where Realmrazer is going to have parties even remotely considering having it merited as a plus for their White Mage to have, and if it is in a proc system, that means the Warrior begrudgingly has it and every other WS he can use 1/5'd, defeating the purpose, and just giving another reason why this whole allocation limit business a terrible, terrible mistake.

Considering how out of touch your statement is, I cannot even phantom how you could possibly really believe this, and I have to honestly wonder if you are actually taking this seriously, or if you are deliberately fishing for issue, or trying to stir up emotions.

I wonder why I am the only one to point this out so far... perhaps that nobody is reading your comments anymore, because they have more wisdom then I at knowing when to cut their losses.

[Afania]

This is the part I have a problem with. I honestly didn't read the rest because I'm getting bored of it.

First part is correct. Not having the baseline gear makes you a gimp.

Second part is just..... Look... if everyone can only be good at three jobs, that is a problem.

Since you didn't read the rest, I guess you missed the most important point in the post, that merit WS won't become the baseline of the job because not everyone will have it on that job.


And second part.......I already stress this over and over, but I guess you won't get it then. Allowing a player lose focus on one(or few) job in a MMORPG does more harm than good. I think That's one of the biggest complain in FFXIV, that there are very little to distinguish between each player.

[FrankReynolds]

Since you didn't read the rest, I guess you missed the most important point in the post, that merit WS won't become the baseline of the job because not everyone will have it on that job.


And second part.......I already stress this over and over, but I guess you won't get it then. Allowing a player lose focus on one(or few) job in a MMORPG does more harm than good. I think That's one of the biggest complain in FFXIV, that there are very little to distinguish between each player.

It is the baseline. You are not getting into any events on jobs with sub par damage. Everyone else will be on the jobs that they have merited ws for. That is the baseline that you will be compared to.

FFXIV sucks on so many different levels that its not even comparable. Forcing a player to only focus on three jobs is not going to make the game better. It's going to force people to sacrifice merits in jobs they like so that they can put them into the jobs that LS and Group leaders and / or the community in general wants them to. IE. I want to put merits into GA right now, but I had to remove them so that I could get Staff red proc. That is lame, although far less severe than say removing a skill entirely.

[brayen]

if you dont believe a merited WS won't become a baseline for all jobs, then you clearly won't ever get it. Maybe you still thinking exping is as hard as getting an empy? News flash it is easier to exp. i am curious at this point how you can be so adamant about limiting players to an amount of jobs...and there was a WHOLE LOT more wrong with ffxiv then some sort of distinction between each player lol not sure if that was a serious point or not. How you think these new Ws which are easily accessed and don't require a whole set of long quests, etc, to get will not be a baseline on DDing is beyond me. And these are not easily changed as mission/quest rewards, this takes a WHOLE lot longer to change from 1 WS to another as you will be making a bunch of trips to MH just to expend your merit points.

..Honestly it is like you are refusing to understand the points everyone has given you, out of curiosity do you even have or care about more then one job of yours?

[Afania]

Specific jobs are very rarely needed outside of White Mage and sometimes Paladin, unless it's related to procs. In fact, every single example you gave seemed to be related to procs.

Actually, let's take that further. I wonder how many people will feel the same way about being limited to 15 points across the board if these new weaponskills become part of various and sundry proc systems looming in the future. It's been said such systems won't be in all new content, and you know what that means...

They cost too many merits to switch around like spells or abilities, and I doubt very many people would merit some of them for any reason other than making a !! pop up over a monster's head. I think that kind of situation would suck rather vehemently.

At the very least, I think natively learning the horrid 20% modifer version or something similar would be really nice.

Other than that, all I got from those four paragraphs is that you're a masochist who enjoys finding Voidwatch procs on Blue Mage.

They shouldn't make merit WS a necessary to have in any event, instead it should be a nice bonus.

I only use blue mage as an example, why brought up all the masochist talk? It's not constructive at all and only seems childish.

I could reiterate why you are completely wrong and your fear of people being able to merit everything somehow making you a worse player is inherently wrong, or I could just base my entire reply on pointing out how horrifically wrong your reply is. I think it is childish, but considering that I'd just be repeating my unchallenged statements again and nothing you said is even new or challenges anything I said at this point, my choices are either silence or pointing this out.

