More nerfs for War & Ukkos.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

I can't speak on all of those jobs. Some of them are doing quite well actually, but in many cases, the other things that they are supposed to bring to the table besides damage are not very good / desired traits. Some of those jobs in events are like using a butter knife for a screw driver. If you have a couple things you need done, they will work, but when you have a big job to do, you need the right tool. The problem is that if you have 1 white mage in your group, then there is very little left for those jobs to do besides Kill Stuff. So if they want to be desired like war, they need to perform at least close to war in the damage department. The other traits they offer unfortunately don't make or break the fight in most cases.

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I completely agree with you, but i feel that their should be outrage over the ability's of these jobs instead of "nerf war so we suck less"

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This isn't about balancing jobs against each other, it's about balancing a job against the content.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Right, and instead of balancing the content...

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You misunderstood. Balancing a job against the content means adjusting jobs to suit the content, not the other way around. I agree that they have done a poor job, but most of that is a result of the previous cap and how jobs scaled up to that point.

Ukko's was just a case of not really needing to be adjusted immediately. Nearly everything was taking place inside of abyssea so it wasn't as overpowered as it is now in VWNMs. If SE took your advice and made the content tougher instead of tuning the broken WS it would only make things worse. The longer a fight lasts, the further and further ahead warriors would pull in front of everyone else.

I have first dibs on the inevitable future warrior catch phrase "I used to be an adventurer like you, then I took a nerf in the knee"

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Originally Posted by Vold

I have first dibs on the inevitable future warrior catch phrase "I used to be an adventurer like you, then I took a nerf in the knee"

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There is always Soul Calibur. They can't Nerf Astaroth or Mitsurugui. I can play them in peace.

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Originally Posted by Tsuneo

Nope, that's a two-part process. Balancing jobs against content isn't the same as balancing jobs against other jobs. Also, you seem to forget that every job doesn't need to massive damage to be useful. There's a few heavy DD's in the game, so I don't see why people think every job deserves to be equal with WAR on damage. Buff the heavy DD's and make the other jobs more useful for other things. That's how the game the game should be. It's a ridiculous idea to have a job like THF be on equal standing with a heavy DD.

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Sure, but that doesn't mean WAR should literally marginalise every other DD in the game.

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Originally Posted by Brolic

in what abyssea or vw?

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in voidwatch, it comes down to having a cor + savetp abyssite so i'm 3 hitting but he doesn't have AM for ODD up and I do. My total melee dmg crushes him and since we're both 3 hitting with roughly equal ws damage I pull pretty far ahead unless I get one shotted. It also negates meditate, its literally not worth the couple swings you lose to use med for sam's you just over tp, which sucks for them.

I'm not sure if you do but our main dd party gets brd + cor so you have to pay attention to not overtp and even then you still do from time to time.

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Originally Posted by Scribble

You misunderstood. Balancing a job against the content means adjusting jobs to suit the content, not the other way around. I agree that they have done a poor job, but most of that is a result of the previous cap and how jobs scaled up to that point.

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See here's the thing. We gained 24 levels. We are supposed to be insanely strong now. There's no point in a level increase if that doesn't happen. In this case, they are creating new content for new levels, so the content should be apropriate to the new level. They shouldn't be creating the content too weak, and then nerfing the newly leveled jobs back to it.

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Originally Posted by Scribble

Ukko's was just a case of not really needing to be adjusted immediately. Nearly everything was taking place inside of abyssea so it wasn't as overpowered as it is now in VWNMs. If SE took your advice and made the content tougher instead of tuning the broken WS it would only make things worse. The longer a fight lasts, the further and further ahead warriors would pull in front of everyone else.

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See again. A) the content should not have went into use when it was not matched to jobs/weapons that were already in the game, and B) warrior pulls ahead because other jobs are either too weak as DD, or have not been adjusted accordingly to fill other uses. Removing war doesn't suddenly make VW only beatable using red mage enfeebles, a ranger dealing damage, 2 thief trick attacking a paladin, and dancers there for the haste and cures / debuffs, a bunch of darks to ... do w/e .... see what I'm saying? They haven't balanced anything against anything.

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Originally Posted by Tagrineth

Sure, but that doesn't mean WAR should literally marginalise every other DD in the game.

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I am wondering what these "every other DD in the game" are.

Yes i know what the other DD are im just wondering which are the ones that you feel should be on par with WAR and SAM for damage?

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Originally Posted by Tagrineth

Sure, but that doesn't mean WAR should literally marginalise every other DD in the game.

