Job Adjustments manifesto Discussion

If I can't do it naked, I can't do it at all.

Classic.

As an aside, you should level Paladin and frequent those forums too. Apparently, Ochain fixing everything that was wrong with shields doesn't count either because no one whining about it has the motivation to get off their lazy bloody ass and get one. Badelaire+2 is even easier, no excuses.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Fix through gear, thus meaningless in terms of base design of the class. And why should we put up with Fast Blade (discount lolSavage Blade) as the only useful sword WS we get until we complete an empyrean at lv90? We're supposed to be proficient with swords and yet we miss out on the bread and butter WS in the leveling process.

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As an all-rounder I wouldn't say you're meant to be "proficient" in any one aspect, more you're meant to be OK at everything, which is why you're left off the high tier WS.

More dodging of the point. RDM has access to CDC which is the same high tier WS being used by PLD and BLU.

Either you work towards it or you dont. Sword has always been a soso weapon type in terms of doing damage anyway.

To be fair that was also in part because a few swords were stupidly powerful and giving them better WSs would have been a real quick way to break a couple of jobs.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

If I can't do it naked, I can't do it at all.

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If you want the short version: Proper design has faculties that "are" when looking at the class at the baseline, and "get stronger" when you toss gear in. Things like Almace and CDC makes something that "isn't" into something that "is". I don't think I need to go into specifics, but suffice to say, a role or style of play that is not something you grow into (which is basically the larger issue with Red Mage melee) is an indicator of bad design. You want to play at the hybrid, you have to make the choices available. Almace should be something that makes RDM melee stronger, NOT something that takes it from lol to acceptable.

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As an aside, you should level Paladin and frequent those forums too. Apparently, Ochain fixing everything that was wrong with shields doesn't count either because no one whining about it has the motivation to get off their lazy bloody ass and get one.

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Considering that this is stuff that the player should grow into, I agree with that crowd. You're somehow thinking it is alright for gear to be on/off switches for gameplay, whereas I look at gear as something that should enhance and strengthen what's already there.

Besides, is it that damn difficult to fix shields to work properly?

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Originally Posted by Duelle

If you want the short version: Proper design has faculties that "are" when looking at the class at the baseline, and "get stronger" when you toss gear in. Things like Almace and CDC makes something that "isn't" into something that "is". I don't think I need to go into specifics, but suffice to say, a role or style of play that is not something you grow into (which is basically the larger issue with Red Mage melee) is an indicator of bad design. You want to play at the hybrid, you have to make the choices available. Almace should be something that makes RDM melee stronger, NOT something that takes it from lol to acceptable.

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Somehow, I don't get you. You first say that it should make RDM melee stronger (it does) not making it acceptable....wait, what?

Nobody is going to mind you meleeing on trash mobs, even on seal mobs. Anything harder, you would have to justify the TP fed to the mob by the damage delt on CDC. Which you can, believe it or not.

Instead of being super negative about your job, why not strive to make it outstanding, which anyone can do inside Abyssea. Will you beat an Ukon WAR in terms of damage and tankability? No, but then again, you weren't supposed to either. Take what you got, and go with it.

Besides, Savage Blade isn't lol. Death Blossom isn't lol either. And that is a RDM only WS, incase you forgot or don't have.

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Besides, is it that damn difficult to fix shields to work properly?

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Wait, you want 100% block rate for all jobs who can equip a shield? Wouldn't that be broken and also make PLD worthless?

CDC > Vorpal Blade > Death Blossom > Savage Blade > Fast Blade.

You can wiggle Sanguine Blade in above Savage at times, but the problem with the general chain of progression is that RDM lacks a native Vorpal (And Sanguine), DB requires 75+ and running a particular event, Savage is a quested WS, and Fast Blade of course being our first WS and basically the holdover until SB (We also miss out on RLB or Seraph Blade without a special sub).

