Raise the Minimum Requirement for entering Abyssea to Lv70 or 75

Your steroids analogy is horrible, also you don't decide if leeching for exp is legitimate or not; it's already been decided that it is a legit method of gaining exp, just as astralburning is a legit method of gaining exp. Just drop it already.

And I see the tag idiots are well in force again.

Look, the only reason an L30 would go in to Abyssea would be to be power-levelled. If you ever wanted a great idea for RMT, just watch what they've done with Abyssea in this game. Power-level 1-30, then Abyssea-PL the rest of the way, and you're probably 1-90 in a couple days, if not less.

I still remember that YouTube video of that cheating L75 BLM with ZERO magic skill.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

Your steroids analogy is horrible, also you don't decide if leeching for exp is legitimate or not; it's already been decided that it is a legit method of gaining exp, just as astralburning is a legit method of gaining exp. Just drop it already.

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The steroids analogy is quite accurate, and not only describes what they've done with Abyssea 30-75, but also with allowing all sorts of other exploits not on topic in this thread.

It's become the backbone of many people's enjoyment of FFXI, just as steroids are the backbone of what was many people's enjoyment of baseball.

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Originally Posted by Khiinroye

SE has a key item that commemorates the 'achievement' of doing inane repetitive tasks for excessive amounts of time.

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People complain about grinding EXP mobs over and over again to LvUp, but they don't complain about grinding Abyssea NM's over and over again for equipment???

Answer that question for me please.

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Originally Posted by TybudX

You're argument is stupid, and here's why. I have 2 alts. I burned them both to have several level 90 jobs using my main character's BLM. How am I cheating? How am I harming anybody? I am not leeching, I know just how hard it is to do quick pulls and check chests and open the right chests, all while spamming different macros for spells and gear sets so that I don't die.

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No. This means you're earnestly gaining exp on one job while cheating on the other, that is, using the word "cheating" to mean to deprive, mislead, evade, or act dishonestly. It might take a great deal of effort to do what you're doing, but that doesn't mean you aren't cheating. As an analogy, just because you're juggling with one hand, which is fine, and stealing with the other doesn't mean you're not cheating. It might take effort, but that's not actually relevant.

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Originally Posted by TybudX

By your definition, I am a cheater because 'leeching' inside Abyssea is inherently lazy, except I'm sure I'm working harder on all three of my accounts than you have ever worked for one minute inside Abyssea.

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No. I said that "It misleads people that you've been playing your job for 90 levels, when all you've done at best is just open chests." I say it's cheating because it's misleading. you are defining being lazy as a form of cheating. Now, again, just because some people have stronger characters or play multiple characters doesn't mean that less powerful characters or those that only play one character at a time is not a parasitic relationship. It is an unequal symbiotic relationship, but rarely are characters equal, that's just a given. Suggesting that people are cheating because they aren't as strong is without grounds.

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Originally Posted by TybudX

Also, your definition of cheating is stupid. If you go by it, you are cheating, since you obviously are not putting in as much effort leveling your jobs as I am. The least you could do is run two accounts at once. Then come talk about leeching being cheating.

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No. I am not cheating because I am not depriving, misleading, evading, or acting dishonestly. And no, literally least I can do is run one character at a time. I am in no way obligated to dual box.

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Originally Posted by TybudX

Kind of like your entire argument is an assertion based on thinking that the SE design team was completely unaware that people would bring low level characters into Abyssea to take advantage of a completely new experience points system? That's called an opinion, and yours is based on your misplaced morals, not the realm of fact.

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No. I did not assume that SE didn't know players wouldn't bring low level characters into the areas. They allow it, but that doesn't mean they approve of it. Even if they do, my assertion is in no way based upon what SE thinks or does. Leeching is cheating by definition. That is not against the rules doesn't mean it isn't cheating. I've already explained this.

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Originally Posted by TybudX

Once upon a time there were SMN burns. GMs got called so much that they apologized to alliance leaders for interrupting them again, and admitted that sometimes they were overwhelmed with reports of people "cheating" by mass pulling mobs in a starter zone. They said that as long as no griefing was being used, there was no break from the ToS by killing mobs in this way.

Fast forward a couple years, and we have new content. This content is filled to the brim with incredibly weak mobs, mobs with almost no defense, no attack, no dangerous AoEs that could potentially kill a character with little to no HPs. The experience system doesn't work like it did in the rest of the game, the way it still does now that content has been added outside of this new content. Instead of chaining exp based on a timer, you built your chain by gaining certain lights, and killing lots and lots of the same type of mob.

Want to know what a rational, thinking human being who is unaffected by a blinding moral rage would take from this?

They would think that SE saw all those people who SMN burned wanted a change. ...people were an indication that there just weren't enough camps that would fit this new, player discovered way of leveling en mass.

So SE specifically built a brand new mechanism into new content that would allow everybody to take advantage of faster leveling.

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If you've been paying attention, you'd know that my contention with leeching is that it's cheating. I never said that leeching is wrong because it's faster experience points. I never said I was against fast, good exp. Every party I've ever designed as had exactly that in mind. Yes, Abyssea was designed to alleviate camp congestion (which it doesn't competely do), and was designed to make the larger experience points needed to level up not quite so intimidating. I'm all for honestly earning your levels quickly by playing your job. What I'm against is leeching.

