Raise the Minimum Requirement for entering Abyssea to Lv70 or 75

[Akujima]

I'm all for choices as well. Solo Wamouras or pets, do MMM as opposed to traditional camps, level sync down as far as you want as opposed to partying at your own level. What I'm against is the erosion of accomplishments. This game is about accomplishments and feeling good about making those accomplishments. If people commonly, publically, and routinely plagarize their way through Master's and PhD's, it takes a lot away from from people who worked very hard, and I'm sorry you just can't understand that. So yes, it is my pride; I'm proud of my character "in a video game", as you've often and so perceptively pointed out, and my pride matters to me, as it does to everyone else who slashed, hacked, and burned their way through thousands of mobs to get to where they are today. And if someone thinks they can take that way, I will "get up on a high horse" and point out every reason why people shouldn't be doing it. This is a forum, a place where we can discuss and debate what should and should not be changed. So you're perfectly welcome to "get up on a high horse" and explain why you should get something for nothing.

*Knock, Knock, Knock*

The Judge has Spoken, Sentence Passed, Case Closed.


Way to slam the hammer down Panthera.
Uplifting Post.

[Chocobits]

*Knock, Knock, Knock*

The Judge has Spoken, Sentence Passed, Case Closed.


Way to slam the hammer down Panthera.
Uplifting Post.

What does plagiarism have to do with leeching? Plagiarism is passing off someone's work as your own. What about leveling to 90 in the current system is work? Why do you think xp needs a hard cap up until a certain level, where it can then skyrocket? What part of being 75+ entitles you to faster exp? I assume you're grinding it out the old way 75+ too so as not to be hypocritical.

Either way though, dead horse. The judge has spoken. He called a doctor. The doctor pronounced the horse dead at the scene. So what's your muffin of choice Akujima?

[Akujima]

What does plagiarism have to do with leeching? Plagiarism is passing off someone's work as your own.

Yea exactly. You standing around doing nothing in an Abyssea PT, while some other Godly Geared players farm EXP and do the work for you, so that you can call yourself Lv90 and tell everyone YOU leveled up to 90, when in fact someone else Leveled you up to 90.

[Chocobits]

You missed the part where I said "What about leveling to 90 in the current system is work?"

Also, godly gear? I dunno what parties you've been joining. The majority of parties I start/join are people in 5/5 Perle or Aurore, half of those are afk at any given time, the ones that aren't are wiping to dolls because the mages are afraid to stun/sleep for fear that 1 of their actions on a mob will pull hate from the DD skilling up staff/working on trial weapons.

What part of 90 is an accomplishment that you need to feel proud of? What part of being 1 of 18 idiots bashing a mob or curing the bashers is anything you would need or want to brag about? Leeches (doing their job) serve as an important part of a group by letting the DD do their thing without having to concentrate on chests. It's boring, thankless work that is slower than it needs to be because of all the gimp DD. I haven't averaged over 110k/hr in 5 of my last 7 DOM OPs parties. I am to the point where I will only join regular parties that aren't obsessed with turning in pages.

Also, I've been playing this game for 7 years. I think I have it down now, so I don't need someone else telling me that I "didn't learn my job" by leeching. Anything I don't know can be covered by asking a handful of questions after the fact. If anything, my play skill has gone UP since Abyssea, since I have had the opportunity to level jobs like SMN and RDM that I NEVER would have touched otherwise.

Also, you didn't answer the question about what about being level 75+ entitles you to more exp/hour?

Your arguments/concerns are silly, trivial, and are shared by a select few close-minded individuals who think time sink=challenging/fun/educational, and serve no purpose other than to try to impose your views on others.

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines.]

[Leonlionheart]

Yea exactly. You standing around doing nothing in an Abyssea PT, while some other Godly Geared players farm EXP and do the work for you, so that you can call yourself Lv90 and tell everyone YOU leveled up to 90, when in fact someone else Leveled you up to 90.

You're really over dramatizing this. I can't believe this discussion is still going on.

If SE was going to change it, they would have already.

[hiko]

I wasn't referring to the old EXP, which was slow and horrendous but more of just exploring the game and doing missions etc.

There's more to the game @ lower levels than just EXP.

and abyssea low cap have nothing to do with people exploring zones and doing missions

It just detracts from the game, to me, breezing through at 90 effortlessly. CoP was probably one of the best things the old dev team did, and they ruined it when they removed the caps.

I understand why they did it, but I still don't agree with it. It's hard to describe really.

same than previous quote

Yes, less intelligent, stubborn players cannot and will not learn, but smart players will learn as they go. They may pick up on things quickly. But it's just as hyperbolic to suggest that they know anything and everything automatically as it is trite but true to say that research goes a long way, but it's no substitute for "been there, done that" experience. That said, I'd rather have them learn on exp mobs than the final zone boss. Thus, leeching cheats the players themselves as well. That much is their own choice, but as no player in an MMO exists in a vacuum, it affects those that need to trust their judgement

the smart player will learn a lot more about how to play his job in few days of training on aby NMs (different ones,not brewing) will learn a lot more effithan 3month of stupid xp monsters (even if he sux on the first fight)

know me, and you don't have the right to make personal accusations.


I'm all for choices as well. Solo Wamouras or pets, do MMM as opposed to traditional camps, level sync down as far as you want as opposed to partying at your own level. What I'm against is the erosion of accomplishments. This game is about accomplishments and feeling good about making those accomplishments. If people commonly, publically, and routinely plagarize their way through Master's and PhD's, it takes a lot away from from people who worked very hard, and I'm sorry you just can't understand that. So yes, it is my pride; I'm proud of my character "in a video game", as you've often and so perceptively pointed out, and my pride matters to me, as it does to everyone else who slashed, hacked, and burned their way through thousands of mobs to get to where they are today. And if someone thinks they can take that way, I will "get up on a high horse" and point out every reason why people shouldn't be doing it. This is a forum, a place where we can discuss and debate what should and should not be changed. So you're perfectly welcome to "get up on a high horse" and explain why you should get something for nothing.

