[dev1049] New weapon skills

[Economizer]

As for defending the interwebs from terrible misinformation, please refer to my signature if your not sure these stupid people exist. :P

That thread is near unreadable... do people understand the concept of cutting down quotes to only contain relevant parts and cutting them into pieces when responding to multiple parts?

[Afania]

First of all, not everyone has a relic/w/e for every job. The more jobs you have leveled, the more silly what you just described sounds. These WS will be expected of any job that you don't have a relic or w/e for by any group leader. More importantly though, I just want things to use my merits on, and options to use on my different jobs. The above was a hypothetical by the way, I have, and I suspect most other people do as well have several different jobs leveled / geared besides the ones listed. I just don't see why you would want to limit someone who has a bunch of different jobs leveled by going "Well, if you don't have an Empyrian for that job, then come on something that you have the merit WS for.".

I don't understand.

A while ago you're saying not having merit WS=gimp, and not playing the job to it's fullest potential. I just offered solution to ungimp it.

Yes you can argue that empyrean WS takes longer to get and not everyone have it etc, but most of the ppl in this game also only has 1~2 empyrean weapon since many ppl doesn't have a lot of play time to get 20 empyrean weapons for 20 job too, and 1~2 empy WS is less than 3 merit WS. In that sense their none-empyrean job are not playing to fullest potential too, I never seen anyone complain on SE forum that empyrean WS should be available to everyone and only takes 1 day to unlock. For me empyrean weapon is also a limit to pretty much 99% of ppl since 99% of ppl won't have time to get them all. A lot of ppl have many DD job leveled/geared and no empy(nor time to do an empy), never seen them QQ. A lot of ppl have multiple job leveled/geared and only play their best job with empy, never seen them QQ that they can't play their none-empy DD too.

You said you're doing an empy, chances are by the time you finish it you won't use merit WS ever again. Merit WS is not there to replace the old WS just like how empy WS isn't there to replace old WS, you should treat merit WS like a bonus, not like a must have.

If you wanna treat it like a must have, I can say empy weapons are must have too, and most ppl doesn't have more than 3. So why QQ about having only 3 merit WS?

[Afania]

It is irrelevant on whether playing a job takes more or less skill then playing the piano, it still takes a set of skills to do. Belittling those skills in favor of gear and merits will only make your playtime empty.

If you think that playing a job is just spamming abilities and spells, then you have no sense of pride in your job. You probably think that someone being able to get the same set of gear you have makes you less good at your job, and I think you'd be right - because your job is not Corsair or whatever FFXI construct you think it is anymore

I don't care about contest and what not, I don't care if someone else has the same thing as I do as long as if that's what he choose to focus and excel at, but I do care if someone else have the same thing for 20 jobs. That forces you to level and play as many jobs as well and not allowed to focus on 3.

You were the one saying you want to play ALL your job to fullest potential and won't miss one single WS in this game, and complained that having 3 merit WS means you can't play everything to fullest potential. And the fact that everyone owning same WS, same set of gear, 10+ job leveled and job change on the fly just erase "whatever FFXI constructed you". Ok, so let's say if there are no limit in merit WS, you have 20 jobs, have 20 merit WS, really played 20 job to fullest potential and master everything, what job are you? What can you be identify as? Are there any way other ppl can gain more identification than you by making their job standing out? They can't, no one can beat someone with everything mastered. FFXI doesn't construct you into anything, after playing all 20 job to fullest potential and got every WS in this game. You're the one with empty existence, with no identification. What are identification? One aspect of you is better than average, another aspect is worse than average, that's what makes ppl unique. You can't master all aspect, that will make you an empty existence.

With limit into 3, you make choices, and by going on one path you give up another one. That just makes the game little more interesting and offered more strategic value in terms of character development. No one is the master of everything and get everything in this game. You give up something, you gain something else on other aspect, I just don't understand what's so bad about it. If you're really worried about your job without merit WS will be "gimp" and not in fullest potential, go get an empy and problem solved. I play BLU a fk tones and joined VW pt just fine if they have a BLU spot open, I don't have an empy too, and never have a problem to join. I'm probably not playing it to fullest potential because I lack empy WS, and I never have problem with that.

Seriously idk what's the butt hurt all about, if you're afraid of not playing the job to fullest potential and master your job without merit WS, go get an empy, if you don't have empy or don't want to spend time to get it, chances are you're not playing the job to fullest potential already.

