One Tank Job Out of 20 Is Bad Game Design

[Monchat]

This is my final straw for you, apparently your stupidity knows no bounds. Just ecasue you don't NEED a PLD in voidwatch, doesn't mean that it's 'no more useful in voidwatch'. Voidwatch requires a tank that can keep hate without dealing too much damage during the proccing stage. That, you incompetent fool, is paladin.

Finally time to add you to ignore list methinks.

I think you are the ignorant one. A DD tank can stop dding while procing...

[Alhanelem]

A DD tank can stop dding

One would sort of expect that if a "DD tank" stops DDing, they'll therefore stop tanking.

Yes, it's not that simple, but I still did a doubletake when I read that....

[Babekeke]

One would sort of expect that if a "DD tank" stops DDing, they'll therefore stop tanking.

Yes, it's not that simple, but I still did a doubletake when I read that....

Precisely. Especially if it's a DD job without hate tools like provoke (eg mnk/nin)

[MarkovChain]

If pld tank come /war monk too just saying.

[Winrie]

If pld tank come /war monk too just saying.

Bad english design.

[Zagen]

If pld tank come /war monk too just saying.

/WAR has VE hate tools not CE hate tools. When you're taking hits you lose CE meaning you want CE hate generating tools like Cure Spells, the VE is less important. If VE mattered MNK would have Boost spamming as a hate argument.

[Greatguardian]

(Major edit)

I feel like I might be jumping the gun here, so I'll back up a bit. I feel like you're personally addressing me because you see my character set with main job as PUP. I'm not asking that the jobs I want to play be able to win at everything. But every job should be useful for winning at *something* meaningful. Any job that isn't reasonably part of a sound winning strategy for one or more pieces of endgame content is just extra baggage that shouldn't be there in the first place.

I'm not judging the difficulty of an event based on whether or not PUP can win at it. I hope that's not what your thinking, and I also hope you're not subtly trying to pick on me here. Maybe you can clear this up for me.

No one's "Picking on you". I just pick up very specific trends that you seem to follow every time you get into a posting binge like this. When a job that you like, typically Pup or Smn or any "Unpopular job" which would encompass these, comes under fire from the community you will stand up and become as defensive as possible - to the point where you often contradict yourself or stumble over your own logic - in order to preserve your job's "pride".

All jobs do not need to be useful at everything. That is why we have Mog Houses and the ability to change jobs. All jobs are good at something. The difference lies in the artificial value of those strengths as dictated by the community. If Abyssea is more "popular" than some BCNMs, then Ninja will be more popular than Beastmaster or Summoner. That does not mean that Ninja is anywhere near as valuable as a Summoner in some BCNMs, but simply that no one particularly cares about BCNMs.

FFXI's dynamic job system was designed make changing jobs as much a tactical element of gameplay as how you actually fight the monster. You don't see people throwing 5 Warriors at Lorbulcrud and coming out on top, do you? The game is designed in such a way that teamwork and job setups are as essential to winning a battle as the battle itself. When the difficulty of monsters and battlefields is assessed, it is done so assuming that the players have arranged themselves in the most effective manner possible - because that is the smart thing to do.

If people want to add artificial difficulty by bringing Summoners and Dark Knights to Abyssea, they're welcome to it. But that doesn't make Abyssea hard. It just means that they are adding artificial difficulty to an otherwise easy event.

If making things more difficult makes it more fun for you, by all means do it. However, that does not make the content hard. It just means that you are willing to make it harder on yourself in order to have more fun. Fun is good. Keep it up. But you can't, at the same time, turn around and say that the content is not easy. It is easy. You just have to change jobs.

[Alhanelem]

That is why we have Mog Houses and the ability to change jobs. All jobs are good at something.

You say this a lot yet you also frequently call it into question. And No- Every job SHOULD be useful for something. If it's not useful, then it shouldn't exist.