I haven't consider getting a job @75 an accomplishment since colibri burn exist unless it was your first job (you did the lol LBs) a 6 year old could grind xp to 75 ( I know people who lvled some of their job by letting their children play them)
IMO getting another job at 75(now 90) was just a (boring time sink) mean to do content in a different way (not always being the same job)

you can get satisfaction getting your lvl75 outside abyssea , you can even lvl it to 90 outside abyssea if you want (that might be worth being considered an accomplishment)

Yea exactly. You standing around doing nothing in an Abyssea PT, while some other Godly Geared players farm EXP and do the work for you, so that you can call yourself Lv90 and tell everyone YOU leveled up to 90, when in fact someone else Leveled you up to 90.

I leech in abyssea pt so that i can tell people "Hey, now i can come This job"
I recently leeched my war, few hour after that leech PT I was able to proc all the RED !! we couldn't proc before, we finished empys faster because we got 100% KI.

[Huevriel]

I like blueberry muffins, and my level 75 jobs. Maybe someday I'll make the jump to 90.

edit:
Having too much fun with gardening, chocobos, pankration, skilling up parrying, meritting and crafting than to level my three level 75 jobs.

[Panthera]

After going through the thread again, I'd like to summarize some of the reasons why some people are OK with leeching.

-Everyone is used to the extremely high exp now, and don't want to go back to slower rates.
-Abyssea leeching is a chance to spend time with friends, who wouldn't spend time elsewhere due to exp rates.
-People who can get Abyssea level exp won't party at slower rates.
-Parties are hard to set up, because there aren't enough seeking for outside areas, because of the difference in exp.
-People level jobs they never would have because of the faster rates.
-In terms of effort vs. payoff, it's unbeatable. You can get 90 by going afk and doing X.

I won't deign to argue against the "merit" of the final reason. But for all except the last reason, it's obvious that every thusly summarized reason to level in Abyssea relates to fast exp; they're all logically sound. However, none of the reasons make leeching not cheating, which is my contention.

What can be had is a compromise. Abyssea should be adjusted, but outside areas should be adjusted as well, as has been suggested. The idea is that outside areas should be adjusted in a way such that they are worthwhile enough to do for those who could do Abyssea if the entry level were adjusted.

I'm not saying that raising the level requirement for Abyssea should be contigent on adjusting outside areas, because the harm caused to the rest of the game are independant of such adjustments, but outside areas should still see adjustments. In other words, here's the logic.

Where A is Abyssea and B are Outside Areas

A harms B.

A should be adjusted because A harms B

A should be adjusted whether B gets adjusted or not, because A harms B.

B should be adjusted to make B almost appealing as A.

The result is that although the two can and will compete, it's not an all or nothing, do A or not at all type of thing.

This way, people can still get to 90 quickly, which is their goal, but still in a way that's specific to or supported by playing their job. No one's accomplishments are taken away, everyone wins. Now, the only possible reason I can see is that people just don't want to play their jobs to get exp. If that's the case...why level it at all?

[TybudX]

You're argument is stupid, and here's why. I have 2 alts. I burned them both to have several level 90 jobs using my main character's BLM. How am I cheating? How am I harming anybody? I am not leeching, I know just how hard it is to do quick pulls and check chests and open the right chests, all while spamming different macros for spells and gear sets so that I don't die.

By your definition, I am a cheater because 'leeching' inside Abyssea is inherently lazy, except I'm sure I'm working harder on all three of my accounts than you have ever worked for one minute inside Abyssea.

Also, your definition of cheating is stupid. If you go by it, you are cheating, since you obviously are not putting in as much effort leveling your jobs as I am. The least you could do is run two accounts at once. Then come talk about leeching being cheating.

[Greatguardian]

If SMN burning is not cheating, in what universe can you claim with a straight face that Abyssea Leeching is?

Keep in mind, the rules of the game are not yours to arbitrarily implement. To cheat at the game is to do something that is against the rules of the game. When no rules of the game are being broken, the use of a mechanic is not cheating.

The rules of the game are set by the Developers and Staff, not by history, tradition, or the player base. They have stated numerous times that Smn burning is not cheating, and have made no statement either way about Abyssea Leeching despite knowing of its existence. Until/Unless it is adjusted by them, or they comment on it, one can only assume that it does not break any rules.

Finally, you and Akujima tend to use a particular backwards argument when dealing with this sort of thing that just drives me crazy. "FFXI is an RPG and thus X, Y, and Z need to be in it". That's not how it works. You are trying to define the game based on its genre when it is the games themselves which define their genre. You do not look at FFXI and say "Well this needs to be an RPG, so the game needs to be this". You look at FFXI and say "Well, in this game you control a single avatar who explores the game world and gains experience points and skills, gaining new abilities over time, so you could call this game an RPG."

FFXI is FFXI. If it changes enough that it "does not deserve the title of RPG any more", they can simply change the genre. Not that your video game purism isn't wholly unappreciated nonetheless.

Also, there is no accomplishment for leveling jobs and never was. People really need to get that through their heads. I've seen level 30 players who were better at their jobs than "Main Job", old-leveled 90s who were too dense to look up even a single shred of credible information in their 7 years of playing the game.