The Truly 'Elite' Player

I hear all the talk about how this new breed of player, the post-Abyssea ones, are ruining the game with their quick leveling and lack of skills. I also hear from the post-Abyssea players that they are no different than the long-time players. They just leveled faster but are just as skilled. So, let's have S/E lay down the gauntlet. Throw out some ideas for mobs that require skill and little or no luck to beat or claim.

I'll go first.

I'd like to see an HNM that requires the elemental wheel be completed through skill chains and an MB done after each SC. The skill chain can be done in any order but must be topped off with a Dark SC >>> MB and a Light SC >>> MB, in either order. The entire elemental wheel has to occur within a certain time frame from beginning to end. After that task is complete, the mob will take full damage from magic and melee but not before.

Other ideas. I'm sure if you are 1337, you can come up with ideas that separate the men from the boys.

That sounds almost as retarded as the final boss for Chrono Cross.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

That sounds almost as retarded as the final boss for Chrono Cross.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

Brew with Aeolian - Gales / Ultimate / Hell's Guardian (Baying/Beyond I suppose, I don't see anything good past Gales)
Brew with Flash Nova (requires Club Merits) - Beyond / Ultimate or Hell's Guardian / Sellsword
Brew with Sanguine Blade (requires WAR DRK PLD or BLU sub) - Cosmos / Banisher / Ultimate

Solo - Minikin / Beyond / Ultimate if casting, otherwise consider Dark Depths if straight tanking over GH if evasion isn't floored.
DD - Razed / Apoc / Gnarled or Alpha/Omega
Backup Healing: if curing and only curing, Minikin / Rescuer / Harmony (if no Rescuer pick a magic damage atma and nuke imo)
Apoc if you think you're going to die alot and don't feel like bringing RR items.

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Well then, your idea? I see you prefer to brew everything. Any idea on how to actually create a challenge. Or, perhaps you'd rather avoid those.

Truly "elite" players have G-Prime in their Boost macro.

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Originally Posted by Randwolf

Well then, your idea? I see you prefer to brew everything. Any idea on how to actually create a challenge. Or, perhaps you'd rather avoid those.

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You took his quote out of context. The context was "hai, I'm brewing something, which atma set should I use for it? Also, what atma sets should I use for these other things . . ."

Basically, he was commenting on the "what is," rather than the "what should be."

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Originally Posted by Tamarsamar

You took his quote out of context. The context was "hai, I'm brewing something, which atma set should I use for it? Also, what atma sets should I use for these other things . . ."

Basically, he was commenting on the "what is," rather than the "what should be."

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Since I included his whole post, and I don't see any disclaimer to the way you interpret, I'm going to doubt that. And, his post in this thread wasn't adding anything to it. Just being rude. Honestly, people talk about how the new players are plain rude and simply shout if they don't like an idea. You don't find that statement rude? Where is his great idea? You wonder why every thread in here degrades to a shouting match. It's because people have nothing to add. Only to be negative.

Anyway, the point is, what I see is all these supposedly 'elite' players complaining about how the post-Abyssea players are not skilled. And, the only thing they can seem to come up with is "we need to go back to the way it was." Instead of looking at ways to differentiate.

Introducing new content that will be reasonably hard, require more than 2 jobs and where players need to pay attention - without the atma-crutch - will suffice for me. Hopefully that's what we are getting next update.

Randwolf I like your suggestion. The example you gave however could be achieved by bot programs because of the str8 forward nature of the challenge. It would need to be something spontaneous, and unpredictable to require true skill. Thinking, and reacting on the fly. Mid battle strategy change etc.

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Originally Posted by Tamoa

Introducing new content that will be reasonably hard, require more than 2 jobs and where players need to pay attention - without the atma-crutch - will suffice for me. Hopefully that's what we are getting next update.

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Originally Posted by Zaknafein

Randwolf I like your suggestion. The example you gave however could be achieved by bot programs because of the str8 forward nature of the challenge. It would need to be something spontaneous, and unpredictable to require true skill. Thinking, and reacting on the fly. Mid battle strategy change etc.

