No Timed Pop Notorious Monsters In New Expansion

If you read BG and pay attention to the Legion thread then you would know that they have been beat.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

Hi, my name is Kaerin, and Im a casual, and I hate world spawns, and I hate bots.

Today the LS I'm second in charge of did the final chamber in Legion, for the first time, our 5th run ever, and 75% of the LS is new, and we timed out right after Botulus and Ig spawned. As far as I know, no one has managed to defeat either of these mobs yet, and we would of killed one of them, if the ironclad didnt screw us over and kill our embrava mule so we didnt have that buff for the last mob in wave 2 or any of wave 3. I'm 15/15 on neo-nyzul gear, and I'm sure I finished this event before you. I'm responsible for creating the current 'best WAR TP set,' and I was probably the first person to have it, second at worst. Back in 2004/5 my LS was #1 on the BG Big Kills list, and I've always been better at this game than crap tier players who need to rely on bots and bad spawn mechanics to win at FFXI. Your attempt to degrade my opinion by calling everyone who is against world spawns a noob was a good try, but the truth is that I'm better than you at this game and I always have been.

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[Insert slow clap here]I wish I were as accomplished.

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Originally Posted by Habu

If you read BG and pay attention to the Legion thread then you would know that they have been beat.

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I dont pay attention, lol. But I edited it.

18 or 36 people?

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Originally Posted by Habu

18 or 36 people?

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18 (we brought 14 people, 4 mules)
http://www.twitch.tv/wish12oz/b/324173715
Skip to 10~ minutes in.

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Originally Posted by Tunasushi

You should know by now SE isn't listening to these whiners or cares about them, so idk what you're trying to prove. As I said in the other thread, these same people will never see neo nyzul gear, legion gear and probably nothing outside abys/vw gear.

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Doubt SE is spending any more time paying attention to the minority of people wanting HNMs vs the majority of people not wanting them. Also Neo-Events & Legion make no point, as many of the people opposing your idea are people who do these events, win these events, and get gear to walk away with from these events.

I decided this was to cruel, so I deleted it.

If you want a few tips that might help your runs out let me know. For the most part is was spot on.

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Originally Posted by Habu

If you want a few tips that might help your runs out let me know. For the most part is was spot on.

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I would like to hear any relevant advice, too. The last time my shell went to Legion we just barely scraped on by with a win, with 5 seconds to spare.

What chamber/chambers and what's your setup?

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Originally Posted by Habu

What chamber/chambers and what's your setup?

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Tier 1 chambers (we're trying to get a better feel for it before committing to higher tiers). Last time we went it was the land kings (Behemoth/Adamantoise/Wyrm) chamber. Three Paladins (with one kitting Adamantoise) and the rest mages, mainly Summoner and Black Mage, mana burning it with a couple support mages to assist the tanks (I was on White Mage, assisting the kite), full alliance. We go in, kill it from Behemoth, to Wyrm, to Adamantoise.

It starts out okay, but it gets hairy towards the middle. It doesn't get any better from there. So far we have had only one victory in this chamber.

As for the other two chambers I haven't been on for them but from what I have gathered it has not gone much better. Le sigh, and here I was hoping for an opportunity to learn Tourbillion. Just as well I suppose, the Khimeria probably doesn't even use it knowing my luck.

Hall of Muru:
Wave 1: Sandworm (CS) > Ixion (PD) > Amph
Wave 2: Sandworm (PD) > Ixion (PD) > Amph (PD)
Wave 3: Iron Giant (PD) >

for this can switch out anything for a RDm for CS

Hall of Ki:
Wave 1: Hydra > Cerb > Khim (PD)
Wave 2: Hydra (PD) > Cerb > Khim (PD)
Wave 3: Mantis (PD) >

Ideal Setup:
DDx5 WHM
SMN x5 COR
PLD SCH THF BRD CORx2 (1 COR + BRD rotated into main DD party)

Hall of An:
Wave 1: Behe + Ada (BLMs on Ada) > Jorm
Wave 2: Zilant (PD) > Behe (PD) > Tortoise (BLMs on from start probably)
Wave 3: Harpy (PD) >

Ideal setup: DDx3 WHM COR BRD
SMN x3 BLM x2 DD x1
PLD x2 WHM SCH RNG BLM x1

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Originally Posted by Habu

Hall of Muru:
Wave 1: Sandworm (CS) > Ixion (PD) > Amph
Wave 2: Sandworm (PD) > Ixion (PD) > Amph (PD)
Wave 3: Iron Giant (PD) >

for this can switch out anything for a RDm for CS

Hall of Ki:
Wave 1: Hydra > Cerb > Khim (PD)
Wave 2: Hydra (PD) > Cerb > Khim (PD)
Wave 3: Mantis (PD) >