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Originally Posted by TybudX

The Abyssea experience points system seems tailor made for exactly what people are using it for, which is fast exp from 30-90(+). There is evidence everywhere in the design of Abyssea that this is how it was meant to be used.

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Is it your contention that Abyssea was designed so that players could get from 30 to 90 by leeching? No. That's speculating, words into SE's mouth that they never said. Now, I myself speculate that SE allowed lower level players in it's so that they could do smaller fetch quests for small rewards. If they get random seals and what not, great, but that isn't depriving, misleading, evading, or act dishonestly.

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Originally Posted by TybudX

Your 'argument' has one piece of 'evidence', and that is that SE is stupid. See the problem here?

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No. Again, my arguement that leeching is cheating is no way based upon what SE thinks or does, or the quality, good or bad, of those that thinking and action. I do my own thinking. I don't borrow the weight of authority from others, that's your argument, not mine.

And finally, knowing the difference between right and wrong isn't blinding. It allows us to see. As far as being rational and logical goes, well...

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Originally Posted by Akujima

People complain about grinding EXP mobs over and over again to LvUp, but they don't complain about grinding Abyssea NM's over and over again for equipment???

Answer that question for me please.

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He's using the fishing one as a good example of why -- doesn't that also get you the Lu Shang's?

EQ means a lot to many players.

Nobody ever answered why level 75+ players are entitled to more exp/hr than everyone else?

Why is it fair to set a minimum level for us to to start taking our steroids?

Also, please list a specific example of the low level content that is being bypassed by leeching?

Corner A says, "We like leeching, it allows us to try out new jobs and our LS's have benefitted from the increase in job variety."

Corner B says, "It's faster than it used to be, and involves nothing more than a chests mini-game, so it must be cheating."

Again, if you do not like leeching, you can opt to build your own Abyssea alliances that do not allow leeches. You can opt to exp the "old way" that you know and are comfortable with. But, and here's the thing:

Why should the rest of the playerbase be confined by YOUR personal views on how jobs NEED to be leveled? This proposal is entirely self serving and doesn't increase the enjoyment of the game for anyone but those that feel a need to place speed bumps on our road to 90. It's an OCD need to control how everyone levels and doesn't benefit the game or the playerbase in any conceivable way.

It's also entirely hypocritical because 75+, you ARE taking your exp steroids, the same as everyone else. Good exp shouldn't be limited to the 2nd half of the game, it should be available throughout the game, or else you create an unbalanced gameplay experience, which is what SE predicted and why they set the minimum level to 30 to begin with.

Mods please please lock this thread before this guy gets enough bandwagoners to reach his like quota.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

Your steroids analogy is horrible,

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If I just said, "No yours is!" that doesn't mean it is. However yours is horrible though because you haven't said how and why.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

also you don't decide if leeching for exp is legitimate or not; it's already been decided that it is a legit method of gaining exp, just as astralburning is a legit method of gaining exp. Just drop it already.

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By all means, correct me if I'm wrong, but what you're trying to say is that whether I think leeching is cheating or not, leeching is not against the rules, therefore it's legitimate. You're right by definition. Legitimate is that which isn't against the rules. But, one more time, just because something is legitimate doesn't mean it isn't cheating. See Warp Whistles. "Cheat mode," so aptly called, is technically allowed by the game, but it is still cheating. Leeching, again so aptly called, is still cheating.

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Originally Posted by Panthera

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

Your steroids analogy is horrible, also...

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If I just said, "No yours is!" that doesn't mean it is. However yours is horrible though because you haven't said how and why.

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Look. Panthera's point on Parasitic and Symbiotic relationships is the single most valid point that has been touched in this entire thread. If you don't know anything about those types of relationships, go LvUp and gain some experience to figure out how each of them is different.

Panthera... Thank you for having what counts most: Common Sense.

You do know what Symbiotic means, right...?

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Originally Posted by Akujima

Look. Panthera's point on Parasitic and Symbiotic relationships is the single most valid point that has been touched in this entire thread. If you don't know anything about those types of relationships, go LvUp and gain some experience to figure out how each of them is different.

Panthera... Thank you for having what counts most: Common Sense.

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From your perspective, it is, because he's like-minded.

To 90% of the other readers, Leon, Ramona and myself make the most valid points, because we're sane and our logic is based on the common good and not a personal agenda.

This is still going? News flash: You can now leech abyssea-style from GoV pages once the exp cap is reached, racking up 3000-4000+ exp/page depending on how hard the page is (600-700 exp/mob give or take). Only difference is you click the tome every time a regiment is complete vs. completely afking and you get gil/tabs vs cruor as a secondary bonus. And you can start at lv1 instead of lv30.

So if players want to restrict access to Abyssea, should we restrict access to Vanadiel?

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Originally Posted by Svens

This is still going? News flash: You can now leech abyssea-style from GoV pages once the exp cap is reached, racking up 3000-4000+ exp/page depending on how hard the page is (600-700 exp/mob give or take). Only difference is you click the tome every time a regiment is complete vs. completely afking and you get gil/tabs vs cruor as a secondary bonus. And you can start at lv1 instead of lv30.

So if players want to restrict access to Abyssea, should we restrict access to Vanadiel?

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Is Lumoria considered outside of Vanadiel? People might leech in Sea.

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Originally Posted by Chocobits

Is Lumoria considered outside of Vanadiel? People might leech in Sea.

