Job Adjustments manifesto Discussion

[Razushu]

I think you are missing his point.

You aren't inviting a summoner to melee. You are inviting him to do summoner things.
His meleeing simply supplies him with a virtually endless MP supply.

The only issue is that White Mage has been able to this since Mystic Boon and the same reason they aren't in the front wacking things for unlimited MP are the same reasons a Summoner shouldn't be...well maybe minus the enmity issues.

A well geared SMN doesn't need to melee to keep MP up indefinitely either.

[Korpg]

A well geared SMN doesn't need to melee to keep MP up indefinitely either.

Exactly white space

[Cream_Soda]

I'd have to say I like your new sig much better than the previous, Korpg

[Korpg]

Old sig was made 2 years ago, so yeah, it was a little dated lol

[Malamasala]

A well geared SMN doesn't need to melee to keep MP up indefinitely either.

On the other hand, a well geared SMN doesn't have to stand in the back either. The whole argument of "doesn't have to" is pretty meaningless when it is something you want to do anyway.

That is like saying "You don't have to win the lottery"... but you wouldn't mind it, would you?

[Razushu]

On the other hand, a well geared SMN doesn't have to stand in the back either. The whole argument of "doesn't have to" is pretty meaningless when it is something you want to do anyway.

That is like saying "You don't have to win the lottery"... but you wouldn't mind it, would you?

I wasn't saying never melee. I was responding to a post that meleeing will give you unlimited MP. Which is like saying "Hey let's go out for steak", while you're eating steak.

[hiko]

That is because they still haven't understood why DRKs are so dumb that they do not sub BLM for it.

sub rdm! . .

[Karinya_of_Carbuncle]

The fact that the collective (or as you call it, "people") decreed our melee as useless in a party is enough of an indication of where we stand. Otherwise we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

I sort of agree, except instead of "decreed", I would say "realized". It was SE who designed the game mechanics that make RDM melee weak and often counterproductive (starting with no A weapons, and B only in weak weapons, but going on with base stats weighted toward casting, no melee-supporting JAs or traits until Composure, and of course the fact that mobs gain full TP from weak attacks).

#2 I agree with as well, but what I would love is something to facilitate off-healing in emergencies. Again, nothing exists for RDM in that regard. At least nothing built into the class to tell the player "this is what you do when you want to heal someone in an emergency".

Um... cast cure spells? What are you looking for, a heal with the casting time of Stun? (Judging from the end of your post, maybe...)

#3 I'll concede on if and only if Refresh is changed to a long duration spell (I'm talking 10 minutes baseline) when the Red Mage is in melee.

It's already 7:30 with Composure, whether you're in melee or not. Of course if you want to have powerful buffs for other party members *and* powerful melee without them interfering with each other... then why would people invite the powerful melee that don't also have powerful buffs? (Why does COR do less damage than RNG? Because it also does other things.)

An alternative would be for Refresh to proc on the party when the RDM uses a weapon skill, with the effect being maintained by the RDM hitting the target - only applicable while in the front lines, of course. Cycle spells have no place in the front lines.

And jobs based on those spells...? You keep getting 99% of the way to the conclusion that RDM was never designed to be a frontline job at higher levels on non-trivial content, but refusing to reach that conclusion.

To continue, I'm of the mind enfeebling in particular could be tied into melee in a way unique to RDM (using RDM's own enfeebling magic in a different way). Elemental magic could be tied to RDM melee as well to give some use to those spells available to us. That way you reap certain benefits from a front line RDM and get different benefits from a back line RDM. A very rough idea, though I do have my proposed redesign sitting around here somewhere...

It seems to me that it would be not so much a *re*design as a design for a new job. Which might be interesting, and I might even want to level it, but I'd like to keep my RDM too (and so would a large number of other RDMs, probably the majority). It's just not reasonable to expect one job to be two jobs to any more of an extent than RDM already is. This isn't a Hasso vs. Seigan type of difference. It's a RDM vs. DRK type of difference. (In fact, probably a lot of your ideas would make great additions to DRK; they're heavily focused on 2h weapons and have only one enspell, but other than that, they'd be a better foundation for melee-enfeeblers than RDM would).

There once was a class that happened to be in the exact same pickle RDM has been in for years. Toward whom people reacted the exact same way whenever melee was brought up. With very similar design (sword & magic hybrid, limited healing capability, buffs, utility right out of the box, even some real defensive moves), and the same shortcomings (low damage compared to the "real" front-liners, ease in being pigeonholed to buffbot and healer, little in-game support for a melee-oriented playstyle). Whose melee camp was called selfish for not wanting to sit pretty and let the "real heroes" stand in the front lines while they wore dresses and hung back with the priests. Whose melee camp also went to great lengths to argue for their style of play, and faced major resistance not only from players of other classes, but also players within their own class. Sound familiar?