Ideal Setup:
DDx5 WHM
SMN x5 COR
PLD SCH THF BRD CORx2 (1 COR + BRD rotated into main DD party)

Hall of An:
Wave 1: Behe + Ada (BLMs on Ada) > Jorm
Wave 2: Zilant (PD) > Behe (PD) > Tortoise (BLMs on from start probably)
Wave 3: Harpy (PD) >

Ideal setup: DDx3 WHM COR BRD
SMN x3 BLM x2 DD x1
PLD x2 WHM SCH RNG BLM x1

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I see. Do you know of any place where I can read a more in depth and clarified strategy for these halls? My google search didn't turn up anything useful except that the low tiers are easier low man than full alliance.

Thanks in advance.

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/108...and-strategies

is all I really know of. I know it's a long thread but most likely anything you need to know is in there.

Thanks. Hopefully I'll find what I'm looking for in that mess. If nothing else it gives kill orders (just by looking at the last two pages).

Other chambers:

Hall of Im:
Wave 1: Corse (PD) > Vampyr > Dvergr
Wave 2: Vampyr (PD) > Corse (PD) > Dvergr
Wave 3: Naraka (PD) >

Hall of Mul:
Wave 1: Mantis (PD) > Harpy > IG (PD) > Naraka (PD)
Wave 2: IG (PD) > Naraka (PD) > Harpy (PD) > Mantis (PD)
Wave 3: Ig-Alima (PD) >

Ideal Setup:
DDx5 WHM
SMN x5 COR
PLD SCH THF BRD CORx2 (1 COR + BRD rotated into main DD party)

What does PD mean in your examples? That those mobs have Perfect Deffense or that it's reconmended to have Perfect Deffense for them? If the latter why do you have instances of two to three PD reconmended but only one Paladin for ideal setup?

It means you use Perfect Defense for those mobs. In most cases a PLD(Aegis)+WHM can hold the other two mobs while DDs zerg down the third. This is true except for Mul where the PLD kites the mobs not being fought.

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Originally Posted by Habu

It means you use Perfect Defense for those mobs. In most cases a PLD(Aegis)+WHM can hold the other two mobs while DDs zerg down the third. This is true except for Mul where the PLD kites the mobs not being fought.

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So you have one super tank occupy two mobs while the third gets ganked? No wonder why our strategy was no more than spinning our wheels.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

Hi, my name is Kaerin, and Im a casual, and I hate world spawns, and I hate bots.

Today the LS I'm second in charge of did the final chamber in Legion, for the first time, our 5th run ever, and 75% of the LS is new, and we timed out right after Botulus and Ig spawned. Very few people have managed to defeat either of these mobs yet, and we would of killed one of them, if the ironclad didnt screw us over and kill our embrava mule so we didnt have that buff for the last mob in wave 2 or any of wave 3. I'm 15/15 on neo-nyzul gear, and I'm sure I finished this event before you. I'm responsible for creating the current 'best WAR TP set,' and I was probably the first person to have it, second at worst. Back in 2004/5/6 my LS was #1 on the BG Big Kills list, and I've always been better at this game than crap tier players who need to rely on bots and bad spawn mechanics to win at FFXI. Your attempt to degrade my opinion by calling everyone who is against world spawns a noob was a good try, but the truth is that I'm better than you at this game and I always have been.

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Heh, though i usually agree with your opinions i've always thought you were overwhelmingly rude (without meaning to insult) however i wish i could like this statement an infinite amount of times.

Hi
i'm a non casual and i do hate botting.... but i enjoy the concept of fighting hnm

just not have the spawn be once a rl day. :)

I love fighting huge bosses field and dungeon alike.

Oh and fighting kings was highly popular when ffxi was first starting. Just once ppl started getting black belt and drops, no one started to kill them.

i'm not after rewards, not asking for dumbed down content... just the ability to do the content. once a real life day even under a 20 hr playtime make it iffy to actually do the content. I perfer something that requires more machincs to it like in sky with kirin, or with hati in kon. Highlands. It makes it rare but doable by anyone. Cuz u still have to do the work of either getting the pop items, or understanding the spawn time. (not waiting around for a slight chance at it)

Well as I'm seeing, no matter what's said no one can leave another to their own play style. A video game like this should fit both audiences or neither imho. There's nothing wrong with the casual style and there's nothing wrong with people desiring more than that, why do you farm gear? For the same reason that other guy camps fafnir, only difference is how you chose to do it and what you prefer to do. Casuals screaming at hardcores for their preference in content is like yelling at someone for their choice in a burger at your local joint that differs from yours, get over yourself people have their own wants and likes, is that burger going in your mouth? Is someone forcing you to eat it? No. Same to the hardcores, who are you to tell people they aren't entitled to get their crap cause they have less time to play? I've asked for diversity in playerbase but the end results should be equal honestly if you wish to appease both crowds.