I tried silence, but this level of... for a politer way to say it, wrong, is too much to bear in silence.



I'll admit it. I'm going to be the White Mage capping club out. I figure you are trying to appeal to me or something.

Except the situation you give is completely a joke. Sort of having Mjollnir, the Reigning High God-King of One Handed Weapons, in my possession (and even then), there is absolutely no reason any party is going to consider letting me melee on a mob, even if I can perform all my previous duties and melee at the same time.

I don't even know how you came to the conclusion that there is a situation outside of proc systems where Realmrazer is going to have parties even remotely considering having it merited as a plus for their White Mage to have, and if it is in a proc system, that means the Warrior begrudgingly has it and every other WS he can use 1/5'd, defeating the purpose, and just giving another reason why this whole allocation limit business a terrible, terrible mistake.

Considering how out of touch your statement is, I cannot even phantom how you could possibly really believe this, and I have to honestly wonder if you are actually taking this seriously, or if you are deliberately fishing for issue, or trying to stir up emotions.

I wonder why I am the only one to point this out so far... perhaps that nobody is reading your comments anymore, because they have more wisdom then I at knowing when to cut their losses.

First of all I do not fear being able merit everything will make someone a "worse" player. But I do believe a player focus on one job should gain some kind of advantage that is more than skill or knowledge. And appearantly you disagree, and would rather have everyone all have same level of job and rely on "skill" to make the difference, which is already lacking variety and mostly done by math. Go to an art gallery, look at all the art work, everyone's style is different. Now play FFXI, play with all the NINs or WARs, their play style/gear set won't be too different because it's the optimal set. You really think that's good?

Secondly I didn't use WHM as an example to "appeal" you, I didn't even know what your main job is. And if you think WHM with melee is useless in pt, then may I ask you why you have a set/merit? It's pointless to have, no? Any WHM without a melee set can perform as well as you do no?

I'm going to guess that's because you love WHM more than average, and you wanna play with different aspect of the job. In that case then it's really no different from merit WS, it's a bonus, and not a norm. It's the main reason we can have fun to play our job, rather than grind gear and cap gear, then start doing same thing as other players do. The reason why I will invite a WHM with melee set is more than "oo because his melee is pimp so I can use etttttt". Playing a job should be a process of discovering different value of the job, and gaining other aspect of the job, and look for new optimal ways of beating the content, instead of using 100 gear set that's exactly the same as other ppl and doing same thing as other ppl. Really, what's the point to make WHM melee set if you don't melee and strongly believed that WHM melee is useless? Personally I don't believe WHM melee is entirely useless, but appearantly you'd rather believe it is, I feel sad.

[Koren]

In this case it's 3 weapons, not 3 jobs. You could merit Dagger, Sword and H2H and be set for MNK, PUP, THF, DNC, BLU, PLD and RDM. That's 7 jobs you more or less maxed out right there. A far cry of having to merit each job individually like with job merits. If exp was as slow as it was before Abyssea we probably even relish the fact we could get several jobs finished on the same merits. But with how easy exp flows in, we no longer mind the time it takes to get these things.

I am on the side of obtaining these Weapon Skill naturally, I'm a collector and I love to collect shiny things. I was planning on leveling NIN and whichever other jobs to get the new abilities, but now I'm not encouraged to do so. I made a post a few pages back about leveling into the Weapon Skills like we normally do and have merits to augment them with different additional effects such as Criticals hits, or MP recovery, or some specific buff or debuff, or even a specific Aftermath effect. The potency/activation rate/duration of the augments would be increased with merits.

There's no real reason to argue about the gimp vs not these days. The argument has always been against the guy showing up at merit camps wearing leather armor and level 14 STR rings expecting to kill things with his bronze sword, and we are all aware he is contributing less than the 6 naked players standing next to the Dominion Ops guy. WHMs that haven't exceeded 60 couldn't possibly contribute to a party. The best they can administer is a Cure IV drip.