Hvergelmir WTF SE

[Raksha]

I know Kegsay's work well. I just disagreed with him. There's far too much evidence that avatars are high damage, low attack instead of high attack, low damage. The latter would hit like a normal melee against most mobs, but everyone and their cat knows an avatar hits like a BLM *except* against high def mobs [when it hits like a gimp DRK].

Whatever avatar stats are @95, they are lower than Hver SMN. Carbuncle @75 was weaker than a SMN using Martial Staff. That's why I believe he was always wrong on at least one major assumption.

Source: http://kegsay.livejournal.com/

http://forums.ffxiclopedia.org/viewt...p?f=17&t=19875

Yah, the dates are right. He went a different path after meeting me.

EDIT: NVM found it.

[Byrth]

If you've already looked at kegsay's data and still believe your own theory then I don't know how to explain it to you.

Here is an attempt:
* Kegsay added Strength to his avatar using Ecliptic Growl at different moon phases. (top)
* He saw that minimum damage increased after a certain number of STR, and then again after about 4 more STR past that. (there is some weirdness with his data because he was fighting two types of monster and they have different VIT)
* Because he saw damage increase like this, he could determine that +1 base damage increased the minimum damage by 4. Therefore, pDIF = 4 at capped cRatio.
* You can take the 4 and divide it by whatever you want, then call it a "___ pDIF with an x% damage bonus", but it's the same as just calling it 4 to start with. It's already known that Monster and Player pDIF equations are different somehow, and that avatars and pets follow the monster equations, so there's no real need to arbitrarily introduce a constant.

[Dallas]

Here's how I explain it to you, Byrth:
"Celestial Avatars have 504 attack at Level 75. Carbuncle has more. Fenrir even more.
I estimate that Fenrir has around 570 attack."

That's L75 stats. At L95, a melee SMN with 430 attack deals more damage hit-for-hit than all avatars. Avatars are weaker than all SMN who wield the weapon this thread is about. Whatever this "kegsay attack" stat represents, it doesn't bear any resemblance to "attack."

Batman SMN like yourself are free to invent any numbers you like. I still don't see anyone but melee SMN arguing for avatar melee.

[Byrth]

I think you maybe just don't understand what pDIF means. pDIF is the function that relates base damage to the observed damage. It depends on the attacker's attack, the defender's defense, and (for players) the difference in level between the two characters.

Saying, "That attack is too high, because the pDIF equation looks too steep" is stupid, because the pDIF equation is whatever the pDIF equation is. We know almost nothing about the Avatar/monster pDIF equation, except that it's obviously different from the player pDIF equation.

Kegsay's method for determining avatar attack was theoretically sound, but he was limited by the amount of Avatar Attack+ equipment available. It would be more accurate if we went to Abyssea and had the avatar melee one type of EM monster, using Atma to boost its Attack between samples. That would give us several well defined points.

Here is what you're proposing: Avatar Damage range = Avatar_pDIF(Attack, Defense)*Base Damage*1.5
Here is what I'm proposing: Avatar Damage range = Avatar_pDIF(Attack, Defense)*Base Damage

So you're adding an unnecessary constant that there's no evidence for. Our knowledge of base damage is sound (per the fSTR tests), and any constant like what you're proposing could undetectably be absorbed into Avatar_pDIF.

[Raksha]

Here's how I explain it to you, Byrth:
"Celestial Avatars have 504 attack at Level 75. Carbuncle has more. Fenrir even more.
I estimate that Fenrir has around 570 attack."

That's L75 stats. At L95, a melee SMN with 430 attack deals more damage hit-for-hit than all avatars. Avatars are weaker than all SMN who wield the weapon this thread is about. Whatever this "kegsay attack" stat represents, it doesn't bear any resemblance to "attack."

Batman SMN like yourself are free to invent any numbers you like. I still don't see anyone but melee SMN arguing for avatar melee.

I'm guessing that a lvl 90 SMN hits harder than its avatar because you're using a D98 weapon and (in abyssea) have capped (or close) fstr. But I dont really know much about the melee dmg formula.

[Soranika]

If in side abyssea, then of course SMN would hit harder than their avatars with Hvergelmir or any physical staff with high damage because avatars don't benefit from crour buffs to balance their physical attack with those in abyssea. When I mentioned doing the near same damage on average with avatars with it, it was outside of abyssea at Cape Terrigan on EP and DC mobs. wasn't a thorough test but yeah. Same when I'm building TP in other areas like Sea or in aht urghan areas. If he thought I meant in abyssea when I made my statement of how much damage I was dealing in comparison with avatars, sorry for not being clear on that.

It's really hard to determine the formula of avatar attack in abyssea because of this because without using atma, avatars most notably weaker.

[Raksha]

On ep/dc mobs you'd have more or less the same situation. D98 weapon compared to whatever your avatars base D is (i'm guessing its not D98)

[Alhanelem]

There are mages who don't carry echo drops, what?

The mages who need to use fewer echo drops, what?

It's just a perk, not an excuse to not carry echo drops.

[Neisan_Quetz]

If you're seriously going to try advocating myrkr to remove silence when you can use an echo/remedy, achieve same result, and remove virtually the same ailments in the case of remedy bar bad luck on para then...

Don't use inventory/gil as an excuse either, they are not expensive and I know for a fact your inventory isn't capped on Smn.

[Alhanelem]

It's just a perk, not an excuse to not carry echo drops. Besides, as I said, Myrkr can remove multiple status effects- If you happen to be afflicted with anything and need the MP at the same time, Myrkr simply does that much more. It's an additional benefit. Icing on the cake.

/imitates Cait Sith

Point is, it's a functional, useful weapon skill, pretty much more so than any other weapon skill available to a mage.