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I want to say it is a part of Vanadiel as it is part of the world/dimension and a counterpart does exist in Abyssea as your Abyssean counterpart loses to Promathia. There is Walk of Echoes, but people already leech there, so...yeah...

Hear are my thoughts and this will be the third time I say this.

Some of you like abyssea, some of you don't, I happen to be one of those that likes both. The problem here is that both sides are set in their thinking and neither side is going to change their minds. This is a debate that will go on forever because you can't make each other think the same way. Let's face it guys everyone has their own ways of doing things. We may not like them or even agree with them but the one thing we will never accomplish is making them change their minds.

And I want to make sure that the we in that last statement doesn't mean I agree with either side. Like I said I like both ways. :)

People don't complain about killing NMs in abyssea over and over because the reward is quick--with a pickup group of 4, you can get a +1 piece of gear in about 2 hours. Oldschool xp, you might have gone from lv 37 to lv 38 in CN.

As for empyreans--those are, for many of them, the best weapon of their type in the game. Even going at a casual 4 hours per day average, you can get most of them to lv 85 in two or three weeks. (empyrean weapons involving glavoid or chloris might take longer if you're unlucky with cleaving KIs, harp/shield take longer due to VNM upgrades). Since they're currently the best of their class, people expect to have to work more for them. Shirley, you've seen the relic / mythic / empyrean threads.

While there are still some new players, most of the players have been around for a while. The majority of us have leveled to 60+ before abyssea, many with several lv 75 jobs. Skills from these jobs carry over, as does knowledge.

Say you played warrior and ninja, and have tanked a myriad of mobs, and have mostly capped skills on those jobs since you need that to trigger in abyssea. However, for a change, you leech whm to 90, and your subjobs to 49. Put on your sch sub, light arts, instant B- rank skill; not optimal, but still better than whm's base skill for everything except divine and healing. You'll know how important haste is for melees, and will try to keep it up. You'll know the benefits of protect, shell, barspells, etc. You'll definitely know what moves give additional status effects, and what spell is needed to cure them. You'll need to pick up mp management and where you should stand as a mage, but that's something that's quick.

If instead you want to pick up a melee job, you'll already have the main weapon skilled a good portion of the way to 90. This includes scythe, GS, axe, GA, dagger, GK, polearm. You might even have decent h2h, archery, and marksmanship if you like blue numbers. There really aren't that many job abilities to learn on a new job melee job, and if you payed attention while leveling your old jobs, you'll know what they do.

New players will have to take a break from xping at lv 70 anyways, since they won't be able to beat G5 with vastly underlevelled skills. The two exceptions are whm (divine magic skilling only, sleep Maat for 5 minutes to win) and thf (successfully steal to win). Any other melee will need to skill their main weapon, and mages will need to work on their magic skills.

The only problem for new players is being able to afford gear. Cruor can be traded for items that net a bit of gil, but it will probably still fall a bit short. Teal/Aurore/Perle gear is decent for a new player to start with, but they should work to get better gear to replace it.

Anyways, if you find someone in your alliance who is trying to pass as a DD with the skill of a lv 30 job, kick them. Tell them that they need to skill up to an acceptable level before continuing to level that particular job. Its not abyssea's fault that the person is inconsiderate and intentionally gimping himself by not skilling up.

Most alliances only have 1 or 2 lowbies keying chests. Sure, a brd or cor could open them between songs, but you almost never have those in pickup alliances, and if you do, they'd really rather not be spending a ton of cruor on a pickup alliance instead of gaining it. Since the low level people are taking care of a boring job that nobody wants to do, they allow the higher levels to play as they wish. It's more like the relationship between an ER doctor and the garbage man than it is a dog and a flea. If someone is paying to get their job leveled in abyssea, its more like a homeowner and a lawn service.

The lv 75+s who stand off to the side or at the dominion npc and don't do anything at all need to go, but nobody here is arguing against that.

You may argue that the fast xp will let people finish with everything faster, get bored, and quit sooner, but I believe that if you force lower level xp to be slow again, most people will give up on leveling new jobs, and have fewer options for doing the existing content, which will cause them to quit. The option to quickly level a new job every now and then gives the opportunity for a fresh perspective on the content--having the option to play as a healer or nuker or melee dd or tank is far less confining than being pidgeonholed into one or two styles due to a lack being able to quickly expand your job selection.

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Originally Posted by panthera

No. I said that "It misleads people that you've been playing your job for 90 levels, when all you've done at best is just open chests." I say it's cheating because it's misleading... to deprive, mislead, evade, or act dishonestly.

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So this is the heart of your argument?

You cannot say that I am cheating by 'leeching' any of my three accounts to have level 90 jobs. Functionally they are the same; that is, they are all me. I can play on all three accounts on any job and nobody would be able to tell the difference between the newer characters and my old character if they didn't already know me. I am in no way misleading anybody I come into contact with. I have not deprived anybody of anything by leeching my alts. I am not evading learning any skill or game mechanic that I don't already know, despite having leveled many jobs recently that I had never played past level 37 before. I make no claims when I do join events as to how I leveled my characters or how skilled I am at playing them.