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Thanks, I had contemplated that. I figure others might have more complex ideas that would be a real challenge. It makes me think about AV and the challenge that was where very few seemed to figure out the strategy S/E had in mind. If you remember, the players answer was the DRK zerg, which S/E said was not what they had in mind.

p.s. - The SC MB idea was because it seems that those skills are a lost art. Something the most rudimentary player used to be able to do yet people seem to not do now because of the perceived waste of TP and MP and/or the lack of ability.

Elite players hahaha dont make me laugh. I haven't even seen too many players who who know how to play their jobs properly.

Nothing is difficult after you've successfully completed it a couple of times. Practice makes perfect.

This is a video game, it's supposed to be enjoyable not difficult to the point of undoable by most people.

I think Abyssea has made most of the game accessible by most of the players and is a really good addition the way it is. A larger group can do everything and more skilled players (i.e. more practised players) can do things with less.

Besides, everyone who has been around the block a couple of times knows that it really doesn't matter how you level to the cap. Your skill and ability at playing the game comes from practice after you hit the cap, not things learnt on the way to the cap.

You could easily make a mob where you're unable to counter/shadow tank/or kite and half the population couldn't kill it.

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Originally Posted by Tamoa

Introducing new content that will be reasonably hard, require more than 2 jobs and where players need to pay attention - without the atma-crutch - will suffice for me. Hopefully that's what we are getting next update.

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Originally Posted by svengalis

Elite players hahaha dont make me laugh. I haven't even seen too many players who who know how to play their jobs properly.

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That's pretty much the idea. Get S/E to add stuff that if you can't play your job correctly, you can't beat the boss, battle, quest, bcnm, whatever. Although they will whine about it, there is no reason people shouldn't be able to play their jobs. Well, at least there shouldn't be as many as we have who can't play their jobs currently.

What the crap are you trying to create AV 2.0?

Elite players are people who dedicate much time and attention to the game mechanics.

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Originally Posted by svengalis

Elite players hahaha dont make me laugh. I haven't even seen too many players who who know how to play their jobs properly.

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Exactly, there was no such thing as 'skill' back in the day, just time consumption and throwing bodies at NMs until they died.

The problem with your idea is that we'll end up with AV/PW before the nerf, and SE will refuse to tell us the proper way to fight them, and no one will be able to figure it out in 3+ years. Instead we'll find ways to glitch the shit and burn it down, then they'll make it so you can't do that, and maybe ban some people, like goblinfootprinting or wallofjusticing AV, or God forbid another LS spending 18 hours fighting an NM cause they don't know how to do it the way SE intended, then giving up out of exhaustion.

But other then that, making mobs that offer a challenge beyond 'zomg it spams this bad AOE' would be a welcome addition.

EDIT: Elite players are the ones who understand the game's mechanics and can play the most efficiently according to them.

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Originally Posted by Andylynn

Exactly, there was no such thing as 'skill' back in the day, just time consumption and throwing bodies at NMs until they died.

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When you have been playing FFXI for 6 months total, saying something like this is NOT a good idea.

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Originally Posted by Andylynn

Exactly, there was no such thing as 'skill' back in the day, just time consumption and throwing bodies at NMs until they died.

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This was only the strategy employed by terrible LS's.

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Originally Posted by Tamoa

When you have been playing FFXI for 6 months total, saying something like this is NOT a good idea.

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Because FFXI was sooooo hard.
HNM? - Throw bodies at it.
AV? - glitch it, or throw drks at it.
Relic? - Invest more time than a part time job on it.
Difficulty? - none
Time Consuming? - Yes

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Originally Posted by Andylynn

Because FFXI was sooooo hard.
HNM? - Throw bodies at it.
AV? - glitch it, or throw drks at it.
Relic? - Invest more time than a part time job on it.
Difficulty? - none
Time Consuming? - Yes

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Thing is, you don't know this first hand. You're just repeating what you have heard and seen others say.

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Originally Posted by Tamoa

Thing is, you don't know this first hand. You're just repeating what you have heard and seen others say.

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Nice counter argument, I really think the game was so much harder pre Abyssea.

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Originally Posted by Tamoa

When you have been playing FFXI for 6 months total, saying something like this is NOT a good idea.

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Thanks. That confirmed my first thought.

While even back in the day there were things at which you could just throw bodies, there were quite many more that required the people in your alliance to at least be competent, if not down-right good. And, yes, there were ways to cheat. But, the skilled players wouldn't use them because the whole idea was to prove yourself. It's also why people in elite armor do not absolutely mean an elite player. Because winning legitimately is not always required to win.