These "mile stones" are like a series of steep climbs instead of a gradual progression. Yes, when you hit them, they may be effective to a degree, but the primary issue is the gap between the haves and have nots, and even the haves are scorned for reasons RDMs have been throwing at SE for years. I love how GG tried to slip in that cheap shot about how RDMs play is how SE has deemed to gear them because that's how we play, but as I've said before, that's a catch 22 or chicken and the egg scenario. The way RDMs play and have played is not a result of people choosing one style over another with all things equal. No, the deck has long since been stacked in the caster favor when it comes to gear, abilities, traits, the earlier mentioned restrictions in WS, and the general social need of support/curative jobs in an MMO with the gross misconception that early day WHMs couldn't do what RDM was. Add some nerfs to enmity generation, with Tranquil Heart on top of that, and even the tanking style got boned for reasons we're really not sure why, as far as RDMs go, at least.

Nobody's saying that RDMs shouldn't have gear to chase, but the lack of strong hybrid options effectively doubles the effort a RDM has to put forth if they truly wish to be versatile as a mage and melee. With the stigma against melee, when you see a RDM asking to do whatever to improve their martial prowess, it's not uncommon for people to not want to help if there's nothing in it for them (And I still say the best way for a RDM to get an Almace is to be a BLU, which is its own level of wrong). And while people love to hate on the Teal/Perle/Aurore sets, they put out a modestly acceptable baseline for people of their given jobs to start at and build upon if they hadn't been running the 75 treadmill to get the best of the best the old cap had to offer. When you compare the Haste/STR/DEX/ACC/ATK of Perle to just Turban/Dusk Gloves/Dusk Ledelsens, even though the latter is lower level gear, the gap is pretty huge. Even when you start throwing in more incrementally difficult pieces to acquire like Goliard Body or augmented pants (And before you guys rage, it's more about the inability to just buy at the AH), while Haste values may start closing in on each other, the other stats are still largely untouched. This, at present, eventually becomes the best RDM can get, with a CDC weapon being more of a must have instead of a finishing touch (You don't exactly see: "No Ukko's? No thanks!" when it comes to WARs, do you?). Meanwhile, all those "gimp" DDs using the mentioned sets have continued growth beyond that, some not even needing Empyrean weapons to spank a RDM.

We're well beyond the point of justification with the "Well, that's all they can do!" angle. We've seen SE throw out various abilities over the years with pros and cons. Something can be done while allaying the fears of the balancemongers, to satisfy all parties, but the fact even the more simplistic and reasonable requests have been paid no heed is perhaps the most infuriating part of this years long issue. I know it's easy for it to be a non-issue for some, or you get those who sit back smiling in spite over their perceived RDM's fall from grace because "they took their job" or "soloed something they shouldn't" in the past.

With the Jack angle being more of a player demand/sanity check, conceptually it falls flat when one side grows too strong over the other, broaching more into the territory of a specialist. While we're certainly curious about new enfeebles and improvements to current ones on top of that, such is a straying from the versatility that drew some to the job. Perhaps more cynically, if you're never asked to do something, it's not a job feature, and I've never in my 8 years of playing see a leader do a /sea all for a RDM to ask for a melee. Hell, I haven't, either, knowing the shortcomings. The relationship between RDMs and SCHs is particularly troublesome at the moment, as they're going to be very similar jobs at 99, many feeling SCH will be outright superior without things to make RDM stand out. Enfeebles could do that, yes, but some will be disappointed if improved swordplay is not on the table since it's something SCHs don't have.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Somehow, I don't get you. You first say that it should make RDM melee stronger (it does) not making it acceptable....wait, what?

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I get the feeling you're pretending to not understand me, but alright. What I'm getting at is on a baseline level, RDM melee should be acceptable by the time you can even start considering making an Almace. Almace and CDC would therefore be boosts to an already-working playstyle. Almace right now is an on/off switch.

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Besides, Savage Blade isn't lol. Death Blossom isn't lol either. And that is a RDM only WS, incase you forgot or don't have.

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Savage Blade is pretty lol, actually. Admittedly, not by design but more because of how people expect you to play in the front lines (AKA reach 100 TP and let loose, NOT get 300 TP and let loose which is what Savage Blade was designed for).

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Wait, you want 100% block rate for all jobs who can equip a shield? Wouldn't that be broken and also make PLD worthless?

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You're putting words in my mouth.