Not terribly, but I think I know where you're going with this. Except that if you're talking about what I think you're talking about, they were never designed to *also* have good crowd control, decent nuking, the only true snare in the game, the best anticaster abilities in the game, enfeebles that can seriously reduce a mob's DPS... you're leaving out half of RDM's toolbox for the simple reason that the class I think you're talking about never had those abilities (and still doesn't, IIRC). Which negates your point about "very similar design".

Anyway, the melee buffs came and went. And you know what happened? It was suddenly okay for them to melee in groups. If you chose to front line and were geared for it, you were more than welcome to swing your weapon; hell, you didn't have to wear best-in-slot gear or wielding legendaries for people to accept you melee'ing things. The guys that liked healing and buffing got to continue doing so, while the melee camp happily did what they had wanted to do all along. It was a win for everyone.

The terminology suggests that you're talking about WoW, most likely paladin. But WoW specs (especially post-Cata) are much more different from each other than subjob choices. They're practically different jobs with dramatically different playstyles, abilities, gear choices, etc. (especially specs that have different roles). There are a few abilities in common, half of which aren't even used after low levels because they're superseded by spec-specific (or spec-enhanced) abilities. FF is never going to have a job that's three or four jobs in one; on the other hand I doubt WoW will ever have 20 classes. In practically everything except having to level them separately, it would be more appropriate to compare FFXI jobs to WoW *specs* rather than classes, especially for classes whose specs have radically divergent playstyles like Paladin and Druid (even druid's 2 DPS specs are as different from each other as completely different jobs).

Oh, and holy paladins (the ones that people didn't want meleeing) still don't deal good melee DPS. They're primarily... healers (albeit frontline ones). If you want strong melee damage you have to spec retribution, at which point you can't heal worth crap (or fill any role other than DPS, which WoW, like this game, has a massive excess of).

There was also a lot of encounter redesign involved in the rebirth of holy paladin melee, wasn't there? Specifically, the near-total elimination of PBAOEs from Wrath and Cata boss fights, replacing them with damage to random targets and "don't stand in the fire" mechanics? FFXI still has plenty of PBAOEs and center-on-tank AOEs (both damaging and enfeebling), not to mention the TP mechanic, to make the bar for "it's more useful for you to melee than to stay away" a lot higher. This is already a big problem for the job that's *designed* to be a frontline healer and support (DNC). It would be worse for melee RDM, which is why people tell RDM not to melee in those fights.

If you could somehow translate WoW holy paladins into FFXI they'd probably be asked to stay the heck away from the caturae, ironclads, wyrms, chariots, etc... because their meager melee output doesn't make up for the disadvantages (in FFXI) of having unnecessarily many people close to/feeding TP to a boss. Conversely, if RDMs could somehow be translated into post-Cata WoW and had a melee tree, it would be about as effective at healing, enfeebling, or CC as your average DPS feral or enhancement shaman.

[Duelle]

Um... cast cure spells? What are you looking for, a heal with the casting time of Stun? (Judging from the end of your post, maybe...)

Ah, you're familiar with what I speak of. Yes, I'd love to have something like the original Art of War mechanic for RDM. In all honesty, though, I don't think FFXI's game engine would support it without an on-demand JA, which would kind of defeat the whole purpose of the mechanic.

It's already 7:30 with Composure, whether you're in melee or not. Of course if you want to have powerful buffs for other party members *and* powerful melee without them interfering with each other... then why would people invite the powerful melee that don't also have powerful buffs? (Why does COR do less damage than RNG? Because it also does other things.)

COR has the benefit of being in ranged. The only thing holding it back are the people who still play it as COR/WHM spamming only quickdraw and rolls. Leaden Salute and the hexaguns are actually quite nice.

By the way, Refresh = powerful buffs? That's a laugh.

And jobs based on those spells...? You keep getting 99% of the way to the conclusion that RDM was never designed to be a frontline job at higher levels on non-trivial content, but refusing to reach that conclusion.

Bad design is bad design. And the basis for me even saying any of this is that as long as Red Mage's archetype remains sword&magic hybrid, I'll still treat it as a class that is simply lacking what it needs to actually live up to what its archetype was created for. Besides, basing jobs on those two spells is asking for trouble.

It seems to me that it would be not so much a *re*design as a design for a new job. Which might be interesting, and I might even want to level it, but I'd like to keep my RDM too (and so would a large number of other RDMs, probably the majority).

You assume I wouldn't keep the current RDM playstyle largely if not entirely intact. I don't limit myself to "one role per class" unlike others around here. I never bothered to flesh it out, but that's because no one wants to discuss it with me. >.>;

Not terribly, but I think I know where you're going with this. Except that if you're talking about what I think you're talking about, they were never designed to *also* have good crowd control, decent nuking, the only true snare in the game, the best anticaster abilities in the game, enfeebles that can seriously reduce a mob's DPS... you're leaving out half of RDM's toolbox for the simple reason that the class I think you're talking about never had those abilities (and still doesn't, IIRC). Which negates your point about "very similar design".