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Like I said, Heavy DD's should have been brought up to speed with WAR, and the content should be on par with new offensive power of said Heavy DD's. The state of endgame now is a complete joke. Voidwatch is a piss poor attempt at endgame. Proc gimmicks and horrible drop rates that can't even be shared within an alliance is just pseudo-difficulty. Like it was mentioned before, there was no reason to level past 75 if we're going to have the same strength that we did at 75.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

See here's the thing. We gained 24 levels. We are supposed to be insanely strong now.

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That came and went with abyssea. Short of moving those buffs outside the zone and adjusting mobs accordingly, you're stuck on the same linear rails you were before it. SE has decided to revamp old content which plays a major role in why you progress upward in a linear fashion as opposed to exponentially as in WoW. It would take quite a bit of work to adjust the game in that way and I'd assume that SE has no intention of doing it. Thus, Ukko's needed to be nerfed.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

See again. A) the content should not have went into use when it was not matched to jobs/weapons that were already in the game, and B) warrior pulls ahead because other jobs are either too weak as DD, or have not been adjusted accordingly to fill other uses. Removing war doesn't suddenly make VW only beatable using red mage enfeebles, a ranger dealing damage, 2 thief trick attacking a paladin, and dancers there for the haste and cures / debuffs, a bunch of darks to ... do w/e .... see what I'm saying?

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A) The content was already slated for adjustments, but none of those adjustments included the use of atmas and other abyssea buffs.

B) I completely agree that they could and should adjust jobs to make them more useful(including warrior), but their encounter design needs to change. Jobs either need to provide something key to defeating a battle or provide buffs that give your group the edge. Balancing jobs vs content.

Removing war... you really think the nerf is going to hit you that hard? You'll still be at the top of the parse doing what you do best, it just won't be multitudes more than other jobs who provide the same. Balancing jobs vs jobs.

*EDIT*
In essence, nerfing warrior back down to the level of other DD is the same as bringing other DD up to warrior. The difference is that content can be left how it was intended to be. There are only two arguments for warrior here. One is that they aren't better than everything else for survivability issues, niche SC usage, ect. and the other is that they don't get to see big numbers. Both of them are lame arguments.

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Originally Posted by Scribble

That came and went with abyssea. Short of moving those buffs outside the zone and adjusting mobs accordingly, you're stuck on the same linear rails you were before it. SE has decided to revamp old content which plays a major role in why you progress upward in a linear fashion as opposed to exponentially as in WoW. It would take quite a bit of work to adjust the game in that way and I'd assume that SE has no intention of doing it. Thus, Ukko's needed to be nerfed.

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So they design a bunch of new abilities, increase your level by 24, and at the end take all the power they gave you back so that they don't have to build new content to go with it, and that makes sense?

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Originally Posted by Scribble

A) The content was already slated for adjustments, but none of those adjustments included the use of atmas and other abyssea buffs.

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What content are you referring to? I was unaware that you got similar buffs, or that they had even added said content yet (void watch is technically an offshoot of abyssea).

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Originally Posted by Scribble

Removing war... you really think the nerf is going to hit you that hard? You'll still be at the top of the parse doing what you do best, it just won't be multitudes more than other jobs who provide the same. Balancing jobs vs jobs.

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My point was that the nerf is not helpful. Even by removing warrior completely (the ultimate nerf) they don't render the content more difficult to complete (still not balancing against content), and the next strongest DD just replaces them (not balancing jobs either). The whole change is pointless and has no positives, only negatives.

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Originally Posted by Scribble

In essence, nerfing warrior back down to the level of other DD is the same as bringing other DD up to warrior. The difference is that content can be left how it was intended to be.

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Even if they absolutely had to nerf war, they should have worked on fixes and boosts to other jobs first.

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Originally Posted by Scribble

There are only two arguments for warrior here. One is that they aren't better than everything else for survivability issues, niche SC usage, ect. and the other is that they don't get to see big numbers. Both of them are lame arguments.

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There is actually a third argument: Why waste time building weapons, and meriting when its a crap shoot as to whether SE is gonna come take it away so they can save a few bucks on programming content? This game is entirely about progression. When legitimately earned progress is taken away on a whim, the game loses meaning.

I keep hearing that it's easier to balance by nerfing 1 job than by boosting a bunch of others, or changing all the content. The problem is that changing 1 job doesn't change the content or the other jobs. Besides that, this is a paid subscription service. If it was 4 of my buddies from the computer sciences department making it in a dorm room I'd be like "oh you don't have time to design that? that's cool, the games still awesome.", but its not. Its a paid service, and "that would be a lot of work" is never an excuse. I can't pull that at my job with my customers. Can you?

