Puppetmaster's Asuran Fists <Where?>

[Alhanelem]

what about newer pups or pple that dont have the time for nyzul that cant get SP let alone VS?

There's no excuse for this. I still see people shouting for it. Many myhic WS are good, and as long as there are people that need them there will be people doing nyzul. if you're lucky enough to get your weapon before you reach the top, you can stop once you get at least halfway up if you've been having trouble getting in, when the number of WS points starts to become more reasonable. As for nyzul itself, it's easier than ever. If you are really fast, it's quite possible to do 10 floors in a run. I have cleared a set of 5 in less than half of the allotted time- so I know it can be done.

As for victory smite, if you're patient enough you can solo farm the coins for revenant fists +2.

Which they have showed no interest in doing anyway.

Eh, one can always hope.

All that really needs to be done is to treat cures and -na spells as seperate spell groups (like already exists for other types of spells plus the current cure+na group) so you can specifically choose to get a cure or a -na spell.

[Mizuharu]

There's no excuse for this. I still see people shouting for it. Many myhic WS are good, and as long as there are people that need them there will be people doing nyzul. if you're lucky enough to get your weapon before you reach the top, you can stop once you get at least halfway up if you've been having trouble getting in, when the number of WS points starts to become more reasonable. As for nyzul itself, it's easier than ever. If you are really fast, it's quite possible to do 10 floors in a run. I have cleared a set of 5 in less than half of the allotted time- so I know it can be done.

No excuse? Okay. Yes, there's always someone doing Nyzul Isle most likely. Just maybe not the floors you need. Now a days, if there is a Nyzul Shout, it's always for boss floors for equipment.

But, for your sake, we'll go ahead and say that everyone should have mythic weapon skills.

Okay, done.

MNK still gets Asruan Fists cause of 250 combat skill. And please don't say the whole "master mnk" storyline. They managed to get everyone else into the quests for WSNM WSs. Even BRDs get Evisceration. Explain how they'd fit into the storyline for a quest that teaches "the deadliest dagger attack." Or, hell, the PLD job NPC is the started for the Impulse Drive quest and also part of the DRG AF quest, but his WS is meant only for WAR/SAM/DRG. Why not PLD? Didn't hit that 240 mark under/at 75. All in all, they don't need PUP to fit into the "master monk" storyline behind the starter NPC.

Eh, one can always hope.

All that really needs to be done is to treat cures and -na spells as seperate spell groups (like already exists for other types of spells plus the current cure+na group) so you can specifically choose to get a cure or a -na spell.

The AI system for the WHM frame is pretty much a mock version of the NPC AI; save for the fact that NPCs has a much shorter delay between spells than the automaton and buffs are included into the NPC's AI and that we can prompt certain actions, not all. If they fix the WHM Automaton AI, they're going to have to fix the NPC AI along with that. How long do you think that'd take?

[Dfoley]

I have to agree that there is no reason not to be able to get the nyzul ws now adays. You can even go as a pup now and still contribute. Back in the day it was mnk and sam onry and it sucked for it.

Dont rely on a shout for someone doing the floors you need/want, MAKE A STATIC, it takes 2 hrs once a week and you can go 20 floors minimum a weekend (best my group ever did was 25 floors, but its all on the luck of the floors you get).
We did 20, 40, 60, and did a mid week 70, 90, mid week 100. Took us 4.5 weeks and aside from me, my brother, and 1 friend, everyone else changed weekly.

IT IS SO EASY, i cannot stress it enough.

As for why pups shouldnt get asuran fists:
1) We are clowns/performers, not martial artists, it says it with everything we do and everything SE gives us including our class description, af look and name, the much later MA trais, lack of DD based JA.

2) we cant even use all types of h2h weapon, specifically the one type needed to unlock it.
pup can use:
baghnakhs
claws
katars
sainti

mnk can also use
knuckles * trial weapon for asurans fists
cesti * how the trial weapon is described in the quest text.

I dont think its an accident that we dont have it, even after having our h2h skill uped to B+. The lack of an A+ skill translates into SE thinking we arent real DD and thats why our pets get A+ skill and bad ass ws. I am honestly supprised no ranger has complained about armor shatter yet.

[Alhanelem]

Just maybe not the floors you need.

If you need a certain floor, start a party yourself. If you really can't get 2 friends or 2 random people to go, I see a problem here.

@ previous post: in b4 someone mentions scogan's knuckles again- its a special weapon made for PUP.

If they fix the WHM Automaton AI, they're going to have to fix the NPC AI along with that. How long do you think that'd take?

While it's similar, the NPC AI is a seperate beast. The NPC just casts whatever spell it wants, the only rule he has is he won't cast a buff on you that you already have.

[Mizuharu]

As for why pups shouldnt get asuran fists:
1) We are clowns/performers, not martial artists, it says it with everything we do and everything SE gives us including our class description, af look and name, the much later MA trais, lack of DD based JA.

2) we cant even use all types of h2h weapon, specifically the one type needed to unlock it.
pup can use:
baghnakhs
claws
katars
sainti

mnk can also use
knuckles * trial weapon for asurans fists
cesti * how the trial weapon is described in the quest text.

I dont think its an accident that we dont have it, even after having our h2h skill uped to B+. The lack of an A+ skill translates into SE thinking we arent real DD and thats why our pets get A+ skill and bad ass ws. I am honestly supprised no ranger has complained about armor shatter yet.

If we're not martial artist, we wouldn't get Martial Arts traits and we'd all be using daggers or staying completely on the side lines while our pet did all the damage (rather than doing this when the situation calls for it)

Furor Cesti
Scogan's Knuckles (It's still an exception to the rule Tah.)
Heofon Knuckles

are Cesti/Knuckles that PUP can wear. They can clearly make exceptions. RDM and COR can't wear Sapara swords normally but the Sapara of Trials is an exception to this rule.