In fact, the onus is on the people playing with me to not make unfounded assumptions about me based on their opinions. Abyssea has been around for some time now, and before that there were AB parties. It's safe to assume that a large portion of the population has 'leeched' one or more of the jobs that they play on. Nobody is being dishonest about it. Nobody is being mislead except for people who choose to walk around with blinders on. Nobody is evading the skills you learn during traditional experience parties because quite frankly you don't learn much of anything by fighting a few select monsters over and over again for weeks or months.

Now, how about some context?

I know somebody who has played PLD since at least 2006, who has completed an Aegis, who has been tanking in an HNM ls for three years. He leveled his PLD in traditional experience parties. This player joins events with the express intention of being main tank, many times suggesting party set ups that make him the sole tank. Despite having proper buffs, proper support, and good party set ups, this player cannot maintain shadows, keep hate, control a mob, manage his MP pool, or generally do what a PLD tank is supposed to be able to do, especially after 5 years of playing it.

Isn't that misleading? And doesn't misleading = cheating by definition? Despite him playing PLD the way he plays PLD, despite SE 'legitimizing' his play style, he has mislead many, many groups into thinking he can do something that he is incapable of doing.

Isn't that dishonest? And doesn't dishonest = cheating by definition? He claims to have skills that he learned while leveling his job and tanking HNMs, but is incapable of implementing these skills.

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Originally Posted by Romanova

Not responding to the rest of your post because time and again you've shown your pure selfishness throughout your posts are are just arguing semantics that don't really matter.

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It's more likely you aren't responding because you just don't have a counter argument. The analogy is that I'm an Abyssea mob, and you're level 30, and you should not be in Abyssea. That's admittedly condescending, for which I apologize, but while I don't agree with GreatGuardian on the other hand, but I did really, sincerely like and respect his bit about how he thinks I think FFXI is an RPG so therefore etc. It was a good effort. I would just once like to be able to say in this thread,"I just can't argue with that."

What I find selfish is taking the prestige of an accomplishment in an MMO just so that you can have the same accomplishments, but without the same effort. Showing no regard to what others have earned, that you have cheated for, that's selfish.

Semantics do matter because truth is contigent upon it. We are arguing what is and what is not. And with all due respect, if I am arguing semantics, it's because you don't know what words mean. You can't just claim "A" is "B" when really it's "C" when you don't know what "A", "B" or "C" really mean.

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Originally Posted by Romanova

But try to get this through your head. for you it is about accomplishments. Not for everybody. Nor does it have to be for everybody just because you have pride in a video game.

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No, I understand perfectly that some don't care about earning their levels. I get that. I just don't agree with it, and I don't think they should. I have to be able to understand it in order to wag my finger disapprovingly at it. It's already been explained how your cheating takes from my accomplishment, and how cheating effects those who want to level but do it honestly.

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Originally Posted by Romanova

Nor does accomplishment have to = XP.

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Correct. Accomplishments don't have to be experience points, but experience points DO have to be accomplishments, or why bother? If they don't matter, remove them. Do them, or don't do them, but just don't cheat. Get a Relic, but don't RMT it. Get a Lu Shang's or Ebisu's, but don't fishbot it, etc. In an MMO, part of the value of certain items are their rarity. Back in the day, having certain jobs at 75 meant something, because they were difficult to get to there, but valuable and praise-worthy once they did get there. Now you can have those jobs at max level, but so what? So does everyone else by extensive thumb-twiddling. Your leeching (by which I mean "one", not you personally) does not exist in a vacuum. Forgive me for "[b]", but I am no more imposing my will onto others such that levels matter than they are imposing theirs on me by taking that value away. Now, what have you to say to that, hmmm?

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Originally Posted by Romanova

Not everybody has to play the game under your way. Sticking to what SE allows is good enough for me.

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And what SE rules is legal doesn't mean it's not side-stepping or short-cutting. Up up down down left right left right B A is one thing in the context of an offline game, but in an online game, it's quite something else. If if isn't against the rules to cheat, the rules are insufficient.

Provided that you are just repeating yourself without offering up anything new, it's nothing more than an attempt to win the arguement by getting in the last word in. The arguement that is true will always prevail over the last word that isn't.

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Originally Posted by panthera

What I find selfish is taking the prestige of an accomplishment in an MMO just so that you can have the same accomplishments, but without the same effort.

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Really?

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Originally Posted by panthera

It might take a great deal of effort to do what you're doing, but that doesn't mean you aren't cheating.

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You have no problem arbitrarily discounting the amount of effort it took me to level three characters at once, even going so far as to call it cheating.

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Originally Posted by panthera

And what SE rules is legal doesn't mean it's not side-stepping or short-cutting... if isn't against the rules to cheat, the rules are insufficient.

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Again, this is your assumption based on what you think SE may or may not think. Unfortunately for you SE does have the sole responsibility of deciding what is and isn't legal in their game. They own it, they control it, and they hold that the state of the game may change at any time. How you or I interpret their rules is irrelevant. It's not our decision.

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Originally Posted by TybudX

Isn't that misleading? And doesn't misleading = cheating by definition? Despite him playing PLD the way he plays PLD, despite SE 'legitimizing' his play style, he has mislead many, many groups into thinking he can do something that he is incapable of doing.

Isn't that dishonest? And doesn't dishonest = cheating by definition? He claims to have skills that he learned while leveling his job and tanking HNMs, but is incapable of implementing these skills.

