Hvergelmir WTF SE

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Originally Posted by Economizer

But it isn't for TP, it is for the MP. A Summoner having 800-1000 MP is generally better then a Samurai having 100-200 TP, unless your goal is to lots of damage RIGHT NOW.

Same for a Black Mage or Scholar. Shoot, with a Scholar you can now return the TP using Embrava, so even in a zerg it could be a good idea.

Creative problem solving can make for good gameplay.

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The Summoner shouldn't need that TP to keep their MP up, so in most cases a SAM with 100-200%TP is infinitely more useful than a SMN being given the same. At this stage in the game any decently geared SMN should be almost autonomous in a party, definitely to the point where we don't need a SAM wasting TP to give them TP so they can regain MP they wouldn't have lost if properly geared.

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The Summoner shouldn't need that TP to keep their MP up, so in most cases a SAM with 100-200%TP is infinitely more useful than a SMN being given the same

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I disagree with that statement. Several hundred MP gained by a summoner will produce more total damage than that 100-200 TP used by the SAM. Not in the same amount of time, no, but over the course of any fight of significant length. It's not like the summoner would be constantly draining that SAM's TP, either. That several hundred MP will last for several minutes, in which time the SAM will have collected 100 TP and used a weapon skill several times over. It is of very little detriment to the SAM to do this- I actually see it as quite powerful- It's almost like a strong Devotion with a shorter recast.

I even say all this totally ignoring the fact that Myrkr doesn't just give you MP, it can also remove multiple status effects at once (Sadly, not doom it seems :p), including the silence that may be preventing you from casting.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I disagree with that statement. Several hundred MP gained by a summoner will produce more total damage than that 100-200 TP used by the SAM. Not in the same amount of time, no, but over the course of any fight of significant length. It's not like the summoner would be constantly draining that SAM's TP, either. That several hundred MP will last for several minutes, in which time the SAM will have collected 100 TP and used a weapon skill several times over. It is of very little detriment to the SAM to do this- I actually see it as quite powerful- It's almost like a strong Devotion with a shorter recast.

I even say all this totally ignoring the fact that Myrkr doesn't just give you MP, it can also remove multiple status effects at once (Sadly, not doom it seems :p), including the silence that may be preventing you from casting.

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Exactly. There are situations where even a SMN will run low on MP. When that time comes, a SAM passing along 100 TP is not going to put any form of strain on the SAM. The SAM will still have 100 TP to WS and the mage will now have the means of restoring their MP as well as erasing three status ailments that may be causing a problem.

If the job ability read:

Shikikoyo - Restores a Mage party member's MP and removes 3 status ailments from them.

I'd say that's a sweet deal for any group.

There are mages who don't carry echo drops, what?

Except Myrkr is self cast only though. Status removal doesn't work for the whole party. And mages that don't carry echo drops... I make a bad habit of forgetting to replenish echo drops when I'm out and about.

Already been proven that I'm an idiot in some regards so yeah.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I disagree with that statement. Several hundred MP gained by a summoner will produce more total damage than that 100-200 TP used by the SAM. Not in the same amount of time, no, but over the course of any fight of significant length. It's not like the summoner would be constantly draining that SAM's TP, either. That several hundred MP will last for several minutes, in which time the SAM will have collected 100 TP and used a weapon skill several times over. It is of very little detriment to the SAM to do this- I actually see it as quite powerful- It's almost like a strong Devotion with a shorter recast.

I even say all this totally ignoring the fact that Myrkr doesn't just give you MP, it can also remove multiple status effects at once (Sadly, not doom it seems :p), including the silence that may be preventing you from casting.

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Disagreeing doesn't alter the fact that "The Summoner shouldn't need that TP to keep their MP up". Any halfway decent set will give free Avatars unconditionally, and if you've spent more than a week gearing your SMN you should be getting a reasonable number refresh back with them out. This is all of course before considering elemental siphon and any subjob MP management abilities, there's absolutely no reason a SMN should be in need of several hundred MP at any time. Also as was mentioned in the post above I carry echos full time.

I'm not attacking the playstyle or the weapon here, don't wanna start that argument again, just saying that SMN needs to go out of it's way to run out of MP nowadays, so there should never be a need for you to ask a SAM if they have shikikoyo merited before a fight because you may need the MP halfway through a battle.

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Originally Posted by Razushu

The Summoner shouldn't need that TP to keep their MP up"

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What of the BLM that could benefit from MP restoration? They would only have to equip the staff, get the TP via Shikikoyo, use the WS, then go back to nuking sticks.