I used to avoid PUG's for things like DM (I did mine in a mixed Melee/Mage group) because you had no idea whether or not that one or two idiots would ruin the run. Now, I definitely won't join a PUG that is doing something hard. You usually get 3 - 4 players who don't have ws's, magic, or know how to use their JA's (have to love Thieves who never Collaborate even when the WHM is getting beaten to crap).

So, yeah, I'm not really looking for 'elite' players. I just want ones who can competently do their jobs. And, it would be nice if some of the new gear dropped from hard mobs which required you to actually use basic skills. And since I have been playing for longer than 6 months, I can say with assurance, the game did used to require more skill than it does now.

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Originally Posted by Andylynn

Nice counter argument, I really think the game was so much harder pre Abyssea.

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You making a statement on how hard/easy FFXI was before Abyssea, is like me telling you how hard/easy WoW is @ max level. I have played WoW for about 10 days, got to lvl 20 and was utterly bored with it. That doesn't mean I know jack shit about what WoW endgame is like.

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Originally Posted by Randwolf

So, yeah, I'm not really looking for 'elite' players. I just want ones who can competently do their jobs. And, it would be nice if some of the new gear dropped from hard mobs which required you to actually use basic skills. And since I have been playing for longer than 6 months, I can say with assurance, the game did used to require more skill than it does now.

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Exactly.

Not saying it was hard, but if you wanted to do endgame successfully (and by that I do NOT mean throwing bodies at NMs), you had to know your job and pay attention.

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Originally Posted by Randwolf

Well then, your idea? I see you prefer to brew everything. Any idea on how to actually create a challenge. Or, perhaps you'd rather avoid those.

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People can play the game however they want. Who are you to dictate how other people "should" play the game. If you want a challenge, there are plenty of them out there. If you don't care about challenge, then fine, whatever. Let them do things how they want, and you can do things how you want. Everyone wins.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

People can play the game however they want. Who are you to dictate how other people "should" play the game. If you want a challenge, there are plenty of them out there. If you don't care about challenge, then fine, whatever. Let them do things how they want, and you can do things how you want. Everyone wins.

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Until they start whining because it takes skills to beat the tough stuff. Skills they never learned because it wasn't required. So, yeah. I agree with you as long as they don't mind not being able to do certain things in the game because they were added for the challenge factor.

It's all a bunch of hogwash. There isn't really a problem here and never will be. People just need something to talk down to feel superior right now because they don't have end game exclusive to them to talk trash. Leeched players do not effect elite players any whatsoever because they all have their linkshells and they don't dare bother mingling with lowbie lifeforms outside of their linkshells except to talk trash to a competing linkshell. This is the case, plain and simple. They might be pissed they have to share Abyssea with outsiders but whatever. What the hell else is new?

As for the leeched players as I call them for a lack of a better word beyond newbie, it's a lot of high hoping going on in that camp. It takes years to be a veteran of any job and you can only understand what I am saying when you are in fact a veteran. It's an entirely different ball game from back when you were a noob of your chosen job. It's about experience and confidence unmatched. A good way to put this debate to an end would be to take a known newbie RDM and a known veteran RDM to Sky and tell them to go solo Gods. I will guarantee you the veteran will walk circles around the newbie. They will panic less, if at all, and they most certainly will kill faster. The veteran will feel no sweat. The newbie will be sweating because they are trying to prove something that cannot be proven. I'm sorry, really, I am. But as with everything else in life it takes a lot of experience before you become a true professional at your profession. It's a simple fact of life. I stress, it's not about skill. It's easy to play this game. It's about experience. People confuse the two A LOT.

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Originally Posted by Novax

You could easily make a mob where you're unable to counter/shadow tank/or kite and half the population couldn't kill it.

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Oh, I don't know about that. Most MMORPG players are veterans when it comes to cure bombing the tank job. They should really be veterans by now from Abyssea if they weren't before. Sitting there cure bombing the tank for encounters is as old as MMORPGs. And FFXI certainly had it's share of it early on before people started using Utsusemi to their advantage. I've been saying for weeks now... toss us some boss fights that only PLD can realistically tank. I'll have a good chuckle over it when people moan about the return of PLD turtle tank.