If we "aren't real DD", why would Stringing Pummel be so highly praised despite it being a PUP WS?

While it's similar, the NPC AI is a seperate beast. The NPC just casts whatever spell it wants, the only rule he has is he won't cast a buff on you that you already have.

The NPC follows simple rules for spell casting.

Remove status effects from PC.
Remove Status Effects from self.
Cure PC.
Cure Self.
*(if in combat) Cast enfeebling spells on the target. (If an Enfeeb lands, it will not recast until it wears)
*(if not in combat/none of the above need to be done) Enhance PC and Self.
*While normally true, the NPC might swap these around depending on what buff it's casting (Pro/Shell/Haste) They normally never cast Stoneskin/Blink unless all enfeebing spells they have access to are on the target or they were casting it prior to engaging a monster.

While the Automaton's AI system, as taken from your wiki (without any maneuvers present)
PC/Auto HP:100%~75% Status Removal → Silence → Slow → Blind → Paralyze → Bio II → Poison → Cure VI
PC/Auto HP: 75%~0% Status Removal → Cure VI → Silence → Slow → Blind → Paralyze → Bio II → Poison

Same rule; if an enfeeb lands, the Automaton will not cast the debuff again on the same mob unless it's removed/wears off naturally. They're basicly one in the same save for the buffing rule on NPC. Only that the automaton has a longer spellcast delay between spells and that we can prompt certain enfeebs with maneuvers.

[Dfoley]

Exceptions to the rule dont change the rule. Its like I before E unless after C. Its still a rule, even if there are exceptions to it.

I ment PUP alone isnt considered a DD, you HAVE to factor our pet in to compare us to DD like SAM or RNG or MNK or WAR. The reason SP is highly praised is because they gave a lesser DD a more powerful ws because we needed the mods back at 75 to compete. Then abyssea and the level increase happened, and crit ws became godly and acc no longer mattered. Its like when you look at a mage ws and ask 'why do mages that never melee and have B skill at best have better ftp mods'. Its because they needed it at a time.

We arent martial artists, think Cirque du Solei. Nimble, agile, physically fit, and as a result we have enough muscle to fight with our hands, and hence why our MA tier is so far behind someone who does nothing other then fight with their hands.

[Alhanelem]

Furor Cesti
Scogan's Knuckles (It's still an exception to the rule Tah.)
Heofon Knuckles

yes. EXCEPTIONS to the RULE. The general RULE is PUP can't use those weapon types; except in a rare special case where such a weapon is specifically made for PUP. No existing weapon of those types was made usable by pup when or anytime after it was released. Just drop it already.

PUP uses hand to hand weapons, yes. But they're not martial arts profressionals to the degree MNKs are. We get the martial arts trait yes, but much less of it than a MNK. Maybe you don't know the story behind asuran fists, but it is an attack to be used only by the greatist martial arts masters, of which PUP is not.

[Mizuharu]

yes. EXCEPTIONS to the RULE. The general RULE is PUP can't use those weapon types; except in a rare special case where such a weapon is specifically made for PUP. No existing weapon of those types was made usable by pup when or anytime after it was released. Just drop it already.

Don't think I will. Explain the Saparta of Trials then. The general rule is that only WAR/THF/PLD/DRK/BLU can wear, but the trial one is for WAR/RDM/PLD/DRK/BLU/COR. When they added DNC they added them to Evisceration though they normally can not weild dagger type daggers (such as this one) WSNM weapons always made exceptions for jobs so long as that job could reach that skill naturally by 75. Can't see why PUP wouldn't apply to this rule.

PUP uses hand to hand weapons, yes. But they're not martial arts profressionals to the degree MNKs are. We get the martial arts trait yes, but much less of it than a MNK. Maybe you don't know the story behind asuran fists, but it is an attack to be used only by the greatist martial arts masters, of which PUP is not.

For every WSNM trial it mentions at this is an attack meant for "the greatest" of said weapon. On it's release, Monk was the only Hand-to-Hand job and thus Asuran Fists was exclusive to them. Every other job could not reach the skill level they had set for Asuran Fists. I don't really think you have too much of a case with Asuran fists being for "the greatist martial arts masters" because ever weapon has been treated like that, yet every job has access to at least one of them if not multiple.

[Ahtos]

It's like talking to a wall lol If you don´t accept other options then don´t post in forums ^^
8 pages now and its the same crap over and over again. You asked a question, ppl gave you an answer why PUP don´t have AF, you ask again and ppl gave you the same answer, you ask again,...... funny huh?! It's more like talking to a little kid cuz they wanna know everything even you already gave them an answer.

Btw. PUP's main weapon isn´t the H2H, its the Puppet. Yes its the Master's highest combat skill (and it was Throwing b4 the H2H skill increase) but that doesn´t mean PUP is the world champion in martial arts and should get every H2H weapon and WS.
PUP don´t have access to Spharai too, its the same story.

[Alhanelem]

I'm still seeing no good reason other than "we deserve it" or "just because other people get trial WS."

Asuran fists does not help PUP DD better. It does not help PUP skillchain better. It does not help PUP be more wanted in events or parties. It solves no problem that PUP has.

No time should be invested in this whatsoever. Give PUP another unique WS if you want, that does do something to solve a problem. Give PUP something it really needs. Give it anything but Asuran Fists, which it doesn't need at all.

@ AI stuff: I'm not disputing or discussing how the automaton AI works. But NPC AI and the automaton AI are not the same thing, were made at different times, and most likely use their own code. Fixing one doesn't necessarily fix the other.