And inb4 skill can make up with gear/WS difference. If you think skill is that important that it can make up with the gear/WS difference, then you just get even less reason to butthurt because you can make up your lack of merit WS with skill.

[brayen]

You are fairly slow if you can't see the problem with needing to undertake the task of empy/relic/mythic as a solution to rendering your job inferior. Fact is there is a base line on what is to be expected from x Job. Where as once you had things like rampage, you now have the new Axe WS which is showing up as being better, and so on for all the weapon classes. Saying "oh you can't maximize a job then go get an empy" is downright insulting as a response.

[FrankReynolds]

I don't understand.

A while ago you're saying not having merit WS=gimp, and not playing the job to it's fullest potential. I just offered solution to ungimp it.

Yes you can argue that empyrean WS takes longer to get and not everyone have it etc, but most of the ppl in this game also only has 1~2 empyrean weapon since many ppl doesn't have a lot of play time to get 20 empyrean weapons for 20 job too, and 1~2 empy WS is less than 3 merit WS. In that sense their none-empyrean job are not playing to fullest potential too, I never seen anyone complain on SE forum that empyrean WS should be available to everyone and only takes 1 day to unlock. For me empyrean weapon is also a limit to pretty much 99% of ppl since 99% of ppl won't have time to get them all. A lot of ppl have many DD job leveled/geared and no empy(nor time to do an empy), never seen them QQ. A lot of ppl have multiple job leveled/geared and only play their best job with empy, never seen them QQ that they can't play their none-empy DD too.

You said you're doing an empy, chances are by the time you finish it you won't use merit WS ever again. Merit WS is not there to replace the old WS just like how empy WS isn't there to replace old WS, you should treat merit WS like a bonus, not like a must have.

If you wanna treat it like a must have, I can say empy weapons are must have too, and most ppl doesn't have more than 3. So why QQ about having only 3 merit WS?

Nope. you sorta missed the point, but I'm no master telecaster, so it may be my fault.

Most people don't have empy weapons.

Everyone will have 3 of these new WS which are for the most part close to empy WS.

No one will want you coming on a job that doesn't have 1 of the 2.



Some people have a bunch of Jobs that they have dumped millions of merits / gear /time into. They shouldn't suddenly be considered gimp because they can't put 5 merits into them.

Again, don't get this confused. I have or will have Weapons / WS for all the jobs I'm really into fairly quickly. But if I had different priorities (think melee mage, ranged jobs, Beast Master, Dark, etc.) I would be extremely pissed right now given my setup. As it is, I'm just concerned because I may get into one of those jobs next (corsair is looking really fun ATM).

A whole bunch of other crap 2 posts down..

OK, I have all 20 jobs to 95. I have gone out and earned perfect gear for every one of them. I am now just starting on my quest to build all of the Relics, all of the mythics, and all of the empys. In the mean time, I have put equal effort into all of my jobs. How is limiting me to only 3 cool WS not a problem? (encase you didn't notice I'm doing a hypothetical here. A lot of people won't level all 20, or need all the Relics etc, before they run into an issue with not being able to merit what they want.)

[Afania]

You are fairly slow if you can't see the problem with needing to undertake the task of empy/relic/mythic as a solution to rendering your job inferior. Fact is there is a base line on what is to be expected from x Job. Where as once you had things like rampage, you now have the new Axe WS which is showing up as being better, and so on for all the weapon classes. Saying "oh you can't maximize a job then go get an empy" is downright insulting as a response.

No it's the same thing. Once you had things like Sidewinder, and sidewinder was best bow WS. Then JR showed up, now JR is the best WS. Will your RNG be "inferior" without JR? When you only have enough play time to grind 3 empyrean weapon but have 20 job leveled, will you sacrifice other job's performance to pimp RNG first by grinding JR instead of other weapons?

When you have 20 job leveled, some of the bound suffer if you wanna focus on something. Although FFXI can job change, the core game concept is never about capping 20 jobs. You can lv 20 jobs sure, but some of them will be "inferior". Why? Merit, storyline mission reward choices, limited play time to spend on gears. The game concept allows you to play 20 jobs, but you specilize in one instead of master everything.

You can only pick 1 out of 3 rings from ToAU(although most of them sucked nowadays, but they weren't THAT bad before), melee ring, mage ring, or ranged attack ring. If you pick one you gonna miss another one. That's specilization. You can only pick a few in merit category. If you pick enmity- for your BLM, your PLD is gonna suck. You can only pick 2 augment for add-on reward. If you pick waltz recast time- for your DNC, your BST gonna suck without pet PDT-. The choices was there, as always. SE never allow player to master all 20 jobs at once ever since release, why suddenly act as if it's a big deal.