If you meant Bind and Gravity, sure, I can concede on those. Repentance is actually pretty damn good crowd control since that was changed into an incapacitate from a stun that only worked on undead. "Anticaster" is pretty much limited to silence, not to mention our soulmate class has to deal with classes that can instantly cast spells, which don't really exist in this game. As far as the enfeebles part, both played a similar role, just in different ways. Paralyze doesn't exist in that other game, and Slow was given to the warriors, so we had to settle for extra damage taken and +haste to the party/raid and +damage.

But WoW specs (especially post-Cata) are much more different from each other than subjob choices. They're practically different jobs with dramatically different playstyles, abilities, gear choices, etc. (especially specs that have different roles). There are a few abilities in common, half of which aren't even used after low levels because they're superseded by spec-specific (or spec-enhanced) abilities.

You err here. Hybrids in WoW have a baseline common factor. This is the case for druids, shaman and paladins. It's just much more pronounced for pallies because shaman specs go all over the place and druids have a shape-shifting mechanic to act as a limiting factor. Pallies, on the other hand, and just like RDM, have access to everything out of the box regardless of spec (which was largely the reason why ret was purposely kept gimp due to the "your damage is low because of your utility" mantra). You don't have forms to separate them or anything else. And believe me, I was there during the debates where some of us rets were saying "just do what you did with priests and give us a melee form".

FF is never going to have a job that's three or four jobs in one; on the other hand I doubt WoW will ever have 20 classes.

That's not what I'm asking for. What I'm asking for is for the hybrid classes (not just RDM) to have their different roles be actually relevant in group content. WoW is the most recent example I've seen of this, which is why I quote it so much. I was also part of the ret (AKA melee) paladin movement that wanted to see our spec become a real contender for front-lining instead of the gimp and useless joke it was in Vanilla and a large part of The Burning Crusade (very much like melee RDM currently is in this game). So yeah, I'm familiar with all the nay-sayer excuses and failed arguments, and know they're full of s**t because I've seen it turn out differently and for the better of the class.

Oh, and holy paladins (the ones that people didn't want meleeing) still don't deal good melee DPS. They're primarily... healers (albeit frontline ones).

Holy paladins healing is fine. They're the healer spec and I'd expect them to do as such unless they want to do something crazy like a shockadin spec (not that it's possible at all post-Cata). And they don't really front line to heal. They stay in the back, since even with the new Holy Power mechanic, they can just use Holy Shock to build up their HoPo charges.

If you want strong melee damage you have to spec retribution, at which point you can't heal worth crap

If I were to take anything from any era of WoW, I'd focus more on WotLK Ret, where you could use your Art of War procs to heal and while not getting the massive heals from a real healer, where nice in a pinch without gobbling up your entire mana bar. I've saved my healers from near wipes several times while raiding, which is why I grew to like that mechanic so much.

Specifically, the near-total elimination of PBAOEs from Wrath and Cata boss fights, replacing them with damage to random targets and "don't stand in the fire" mechanics?

Not really. You still had raid damage to take into account as a whole (Ulduar is a good example of this). No, you didn't have encounters with massive positioning requirements (like Brutallus in sunwell plateau), but not all bosses are like Noth the plaguebringer or Patchwerk, either. >.>;

FFXI still has plenty of PBAOEs and center-on-tank AOEs (both damaging and enfeebling), not to mention the TP mechanic, to make the bar for "it's more useful for you to melee than to stay away" a lot higher. This is already a big problem for the job that's *designed* to be a frontline healer and support (DNC). It would be worse for melee RDM, which is why people tell RDM not to melee in those fights.

Encounter and class design are two different things. What I can say however is that yes, the devs were short-sighted or are very limited by XI's game engine to create challenging content. I don't know about you, but I got the feeling they were scraping the bottom of the barrel when I saw all those enfeeble auras on several of the abyssea NMs. It's like fighting maiden of virtue except without the built-in ways to get your damage in between aura "ticks". Which yes, makes encounters very melee unfriendly. That's a discussion for another topic, though, because I'm sure the WARs and SAMs and DRGs and DRKs of the game would like to be more than just cheerleaders or be told to change to their mage jobs so often when it comes to this stuff.

As for your last paragraph, I use ret paladins as my point of comparison because, as I mentioned earlier, Paladins have access to all their utility out of the box regardless of spec. The gear and the spec is what pushes them to be accepted melee front-liners should they choose to (emphasis on choose). RDM has their utility right out of the box, but without the benefits of mechanics and DPS to help them justify their being in the front lines. A RDM with feral druid limitations would mean it can only melee and go through a convoluted process to get one spell off. A RDM with enh. shaman limitations...well, lets just say I don't wish a playstyle entirely centered on objects that need to be placed on the ground every time you move on anyone.

[Seha]

hexaguns are actually quite nice

Ugh...

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