Not to mention that Silence isn't the only status ailment to ever plague a mage. Using the WS is a one hit wonder again paralyze since weaponskills can't be paralyzed. Max MP down is another as well as Gravity. If you were inflicted with these all at once, you could easily wipe them all with one WS and not have to even get within melee distance.

Doesn't really work that way for BLM or SCH. Regardless of Solo'ing or in a party, BLM and SCH have better staves to be swapping in and out to increase the effectiveness of their spells than keep Hvergelmir equipped or bother with it's weapon skill. Especially tying up a SAM on the fly for it. Using it specifically to remove status effects are negligible too. That's erase is for. I know BLM don't natively have it but most are SCH or WHM for it. Or even RDM to mitigate MP usuage.

A smart nuker knows when to stop casting to keep from getting hate and move out the way when that max HP/MP down starts in WoE.

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Originally Posted by Alerith

What of the BLM that could benefit from MP restoration? They would only have to equip the staff, get the TP via Shikikoyo, use the WS, then go back to nuking sticks.

Not to mention that Silence isn't the only status ailment to ever plague a mage. Using the WS is a one hit wonder again paralyze since weaponskills can't be paralyzed. Max MP down is another as well as Gravity. If you were inflicted with these all at once, you could easily wipe them all with one WS and not have to even get within melee distance.

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I'm not a BLM so I can't speak for how well they manage MP.

If I'm fighting something that nasty I'll be staying well out of range of those abilities just in case. Your solution is predicated on the assumption your just sitting round in the empyrean at 100%+TP, waiting for this scenario, which is probably not going to be the case. Seeing as if you were a BLM you'd be gimping your nukes, and if you were a SMN you'd be bleeding MP(unless you had a good perp set - the staff), while hurting the damage from your BPs(esp. magical ones) also, by locking in a staff that does nothing for them.

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Originally Posted by Raksha

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/103...=1#post4792772

The 2 links in that post point to testing.

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I know Kegsay's work well. I just disagreed with him. There's far too much evidence that avatars are high damage, low attack instead of high attack, low damage. The latter would hit like a normal melee against most mobs, but everyone and their cat knows an avatar hits like a BLM *except* against high def mobs [when it hits like a gimp DRK].

Whatever avatar stats are @95, they are lower than Hver SMN. Carbuncle @75 was weaker than a SMN using Martial Staff. That's why I believe he was always wrong on at least one major assumption.

Source: http://kegsay.livejournal.com/

http://forums.ffxiclopedia.org/viewt...p?f=17&t=19875

Yah, the dates are right. He went a different path after meeting me.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

I know Kegsay's work well. I just disagreed with him. There's far too much evidence that avatars are high damage, low attack instead of high attack, low damage. The latter would hit like a normal melee against most mobs, but everyone and their cat knows an avatar hits like a BLM *except* against high def mobs [when it hits like a gimp DRK].

Whatever avatar stats are @95, they are lower than Hver SMN. Carbuncle @75 was weaker than a SMN using Martial Staff. That's why I believe he was always wrong on at least one major assumption.

Source: http://kegsay.livejournal.com/

http://forums.ffxiclopedia.org/viewt...p?f=17&t=19875

Yah, the dates are right. He went a different path after meeting me.

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EDIT: NVM found it.

If you've already looked at kegsay's data and still believe your own theory then I don't know how to explain it to you.

Here is an attempt:
* Kegsay added Strength to his avatar using Ecliptic Growl at different moon phases. (top)
* He saw that minimum damage increased after a certain number of STR, and then again after about 4 more STR past that. (there is some weirdness with his data because he was fighting two types of monster and they have different VIT)
* Because he saw damage increase like this, he could determine that +1 base damage increased the minimum damage by 4. Therefore, pDIF = 4 at capped cRatio.
* You can take the 4 and divide it by whatever you want, then call it a "___ pDIF with an x% damage bonus", but it's the same as just calling it 4 to start with. It's already known that Monster and Player pDIF equations are different somehow, and that avatars and pets follow the monster equations, so there's no real need to arbitrarily introduce a constant.

Here's how I explain it to you, Byrth:
"Celestial Avatars have 504 attack at Level 75. Carbuncle has more. Fenrir even more.
I estimate that Fenrir has around 570 attack."

That's L75 stats. At L95, a melee SMN with 430 attack deals more damage hit-for-hit than all avatars. Avatars are weaker than all SMN who wield the weapon this thread is about. Whatever this "kegsay attack" stat represents, it doesn't bear any resemblance to "attack."