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

So they design a bunch of new abilities, increase your level by 24, and at the end take all the power they gave you back so that they don't have to build new content to go with it, and that makes sense?

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I don't know, I mean... I guess there are players who would be content to just keep adding abyssea areas. Did you honestly not know that eventually we'd have to leave abyssea? I guess Joachim is kinda a tease when he says that you'll get stuck if you stay in too long.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

What content are you referring to?

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The adjusted dynamis, nyzul, ect. Basically everything outside of abyssea that will be tuned to provide a reason for level 99 players to return. You don't get similar buffs, I was stating that to point to the fact that people aren't satisfied with anything else these days.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

My point was that the nerf is not helpful.

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It's not supposed to be 'helpful'. It's supposed to fix a WS that is broken and it serves that purpose.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Even if they absolutely had to nerf war, they should have worked on fixes and boosts to other jobs first.

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Other jobs have adjustments coming, but I'm still not sure why people continually bring this up. Ukko's is warrior exclusive so I'm not sure how other jobs benefit or suffer from an adjustment. You could argue that warrior doing more damage makes fights easier, but they're not going to be all that difficult without it being broken.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Why waste time building weapons, and meriting when its a crap shoot as to whether SE is gonna come take it away so they can save a few bucks on programming content?

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That's a question you have to answer for yourself. If you don't like the way the game is headed then you can see the door. If you're satisfied with the service then you keep paying and play.

The purpose of the game, and it is just a game, is enjoyment. If you don't enjoy collecting items for trials then I could ask you the same question; why waste the time? I really can't answer that for you, but I can say that I'm perplexed as to why you would do something you don't enjoy knowing that you really have no control over it other than not participating.

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Originally Posted by Scribble

Other jobs have adjustments coming, but I'm still not sure why people continually bring this up. Ukko's is warrior exclusive so I'm not sure how other jobs benefit or suffer from an adjustment. You could argue that warrior doing more damage makes fights easier, but they're not going to be all that difficult without it being broken.

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Other jobs will suffer because they aren't getting buffed. Those jobs still suck just as much as they always have. Keep in my SAM and WAR will still be the DD's of choice, so all this nerfing will be for nothing.

I don't understand why people are putting sam in the same group as war, it's a clear #2 but it still isn't close to war. Even with the "nerf" sam still gets crushed for the only real content worth measuring. Voidwatch.

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Originally Posted by Scribble

I don't know, I mean... I guess there are players who would be content to just keep adding abyssea areas. Did you honestly not know that eventually we'd have to leave abyssea? I guess Joachim is kinda a tease when he says that you'll get stuck if you stay in too long.

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I don't know why your referencing Abyssea here. Why would they have to make everything for 99 players happen in abyssea?

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Originally Posted by Scribble

The adjusted dynamis, nyzul, ect. Basically everything outside of abyssea that will be tuned to provide a reason for level 99 players to return. You don't get similar buffs, I was stating that to point to the fact that people aren't satisfied with anything else these days.

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I don't see how why that would have anything to do with nerfing 1-2 jobs.

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Originally Posted by Scribble

It's not supposed to be 'helpful'. It's supposed to fix a WS that is broken and it serves that purpose.

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How is it broken? What can you only beat if you bring an ukko war to the event? Is the something that ukko is making possible that isn't gonna be possible post nerf, besides wars putting up impressive numbers?

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Originally Posted by Scribble

Other jobs have adjustments coming, but I'm still not sure why people continually bring this up. Ukko's is warrior exclusive so I'm not sure how other jobs benefit or suffer from an adjustment. You could argue that warrior doing more damage makes fights easier, but they're not going to be all that difficult without it being broken.

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That's just it. If they are nerfing it to balance content, they have failed. If they are nerfing it to balance jobs, that means they are going to have to nerf a whole bunch of other jobs too. Just doing this to a couple of WS / abilities, doesn't really do anything. That means that either they did it for no reason, or there are a lot more bullshit changes coming. Either way, it's pretty screwed for the people owning / building those weapons.

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Originally Posted by Scribble

That's a question you have to answer for yourself. If you don't like the way the game is headed then you can see the door. If you're satisfied with the service then you keep paying and play.

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And that's the attitude that got us to where we are. "If you don't like it then don't pay for it, because we don't care what you think" is a poor business model.

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Originally Posted by Scribble

The purpose of the game, and it is just a game, is enjoyment. If you don't enjoy collecting items for trials then I could ask you the same question; why waste the time? I really can't answer that for you, but I can say that I'm perplexed as to why you would do something you don't enjoy knowing that you really have no control over it other than not participating.