Either way, Shield design is pretty bad, since (and I mentioned this once somewhere around here) it is entirely reliant on block, shield size and little else. Generally (as in other games and even some past FFs), survivability increases just from equipping the shield alone before factoring blocks and everything else. A proper way to deal with things would be to go that route (by having the shield boost passive damage mitigation, some avoidance, maybe even some parry and have it scale with VIT or STR) and then buff PLD to be the job that gets the most out of that. Sure, you're also buffing anyone who has access to shields, but it also fixes something that doesn't work as it should. Kind of like defense rating.

Ignore Korpg, Duelle. He is anti-melee SMN. Since no one has bothered figuring out how to make melee RDM stronger than melee SMN, he will spout random numbers forever.

If he mentions:
1) lack of accuracy
2) lack of attack
3) TP feed
4) WAR, Byakko's Axe, Ukon or otherwise

He's in blind rage mode. These are all arguments that someone else proposed and he has assimilated.

Dallas, shush, the adults are talking now, go back to playing with your letter blocks like a good little kid.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

I get the feeling you're pretending to not understand me, but alright. What I'm getting at is on a baseline level, RDM melee should be acceptable by the time you can even start considering making an Almace. Almace and CDC would therefore be boosts to an already-working playstyle. Almace right now is an on/off switch.
Savage Blade is pretty lol, actually. Admittedly, not by design but more because of how people expect you to play in the front lines (AKA reach 100 TP and let loose, NOT get 300 TP and let loose which is what Savage Blade was designed for).
You're putting words in my mouth.

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I don't care if you want to melee, go ahead. You can make your RDM play the way you want, I'll do it with mine. I'm not putting words in your mouth, I'm just stating that neither Savage Blade nor Death Blossom is bad at all. If you think doing 2k damage on either one is bad, then that is you.

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Either way, Shield design is pretty bad, since (and I mentioned this once somewhere around here) it is entirely reliant on block, shield size and little else. Generally (as in other games and even some past FFs), survivability increases just from equipping the shield alone before factoring blocks and everything else. A proper way to deal with things would be to go that route (by having the shield boost passive damage mitigation, some avoidance, maybe even some parry and have it scale with VIT or STR) and then buff PLD to be the job that gets the most out of that. Sure, you're also buffing anyone who has access to shields, but it also fixes something that doesn't work as it should. Kind of like defense rating.

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If I understand you correctly, your main gripe isn't shield, but it is how Defense is figured in this game. Well, I can't help you there, maybe somebody else can talk to you about Defense and stuff like that.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Ignore Korpg, Duelle. He is anti-melee SMN. Since no one has bothered figuring out how to make melee RDM stronger than melee SMN, he will spout random numbers forever.

If he mentions:
1) lack of accuracy
2) lack of attack
3) TP feed
4) WAR, Byakko's Axe, Ukon or otherwise

He's in blind rage mode. These are all arguments that someone else proposed and he has assimilated.

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Dallas there's no comparsion between SMN melee and RDM melee. RDM was implemented as a light melee/nuker/healer hybrid. SMN on the other hand was a backline pet mage. I've nothing against RDM melee, I've seen it do great as a light DD(and this is without the need for phony numbers to back it up).

Raz, if you haven't levelled staff skill, go back to the other thread.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Raz, if you haven't levelled staff skill, go back to the other thread.

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My skills are more than leveled enough to understand the difference between a mage(SMN) and a DD*.

* WAR, SAM, DRG ETC.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

I don't care if you want to melee, go ahead. You can make your RDM play the way you want, I'll do it with mine. I'm not putting words in your mouth, I'm just stating that neither Savage Blade nor Death Blossom is bad at all. If you think doing 2k damage on either one is bad, then that is you.

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Nice of you to ignore my points with a stock "I don't care" response. Also, try to read the quotes in the proper order and context. The words in mouth bit is on shields, not on Red Mage melee.

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If I understand you correctly, your main gripe isn't shield, but it is how Defense is figured in this game.

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Try reading what I say instead of making random claims. Shield is part of a greater whole in the game of damage mitigation. As I said, normally survivability is supposed to increase from just equipping the shield. What we have here instead is blocks and shield size coming into play while the shield is a stat stick, sans the stats.