EDIT: Yes and it's boring if every player with both DNC and BSTs leveled are allowed to obtain 2 add-on armor and do augment for both of their jobs.

[brayen]

You completely and entirely missed my point. Sidewinder is attainable by anyone using archery as a skill(well rng anyways). JR is not(requires huge time sink of 48? or so NMs + 175? items just for lv 90). If that logic is understandable, then you should be able to grasp that the baseline was always sidewinder, if you have JR then you are in a better boat...but not due to choices, but due to time restraint. I hate to burst you bubble but empy is not the norm for everyone on every job. The fact they are limiting how well you can perform at a base level, further pushes any job lacking said skills down even further, meaning even further ostracizing jobs that do not have the empy/merit ws and such.

EDIT: Yes and it's boring if every player with both DNC and BSTs leveled are allowed to obtain 2 add-on armor and do augment for both of their jobs.

lol so then your whole game revolves around what others do/wear? as someone else having something like that is boring for u >.> in either case those armor are readily interchangeable at will and for all intents and purposes are not unlocking anything new for said jobs(small edit: this goes for 100% of armor btw).

[FrankReynolds]

You completely and entirely missed my point. Sidewinder is attainable by anyone using archery as a skill(well rng anyways). JR is not(requires huge time sink of 48? or so NMs + 175? items just for lv 90). If that logic is understandable, then you should be able to grasp that the baseline was always sidewinder, if you have JR then you are in a better boat...but not due to choices, but due to time restraint. I hate to burst you bubble but empy is not the norm for everyone on every job. The fact they are limiting how well you can perform at a base level, further pushes any job lacking said skills down even further, meaning even further ostracizing jobs that do not have the empy/merit ws and such.

I should just delete my posts and quote yours. I think the egg nog is talking too much in mine. :P

[Amador]

I like to play multiple jobs, it keeps things fresh. It would be nice if there wasn't a 3 WS Cap, due to the reason that most people this late in the game play a lot more than just 3 jobs.

I say 3, because in getting all 15 weapon skills, you're quite frankly just wasting merits. The weapon skills are terrible at level 1. So, realistically, it's 5/5 or nothing.

That aside, it's not as if they're cheap. 100 merits, even being able to hold 30 at a time is a bit of a chore. Even in an Abyssea burn party it still means having to go dump merits, go back and rebuild your lights and experience point level then rinsing and repeating 4 times just for 1 Weapon Skill at 5/5. Now if you do that same process times 15, it's quite a chore.

Now as far as the whole Relic/Mythic/Empyrean deal, those weapons offer a lot more than just a simple damage boost. So saying that these merit-able weapon skills define a job, and or limit a job to being gimp or not for not having one or the other is silly. If anything that's place for the weapons. You can use these weapons skills with a level 1 weapon, that doesn't change regardless. Relic/Mythic/Empyreans are meant to lead in damage through the utility in which they offer. As for the weapon skills, they're meant to be pretty strong it's expected they are level 99 weapon skills or rather level 96 weapon skills. Isn't that peculiar?

As a career Dragoon I'm inclined to Max Stardiver. As a Paladin and Blue Mage enthusiast, I am inclined to level Sword. The 3rd is undecided as I have to pick and choose between what I want. So, I think they should remove that silly little limit cap, and allow those who are willing to grind through that lovely 1,500,000 Experience.

[Afania]

You completely and entirely missed my point. Sidewinder is attainable by anyone using archery as a skill(well rng anyways). JR is not(requires huge time sink of 48? or so NMs + 175? items just for lv 90). If that logic is understandable, then you should be able to grasp that the baseline was always sidewinder, if you have JR then you are in a better boat...but not due to choices, but due to time restraint. I hate to burst you bubble but empy is not the norm for everyone on every job. The fact they are limiting how well you can perform at a base level, further pushes any job lacking said skills down even further, meaning even further ostracizing jobs that do not have the empy/merit ws and such.



lol so then your whole game revolves around what others do/wear? as someone else having something like that is boring for u >.> in either case those armor are readily interchangeable at will and for all intents and purposes are not unlocking anything new for said jobs(small edit: this goes for 100% of armor btw).