Batman SMN like yourself are free to invent any numbers you like. I still don't see anyone but melee SMN arguing for avatar melee.

I think you maybe just don't understand what pDIF means. pDIF is the function that relates base damage to the observed damage. It depends on the attacker's attack, the defender's defense, and (for players) the difference in level between the two characters.

Saying, "That attack is too high, because the pDIF equation looks too steep" is stupid, because the pDIF equation is whatever the pDIF equation is. We know almost nothing about the Avatar/monster pDIF equation, except that it's obviously different from the player pDIF equation.

Kegsay's method for determining avatar attack was theoretically sound, but he was limited by the amount of Avatar Attack+ equipment available. It would be more accurate if we went to Abyssea and had the avatar melee one type of EM monster, using Atma to boost its Attack between samples. That would give us several well defined points.

Here is what you're proposing: Avatar Damage range = Avatar_pDIF(Attack, Defense)*Base Damage*1.5
Here is what I'm proposing: Avatar Damage range = Avatar_pDIF(Attack, Defense)*Base Damage

So you're adding an unnecessary constant that there's no evidence for. Our knowledge of base damage is sound (per the fSTR tests), and any constant like what you're proposing could undetectably be absorbed into Avatar_pDIF.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Here's how I explain it to you, Byrth:
"Celestial Avatars have 504 attack at Level 75. Carbuncle has more. Fenrir even more.
I estimate that Fenrir has around 570 attack."

That's L75 stats. At L95, a melee SMN with 430 attack deals more damage hit-for-hit than all avatars. Avatars are weaker than all SMN who wield the weapon this thread is about. Whatever this "kegsay attack" stat represents, it doesn't bear any resemblance to "attack."

Batman SMN like yourself are free to invent any numbers you like. I still don't see anyone but melee SMN arguing for avatar melee.

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I'm guessing that a lvl 90 SMN hits harder than its avatar because you're using a D98 weapon and (in abyssea) have capped (or close) fstr. But I dont really know much about the melee dmg formula.

If in side abyssea, then of course SMN would hit harder than their avatars with Hvergelmir or any physical staff with high damage because avatars don't benefit from crour buffs to balance their physical attack with those in abyssea. When I mentioned doing the near same damage on average with avatars with it, it was outside of abyssea at Cape Terrigan on EP and DC mobs. wasn't a thorough test but yeah. Same when I'm building TP in other areas like Sea or in aht urghan areas. If he thought I meant in abyssea when I made my statement of how much damage I was dealing in comparison with avatars, sorry for not being clear on that.

It's really hard to determine the formula of avatar attack in abyssea because of this because without using atma, avatars most notably weaker.

On ep/dc mobs you'd have more or less the same situation. D98 weapon compared to whatever your avatars base D is (i'm guessing its not D98)

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

There are mages who don't carry echo drops, what?

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The mages who need to use fewer echo drops, what?

It's just a perk, not an excuse to not carry echo drops.

If you're seriously going to try advocating myrkr to remove silence when you can use an echo/remedy, achieve same result, and remove virtually the same ailments in the case of remedy bar bad luck on para then...

Don't use inventory/gil as an excuse either, they are not expensive and I know for a fact your inventory isn't capped on Smn.

It's just a perk, not an excuse to not carry echo drops. Besides, as I said, Myrkr can remove multiple status effects- If you happen to be afflicted with anything and need the MP at the same time, Myrkr simply does that much more. It's an additional benefit. Icing on the cake.

/imitates Cait Sith

Point is, it's a functional, useful weapon skill, pretty much more so than any other weapon skill available to a mage.

I already mentioned remedies. I'm not denying it is useful, but it is not as big of an increase (in terms of status removal bar paralyze) as you're making it out to be.

Obv it comes out ahead in MP regeneration ... for a weaponskill.

It comes out ahead of several other forms of MP recovery, not that you can't also use those as well. It is a handy tool with good utility. If it's within your means to get it and use it, there's no reason not to have it, other than to protest the fact that it doesn't have the stats you personally want from it.

Myrkr removes more status effects than remedies, so I don't really care that you already mentioned remedies.

You say I'm making it out to be better than it is, but you're making it out to be not as good as it is.

