Job Adjustments manifesto Discussion

[Kyte]

That and they have the option of meleeing alongside their avatars when soloing. lolSMNmeleegear and combat skill is also a step above SCH.

[Dallas]

That and they have the option of meleeing alongside their avatars when soloing. lolSMNmeleegear and combat skill is also a step above SCH.

They conveniently forget the multitude of melee buffs that SMN gets to choose from. They forget the 2hand bonus that puts SMN that far ahead of WHM or RDM to start, and the avatar that provides the best meat shield any melee mage could hope for (one that you'd sooner ditch than heal). Nope, SMN isn't supposed to touch melee...

Solo farming, SMN wipes the floor with most jobs. I'll admit though, only a half-dozen jobs appear to be up to the challenge. Haters gonna hate.

On topic, SMN appears to be going full-tilt MP drain. It will be fun to watch how many SMN scramble to find more mp.

[Neisan_Quetz]

EDIT: Flubbed the calculations, it's 405 accuracy on Smn with Hasso versus 397 on Rdm assuming full merits on both and Suppa/Composure on Rdm disregarding RR/cruor buffs, okay, I'll give you your +8 'miles ahead' accuracy.

[Greatguardian]

EDIT: Flubbed the calculations, it's 405 accuracy on Smn with Hasso versus 397 on Rdm asusming full merits on both and Suppa on Rdm, okay, I'll give you your +8 'miles ahead' accuracy.

Don't bother. He's just trying to start more trouble here.

[Dallas]

So we are arming the RDM to narrow the margin? We're also assuming that only the RDM would think of meleeing with the best melee atma? LOL. Consider this: RR helps out 2h weapons MORE than 1h weapons. Oh snap!

And then you got the "5x" guy himself telling you that it's not worth your time coming up with anything resembing honest posts. If we mashed all of you together, we'd have some sort of "super troll" that still couldn't lie well. Haters gonna hate, but they sure ain't gonna think.

[noodles355]

All I read was WAR getting Sneak Attack, Dancer getting Assassin's Charge, and thief getting improved success rate on steal and despoil (which are already useless outside of dynamis currancy and brigandish blade).

Go go SE.

[Duelle]

Healing is often a needed role in a group. Melee on the other hand... there's how many jobs that melee better than RDM *and* don't have the choice of doing anything else? Melee is basically never something a group needs more of, and if they did, they wouldn't look at a RDM for it even if it meleed better than BLU (which, unlike RDM, has an A sword skill, but would still be not that great a melee if it didn't spend MP on spells to add more damage). That's why it's important for RDM to have the option of nuking or healing decently, and not so important for us to have the option of melee (in group situations).

You're trying to justify stuffing an archetype that generally has no business doing dedicated healing into the role of healer through demand. Not getting off to a good start, there, seeing that such a mindset is not too far from the asinine and old "you have an MP pool, so start healing".

RDM melee is more of a solo/small group thing than something that should be attempted against VT and up, and it's pretty much always been that way for higher level RDM.

Solo is meaningless in a game designed from the ground up on partying.

I don't want to be "shackled" to healing, I want to have the OPTION of being an adequate healer if that is what the party/alliance needs. That's part of the versatility of RDM. Just like I want to have the option of nuking, or the option of enfeebling (on mobs that aren't immune). Enfeebling isn't very meaningful at the moment, but SE is showing some signs of wanting to improve that in future content.

Just like you want the option of being an adequate healer, I want the option of being an adequate front-liner. We should be on the same side, instead of trying to downplay what we want to do in-game.

A game with 20 jobs shouldn't have only 1 of them being capable of being a viable healer for a group. That's bad game design and is going to lead to either way too many people playing the same job and the others being neglected, a massive healer shortage, or both.

Which isn't my problem, but more connected to how FF's job classes were conceived. Sure, someone was bound to get the short end of the stick, I simply expected it to be someone who had a history of being a caster and had no melee inclinations at all.

That aside, most of us know healing is not a popular role. It's no excuse for grabbing a popular class (like Red Mage) and stuffing it into healing to create a pool of healers. All that does is anger a bunch of people and create needless drama.

P.S. Have you played any other FF games? RDM has never been more than second-rate, at best, at melee. For years, their signature ability has been to cast more spells faster than other mages, never anything melee-related. In FFV, for example, RDM doesn't have a single learnable ability that improves physical damage. The actual DD jobs are getting things like Dual Wield, Boost (the FFV versions of both of those are *much* stronger), Barrage (works a little differently but insanely strong), Jump for double damage usable every attack round, etc. There is no viable RDM melee build -- at most, you can give them a melee-supporting ability from some *other* job to give them something to do that doesn't cost MP. IIRC, pretty much the same is true in FFIII. I have no idea where people got the idea that RDM were ever supposed to have first-rate melee abilities. First-rate melee jobs don't have a B in their primary weapon.

Some of us know certain concepts don't work in MMORPGs. The more MMOs you've played and the more design philosophies you've been exposed to, the easier it is to spot. RDM's core design from the console FFs is a prime example of this, because while game balance in the console games ignores min-maxing for the most part (barring bosses designed around min-maxing like the weapons in VII, Ovni in IX and Shinryuu where applicable), that same style will NOT fly in an MMORPG because of how encounter balance tends to go.

That being said, I've seen RDM's plight and issues in other games. For exactly the same reasons and with the exact same community reactions. In plain english, hybrids get screwed over more often than not, and few make the effort to actually make the hybrids viable in more than one role. The worst part is that said hybrids get stuck with mundane and boring tasks with sorry gimmicks to make them "needed" (like Refresh). I personally would not have an issue with any of this if the job had been called oracle, green mage or something that did NOT have a history of being a guy that knows magic and wields a sword. Being a magic swordsman whose only purpose in-game is to buff other players and spam cures is demeaning, to say the least. Try sticking a light-touched warrior archetype into the same situation and see the uproar and complaints. Trust me, it ain't pretty.

[Malamasala]

In my opinion, RDM is just an alternative to PLD. Not intended to deal massive damage, but do add some while they take hits. Of course SE's vision is different, in that all it supposedly does is debuff and buff.

I'm obviously biased, but I'd say I'm holding true to red mages of the past, while SE just want to explore new possibilities by experimenting.

[Neisan_Quetz]

So we are arming the RDM to narrow the margin? We're also assuming that only the RDM would think of meleeing with the best melee atma? LOL. Consider this: RR helps out 2h weapons MORE than 1h weapons. Oh snap!

And then you got the "5x" guy himself telling you that it's not worth your time coming up with anything resembing honest posts. If we mashed all of you together, we'd have some sort of "super troll" that still couldn't lie well. Haters gonna hate, but they sure ain't gonna think.

Do you just spout stuff with no idea what you're talking about? If either is going to melee I'd hope they're not stupid enough to melee in full Af/Emp/PDT atmas or something stupid like that so of course they're going to 'arm' themselves for melee... seriously just stop talking. As bad as it is Rdm still has better melee gear than Smn. Don't try and play the BP card or now you're assuming both are meleeing the same mob without being in the same pt (not that I'd pt with a melee smn in the first place inside abyssea because you're mostly useless, the Rdm too, but w/e).

Both can cap without issue on IT trash not Thf mobs (Even if the Rdm is meleeing in -8 accuracy), Anything more evasive both are either switching to pizza/sushi anyway/Rdm can use Dex Shamshir putting them within approx. ~5-10 of Smn's accuracy.

[Korpg]

Just ignore Dallas, the guy still thinks he discovered Abyssea.