If empy is not for every job, then so does merit WS, it's not for every job as well, idk what's the difference. If you have the merit WS, great, you gain the advantage, if you don't, then you can still play your job if your pt happened to need that job. If situation needs a MNK, and if they can't find empy/merit WS MNK, they will still invite MNK without them. I invited many MNK during Abyssea era without BB/nyzul WS, just because I can't find a better one. If someone else in the pt happened to have an empy MNK, chances are you can't play MNK even with merit WS as well.

And yes you can change mission reward, and you can also change your merit WS, it's not like you pick one then you stuck with it for rest of your life. You just require some effort that's more than clicking a job change button to change it(like mission reward) that's all.

Yes it's boring if everyone lost it's uniqueness, I can't stress this enough.

You will always be the cookie cutter, because you foolishly think that some piece of hard to get gear gear or illogical merit limitation will make you any different. It doesn't. You can't be geared or merited to be any more unique from anyone else playing you job in the best gear loadout, but you can care about what you do. This will always make you stand out, even if you aren't the one wearing the best gear or using the best merit loadout for your job.

Let me just do one example, if player A has 1 job leveled, WHM 95, but he is the most dedicated WHM on this server.
Player B has all job 95. Both player spend same amount of time doing research on their jobs, and have almost all the best gear on both jobs. And both player has same amount of play time/resources. In terms of gears, both players are on same level, since most of the good gears are from Abyssea and doesn't take very long to obtain. However since player A focus on one job, he is a bit more knowledgeable and skilled than player B, he one of the best WHM on this server. But player B can still perform at least 90%~95% as good as player A by watching other ppl plays and read info on internet.

Now both player wants to join an event LS, but this LS only have one spot open. If you're LS leader, who're you gonna take?

It may depend on what LS needs, but I believe most of the LS leader would rather pick player B than A. Why? Player B offers way more than A ever can to a LS. You don't need a "best" WHM to clear most of the stuff, a WHM has 95% of performance can get it done just fine. But player B has way more different job to offer and way more competitant. And player A can't make it up with 5% of extra skill level.

Now after merit WS come out, player B decided to focus on DRG SAM BST, 3 of his favorite job, so he merit polearm/GK/axe. Player A of course merit club. Now player A's WHM is a lot more different than player B's. It offers unique value by having a very pimp WS and do decent dmg when needed. Now LS may invite him to events just because he offers extra unique value other WHMs doesn't have and it may be situationally useful. Does player B still get to play WHM? Yes, when player A isn't around and pt needs WHM. But player A's WHM is no longer replaceable. Does that make player B a gimp player and useless to LS? No. Player B still has 20 jobs, and still offers a lot of jobs when pt needs it, he is just not good at everything.

If you wanna choose to have every job, fine, but it's not really fair that a player plays every job is more useful than player who focus on one job. Both players are great players, player A gets club WS but doesn't make player A better than B. It only makes A's WHM better than B's, but B still has a lot of other aspect to offer. However if B gets every WS, then A no longer has it's own advantage by focusing on that job.

You can keep saying skill can make every player different, but really, in the end skill doesn't make a whole world of difference, unlike playing piano irl. If you read parse result, a dedicated DRK with every best gear and Cala probably gonna parse similar to a DRK(with 5 other DD job leveled) with every best gear and Cala, since most of the optimal sets of gears are on the internet already and you just have to swap them correctly.

It is just necessary to distinguish every player, just like every other MMO. Having skill difference isn't enough. Although you can job change, this game never allow players to master everything since day1, it's just like other MMORPGs. At lv 75 era everyone is different because gears takes months to years to obtain, lving to 75 takes months to years too. So most of the player only have enough playtime to focus on one, a PLD with aegis and ares probably not gonna wear that tier of gear on 10 other jobs too. Now with many ppl finish empy/+2 and even VW bodies in months, you pretty much have to rely on skill only(which doesn't make a whole world of difference in this game for ppl that bother to do research) to stand out if you want to focus on one job instead of 10.

If you think making player different with merit is stupid, then offer other suggestion for players to stand out on different job and create uniqueness then.

What I can think of:
1.Make gears takes months to years to obtain like it used to be so players can only pimp 1~3 jobs.....but do you want that? I highly doubt it, and I doubt most of the player base wants old FFXI back as well.

2.Make this game a whole lot more complicated like rocket science so skill/knowlege actually make more difference. You need to study for years to truely understand a job fully.

And obviously, this is even more stupid than limit with merit, this is just a game.

3. The easiest way is to limit with merit/gear rewards that you can only pick one(or three), that's the most effective, and fast way to get the result.