If making things more difficult makes it more fun for you, by all means do it. However, that does not make the content hard.

No, of course it doesn't. But you still haven't answered the question of what DOES make content hard. I can only say for sure that something isn't as hard as it should be when it was clearly designed to be fought by a larger group but gets beaten by one or two players.

If people want to add artificial difficulty by bringing Summoners and Dark Knights to Abyssea

Bringing <insert job here> shouldn't be adding "artificial difficulty" as long as each key role of a well-formed group (e.g. tank, damage, support) is in some way filled by each person present. If bringing <insert job here> is a general liability (not a specific liability, e.g. bringing black mages to a fight against something that's magic immune), then that job is fundamentally flawed and needs to be fixed.

That does not mean that Ninja is anywhere near as valuable as a Summoner in some BCNMs, but simply that no one particularly cares about BCNMs.

I see it as a problem if the only thing something is percieved to be "good" at is something that nobody wants to do.

The developers DO expect that most of us likely have more than one max level job. However, they do NOT expect everyone to have leveled every job when playing high level content. Different jobs can be used in different ways without making things more difficult than they have to be. You don't seem to recognize this. If you need melee damage, any one of several jobs can provide that. One or more of them might do a bit more damage than the others, but generally you're not making a fight "artificially difficult" by bringing something other than the current bandwagon DD. Any of several jobs can provide healing. Many times you can use any of these jobs without making the fight "artificially difficult." Any of a number of jobs are capable of "tanking." Many times you can use any of these jobs without making the fight "artificially difficult." I have 5 jobs to 95. Not all of them, but if you can't reasonably find some way to include me in a fight on any one of those five without making it more "artificially difficult," then I see a problem.

None of us uses different jobs from those in the strategy picked first by elitists with the specific intent of making content harder. The elitist community of today almost never uses any job other than MNK, WAR, WHM, BLM and BRD. That's only 25% of the classes in the game. This doesn't happen in any other MMO I've played. In WoW, DDO, FFXIV, LOTRO, MapleStory, and most other MMOs you don't see a couple jobs always being used and the rest just ignored.

Again: What DOES make something hard? What are the conditions for you? That you can't duo it on MNK and WHM? That it's impossible for the average player?

[Greatguardian]

1) Actually, when looking at a setup for NMs, I'm sure the developers do assume that all players have access to all jobs. Or, rather, that each player has diverse enough of a job spread - or diverse enough of a linkshell - in order to create any feasible job combination.

2) I already said all jobs are good at something. They are all useful for something. The difference is how much the community values that "something" that they are good at. Summoner can solo a hell of a lot better than Warrior, and can deal hate-free TP-less damage from a long range. Does the community care about other people solo'ing? Not really. Is hate-free TP-less damage from a long range important in Abyssea? Nah. In Voidwatch or future hard content? It's purdy nice, bro.

3) What makes content hard? The difficulty of content is assessed based on how difficult the content is to complete using the most effective jobs, most effective strategy, and the intended number of players.

Hard content is content that is difficult or challenging to complete effectively despite using the most effective jobs, most effective strategy, and the full intended allotment of players.

In this sense, most content in FFXI really isn't that hard. AV pre-PD was not "hard", it simply had absolutely ridiculous expectations (64+ players, etc). Any time where you use fewer people than the intended allotment for content, you are making it more difficult than it was intended to be.

Of course, I'm sure this will still boil down to how unreasonable expectation of player skills makes my assessment "unfair" to all of the game's casuals. I consider Voidwatch "harder" content, even though I don't have much trouble with it personally. I know a group of 18 casuals, despite a perfect setup, can still flail around miserably and die in Voidwatch. Abyssea, however, is absolutely nothing if not easy. Throw a group of 18 hamsters at monsters in Abyssea and they will die.

[Alhanelem]

First para: The latter part of it is more accurate. They dont expect all jobs from everyone, only that someone can team up with people who do have the jobs they are missing.