That being said, for the people in support of HNM, you guys push the elite button too hard IMO and make us all look like f'n jackasses. Most of us, like me enjoyed fighting exotic rare mobs that could floor us, not so much the prestige if there was any Norte gear so much. It always felt nice to claim, I've felt the bite of botters as anyone else but I've never taken the mentality of "I have to bot to win QQ HNM for botters only" ect. As I said earlier in this, theres no hnms out ATM, so no point crying, if they add them, look at content and see if it's good for both sides, if it's HNM only then I could see all this upset crap going on, also this is a forum, opinions are supposed to be expressed and discussed, not troll fest bullshit, that turns off people from these forums. Also, how are opinions supposed to be taken seriously or even looked at if the reps ect have to shovel thru miles of troll shit to find the points and comments that matter to the topic?

Winrie, can you please explain why, to anyone, extremely long spawns are, or should be, a good idea to put back in?

Before you answer, let me point out, as you said

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Most of us, like me enjoyed fighting exotic rare mobs that could floor us, not so much the prestige if there was any Norte gear so much.

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if this is the mentality of most of the hardcore players then why are the times to these spawns get included in opinions saying to do it? Were it not for the HNMs being time spawn, or at least this long of a time spawn, I doubt I would have anything of a problem. Also if the gear is no problem, why do some say they want special gear? This is my biggest problem. I am all for fun, hard fights, but when restricted to such a small amount of players, and giving something that is rare not because of difficulty, but limitations, it upsets me.

Now that I have explained, can you please explain to me how these would be good for the game, and its players?

To give another perspective.

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Originally Posted by Winrie

Casuals screaming at hardcores for their preference in content is like yelling at someone for their choice in a burger at your local joint that differs from yours, get over yourself people have their own wants and likes, is that burger going in your mouth? Is someone forcing you to eat it? No.

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The problem is not that people do not want to do the content, rather they are unable to. We don't have the money for that burger you want us to eat. If the event were only hard, not 20 hours to pop, not 4 hours of camping to see if you get it, just a really hard fight, that you can do with friends and ls members when you have time, and want to give it a go, like legion, I think people would be ok with it. The problem is the restrictions the time gives people, that makes the content very undesirable.

1. How about a new hnm or 2 with spawn conditions like Sandworm and Dark Ixion? I.e. they can spawn in any of a set number of zones, which make them more or less un-bottable - and to make it even harder give them multiple possible pop areas in each zone (like Sandworm). That way they can't be claimbotted, would that be ok with everyone who's so against new hnms because they believe it will bring back the bots?

2. Ridiculous windows like Tiamat - no thanks. But once a rl day, like the kings and SW/DI, with maybe a reduced window - 2 hours or something? How does that sound?

3. As for drops - well it's been suggested already, and it seems that most people who want hnms back agree that it's perfectly fine if the drops also come from another source, like king abjurations from Odin. Let's say the new hnms drop the same items as Neo-Odin, just as an example. What's so bad about that? And yes, SE took their time adding content where you could obtain king abjurations without having to actually camp kings - that doesn't mean they'd do that this time around.


I know it's hard to believe for the majority of the players, but some people actually enjoyed hnms and miss that aspect of the game. The thrill of the hunt, of getting claim (with out without bots, please stop believing that botting = guaranteed claim), the drama that often unfolded when competition claimed and started to wipe etc - some people actually found that fun. Oh and please don't elaborate too much on the "drama" part - I'm not talking about mpk attempts and things like that.


So in short, if the gear is obtainable elsewhere, no Tiamat-like windows, and pop conditions similar to SW/DI - would that be ok for all of you who're opposed to new hnms?

Gear obtainable via alternative source. 1~2 hour pop times. Yes, this is acceptable to me.

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

To give another perspective.The problem is not that people do not want to do the content, rather they are unable to. We don't have the money for that burger you want us to eat. If the event were only hard, not 20 hours to pop, not 4 hours of camping to see if you get it, just a really hard fight, that you can do with friends and ls members when you have time, and want to give it a go, like legion, I think people would be ok with it. The problem is the restrictions the time gives people, that makes the content very undesirable.