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This PLD argument is a moot point, because everyone knows that PLD as a job itself is broken. The player you're describing is misleading himself into thinking otherwise, due to the fact that he's invested so much time and energy into the PLD job. He is blind to face the facts that PLD is not working as intended.

PLD has many ways to accumulate hate and control a mob, especially in longer fights. It isn't a good tank because killing faster is always better than the alternative with the way the game is currently designed, not because PLD is bad at not taking damage and holding a mob's attention.

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Originally Posted by TybudX

PLD has many ways to accumulate hate and control a mob, especially in longer fights. It isn't a good tank because killing faster is always better than the alternative with the way the game is currently designed, not because PLD is bad at not taking damage and holding a mob's attention.

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You are reinstating the obvious game mechanics that make PLD a useless job, in an attempt to derail away from the fact that the point is still moot. Your original point was on the topic of misleading and deception, so why don't you stop going off topic and practice what you preach.

You have no real concept of why PLD isn't a good tank. Your point is that PLD as a job is 'broken'. Broken =/= bad at tanking. Broken = not as good as any other option except maybe three mobs in the game, which is either not important or bad depending on your opinion of the PLD job. It has nothing whatsoever to do with PLD solo tanking or even co-tanking mobs, which it is perfectly capable of doing.

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Originally Posted by TybudX

You have no real concept of why PLD isn't a good tank. Your point is that PLD as a job is 'broken'. Broken =/= bad at tanking. Broken = not as good as any other option except maybe three mobs in the game, which is either not important or bad depending on your opinion of the PLD job. It has nothing whatsoever to do with PLD solo tanking or even co-tanking mobs, which it is perfectly capable of doing.

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Who are you arguing with?
When are you going to get back onto the topic of misleading and deception? How does that post have anything to do with misleading and deception?

Go back and read it again, then ask yourself why PLD being 'broken' as a tank had anything to do with what I said. How is what you have started talking about on topic or relevant?

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Originally Posted by TybudX

You have no real concept of why PLD isn't a good tank. Your point is that PLD as a job is 'broken'. Broken =/= bad at tanking. Broken = not as good as any other option except maybe three mobs in the game, which is either not important or bad depending on your opinion of the PLD job. It has nothing whatsoever to do with PLD solo tanking or even co-tanking mobs, which it is perfectly capable of doing.

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Which it isn't? (Don't bring up Ochain as that is an item, not a job).

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Originally Posted by TybudX

Go back and read it again, then ask yourself why PLD being 'broken' as a tank had anything to do with what I said. How is what you have started talking about on topic or relevant?

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I'll say it again. He was misleading and cheating himself into believing what he could do. You don't disagree with how he was unable to hold true to his claims, but you assumed that he was cheating other people by misleading THEM. The fact is he tried his hardest and there are even people who are against this thread, that will agree with me about how PLD is a useless "broken" job that needs to be fixed.

Whatever the reasons are for PLD being "broken" don't have anything to do with the point you were trying to make about misleading and deceiving. Sure PLD can "Tank" well, but "Tanking" in FFXI is so obscure now, that there is basically no need for it to be defined in current endgame content. Whether this is true or not now for VoidWatch scenario's is going wayyy off topic.

Misleading others intentionally because they don't know any better is one thing, but not being able to accept the facts about reality is cheating yourself. But maybe he doesn't know about PLD's current state, and your posts #262 and #264 would be more suitable if they were directed towards him, instead of trying to slyly derail me.

Back to the topic at hand.

All I've seen in this thread is new point, after new point, after new point that has just been shut-down by people with established, defined reasons about why raising the LvCap is a good idea. Even going so far as to call us out as "Fanatical Moralists" implying that we're somehow imposing unbearable punishment to people.

I question whether these people are having fun with their newly leeched Lv90 jobs, and not complaining elsewhere about how long it takes to get things done, and how annoying it is for such and such to take such and such amount of time. It almost seems like they're measuring "time factor" with "fun factor", saying that the least amount of time spent doing something will also be the most satisfying.

So then the correct assumption would be to say that the sooner we can Lv all 20 jobs to Lv99, the sooner we can all have maxed out gear/equipment and the sooner we've depleted FFXI of all its resources and content, then and ONLY then, will we be happy... Right?

Sounds like life in the fast lane to me, though. Live hard, die young?


Some of us are on here trying to make the game last longer. Leeching only seeks to shorten the lifespan of FFXI and deprive it of any integrity it once had.

@Zyeriis
Idontevenwtf. Between you and akujimi I'm not sure who is better at having a complete lack of reading comprehension. At least Panthera isn't an idiot. He/she is basing their argument on invalid theories, but they are making a valid point. The both of you do nothing but hurt your own position on everything you post about, every time you post about it.

edit - @akujimi
I'll say this again. PLD isn't broken because it isn't a good tank. It's broken because the abilities it has that let it survive don't matter, while dealing more damage does. Somebody saying they are a good PLD, setting up parties to support a PLD tank, fighting NMs and HNMs as a PLD tank, is not broken. You have zero concept as to what you are talking about, so I will explain it to you in simple terms. PLD is a perfectly capable tank in almost every situation in the game. It's survivability is outweighed by other job's damage dealing capacities. The job isn't 'broken' because it is bad at what it is designed to do, it's bad because almost every other job can survive within the confines of what the game design requires.