[sarcasm]

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I think they should be 1-20 Day spawns, and in order for it to spawn someone has to be actively camping it for at least 15 hours. Furthermore, I really think to make it enjoyable, the NM should only have ~0.5% Drop rate on its good items. So its really really hardcore, So when I'm in town, I can feel like I'm cool. I need a Bigger E-peen.

And they should spawn in the middle of Soul Flayers and Imps, True-Sight mobs, SO while you're actively camping them you're forced to fight things. and if anyone dies it resets its spawn timer, regardless of it being killed or not. That'd be super fun. Also, At least 2 Souflayers and an Imp need to be killed every 10 minutes in order for the HNM to pop, if it doesn't happen, the Window Resets back to 1-20 days. That'd be SUPER Hardcore.

They should also make sure it drops the best items in the game, So people are forced into those Soulflayer-Imp camps to get these items, for at least 1-20 days. That way the armor is really exclusive and rare. It'd be so much fun if you ask me. Days of the Casuals need to end.

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[/sarcasm]

I didn't feel like retyping this so i'll copy it here from the NM thread. Also, If you want challenge and not just an NM you can horde E-peen gear over, Try getting people you know to do Abyssea without Atmas, That'll rip you apart quick. You can even work your way up. Start in Visions zones, to Scars, then to Heroes, See how many things you can kill with no Atmas. That'll be an accomplishment worthy of an "Elite".

Truthfully though, I never liked the term "Elite" though. Cause its inaccurate. People all have their own meaning of it. some people think you can only be elite with the best gear. Some think you can be elite by knowing the game, how it works, and gearing to your best. There is really no base-line outside of Opinion. Some people feel you can only be elite if you like Taking a hammer to your Genitals daily (A.K.A Camping Kings).

I think games can present a challenge without a Gimic involved. But the problem is the challenge won't last forever. once a strategy is had, once you get a Rhythm the challenge will be gone. There is no way to make an "Absolutely always challenging mob" Without making it on the level of "Fk" as AV, where it was just a bunch of gimics and impossible-to-deal-with AoE damage, amongst other things.

Basically, [corny], I feel an Elite is someone who knows the game, Experiences it the best way they can, and Actually Enjoy the game without needing to make multiple complaint threads on how terrible the game is and how bad the direction its going. I think Elite players are those who can play the game for what it is, With friends, And enjoy every minute of it. [/corny]

I'm elite

My thought on the HNM's is to look at each part and determine if it is a challenge or is designed to actually keep you from fighting it in the first place. I mean for Faf, I could leave my niece at the controller and say "When the big dragon pops, hit this button and call me." My niece who has never played could get lucky and claim Faf. So, I really don't like anything that involves primarily luck (or bots) to even fight in the first place. Same goes with anything that can be melee zerged or burned to death.

So, whatever they introduce, I hope they make sure it takes multiple skill sets (like timing and reading the mob) not just claim and perform the same ability over and over.

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Originally Posted by Randwolf

Any idea on how to actually create a challenge. Or, perhaps you'd rather avoid those.

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You will not be able to achieve challenge as soon as competition with others is involved, wether it is against a ??? (sky,abyssea) or a NM (abysseahaha, NMs, sky, blabla). You don't offer challenge by cockblocking too much either ( tiered NM system like VnM, ZnM, sea) because people spend their time not killing stuff, which is not entertaining. The only thing left is instanced area with entry limitation. Once this is done, put a time limit and many NMs to kill (within reason, and without relying on 18-man, stick to 6-man) and give the final thing some kind of low droprate. Mix salvage dynamis and Nyzul pretty much.

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Originally Posted by Randwolf

Well then, your idea? I see you prefer to brew everything. Any idea on how to actually create a challenge. Or, perhaps you'd rather avoid those.

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delevel and beat AV at 75?

could just level sync.

Even levelling the old way, you dont SC or MB anymore, so you'd not know how to. :D lulz. Also you're more than likely forced to level sync below your level, meaning no skillups. You also dont instantly have the knowledge to kill HNMs because you levelled the old way!

But who cares? At the end of the day, the best player is the one with the highest numbers and thats it. Cap your skills, (numbers), get some merits (numbers) get some pimp gear (more numbers) and you've got all the numbers to be elite.