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Originally Posted by Raksha

On ep/dc mobs you'd have more or less the same situation. D98 weapon compared to whatever your avatars base D is (i'm guessing its not D98)

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Every SMN who took the time to level to 250 staff skill was doing more damage than Carby, against any mob, with a 56 damage staff. This is common knowledge to anyone outside of Bat Galka headquarters.

Since you are making the failflakes argument that attack doesn't matter against EP/DC, tell me where 328 attack 56 damage (melee SMN) stands against 231 defense, then tell me where 500+ "kegsay attack", 50 "kegsay damage" stands. All of these numbers have been available for over a year.

Common knowledge is the correct answer. You can't magically make Carby not suck more than melee SMN.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Every SMN who took the time to level to 250 staff skill was doing more damage than Carby, against any mob, with a 56 damage staff. This is common knowledge to anyone outside of Bat Galka headquarters.

Since you are making the failflakes argument that attack doesn't matter against EP/DC, tell me where 328 attack 56 damage (melee SMN) stands against 231 defense, then tell me where 500+ "kegsay attack", 50 "kegsay damage" stands. All of these numbers have been available for over a year.

Common knowledge is the correct answer. You can't magically make Carby not suck more than melee SMN.

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/shrug like i said I dont know anything about the melee dmg forumla other than looking at it and doing basic math.

Looking at your ffxiclopedia forum post I see every avatar except carbuncle outdmging you (I only read the first post, don't care that much about this to dig any deeper). What was the sample size for that carbuncle data? I notice you only have data for the lvl 63 colibris.

There's a funny little thing called day-of-the-week. Pick the wrong day, and all mobs are more likely to be their maximum level. As no person serious about avatar damage ever picks Carby, it didn't seem to make sense to complete the data. Some guy defending bad numbers from Kegsay 2 years later CERTAINLY isn't a good reason.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

There's a funny little thing called day-of-the-week. Pick the wrong day, and all mobs are more likely to be their maximum level. As no person serious about avatar damage ever picks Carby, it didn't seem to make sense to complete the data. Some guy defending bad numbers from Kegsay 2 years later CERTAINLY isn't a good reason.

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About the only thing I give a shit less about than hvergelmir is avatar stats. So congratulations you figured out avatar stats. You win.

Yeah, that's about par for every anti-DD poster that arrives.

I compared +40 STR to +20 Attack in Abyssea, and +40 STR did 18% more damage. Avatars have low base damage and high pDIF.

Used RR/MM as my base to keep a pretty even split of crit/noncrits.

No third Atma: 45~75 normal hit, 120~173 Crit
Entwined Serpents: 47~74 normal hit, 123~176 Crit (+20 Attack)
Harvester: 56~87 normal hit, 137~200 Crit (+40 STR)

If +40 STR (+10 base damage) gets a ~10~20% increase, then we have approximately 50~70 base damage.

Avatar: Garuda
Target: EM Amuckatrice in Abyssea - Attohwa

So, you missed Kegsay's comment how STR improves base damage? 20 attack < 20 attack + base damage. Nice one, Sherlock.

Holy crap close this thread already

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Originally Posted by Dallas

So, you missed Kegsay's comment how STR improves base damage? 20 attack < 20 attack + base damage. Nice one, Sherlock.

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The three cases were:
+0 Attack
+20 Attack
+40 STR (and thus +20 Attack)

I compared +40 STR (and thus +20 Attack) to +20 Attack. The avatar shows a minor (almost undetectable) improvement when you go from +0 attack to +20 Attack, and a major improvement when you add +40 STR (base damage). This shows that Avatars have high attack and low base damage.

I would bet that you can stack all the Attack atma at the same time and not get the same benefit that I showed from +40 STR.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

The three cases were:
+0 Attack
+20 Attack
+40 STR (and thus +20 Attack)

I compared +40 STR (and thus +20 Attack) to +20 Attack. The avatar shows a minor (almost undetectable) improvement when you go from +0 attack to +20 Attack, and a major improvement when you add +40 STR (base damage). This shows that Avatars have high attack and low base damage.

I would bet that you can stack all the Attack atma at the same time and not get the same benefit that I showed from +40 STR.

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I've seen this myself from using various atma combinations, so as far as I can tell, it's a reasonable assessment of avatar's damage characteristics.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

This shows that Avatars have high attack and low base damage.

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Your assumption that the formula is right does not prove that the formula is right. It only shows that you know how to plug numbers into a wrong formula.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Your assumption that the formula is right does not prove that the formula is right. It only shows that you know how to plug numbers into a wrong formula.

