Hvergelmir WTF SE

[Byrth]

So, you missed Kegsay's comment how STR improves base damage? 20 attack < 20 attack + base damage. Nice one, Sherlock.

The three cases were:
+0 Attack
+20 Attack
+40 STR (and thus +20 Attack)

I compared +40 STR (and thus +20 Attack) to +20 Attack. The avatar shows a minor (almost undetectable) improvement when you go from +0 attack to +20 Attack, and a major improvement when you add +40 STR (base damage). This shows that Avatars have high attack and low base damage.

I would bet that you can stack all the Attack atma at the same time and not get the same benefit that I showed from +40 STR.

[Alhanelem]

The three cases were:
+0 Attack
+20 Attack
+40 STR (and thus +20 Attack)

I compared +40 STR (and thus +20 Attack) to +20 Attack. The avatar shows a minor (almost undetectable) improvement when you go from +0 attack to +20 Attack, and a major improvement when you add +40 STR (base damage). This shows that Avatars have high attack and low base damage.

I would bet that you can stack all the Attack atma at the same time and not get the same benefit that I showed from +40 STR.

I've seen this myself from using various atma combinations, so as far as I can tell, it's a reasonable assessment of avatar's damage characteristics.

[Dallas]

This shows that Avatars have high attack and low base damage.

Your assumption that the formula is right does not prove that the formula is right. It only shows that you know how to plug numbers into a wrong formula.

[Alhanelem]

Your assumption that the formula is right does not prove that the formula is right. It only shows that you know how to plug numbers into a wrong formula.

Prove that it's wrong then. You'd be correct in stating that just because numbers happen to fit a forumla does not guarantee that the formula is accurate. That being said, just calling something wrong without backing it up doesn't discount a reasonable argument.

Of course,t hat's how you seem to approach everything here. You make controversial statements, then when people come and challenge it, you don't back it up. You just call them wrong and expect that to counter everything.

Please collect a large sample of data from a controlled test yourself that demonstrates some other formula is more accurate, or link to someone elses good faith efort to do the same instead of just declaring stuff to be wrong. Then people might be more willing to take you the least bit seriously.

[Byrth]

Your assumption that the formula is right does not prove that the formula is right. It only shows that you know how to plug numbers into a wrong formula.

We know that strength adds base damage and attack. We don't technically know the ratio. STR:ATK could be anything from 1:1 to 2:1, and STR:BD could be anything from 2:1 to 5:1. Kegsay's test indicated 5STR:1BD, but he tested on two monster populations that had different VITs so he could have missed fSTR going up one. 4STR:1BD is most probable in my opinion.

Still, if you compare the +20 Attack case to the +0 Attack case, you see a modest to unobservable difference. That in itself is no big news. Some pDIF equations have plateaus, so perhaps I was in a plateau. Adding STR, on the other hand, resulted in a very large change. If we know that attack results in a modest change, then we can conclude that the added base damage from STR caused the majority of the effect.

Now, if you look at the link to Kegsay's Fenrir testing that I linked earlier, you'll find the proof that the ratio of STR to Base damage is fairly high. 4 or 5 STR for 1 base damage. So I'm not adding a large amount of base damage when I stack on 40 STR. If a modest increase in base damage results in a sizable increase in damage dealt, then original base damage must have been small.

I don't have a parser at the moment, so everything was done with by going through my chat log and looking for higher highs and lower lows after every Cockatrice. I don't intend to continue this until I have a better method, because it's a pain and it isn't really pressing.

[Soranika]

Well in other news that no one has seem to have reported on. Hvergelmir isn't a tool meant solely for being melee because of it's high damage. It is a staff for mages, thinking about it from a melee stand point strickly is pretty much the wrong way to go it. For example, SMN that own it and use it in battle to melee during campaign battles, but there's still no room for SCH or BLM to go in and fight on the front lines.

However SE has pushing voidwatch as the next endgame activity pretty hard. Since people here seem to show some disdain for voidwatch, no one has seemed to want to mention that you get temp items when you start and every time you proc. Of these items is a Dusty Wing. Instant 300% useless to most mages outside of BLU, but a SMN, BLM, or SCH with Hvergelmir can pop these quickly for MP restoration when say sublimation is charging/down or if you have an avatar out attempting to proc and don't want to waste time using elemental siphon or already did so. It's highly doubtful that each of these jobs are CONSTANTLY doing something where they can't spare the minute it takes to use this. Plus it removes the risk of having to engage the enemy at close range for spirit taker. And yes, ailment removal is a nice perk to it.

It's not a full time staff, but it has it's uses and after using in various endgame situations, it is pretty invaluable for BLM and SCH to have, however SMN do tend to see the most benefit from this. It increases MP longevity.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Why wouldn't a Sch in a campaign battle melee with hverg? They're probably the second best job to do so with it since they can self skillchain.

MP longevity is not the problem for all 3 jobs with or without the staff.

[Alhanelem]

Why wouldn't a Sch in a campaign battle melee with hverg? They're probably the second best job to do so with it since they can self skillchain.

Oh yeah I forgot, summoner can't self skillchai- oh wait, yes they can. SMN just doesn't skillchain much because that means using either a worse blood pact than normal or a worse weaponskill than normal. It's different when using an NPC fellow though. I like chaining with the NPC and using a magic pact to magic burst. Sadly, NPCs won't participate in campaign.

[Byrth]

Dusky Wing -> WS is fine and good, but I dualbox Black Mages during Voidwatch, spam proc spells, and never run out of MP. As long as your group procs at a decent clip, you shouldn't be reduced to using wings.

You start with 2 Lucid Ether IIs (1000 MP) and each get 2 Mana Powders (25% MP restored per use and 2 per person, so you're looking at 3 MP bars per temp-restoring weakness stagger if you have a 6 man party). Toss in Aspir (or Elemental Siphon) and Convert, and I'm wondering why anyone ever brings up Dusty Wings.

[Soranika]

>.<
I concede. I haven't gotten far in voidwatch so I didn't know the number and type of temp items you get increase. Regardless though, I found use for my hvergelmir since I already own one. I see no reason to ignore it.