Hvergelmir WTF SE

[Razushu]

But it isn't for TP, it is for the MP. A Summoner having 800-1000 MP is generally better then a Samurai having 100-200 TP, unless your goal is to lots of damage RIGHT NOW.

Same for a Black Mage or Scholar. Shoot, with a Scholar you can now return the TP using Embrava, so even in a zerg it could be a good idea.

Creative problem solving can make for good gameplay.

The Summoner shouldn't need that TP to keep their MP up, so in most cases a SAM with 100-200%TP is infinitely more useful than a SMN being given the same. At this stage in the game any decently geared SMN should be almost autonomous in a party, definitely to the point where we don't need a SAM wasting TP to give them TP so they can regain MP they wouldn't have lost if properly geared.

[Alhanelem]

The Summoner shouldn't need that TP to keep their MP up, so in most cases a SAM with 100-200%TP is infinitely more useful than a SMN being given the same

I disagree with that statement. Several hundred MP gained by a summoner will produce more total damage than that 100-200 TP used by the SAM. Not in the same amount of time, no, but over the course of any fight of significant length. It's not like the summoner would be constantly draining that SAM's TP, either. That several hundred MP will last for several minutes, in which time the SAM will have collected 100 TP and used a weapon skill several times over. It is of very little detriment to the SAM to do this- I actually see it as quite powerful- It's almost like a strong Devotion with a shorter recast.

I even say all this totally ignoring the fact that Myrkr doesn't just give you MP, it can also remove multiple status effects at once (Sadly, not doom it seems ), including the silence that may be preventing you from casting.

[Alerith]

I disagree with that statement. Several hundred MP gained by a summoner will produce more total damage than that 100-200 TP used by the SAM. Not in the same amount of time, no, but over the course of any fight of significant length. It's not like the summoner would be constantly draining that SAM's TP, either. That several hundred MP will last for several minutes, in which time the SAM will have collected 100 TP and used a weapon skill several times over. It is of very little detriment to the SAM to do this- I actually see it as quite powerful- It's almost like a strong Devotion with a shorter recast.

I even say all this totally ignoring the fact that Myrkr doesn't just give you MP, it can also remove multiple status effects at once (Sadly, not doom it seems ), including the silence that may be preventing you from casting.

Exactly. There are situations where even a SMN will run low on MP. When that time comes, a SAM passing along 100 TP is not going to put any form of strain on the SAM. The SAM will still have 100 TP to WS and the mage will now have the means of restoring their MP as well as erasing three status ailments that may be causing a problem.

If the job ability read:

Shikikoyo - Restores a Mage party member's MP and removes 3 status ailments from them.

I'd say that's a sweet deal for any group.

[Neisan_Quetz]

There are mages who don't carry echo drops, what?

[Soranika]

Except Myrkr is self cast only though. Status removal doesn't work for the whole party. And mages that don't carry echo drops... I make a bad habit of forgetting to replenish echo drops when I'm out and about.

Already been proven that I'm an idiot in some regards so yeah.

[Razushu]

I disagree with that statement. Several hundred MP gained by a summoner will produce more total damage than that 100-200 TP used by the SAM. Not in the same amount of time, no, but over the course of any fight of significant length. It's not like the summoner would be constantly draining that SAM's TP, either. That several hundred MP will last for several minutes, in which time the SAM will have collected 100 TP and used a weapon skill several times over. It is of very little detriment to the SAM to do this- I actually see it as quite powerful- It's almost like a strong Devotion with a shorter recast.

I even say all this totally ignoring the fact that Myrkr doesn't just give you MP, it can also remove multiple status effects at once (Sadly, not doom it seems ), including the silence that may be preventing you from casting.

Disagreeing doesn't alter the fact that "The Summoner shouldn't need that TP to keep their MP up". Any halfway decent set will give free Avatars unconditionally, and if you've spent more than a week gearing your SMN you should be getting a reasonable number refresh back with them out. This is all of course before considering elemental siphon and any subjob MP management abilities, there's absolutely no reason a SMN should be in need of several hundred MP at any time. Also as was mentioned in the post above I carry echos full time.

I'm not attacking the playstyle or the weapon here, don't wanna start that argument again, just saying that SMN needs to go out of it's way to run out of MP nowadays, so there should never be a need for you to ask a SAM if they have shikikoyo merited before a fight because you may need the MP halfway through a battle.

[Alerith]

The Summoner shouldn't need that TP to keep their MP up"

What of the BLM that could benefit from MP restoration? They would only have to equip the staff, get the TP via Shikikoyo, use the WS, then go back to nuking sticks.

Not to mention that Silence isn't the only status ailment to ever plague a mage. Using the WS is a one hit wonder again paralyze since weaponskills can't be paralyzed. Max MP down is another as well as Gravity. If you were inflicted with these all at once, you could easily wipe them all with one WS and not have to even get within melee distance.

[Soranika]

Doesn't really work that way for BLM or SCH. Regardless of Solo'ing or in a party, BLM and SCH have better staves to be swapping in and out to increase the effectiveness of their spells than keep Hvergelmir equipped or bother with it's weapon skill. Especially tying up a SAM on the fly for it. Using it specifically to remove status effects are negligible too. That's erase is for. I know BLM don't natively have it but most are SCH or WHM for it. Or even RDM to mitigate MP usuage.

A smart nuker knows when to stop casting to keep from getting hate and move out the way when that max HP/MP down starts in WoE.

[Razushu]

What of the BLM that could benefit from MP restoration? They would only have to equip the staff, get the TP via Shikikoyo, use the WS, then go back to nuking sticks.

Not to mention that Silence isn't the only status ailment to ever plague a mage. Using the WS is a one hit wonder again paralyze since weaponskills can't be paralyzed. Max MP down is another as well as Gravity. If you were inflicted with these all at once, you could easily wipe them all with one WS and not have to even get within melee distance.

I'm not a BLM so I can't speak for how well they manage MP.

If I'm fighting something that nasty I'll be staying well out of range of those abilities just in case. Your solution is predicated on the assumption your just sitting round in the empyrean at 100%+TP, waiting for this scenario, which is probably not going to be the case. Seeing as if you were a BLM you'd be gimping your nukes, and if you were a SMN you'd be bleeding MP(unless you had a good perp set - the staff), while hurting the damage from your BPs(esp. magical ones) also, by locking in a staff that does nothing for them.

[Dallas]

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/103...=1#post4792772

The 2 links in that post point to testing.

I know Kegsay's work well. I just disagreed with him. There's far too much evidence that avatars are high damage, low attack instead of high attack, low damage. The latter would hit like a normal melee against most mobs, but everyone and their cat knows an avatar hits like a BLM *except* against high def mobs [when it hits like a gimp DRK].

Whatever avatar stats are @95, they are lower than Hver SMN. Carbuncle @75 was weaker than a SMN using Martial Staff. That's why I believe he was always wrong on at least one major assumption.

Source: http://kegsay.livejournal.com/

http://forums.ffxiclopedia.org/viewt...p?f=17&t=19875

Yah, the dates are right. He went a different path after meeting me.