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I'm perplexed as to why you would want to have no control over it. Why do you want them to come take the things you work for in this game? I think your point of view is far more perplexing than mine.

Ukko's is broken(mentioned pages ago) because of the modifier. A quick glance at the upcoming 'nerf' should have made that clear, but if you missed it 80% crit is ridiculous. Now that we got that out of the way, again...

When a WS is broken you make adjustments to that WS, not to the content. SE did fail, but the failure was not realizing how stupid such a high modifier would be on a high damage weapon considering how quickly people can fire off at 300 TP these days(stay tuned corsairs). If they had put everyone on godmode empyreans and the encounters were the same then you'd have a point.

The 'Don't like it, don't pay' business model has been working since dirt. The silly thing about all this is you keep saying that something is being taken away from you like warrior won't still be top DD. At worst you won't be able to post youtube videos or pics of big numbers, but you will still remain at the top of the parse, you will still be able to do your job and you will still be in high demand.

Why so sad?

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Originally Posted by Scribble

Ukko's is broken(mentioned pages ago) because of the modifier. A quick glance at the upcoming 'nerf' should have made that clear, but if you missed it 80% crit is ridiculous. Now that we got that out of the way, again...

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We didn't really get anything out of the way. All we have determined is that you think its too strong. Broken is when it has an unintentional effect. The weapon skilled is behaving exactly how they planned it, tested it, and allowed it to behave for months. They just decided to make it weaker.

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Originally Posted by Scribble

When a WS is broken you make adjustments to that WS, not to the content. SE did fail, but the failure was not realizing how stupid such a high modifier would be on a high damage weapon considering how quickly people can fire off at 300 TP these days(stay tuned corsairs). If they had put everyone on godmode empyreans and the encounters were the same then you'd have a point.

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They are revamping every major event for the most part. They just finished raising our levels. see the time line? First we get powerful weapons, then they add content for that. Not the other way around. We already had the weapons. The new content still hasn't even been finished.

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Originally Posted by Scribble

The 'Don't like it, don't pay' business model has been working since like dirt.

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FFXIV would beg to differ.

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Originally Posted by Scribble

The silly thing about all this is you keep saying that something is being taken away from you like warrior won't still be top DD.

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Your missing the bigger picture. They are nerfing it because fixing (insert w/e job it is you think is gaining from this <here>) is more work. This is actually a nerf to the game. Not war or monk.

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Originally Posted by Scribble

At worst you won't be able to post youtube videos or pics of big numbers, but you will still remain at the top of the parse, you will still be able to do your job and you will still be in high demand.

Why so sad?

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I'm sad, because I was hoping for some new fights that were different from ones in the past, and some new more powerful magic / weapon skills / abilities, that would be needed to defeat new more powerful enemies. But instead, they are just going to tune us down so that the old stuff isn't too easy.

I still don't understand your desire to rationalize this. What has a warrior or monk with a high WS number ever done to affect your life in a negative way?

The WS is overpowered. Period.

FFXIV actually proves my point. People got a shitty game and decided to voice their opinions by not playing. That was actually the reason these forums exist. Shortly after dumping Tanaka and apologizing profusely, SE decided an official forum to make players feel like their opinions would be taken into account. Instead, ignorant asshats think that SE owes them something and/or have decided they can do a better job designing the game.

For the final fucking time, they are not adjusting the WS because of some other job feeling inferior.

I wanted some better content too, but whether or not we get it remains to be seen. I don't have anything at all personal against either or any of the jobs in XI. I just don't think making an obvious adjustment qualifies as a cop out for adjusting content. It should be obvious to the oblivious.

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Originally Posted by Scribble

The WS is overpowered. Period.

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..... the WS isn't overpowered. Period. You have yet to describe any benefits to the damage to being lowered other than making it fit into your comfort zone for weapon skill power.

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Originally Posted by Scribble

FFXIV actually proves my point. People got a shitty game and decided to voice their opinions by not playing. That was actually the reason these forums exist. Shortly after dumping Tanaka and apologizing profusely, SE decided an official forum to make players feel like their opinions would be taken into account. Instead, ignorant asshats think that SE owes them something and/or have decided they can do a better job designing the game.

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Ermmm I think you better re-read what you just wrote there. How does a game failing due to lack of response to player input, and an official forum being created to rectify the problem, demonstrate the value of ignoring player opinion? And FYI: I Pay them. They do owe me something. If you disagree with this theory, feel free to send me all your cash. I promise to do nothing for you.

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Originally Posted by Scribble

For the final fucking time, they are not adjusting the WS because of some other job feeling inferior.