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Originally Posted by Randwolf

I hear all the talk about how this new breed of player, the post-Abyssea ones, are ruining the game with their quick leveling and lack of skills. I also hear from the post-Abyssea players that they are no different than the long-time players. They just leveled faster but are just as skilled. So, let's have S/E lay down the gauntlet. Throw out some ideas for mobs that require skill and little or no luck to beat or claim.

I'll go first.

I'd like to see an HNM that requires the elemental wheel be completed through skill chains and an MB done after each SC. The skill chain can be done in any order but must be topped off with a Dark SC >>> MB and a Light SC >>> MB, in either order. The entire elemental wheel has to occur within a certain time frame from beginning to end. After that task is complete, the mob will take full damage from magic and melee but not before.

Other ideas. I'm sure if you are 1337, you can come up with ideas that separate the men from the boys.

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My Simple suggestion as the level 95 limit Break to unlock the last levels to 99, is that for every job you want to get to 99. You have to go through a set of trials to prove you are skilled enough to be at the top tier. This culminates in a Fight with a Prominent NPC of that job. (For Example for Paladin's you would fight Curilla) But there would be so much whining and bitching about this that it would never be implemented.

You can already tell who is good and who is not just by how they play, if they brag about their Perle/Aurore/Teal gear, or just how they communicate in general in the party.

I think this game NEEDS challenges like AV. Since that is beaten we need a new one. One that does take years to beat. One that requires extensive trials and strategy reworking.
Most people wont ever fight it and most wont even want to fight it but it is THERE for those, who want, to butt their heads against in the valiant attempt!
There always has to the unattainable mountain to climb.
Experience is the key. Level isnt. I am, at best, a mediocre whm but I will put my experience up against any 6 month leech leveled whm in the game.
We all have our niches in the game. Abyssea is great. It lets people play it in all sorts of ways. What ever suits them best. Now we need the challenges for the aggressive experienced players. I am not one of them but I see them every day and they need something hard in the game to challenge them.

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One that does take years to beat

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We should implement in-game DUIs.
Those things are fu**in challenging.

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Originally Posted by Teraniku

My Simple suggestion as the level 95 limit Break to unlock the last levels to 99, is that for every job you want to get to 99. You have to go through a set of trials to prove you are skilled enough to be at the top tier. This culminates in a Fight with a Prominent NPC of that job. (For Example for Paladin's you would fight Curilla) But there would be so much whining and bitching about this that it would never be implemented.

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I actually like this idea. I hope that we have to do that. That would be outstanding to have to fight the "best" NPC out there for our job.

I for one wouldn't mind taking a crack at Shantotto and stuffing my staff up her....you know.

That laugh always gets on my nerves.

I just wanted toss my 2 cents in being elite can be a new player or old. Its understanding your job and how you play with other ppl or solo or react to a nm. Of course having specific skill in something doesnt always need to be had. Example my friend smn burned his smn and uses it highly effect. To be elitest doesnt meen you have the best gear the best atmas its your ability to understand the game and your role in the party or solo and how you fit in. ( I for one dont always like being the so called best dressed best atma person... i would rather see others around me be that way )
The only true way I think would be to have a bcnm fight or simialr where the mob(s) did everything random and you had react against what they do. That way no stategy could be used off wikki or similar. Designing something needs a specific elemental wheel could be done by people who use windower or simialar (like your orginal idea). I actualy hate the term. i learn something everyday be it a old player or new. Every person might have a alternative way to do something. Some just more effective. I am a true beleiver you are only as strong as the friend you play with ... its a good ffxi motto ppl should incoperate ~
~just food for thought.

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Originally Posted by Teraniku

My Simple suggestion as the level 95 limit Break to unlock the last levels to 99, is that for every job you want to get to 99. You have to go through a set of trials to prove you are skilled enough to be at the top tier. This culminates in a Fight with a Prominent NPC of that job. (For Example for Paladin's you would fight Curilla) But there would be so much whining and bitching about this that it would never be implemented.

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I don't think people would be bitching as long as the challenge was fair. Fair would be fighting a fully merited and skilled-up opponent of your same job. Unfair would be fighting an opponent with one-billion HP and some crazy one-shot special attack to which you have no access.

I exaggerate, but you get my meaning.