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i understand your point of time limitations and i respect your opinion on hnms. but like i said before i personally enjoy camping. u all are like grade schooler's i mean who cares what person a has if there rude blacklist them and be done your argument is u might not claim the nm (assuming u really try) or it might not be up when u get on.. who's to say they won't do like speed belt there's like 3 versions of it. lol each come from a different source, they dont have to be 21-24 why not 2-8 ? i don't have a Empyrean Relic or mystic. i dont really need them i still manage to have loads of fun. a peice of gear or armor doesn't make or break u. if it does in "your friends eyes" then u need new friends. all i'm trying to say is u all are fighting over something that may or may not matter. and to anyone who says camping is a waste of time. playing a game is a waste of time.

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

Gear obtainable via alternative source. 1~2 hour pop times. Yes, this is acceptable to me.

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lmao.

"It's only acceptable if it fits MY playstyle!!!"

gtfo lol and lol@ur sig. Abyssea will never be endgame.

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Originally Posted by Rosina

Just because I missed windows, doesn't mean I am ignorent to the inner workings...

You do realise hnm used to pop with in 24 hour cool downs based on last kill. In my experience outside server resets... said hnm typically poped around 12am-5am. That is how i missed spawn times i was sleeping, or doing sky or dynamis around then.

But in reality what does my missing spawns have anything to do with allowing or suggesting content be on such a large cool down timer?

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Has nothing to do with it, just wish your story was a little consistent.

Yeah I understand many can't do it due to time. I'm only in favor of of timed spawns again under certain circumstances, so you understand where I'm coming from:

Tiamat window length I can do without, this day and age I myself have a full-time job and a family to deal with among my rl. Idk what's a fair repop for everyone for a hard set of monsters with great gear.

I'm fine with timed spawns if there's alternate content that drops same stuff/alternatives that are just as good as HNM gear, appearance changes could be made between gear types to distinguish an avid HNM camper from a casual content dweller, which sates the desire for diversity in players IMHO.
Example: a hauberk with + 20 to stats that look like say an ebody that has some spikes or whatever on it and it glows drops off pink fafnir, while a similar hauberk drops off let's say a casual friendly dungeon boss and it has the exact same stats but doesnt have the same exact appearance. By looking at both ppl you see what guy time sinker HNM for his body and which one casually got. Idk, it's trivial tbh and serves no benefit other than to sate the diversity and wanting to look pro in your HNM gear. Cosmetic bullshit.

Personally I'd like a system of NM battles that actually gave me a
Need for a solid LS again that uses a win x times for x reward type of deal. Not like vw where it's all rng. NM can have low drop rates upon kill np but as long as veryone is guaranteed spoils ultimately everyone is happy.

To answer the question of whom it benefits to have HNM again: only the ppl who want HNM, it's one more thing for them to do, and it gives them somehinf they want too, and as I said, if alternate content grants equivalent to equal gear/same gear, no one loses and everybody wins, and in a business standpoint making the most people happy as best as possible is win win. But as with everything in life, not everyone will ve totally happy, and there will always be critics. Just a fact :/

Someone who can't play as much shouldn't be punished with unobtainable gear therefore alternative content with just as good rewards needs to be there, it has to be, or HNM can't happen again.

I.e. A world were I can go up to someone and tell them grata on their gear they jus obtained in casual content, an just because they got it in a different playstyle didn't make them Gimp compared to his HNM buddys HNM set, everyones happy, everyones pimp, the HNM guy jus becomes subject to moms basement trolls :3

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Originally Posted by Tunasushi

lmao.

"It's only acceptable if it fits MY playstyle!!!"

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No, simply the only time I will accept the content as good. When you make something most of your players will never see, or play, you waste your time and effort in my opinion. You want me to shut up? Agree, you want your hard fights, I'm ok with hard fights. You want time spawns, I'm ok with them if they are reasonable. You want rare drops, I'm ok with them if they are able to be gotten by more ways than 1 when the only 1 way is via a highly restricted piece of content.

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gtfo lol and lol@ur sig. Abyssea will never be endgame.

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I don't want abyssea to be endgame, I want endgame to be rewarding. I'm tired of wasting days and hours on a game getting literally nothing done on the game because every event is a massive dice roll to determine if I will get anything, or if I will get nothing. This is what endgame currently seems to be in most cases. NNI is a role of a die on so many levels, pathos, floor number, floor arrangement, floor contents, floor objective, so much luck involved. VW is much the same, role a die for procs, and for drops. Abyssea had a fair drop rate system, and was rewarding for time and effort, no other endgame I have seen since has lived up to it in that respect.

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Originally Posted by Winrie

Someone who can't play as much shouldn't be punished with unobtainable gear therefore alternative content with just as good rewards needs to be there, it has to be, or HNM can't happen again.