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I think I already stated 20-30 times that it will do nothing for any other job. Now that we cleared that up, please explain who it will help.

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Originally Posted by Scribble

I wanted some better content too, but whether or not we get it remains to be seen. I don't have anything at all personal against either or any of the jobs in XI. I just don't think making an obvious adjustment qualifies as a cop out for adjusting content. It should be obvious to the oblivious.

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Obvious would be concentrating on the 1,000+ threads on this site alone about game imbalance problems completely unrelated to the jobs currently in question. While I'm sure some will agree that the WS is overpowered, I highly doubt anyone was thinking that nerfing Ukko's and V smite was going to fix anything in the game, other than a couple of peoples egos.

I think this might help clear up some of the argument... a point in nerfing Ukko is to make more DDs become less unappealing (because their damage will be less overshadowed by WAR) allowing people to play a job that they enjoy, instead of bringing a job that can be played by facerolling and do massive damage.

However, I do agree that this is not the way that SE should be handling this. Yes instead they should be working on improving/correcting/release from beta(looking at smn) and not nerf; but SE is lazy and they want to kill their game and their reputation as a gaming company so that they don't have to listen to all the unhappy consumers(at least that's the message that I'm getting haha~. ff13, 14 and such contribute to this!).

Back on track, they only need to do a few simple fixes to the battle system tbh. Improve fTP values of the underpowered DDs and remove atk penalties. And for those that still love abyssea(though this makes complete sense in my mind) just make everything crit. Magic crits already, why can't all WSs crit normally now =\. Just a few ideas that I'm simply reiterating; they're all over the forums, but SE probably finds them overpowered/foolish/too much work/<insert reason here>.

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Originally Posted by Scribble

That's a question you have to answer for yourself. If you don't like the way the game is headed then you can see the door.

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This is one argument I see used by a lot of players when others are voicing their disapproval of something SE does. What you all seem to fail to realize though, is that if all the dissatisfied players quit, it will eventually directly affect those that want to keep playing. Too many people quitting = subscription numbers going down = server population going down = less income for SE = more server merges?

What really boggles my mind about this nerf, is that it took SE over 1 full year to decide Ukkos is "broken" and to nerf it. They even BOOSTED the damage at one point, ffs. It makes no sense and just shows a complete disregard for their playerbase, and I have to agree with those that believe this is a sign of things to come. I.e. it being highly likely that other jobs will be hit by nerfs in the future.

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Originally Posted by Tamoa

What really boggles my mind about this nerf, is that it took SE over 1 full year to decide Ukkos is "broken" and to nerf it. They even BOOSTED the damage at one point, ffs. It makes no sense and just shows a complete disregard for their playerbase, and I have to agree with those that believe this is a sign of things to come. I.e. it being highly likely that other jobs will be hit by nerfs in the future.

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Actually I don't think other jobs will be nerfed. SE specifically singled out WAR in the roadpath as having "an adjustment in firepower." It is right there in one of there announcements. When they made the restraint "nerf" they said future adjustments to WAR if the expected results isn't reached. (Who really thought the restraint adjustment was going to negatively affect anyone but the very best wars who fully used it.) They haven't made a peep about any other jobs, except RDM and SAM at 75 being too powerful. I would ignore something as old as their 75 statements anyway.

OK I think its time I give the war base a little history lesson because they could use it.

Remember the SAM nerf? What SAM got nerfed? When? After 2 handed update SAM got nerfed hard, they reduced 2 handed weapons from the broken state it was introduced at to its current state, at the same time they nerfed ygk at 100% from 1.5 ftp to 1.3785. This seriously hurt SAMs damage as they were no longer as adapt to doing the big numbers as was necassary to keep up with the heavy hitters, unless they got a hagun. It was from that point til Masamune was introduced that hagun was the only acceptable weapon for SAM, anything else was garbage. When it comes to content anytime it becomes absolutely neccesary to have 1 specific weapon then that job has become broken, from a game mechanics point of view, and therefore it needs to be corrected. After abyssea introduced many new gkts with strength far superior to hagun they finally unnerfed ygk, in fact they increased it from its original 1.5 ftp to a 1.56 ftp. So its not the end of the world, eventually content will come about to make everything better and SE will in fact unnerf Ukko's, but for now it is too powerful.

As for the arguements of setting difficulty to current power of jobs, well they actually did, its just war was too powerful and makes it seem way to easy. Now if they had set it to wars prenerf strength then how could any other job even participate? They wouldn't be allowed, hell most the shouts are ukko war or gtfo. Sure SAM may take its place at the head of the table for now, or most likely war will still be up there, but as long as war stays so far above everyone else SE will just flat out ignore giving you new content. You want new content for war right?