Also, I am trying to finish the game as fast as I can. The sooner I max out key jobs on my three characters, the sooner I can start maxing out all the other jobs. I can assure you this isn't a fast process, even with Abyssea style experience gains. What's your point again?

-pps
I was never trying to 'slyly derail' you. You're the one who can't understand what I am saying, took what I said out of context, and has no understanding of why my example is valid to the argument you made. And by the way, I never responded to you before this. Your own argument for 'your side' of the argument is so bad as to be laughable at best.

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Originally Posted by TybudX

@Zyeriis
Idontevenwtf. Between you and akujimi I'm not sure who is better at having a complete lack of reading comprehension. At least Panthera isn't an idiot. He/she is basing their argument on invalid theories, but they are making a valid point. The both of you do nothing but hurt your own position on everything you post about, every time you post about it.

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Please explain further how we do this. Elaborate with more details please. Give us examples of what you mean by that. If you could do that, it would be appreciated. Because that last sentence is a little on the vague side.

Its all for not now any way. Seeing how you can now leech outside of abyssea starting at level one. SE had to have known that would be one of the first thing people tried yet they did nothing.

you want that getting a job to 75 is an accomplishment that you can be proud of? ask SE team to remove all "make getting lvl75 easy" patch:
- double xp rate
- lvl sync
- higher chain lenght
- lower XP needed per lvl

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Originally Posted by hiko

you want that getting a job to 75 is an accomplishment that you can be proud of? ask SE team to remove all "make getting lvl75 easy" patch:
- double xp rate
- lvl sync
- higher chain lenght
- lower XP needed per lvl

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You can continue to imply that I'm some kind of extremist. But you are surely wrong.

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Originally Posted by hiko

you want that getting a job to 75 is an accomplishment that you can be proud of? ask SE team to remove all "make getting lvl75 easy" patch:
- double xp rate
- lvl sync
- higher chain lenght
- lower XP needed per lvl

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More like "Remove everything from ToAU onwards." The EXP system has been getting easier by leaps and bounds since then, with the introduction of Colibri, EXP rings, and Sanction EXP bonuses. It may not be Akujima's point (whatever point of his remains that hasn't been torn to shreds 9,001 times in all of these threads about the Abyssea cap), but it is surely Panthera's.

If you want EXP to be an accomplishment, remove everything that makes it easy. Unfortunately, most people don't really give a crap about EXP being an accomplishment.

Unfortunately for some of you, you are simply not used to the fact that any random person out there in the game needs to be considered a completely incompetent moron with the brain matter of a potato until they are proven otherwise. Those of us who have been Endgame-tier players for a long time already know this, so Abyssea leeching creating useless level 90s with no spells or skills or knowledge of the game is Absolutely. Nothing. New. These 'deceptive, cheating leeches' are no more deceptive to us than Mages who refuse to cast Haste, Players who don't swap gear, Samurai who don't have Polearm capped, DDs who TP in 0-10% Haste, and so on and so forth. In fact the latter are worse, because THEY ACTUALLY CLAIM TO KNOW WHAT THE HELL THEY ARE DOING WHEN IT IS OBVIOUS THAT THEY DO NOT AND ARE ABSOLUTELY 110% WORTHLESS IN A GROUP SITUATION.

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Originally Posted by Akujima

All I've seen in this thread is new point, after new point, after new point that has just been shut-down by people with established, defined reasons about why raising the LvCap is a good idea. Even going so far as to call us out as "Fanatical Moralists" implying that we're somehow imposing unbearable punishment to people.

I question whether these people are having fun with their newly leeched Lv90 jobs, and not complaining elsewhere about how long it takes to get things done, and how annoying it is for such and such to take such and such amount of time. It almost seems like they're measuring "time factor" with "fun factor", saying that the least amount of time spent doing something will also be the most satisfying.

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Lol, I'm not sure which thread you're reading, but it obviously isn't this one. You haven't brought up a single point that hasn't already been responded to and completely disproved either in this thread or the many other abyssea threads.

As for you assertion that we aren't even having fun with our leeched jobs, I can't speak for the others but I feel confident that they will agree with my sentiments. I'm having more fun because I"m actually taking part in the rewarding content of the game and not the mindless grind of exping. Grinding levels was never fun in and of itself, it could be made tolerable if you had a decent group of friends that you leveled with, but again it was never a fun part of this game.

As for Panthera and his assertion that hitting max level was an accomplishment, it hasn't been an accomplishment to have a max level character since ToAU at the latest if not earlier. The thing that you don't seem to understand is that by their very nature things that were once an accomplishment in an MMO become easier to achieve over time and thus no longer become an accomplishment worth noting. With the introduction of better gear and abilities and better understanding of game mechanics what used to be difficult for ever the elite level players eventually will become easy enough that even the most casual of casuals will be able to accomplish it.

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Originally Posted by Panthera

Correct. Accomplishments don't have to be experience points, but experience points DO have to be accomplishments, or why bother? If they don't matter, remove them. Do them, or don't do them, but just don't cheat. Get a Relic, but don't RMT it. Get a Lu Shang's or Ebisu's, but don't fishbot it, etc.

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rmt = against TOS

fish botting = against TOS

You can't even come up with a "cheating" that's actually allowed by SE. Face it, you want this to be against SE, but as ravenmore said you can do this outside abyssea now too, it's growing, not getting taken away.