I.e. A world were I can go up to someone and tell them grata on their gear they jus obtained in casual content, an just because they got it in a different playstyle didn't make them Gimp compared to his HNM buddys HNM set, everyones happy, everyones pimp, the HNM guy jus becomes subject to moms basement trolls :3

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This wouldn't make the hardcore crown happy at all, if anything it would piss them off even further.

Their value isn't in the gear or even the accomplishment of killing the dangerous / "challenging" *cough* NM. The value is in other people not having the gear. They want it impossible for other players to obtain the gear, thus giving meaning to their no-job / school / social non-life.

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Originally Posted by Tunasushi

lmao.

"It's only acceptable if it fits MY playstyle!!!"

gtfo lol and lol@ur sig. Abyssea will never be endgame.

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You are a moron and here's why:
In Aby there's an VNM named Brulo, an evil Ifrit mob that will kill the entire alliance if you don't give it special handling. I doubt you ever fought him because your "I'm too awesome for this shit" mentality so let me explain this to you in a way that you'll understand. This Tier III VNM spawns in Aby Altepa once an hour, provided you have the pop for it. First you must, obviously, fight the Tier I and Tier II and have the abysites change color.

Now since fighting Altepa's Tier I VNM is a hassle, the typical way this is done is by sending the shell members to other zones to solo their own Tier I (with the favorite seeming to be Tahrongi, due to its high change rate and it's squishyness). Then everyone gathers in Altepa to fight a Titan mob.

This Titan isn't exactly the most challenging of foes, it could be fought solo with most damage dealers, but this isn't the issue. The issue comes from the fact that, like Brulo, the Titan has a long respawn time. To make maters worse it's also a common target for people farming Warrior seals, who camp it at the same time rather than go after easier to camp monsters. Also the Titan doesn't help change your Abysite colors very often (it's fairly uncommon, in fact).

You put all this together and then you have a situation where a dedicated camp of a full alliance spending 8 to 10 hours a day camping Brulo but only gets to fight it maybe four times, all for just one guaranteed magian trophy drop (for a trial that requires 50 said trophies) and a rare drop in the form of a highly coveted Black Mage scythe.

Yeah, sure. This isn't endgame. Moron.

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Originally Posted by saevel

This wouldn't make the hardcore crown happy at all, if anything it would piss them off even further.

Their value isn't in the gear or even the accomplishment of killing the dangerous / "challenging" *cough* NM. The value is in other people not having the gear. They want it impossible for other players to obtain the gear, thus giving meaning to their no-job / school / social non-life.

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There might be a select few who feel that way, however for the majority of the pro-hnm players what you just said there is a load of bullcrap. Not only that, it's insulting aswell, and the rl card is reeeeeeally classy.

I try not to troll anyone but the person who said that crap about the Titan being a long repop(it's 15 mins dude) and brulo bein hard, is a moron I'm sorry. Brulo is a tame child with a good ninja and whitemage. Same as a good pld wearing proper gear(not perle) same as with everything in abyssea.

And wtf @ 18 ppl camp brulo lol no indeed

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Originally Posted by Trisscar

and a rare drop in the form of a highly coveted Black Mage scythe.

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wat
are you serious?

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Originally Posted by Winrie

I try not to troll anyone but the person who said that crap about the Titan being a long repop(it's 15 mins dude) and brulo bein hard, is a moron I'm sorry. Brulo is a tame child with a good ninja and whitemage. Same as a good pld wearing proper gear(not perle) same as with everything in abyssea.

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15 minutes is a long time when you're competing against two or more other groups camping the same mob (for Warrior seals), especially if they're using hacks to do it. If they get it 3 times out of 5 that wastes 45 minutes of your camp. Didn't think of that, did you?

You also failed to address the uncommon chance of Titan's death changing your Abysite colors. I have personally spawned him around 30 times and got 2 changes from his death. If you have those same seal campers out camping you with their hacks that means I have spawned Brulo himself only once every three months. How is this that much different is this from HNM with overly long respawn rates?

As for Brulo I already said that it requires special handling (like you said, one Ninja or Paladin tank and a healer), rather just dog pilling on the damned thing otherwise it will turn nasty on you.

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Originally Posted by cidbahamut

wat
are you serious?

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It is coveted, amongst Black Mages that don't have it. Similar to that Great Axe that falls from that Hydra is for part time Warriors that don't aim for Empy. And since blue procs aren't usually exploited on Brulo the Scythe has a low drop rate (I think I've seen drop maybe 5 times). What part of this is hard for you to fathom?

I'm glad I stepped back from this argument so you guys could keep saying the same things over and over.