Finally time to end this war is the best DD ever and no one should be able to beat it ever nonsense. War was originally intended to be the melee jack of all trades, and master of none. However over the years SE has only been adding to its firepower, its funny because if you look at it logically DRK has the highest attack in the game, it also has an ability to sacrifice its hp for more damage. If you consider that then a DRK going all out should be the highest damage in the game, despite its killing itself to achieve this feat. War should always be a strong heavy dd, and by no means should a skilled war ever be out done by a non skilled whatever, but at this point noob wars with ukko's can outparse anything and thats just wrong.

I know it sucks having SE fuck with your job, I play DRK and PUP mainly and it has not been fun getting screwed every update til recently (Yeah PUPdate) but now war can join the rest of the jobs and actually get something decent.

Don't feel like changing all the gears, assumed a high level mob, ftp nerf of Y/G/K reduced damage of non hagun Sam by... ~2% if that...?

The blows SAM got from SE are not the blows you are thinking sherlock.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

Don't feel like changing all the gears, assumed a high level mob, ftp nerf of Y/G/K reduced damage of non hagun Sam by... ~2% if that...?

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also he completely fails to point out that sam and war were fully interchangeable at 75 cap (which is when the sam "nerf" was implemented), in a few ways sam pulled ahead for overall utility over war. It wasn't until ukko's that war completely dominated the scene. Truth be told this started before ukko's with the 80 cap. We noticed how war out performed every job on AV zergs without a relic or anything super impressive gear wise. Just basic stuff.

Something had to be done about ukko's it was too powerful (and yes war is the job that i'm on second most and I love it, but it is just ridiculously overpowered).

Even with this, it is still the premier dd in the game. it just won't marginalize every other dd job to such an extend.

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Originally Posted by Tamoa

What really boggles my mind about this nerf, is that it took SE over 1 full year to decide Ukkos is "broken" and to nerf it. It makes no sense and just shows a complete disregard for their playerbase, and I have to agree with those that believe this is a sign of things to come. I.e. it being highly likely that other jobs will be hit by nerfs in the future.

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If your job is too powerful, you can expect a nerf. In other MMOs that actually adjust the jobs skills and abilities, it happens quite a bit and people get used to it. If they were disregarding the playerbase, you wouldn't see any updates at all.

It's perfectly ok to state your disapproval, but at least pick something worthwhile to make a stink about. Who really feels bad for a job that post-nerf is still top DD and still the most wanted DD for most relevant content? Complete disregard... gtfo

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Originally Posted by Scribble

The analogy serves it's purpose if you actually understand the point of it. It is less work to fix one thing than to fix twenty other things.

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If they didn't just add a new WS with new animations for every weapon, you might have a point, but as it stands, you don't.

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Originally Posted by StingRay104

a DRK going all out should be the highest damage in the game

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You never saw a DRK with a Kraken Club? It IS the best damage in the game.

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Originally Posted by StingRay104

noob wars with ukko's can outparse anything and thats just wrong

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They actually can't.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

You never saw a DRK with a Kraken Club? It WAS the best damage in the game.

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more accurate

technically we don't even have 2 hours anymore ; ;

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Originally Posted by Scribble

If your job is too powerful, you can expect a nerf. In other MMOs that actually adjust the jobs skills and abilities, it happens quite a bit and people get used to it. If they were disregarding the playerbase, you wouldn't see any updates at all.

It's perfectly ok to state your disapproval, but at least pick something worthwhile to make a stink about. Who really feels bad for a job that post-nerf is still top DD and still the most wanted DD for most relevant content? Complete disregard... gtfo

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And whose to decide if a job is too powerful or not? I don't find Ukon war at its current state too powerful. Powerful, yes. Unbalanced compared to most other melee jobs, yes. But like plenty of others have said, you balance UP, not down. I.e. make the other melee jobs better. SE apparently has decided that Ukon war is "too powerful" - and like I said, it took them well over one full year to decide that, while they in the meantime indirectly even boosted Ukon war's damage.

This coming war (and Vere mnk) nerf, combined with their unwillingness to improve certain jobs which have been left in the dust (rdm and drk comes to mind), the utterly ridiculous new relic and mythic trials (I really hope they get adjusted down, a LOT), the already extremely tedious 95 empyrean trial (unless you have a shitton of gil and even then you are limited by actual supply) and other things, such as voidwatch reward system - yes it does show a complete disregard for their player base. In my opinion.

So gtfo yourself.