In the higher tier voidwatch, DD tanks tend to die if the NM so much as sneezes at them. Plds are perfectly capable of taking what the mobs are dishing out, except the weakness inducing tp moves that NOBODY can tank. In order to maximize drops, you need to do many, many triggers, so survivability of the tank matters, rather than zerging. The pld in Tybud's example, who leveled the old way and had a relic and wanted people to believe that he knew what he was doing as a tank would be totally unable to tank these mobs, while a capable pld could. THE PALADIN IN THE EXAMPLE WAS INEPT AT HIS JOB DESPITE LEVELING THE OLD WAY AND EVEN HAVING THE BEST GEAR AND RELICS. He was inept in the old days when people used pld, and he is still inept now. Understanding the meaning of the example would have you believe that a competent, freshly levelled pld with the basic pld tanking gear would do a better job than him. That was the whole point of the example, and it was IGNORED based on "pld is broken". The job isn't broken; the need for a tank just wasn't there, so it wasn't used. One does not take the make an army of ultralisks when performing a zerg rush.

My example of how a capable, previously melee-only person could pick up a mage job and do perfectly fine with it was IGNORED.

The fact that truly new players will need to skill their main class skills (except for thf and whm) to get past 70 was IGNORED.

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All I've seen in this thread is new point, after new point, after new point that has just been shut-down by people with established, defined reasons about why raising the LvCap is a good idea.

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Since you have said that these points have been addressed, I guess we can assume that you have no real response to them and have therefore conceded them.

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Do them, or don't do them, but just don't cheat.

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My definition of cheating in terms of leveling is using third party programs to do your levelling for you (people do use curebots, so this is actually there), or altering your character data to fix your level at whatever you want it to be. Buying accounts is cheating. Keying boxes does not meet this definition, therefore it is not cheating.

Using third party programs to choose what fish you hooked and instantly set its hp to 0 is cheating. Being able to see VNMs while they're still in their unaggrod state is cheating. RMT is cheating.

See, I can define terms to my benefit, too, and mine is closer to SE's definition.

I leveled my rng from 20 to 56 via campaign ops and xp scrolls. Did I cheat by doing that? I sure didn't go out and get oldschool xp parties.

As to the RPG element; Sure, xp is a key factor in all of them. But when you have one character that you want to use to do something different, do you take him through all the areas in the game that you've been through and catch him up like that? No, you slap him in the party with your top characters, go to the spot in the game where the monsters give a ton of xp, and use your strong characters to tear through them like paper and skyrocket your weak character's levels. Some RPGs even level your characters while they're out of party (e.g. Chrono Trigger). Being able to use strong characters to level weak characters has always been a part of many games in the genre, even in SE games. If you want to look at other MMOs, WoW has twinking of new characters, and apparently death knights start at lv 55.

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So then the correct assumption would be to say that the sooner we can Lv all 20 jobs to Lv99, the sooner we can all have maxed out gear/equipment and the sooner we've depleted FFXI of all its resources and content, then and ONLY then, will we be happy... Right?

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Alternately, we can not level any new jobs because it takes so long the old way and people don't want to sit through that for the 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 14th, 15th, 16th time. Then we'll max gear and equipment for our jobs even faster, and all quit sooner.

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I am no more imposing my will onto others such that levels matter than they are imposing theirs on me by taking that value away. Now, what have you to say to that, hmmm?

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They are not taking the value away from you. You can still feel that you earned your levels, while they did not; therefore, you can believe that your levels are an accomplishment due to how you achieved them, while their levels are not an achievement because they sped through them in abyssea. It does not have to be an all-or-nothing situation.

@zyeris
This is not a thread about PLD's capabilities as a tank.

Get it?

You are attacking the example I used to prove a point, not the point itself. Your attack is off topic; it has no bearing on what this thread is about: raising the level cap for Abyssea - there is a thread for PLD tanking already, take your comments there.

And so that you will be more informed when you do post in that thread, I will explain again why my example is valid to the point I was making. PLD tanks have immense survivability. It is not at all unreasonable to use a PLD tank if winning is your only priority; in fact it is in your best interest since they are so sturdy. What makes PLD a poor choice is that winning quickly increases drop rates by allowing you to fight more often. It also gives support characters a smaller window in which to use their resources, which allows for less survivable DDs to effectively hold hate on a mob and survive.

None of that makes PLD a bad tank, it just means you either need a) more people involved to increase kill spead, or b) kill slower, which sometimes gives the mob more opportunities to use highly damaging effects. In the first case your drop rate is effectively lowered due to needing to provide more items for more people. In the second case the mob isn't always capable of doing anything dangerous to a PLD anyways, so it doesn't always matter.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

More like "Remove everything from ToAU onwards." The EXP system has been getting easier by leaps and bounds since then, with the introduction of Colibri, EXP rings, and Sanction EXP bonuses. It may not be Akujima's point (whatever point of his remains that hasn't been torn to shreds 9,001 times in all of these threads about the Abyssea cap), but it is surely Panthera's.

If you want EXP to be an accomplishment, remove everything that makes it easy. Unfortunately, most people don't really give a crap about EXP being an accomplishment.

