On Red Mage melee...

[Aurara]

Alright, I'll ask you this. Would you believe me, Hyrist, or anyone else if they had compared a fully decked out seasoned SAM to a well equipped seasoned RDM that still output 80% of the SAM's damage comparitively, even IF they put out screenshots, pharser results, and anything else they could think of?

No, because that won't happen unless the sam sucks.

Edit: SAM is an actual DD, RDM is not that is why they got DD buffs and RDM did not.

[Rearden]

At Lv75, if I WS'd Khimmy 4 or 5 times on SAM (Approx. 4800-6000dmg), I don't think a RDM could catch up unless he was tanking. On that same note, if I was tanking Khimmy on SAM, there's no RDM in the world who could have caught up...and it's not like I was Amano'ing it or anything.

[Swords]

At Lv75, if I WS'd Khimmy 4 or 5 times on SAM (Approx. 4800-6000dmg), I don't think a RDM could catch up unless he was tanking. On that same note, if I was tanking Khimmy on SAM, there's no RDM in the world who could have caught up...and it's not like I was Amano'ing it or anything.

Aye realisticly, the RDM would have to be entirely focusing on melee to keep/catch up. If he's taking care of 500 spells for the party/alliance there's no way he could keep up marginally. And it's really that bad as it is, which is why I DO NOT want any new spells for RDM.

[Aurara]

Aye realisticly, the RDM would have to be entirely focusing on melee to keep/catch up. If he's taking care of 500 spells for the party/alliance there's no way he could keep up marginally. And it's really that bad as it is, which is why I DO NOT want any new spells for RDM.

No, the RDM could be fulltime melee not curing or doing any sort of spellcasting and still not come close to 80% of the claimed SAM dmg, you're wrong just stop arguing lol.

[Swords]

No, because that won't happen unless the sam sucks.

That's what I thought you'd say.

[Rearden]

Right but, if I was co-tanking with a RDM, he still wouldn't come near 80% of what I was doing. There's a reason SAM was such a great tank (it deals damage).

[Hyrist]

No, the RDM could be fulltime melee not curing or doing any sort of spellcasting and still not come close to 80% of the claimed SAM dmg, you're wrong just stop arguing lol.

Actually, Aurara, at 75 cap (ToAU era) it would be you that's incorrect. There were multiple parses taken to prove this point done during that time. The fact that RDM could do pretty much half a dedicated Healer's curing amoun, maintain Dia III and ~80% of DDs in Colibri Era is set in stone, that's not even disputable. (And this was before Composure was released, mind you.) But it took quite a bit of gear work on behalf of the RDM to do so. And they were not primary healer in party. Those circumstances alone was argument enough to keep any sort of acceptance from being realized.

Nowadays? I wouldn't contest the fact that RDM's Melee performance has lagged behind that point. RDM can cap haste now, mind you, but laggs behind far more in other stats such as Attack/Str, etc to catch up on some of the burst damage many do. And again, RDM is forced to leap some high hurtles to push their performance. (A CDC weapon at this point is pretty much a must.)

But this isn't anything new for RDM's historically. 51-70s were a gigantic performance gap area for RDM's frontline before Composure came. By the time that JA came out, it was far too late to break the stigma for the majority of players, including Red Mages. Post Joyeuse, especially post Blau Dolch, however, the gap started tightening up fairly hard. So, to me, it comes as no surprise that from 80-99 we're going to lag behind in transitional performance stages.

Right now, my eyes are focused on what RDM is getting in the next patch releaced. From what I've seen in the dats, we're beyond the concept phase. What we seem to be getting is JA form Quick Cast, a new (different) Enspell, and a Spell called Brave (probably Bravery). I'm wondering how these two spells are going to function, because honeslty, they could be the Utility + Performance increase we've been asking for respectively.

[Aurara]

Actually, Aurara, at 75 cap (ToAU era) it would be you that's incorrect. There were multiple parses taken to prove this point done during that time. The fact that RDM could do pretty much half a dedicated Healer's curing amoun, maintain Dia III and ~80% of DDs in Colibri Era is set in stone, that's not even disputable. (And this was before Composure was released, mind you.) But it took quite a bit of gear work on behalf of the RDM to do so. And they were not primary healer in party. Those circumstances alone was argument enough to keep any sort of acceptance from being realized.

Those must have been some really terribly geared DDs because that shouldn't even happen, lol.

I dont care to respond to your other stuff because its equally ridiculous RDM wont come within 80% unless the DDs are crap or dead.

[Hyrist]

This is old arguments, actually, like, 2008 old.

But it's been done, it's been parsed, and it's been worded in a way that cannot be more adequately put.

Your disbelief isn't anything new.

There's more, buried under the long history of RDM melee arguments that people ignored throughout the years. There's hard data that's proved it both in parse and in the math. Just because people want to cup their ears, close their eyes and go 'na na na it's not real because it breaks with my preconceptions!' does not change the reality of what actually happened. I sat there and witnessed this guy myself. (probably still have pics buried in my Photobucket, actually.) It was the real deal.

Ask a RDM to try to replicate that now at 90? Doubt it.