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Originally Posted by StingRay104

Finally time to end this war is the best DD ever and no one should be able to beat it ever nonsense. War was originally intended to be the melee jack of all trades, and master of none. However over the years SE has only been adding to its firepower, its funny because if you look at it logically DRK has the highest attack in the game, it also has an ability to sacrifice its hp for more damage. If you consider that then a DRK going all out should be the highest damage in the game, despite its killing itself to achieve this feat. War should always be a strong heavy dd, and by no means should a skilled war ever be out done by a non skilled whatever, but at this point noob wars with ukko's can outparse anything and thats just wrong.
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I read your whole post but these 2 lines bug me the most.

1: Jack of all trades, and master of none.

2:Noob wars out parsing anything

If WARS are anything there a base job. Which i can understand jack of all thing's melee "tho I don't like using that term with WAR it's more of a RDM thing." The master of none I don't quite agree with. WAR's have always had some of the best access to increase damage output and are still consider the best sub for that purpose. With UF they gain a WS that play into there strength's and that's what really has pushed WAR up to the fore front. Other's job classes deserve the same treatment in my opinion. So to say there a master of none just doesn't fit. Even before the level cap increase they were more than a solid DD.

Noob's do not out parse well gear DD jobs just because they have a Ukon. In abyssea atma's can be tailor made to make any one's damage output massive. Ukon WAR's benefit the most thanx in part of VV/RR/APOC/cruor buffs and Temp items. Which when all used can sky rocket there numbers. But out side against VWNM's or other mobs the table's aren't so lop sided.

These nerf's are not whats good for this game. The player base has been asking for better damage option for their job classes. And these nerf's are just and easy way of saying "look now they don't do so much damage." In the mean while there's no real improvement's that the player base actually wanted in the first place. People who main WAR or MNK who are effected by the changes are going to be upset and while they might not all collective quit it'll cause a butterfly effect down the line.

They are nerfing it now, so when they add the new crit+ critdmg+ armors ukko's won't be 100% crit.

I think the major issue is that if every job was brought up to the same level, then the content would have to be adjusted to the new baseline. If this happened, what about all the people who aren't able to get an empyrean weapon? Does it mean they shouldn't be able to do certain content because they don't have one specific weapon for their job?

I agree with the decision to balance these WS with others. I've always hated the mentality of "X job or gtfo". I have no problem with the uniqueness of what one DD has over another, but in the end all choices should be viable. Are the nerfs really going to hurt so much that nobody will want WAR or MNK ever again?

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Originally Posted by Xantavia

Are the nerfs really going to hurt so much that nobody will want WAR or MNK ever again?

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The nerf won't hurt WAR all that bad. As it was already mentioned, WAR will still be the premier DD. WAR is still going to completely destroy most jobs. The only thing it did was slightly close the gap between SAM and WAR. Nothing is going to change because those jobs that were less desirable are going to stay that way. There will be no positive effect for weaker jobs from this like people lead themselves to believe there will be.

I don't understand why WAR's are so annoyed with the nerf, being the strongest DD already and STILL ARE even after the nerf. I gander the lot of you are a bunch of muppets.

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Originally Posted by Meldity

I don't understand why WAR's are so annoyed with the nerf, being the strongest DD already and STILL ARE even after the nerf. I gander the lot of you are a bunch of muppets.

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Why would anybody be happy about having something they like taken away? Think about it.



FYI: This nerf isn't just to war. It's monk, and to some extent pup too. Half the people in this thread arguing against the nerf don't even play hose jobs, and half the ones arguing for it do.Gotta look at the bigger picture.

EDIT: Muppet.... seriously? Try harder.

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Originally Posted by Tamoa

And whose to decide if a job is too powerful or not?

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The developers. I'd like to hope that most of us saw it coming, but apparently there are many warriors who are bum-blistered because they can't take the power they had in abyssea outside to play.

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Originally Posted by Tamoa

Unbalanced compared to most other melee jobs, yes.

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You could have stopped there.

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Originally Posted by Tamoa

But like plenty of others have said, you balance UP, not down. I.e. make the other melee jobs better. SE apparently has decided that Ukon war is "too powerful" - and like I said, it took them well over one full year to decide that, while they in the meantime indirectly even boosted Ukon war's damage.

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The other jobs are much better balanced to the current content than warrior. What you are suggesting is that SE adjust all of those jobs and then adjust all of that content to suit one job. Narcissistic much?

"Dear SE, redesign the entire fucking game around me. I am supposed to be the top DD and I'm obviously the most important. kthx"

"Dear entitled warrior. I have run out of tissues, but you are still the top DD so please stop crying. <3 Tanaka"

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Originally Posted by Scribble

The developers. I'd like to hope that most of us saw it coming, but apparently there are many warriors who are bum-blistered because they can't take the power they had in abyssea outside to play.