Unfortunately for some of you, you are simply not used to the fact that any random person out there in the game needs to be considered a completely incompetent moron with the brain matter of a potato until they are proven otherwise. Those of us who have been Endgame-tier players for a long time already know this, so Abyssea leeching creating useless level 90s with no spells or skills or knowledge of the game is Absolutely. Nothing. New. These 'deceptive, cheating leeches' are no more deceptive to us than Mages who refuse to cast Haste, Players who don't swap gear, Samurai who don't have Polearm capped, DDs who TP in 0-10% Haste, and so on and so forth. In fact the latter are worse, because THEY ACTUALLY CLAIM TO KNOW WHAT THE HELL THEY ARE DOING WHEN IT IS OBVIOUS THAT THEY DO NOT AND ARE ABSOLUTELY 110% WORTHLESS IN A GROUP SITUATION.

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I'm done with this thread and its lowsy implications that Myself, Panthera and other like minded people are some kind of radical extremist group. Accusing us of trying to force everyone to go back to when it took 2 days to find a PT and 1 week to get a few Lv's.

So let me set the record straight:

None of us said to remove FoV.
None of us said to remove GoV.
None of us said to remove EXP rings.
None of us disagreed with the new EXP rate per mob.
None of us disagreed with Colibri camps, SMN Burn, BLM burn or anything outside Abyssea

All we are asking for is some balance.

FFXI in the past took ridiculous amounts of time to LvUp, but now the game has taken a '180' in the other direction. Now it's a bit TOO easy to cap your level. If you can't grasp the idea of a healthy balance, then maybe stepping out of your perception of absolutism would do you some good.

Players lack of competence has nothing to do with balance in game design.

Bad players are bad players. They have nothing to do with how ridiculously fast it is to level up inside Abyssea. Just because you proclaim yourself to be a "good, smart player" is no excuse to be spoon fed a Lv90 character. You should have to do the work, just like everyone else. Trying to justify the circumvention of how game genre's are meant to stay true to their style, just because you are "good" and other players that "suck" are the actual problem, is a VERY poor excuse. This attitude towards incompetence amongst a portion of the player base is very biased to an "elitist" point of view, but I'm not surprised to see such a cookie-cutter post. A post that seeks to stray away from the real issue and blame it on someone else.

GG. I challenge you to make a thread that is creative, innovative, or addresses issues that other like minded players can agree with. If you can make just one thread that can get some kind intelligent feedback... then, and only then, will I give you credit for your enormous post-count.

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Originally Posted by Akujima

GG. I challenge you to make a thread that is creative, innovative, or addresses issues that other like minded players can agree with. If you can make just one thread that can get some kind intelligent feedback... then, and only then, will I give you credit for your enormous post-count.

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I wish you would stop trying to show off this thread as an accomplishment; it's not creative. It's a rehashed point that's been over used and over discussed to absolutely no avail- because every one has an opinion and is stupid and stubborn about it. It's gotten this far because you, and many people who see differently from you, WILL NOT CHANGE THEIR MIND. If you want to make ANOTHER long useless thread, go post about how BST got jipped from invincible pets. Go post about how relics are being undermined by empyreans. Pick any other FFXI hot topic and just paste it onto a thread and you'll get what you think is some kind of accomplishment.

On Topic: I agree with you actually, Abyssea leeching subtracts from the game 'experience.' Do I think they should take it away? No, because that part of the game 'experience' sucked.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Akujima

I'm done with this thread and its lowsy implications that Myself, Panthera and other like minded people are some kind of radical extremist group. Accusing us of trying to force everyone to go back to when it took 2 days to find a PT and 1 week to get a few Lv's.

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That's because you are.

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Originally Posted by Akujima

All we are asking for is some balance.

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No, you're asking to forbid low level players from entering Abyssea and earning fast exp. To you, the slow grind is necessary. A balance would be increasing the outside world exp to a level that makes everyone happy and willing to go back.

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Originally Posted by Akujima

If you can't grasp the idea of a healthy balance, then maybe stepping out of your perception of absolutism would do you some good.

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Yes, it would be wise for you to listen to your own words of wisdom.

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Originally Posted by Akujima

Bad players are bad players. They have nothing to do with how ridiculously fast it is to level up inside Abyssea.

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What's this? Weren't you the one claiming that bad players (a.k.a. leeches) were because they failed to take long enough to level up and therefore didn't know how to play? Hmm...

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Originally Posted by Akujima

Just because you proclaim yourself to be a "good, smart player" is no excuse to be spoon fed a Lv90 character. You should have to do the work, just like everyone else.

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We already did. It's called leveling jobs to 75 for the last 8 years. Playing the game for the last 8 years.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Akujima

Trying to justify the circumvention of how game genre's are meant to stay true to their style, just because you are "good" and other players that "suck" are the actual problem, is a VERY poor excuse. This attitude towards incompetence amongst a portion of the player base is very biased to an "elitist" point of view, but I'm not surprised to see such a cookie-cutter post. A post that seeks to stray away from the real issue and blame it on someone else.

GG. I challenge you to make a thread that is creative, innovative, or addresses issues that other like minded players can agree with. If you can make just one thread that can get some kind intelligent feedback... then, and only then, will I give you credit for your enormous post-count.

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1. It's completely ridiculous to think that anyone with intelligence would strive for a large post count merely for the sake of having a large post count. GreatGuardian is truly intelligent and has a sophisticated way of getting his point across. He's not the one with a problem. He's not the one creating threads. It's your responsibility to present your call for change, not ours.