On Red Mage melee...

[Rearden]

At Lv75, if I WS'd Khimmy 4 or 5 times on SAM (Approx. 4800-6000dmg), I don't think a RDM could catch up unless he was tanking. On that same note, if I was tanking Khimmy on SAM, there's no RDM in the world who could have caught up...and it's not like I was Amano'ing it or anything.

[Swords]

No, because that won't happen unless the sam sucks.

That's what I thought you'd say.

[Aurara]

Actually, spellcasting is one of the biggest burdens to RDM, any old school RDM like myself knows your constantly casting debuffs, cures, buffs and reapplying as necessary is almost non-stop in a battle. Truthfully that's also one of the biggest blockaids to a RDM meleeing, because casting effects your overall DoT and TP gain for WS's in battle.

What...? RDM's job is not to be on the frontlines, get over yourself lol. There is a reason that they have all of the enhancing/enfeeb spells(i.e slow2 para2 gravity, etc), granted some of these spells overlap, but RDM still has the job of debuffing/buffing/curing, not meleeing.

Hey it worked for SAM's when they bitched and moaned about being second tier DD's prior to all the boosts they got.

I said this already, but SAM is a frontline DD, RDM is not.

That's what I thought you'd say.

Also, wut? It's true, there is no way a RDM is going to come CLOSE to the SAM's dmg unless the sam is terrible, or dead argue any way you want, you're wrong.

[Swords]

At Lv75, if I WS'd Khimmy 4 or 5 times on SAM (Approx. 4800-6000dmg), I don't think a RDM could catch up unless he was tanking. On that same note, if I was tanking Khimmy on SAM, there's no RDM in the world who could have caught up...and it's not like I was Amano'ing it or anything.

Aye realisticly, the RDM would have to be entirely focusing on melee to keep/catch up. If he's taking care of 500 spells for the party/alliance there's no way he could keep up marginally. And it's really that bad as it is, which is why I DO NOT want any new spells for RDM.

[Aurara]

Aye realisticly, the RDM would have to be entirely focusing on melee to keep/catch up. If he's taking care of 500 spells for the party/alliance there's no way he could keep up marginally. And it's really that bad as it is, which is why I DO NOT want any new spells for RDM.

No, the RDM could be fulltime melee not curing or doing any sort of spellcasting and still not come close to 80% of the claimed SAM dmg, you're wrong just stop arguing lol.

[Rearden]

Right but, if I was co-tanking with a RDM, he still wouldn't come near 80% of what I was doing. There's a reason SAM was such a great tank (it deals damage).

[Hyrist]

No, the RDM could be fulltime melee not curing or doing any sort of spellcasting and still not come close to 80% of the claimed SAM dmg, you're wrong just stop arguing lol.

Actually, Aurara, at 75 cap (ToAU era) it would be you that's incorrect. There were multiple parses taken to prove this point done during that time. The fact that RDM could do pretty much half a dedicated Healer's curing amoun, maintain Dia III and ~80% of DDs in Colibri Era is set in stone, that's not even disputable. (And this was before Composure was released, mind you.) But it took quite a bit of gear work on behalf of the RDM to do so. And they were not primary healer in party. Those circumstances alone was argument enough to keep any sort of acceptance from being realized.

Nowadays? I wouldn't contest the fact that RDM's Melee performance has lagged behind that point. RDM can cap haste now, mind you, but laggs behind far more in other stats such as Attack/Str, etc to catch up on some of the burst damage many do. And again, RDM is forced to leap some high hurtles to push their performance. (A CDC weapon at this point is pretty much a must.)

But this isn't anything new for RDM's historically. 51-70s were a gigantic performance gap area for RDM's frontline before Composure came. By the time that JA came out, it was far too late to break the stigma for the majority of players, including Red Mages. Post Joyeuse, especially post Blau Dolch, however, the gap started tightening up fairly hard. So, to me, it comes as no surprise that from 80-99 we're going to lag behind in transitional performance stages.

Right now, my eyes are focused on what RDM is getting in the next patch releaced. From what I've seen in the dats, we're beyond the concept phase. What we seem to be getting is JA form Quick Cast, a new (different) Enspell, and a Spell called Brave (probably Bravery). I'm wondering how these two spells are going to function, because honeslty, they could be the Utility + Performance increase we've been asking for respectively.

[Aurara]

Actually, Aurara, at 75 cap (ToAU era) it would be you that's incorrect. There were multiple parses taken to prove this point done during that time. The fact that RDM could do pretty much half a dedicated Healer's curing amoun, maintain Dia III and ~80% of DDs in Colibri Era is set in stone, that's not even disputable. (And this was before Composure was released, mind you.) But it took quite a bit of gear work on behalf of the RDM to do so. And they were not primary healer in party. Those circumstances alone was argument enough to keep any sort of acceptance from being realized.

Those must have been some really terribly geared DDs because that shouldn't even happen, lol.

I dont care to respond to your other stuff because its equally ridiculous RDM wont come within 80% unless the DDs are crap or dead.

[Hyrist]

This is old arguments, actually, like, 2008 old.

But it's been done, it's been parsed, and it's been worded in a way that cannot be more adequately put.

Your disbelief isn't anything new.

There's more, buried under the long history of RDM melee arguments that people ignored throughout the years. There's hard data that's proved it both in parse and in the math. Just because people want to cup their ears, close their eyes and go 'na na na it's not real because it breaks with my preconceptions!' does not change the reality of what actually happened. I sat there and witnessed this guy myself. (probably still have pics buried in my Photobucket, actually.) It was the real deal.

Ask a RDM to try to replicate that now at 90? Doubt it.

[Rearden]

Stating that something is a fact, generally undisputed, etc, doesn't really make it so. I can take my DRK to most any Abys PT, not go AFK for an hour and not only come within 80% of, but usually outparse other DD's in the party.

This isn't due to DRK being a good DD, me being a great DRK or me having great gear - it's because 99% of the playerbase ISN'T WORTH COMPARING YOURSELF TO.