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It wasn't just war. You seem to have a vendetta.

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Originally Posted by Scribble

You could have stopped there.

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Why, because all you care about is making jobs that you don't like weaker?

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Originally Posted by Scribble

The other jobs are much better balanced to the current content than warrior. What you are suggesting is that SE adjust all of those jobs and then adjust all of that content to suit one job. Narcissistic much?

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There you go again. First off they didn't just nerf 1 job. Second, They need to a adjust all those jobs, which means they need to adjust all the content anyways. Your fear of giant phallic Great Axes has clouded your vision. In reality, it would have made a lot more sense to design the content correctly the first time.

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Originally Posted by Scribble

"Dear SE, redesign the entire fucking game around me. I am supposed to be the top DD and I'm obviously the most important. kthx"

"Dear entitled warrior. I have run out of tissues, but you are still the top DD so please stop crying. <3 Tanaka"

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You are very short sighted, and a little emotional considering the fact that you think this is a positive change. why are you so mad?

TBH I don't have anything against warrior specifically. I do have something against people who feel that their job is entitled to be better that everything else; so much so that they are so blinded by it that they can't recognize that changes to reduce their power are warranted.

I've only mentioned warrior because this is after all, the warrior forum. In your previous post you mention MNK and PUP, but hardly anyone mentions Blood Rage which actually has a broader impact and affects more jobs than that.

She could have stopped there because she'd admitted that warrior was overpowered and not balanced in relation to other jobs. I'm not going to pretend that other jobs including warrior don't need adjustments. Everyone wants a powerful job, but the fact is that the content doesn't support it.

You keep ignoring it, but I'll keep stressing the fact that XI scales more in a straight line than an exponential curve. The abilities jobs have gained access to in the past 24 levels, the support abilities that have been made available and the increase in the quality of gear are all outpacing the content. I agree that this needs to be looked at, but it's obvious that certain jobs have gained more from that effect than others.

I'm not mad, just annoyed. I find it ironic that warriors are upset for whatever reason and somehow attach other jobs needing buffs to it. Warrior has been viable since day 1. All of a sudden your broken damage is scaled back and everyone comes to the defense of RDM and DRK... wtf?

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Originally Posted by Scribble

TBH I don't have anything against warrior specifically. I do have something against people who feel that their job is entitled to be better that everything else; so much so that they are so blinded by it that they can't recognize that changes to reduce their power are warranted.

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It's funny, because at least 10 times i have said (and you have quoted some of them) that the issue was with them not scaling content, and not buffing jobs that desperately need it. I also said: "Half the people in this thread arguing against the nerf don't even play those jobs, and half the ones arguing for it do.". Take a look for yourself, and see how many of these "people who feel that their job is entitled......" actually have Ukkons.

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Originally Posted by Scribble

I've only mentioned warrior because this is after all, the warrior forum. In your previous post you mention MNK and PUP, but hardly anyone mentions Blood Rage which actually has a broader impact and affects more jobs than that.

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Yes, they also mentioned enhancing double attack etc. This part appears to actually be a nerf to everyone but war really. Again not really any help to the jobs that need it. More of a side grade to war depending on what "phase 2" is.

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Originally Posted by Scribble

She could have stopped there because she'd admitted that warrior was overpowered and not balanced in relation to other jobs. I'm not going to pretend that other jobs including warrior don't need adjustments. Everyone wants a powerful job, but the fact is that the content doesn't support it.

You keep ignoring it, but I'll keep stressing the fact that XI scales more in a straight line than an exponential curve. The abilities jobs have gained access to in the past 24 levels, the support abilities that have been made available and the increase in the quality of gear are all outpacing the content. I agree that this needs to be looked at, but it's obvious that certain jobs have gained more from that effect than others.

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And this is exactly the problem. If they don't fix the content, the only thing left to do is keep weak jobs weak, and make strong jobs weaker. That is a terrible design, and totally screwed for people who put work into these jobs / weapons. Everyone should be pissed about this. Especially people who are on jobs / weapons that aren't good right now.

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Originally Posted by Scribble

I'm not mad, just annoyed. I find it ironic that warriors are upset for whatever reason and somehow attach other jobs needing buffs to it. Warrior has been viable since day 1. All of a sudden your broken damage is scaled back and everyone comes to the defense of RDM and DRK... wtf?

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Because believe it or not, it is possible to have war, rdm, and drk leveled and geared all at the same time. I have yet to meet the guy who built ukkon or vere, and only has 1 level 99 job.