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Prove that it's wrong then. You'd be correct in stating that just because numbers happen to fit a forumla does not guarantee that the formula is accurate. That being said, just calling something wrong without backing it up doesn't discount a reasonable argument.

Of course,t hat's how you seem to approach everything here. You make controversial statements, then when people come and challenge it, you don't back it up. You just call them wrong and expect that to counter everything.

Please collect a large sample of data from a controlled test yourself that demonstrates some other formula is more accurate, or link to someone elses good faith efort to do the same instead of just declaring stuff to be wrong. Then people might be more willing to take you the least bit seriously.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Your assumption that the formula is right does not prove that the formula is right. It only shows that you know how to plug numbers into a wrong formula.

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We know that strength adds base damage and attack. We don't technically know the ratio. STR:ATK could be anything from 1:1 to 2:1, and STR:BD could be anything from 2:1 to 5:1. Kegsay's test indicated 5STR:1BD, but he tested on two monster populations that had different VITs so he could have missed fSTR going up one. 4STR:1BD is most probable in my opinion.

Still, if you compare the +20 Attack case to the +0 Attack case, you see a modest to unobservable difference. That in itself is no big news. Some pDIF equations have plateaus, so perhaps I was in a plateau. Adding STR, on the other hand, resulted in a very large change. If we know that attack results in a modest change, then we can conclude that the added base damage from STR caused the majority of the effect.

Now, if you look at the link to Kegsay's Fenrir testing that I linked earlier, you'll find the proof that the ratio of STR to Base damage is fairly high. 4 or 5 STR for 1 base damage. So I'm not adding a large amount of base damage when I stack on 40 STR. If a modest increase in base damage results in a sizable increase in damage dealt, then original base damage must have been small.

I don't have a parser at the moment, so everything was done with by going through my chat log and looking for higher highs and lower lows after every Cockatrice. I don't intend to continue this until I have a better method, because it's a pain and it isn't really pressing.

Well in other news that no one has seem to have reported on. Hvergelmir isn't a tool meant solely for being melee because of it's high damage. It is a staff for mages, thinking about it from a melee stand point strickly is pretty much the wrong way to go it. For example, SMN that own it and use it in battle to melee during campaign battles, but there's still no room for SCH or BLM to go in and fight on the front lines.

However SE has pushing voidwatch as the next endgame activity pretty hard. Since people here seem to show some disdain for voidwatch, no one has seemed to want to mention that you get temp items when you start and every time you proc. Of these items is a Dusty Wing. Instant 300% useless to most mages outside of BLU, but a SMN, BLM, or SCH with Hvergelmir can pop these quickly for MP restoration when say sublimation is charging/down or if you have an avatar out attempting to proc and don't want to waste time using elemental siphon or already did so. It's highly doubtful that each of these jobs are CONSTANTLY doing something where they can't spare the minute it takes to use this. Plus it removes the risk of having to engage the enemy at close range for spirit taker. And yes, ailment removal is a nice perk to it.

It's not a full time staff, but it has it's uses and after using in various endgame situations, it is pretty invaluable for BLM and SCH to have, however SMN do tend to see the most benefit from this. It increases MP longevity.

Why wouldn't a Sch in a campaign battle melee with hverg? They're probably the second best job to do so with it since they can self skillchain.

MP longevity is not the problem for all 3 jobs with or without the staff.

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Why wouldn't a Sch in a campaign battle melee with hverg? They're probably the second best job to do so with it since they can self skillchain.

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Oh yeah I forgot, summoner can't self skillchai- oh wait, yes they can. SMN just doesn't skillchain much because that means using either a worse blood pact than normal or a worse weaponskill than normal. It's different when using an NPC fellow though. I like chaining with the NPC and using a magic pact to magic burst. Sadly, NPCs won't participate in campaign.

Dusky Wing -> WS is fine and good, but I dualbox Black Mages during Voidwatch, spam proc spells, and never run out of MP. As long as your group procs at a decent clip, you shouldn't be reduced to using wings.

You start with 2 Lucid Ether IIs (1000 MP) and each get 2 Mana Powders (25% MP restored per use and 2 per person, so you're looking at 3 MP bars per temp-restoring weakness stagger if you have a 6 man party). Toss in Aspir (or Elemental Siphon) and Convert, and I'm wondering why anyone ever brings up Dusty Wings.

>.<
I concede. I haven't gotten far in voidwatch so I didn't know the number and type of temp items you get increase. Regardless though, I found use for my hvergelmir since I already own one. I see no reason to ignore it.