I don't know what you want, you are being very confusing.

About the shields: Think about it. If you have a huge shield that can block your entire body, wouldn't that be able to block the most damage that is coming to you? But wait, a huge shield must weigh a ton, so it is hard to use it effectively. Hence the "Tower" sized shield. Bucklers are the same way: Small shields that can block more often, but not as much blocking damage part, hence the "Buckler" sized shields. Shields in between block less damage than the towers, but more times than the towers, but block more damage than the bucklers, but less times than the bucklers.

I honestly think that you want DT- on your shield, that is what I am getting from you. But you will just accuse me of putting words in your mouth again, won't you?

Guys, RDM and SMN melee is silly. 2k is not good damage in abyssea, go back to refresh, haste, blind, paralyze, slow: like what the job is obviously for. K.

Just gonna make you mad but you need to be put in your place!

Hey, if he can continue to buff/debuff, I'm ok with him meleeing on trash mobs.

Important stuff, he can go watch like Dallas does.

Well on EXP mobs who cares.

But if you GET CLOSE TO AZDAJA I will SCREAM YOUR F***ING EAR OFF.

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Originally Posted by Razushu

Dallas there's no comparsion between SMN melee and RDM melee. RDM was implemented as a light melee/nuker/healer hybrid. SMN on the other hand was a backline pet mage. I've nothing against RDM melee, I've seen it do great as a light DD(and this is without the need for phony numbers to back it up).

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When are these meaningless debates going to end?

All jobs who can walk up next to a mob and melee it, without significantly hurting their role, is fine, right? I'm pretty sure both RDM and SMN can do that. Well, GOOD RDMs or SMNs. I won't make a statement that anyone could do it without putting effort into it.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

When are these meaningless debates going to end?

All jobs who can walk up next to a mob and melee it, without significantly hurting their role, is fine, right? I'm pretty sure both RDM and SMN can do that. Well, GOOD RDMs or SMNs. I won't make a statement that anyone could do it without putting effort into it.

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Unfortunately they're probably only going to end when Dallas stops being enteraining, and right now it's still too much fun poking him to let up. I apologise if I upset any of the more sensible meleeing mages out there, but I'm not actually attacking mage melee. I'm just playing with Dallas. Mage melee like most things has a place somewhere in this game, and like I've said before if the mobs weak enough and no one else involved minds go for it.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

When are these meaningless debates going to end?

All jobs who can walk up next to a mob and melee it, without significantly hurting their role, is fine, right? I'm pretty sure both RDM and SMN can do that. Well, GOOD RDMs or SMNs. I won't make a statement that anyone could do it without putting effort into it.

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Yet, Great SMNs don't need to melee to still get the kills they need, and can solo harder stuff than Groundskeepers and such.

But that is besides the point....or is it?

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

Just gonna make you mad but you need to be put in your place!

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I have no doubt you think you are the bandwagon Ukon WAR for the job.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

I have no doubt you think you are the bandwagon Ukon WAR for the job.

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Sorry guy, played WAR since /nin was the only sub for it, and you leveled in sky. Not bandwagoned at all.

At least there are people bandwagoning it, not so much could be said for SMN melee lul

Edit: Well lol maybe it was bandwagoned back then?

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

Edit: Well lol maybe it was bandwagoned back then?

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I believe WAR/NIN was bandwagon until the 2h update, when SAM replaced it. Ukon is the bandwagon I was referring to, but it's only part of my point. I'm actually poking fun at the futility of using bandwagon arguments against someone who has created bandwagon.

A melee job rushing out to get the emp weapon to brag about being the best is bandwagon. Yes, that includes non-traditional melee like myself. It's not identical but it's close. The main difference is that emp staff is a game changer.

So on one hand, I have a Ukon WAR saying "you should be in the back with all other SMN," and on the other hand, I have my own emp weapon saying "unlimited MP when SE is telling us we'll need unlimited MP." I already have everything I need. There's no way I'm hopping on the short bus with all the cryers and complainers.

So basically WARs, get used to it. If you are meleeing, I'll be meleeing.

For all of Asura's mental failure, I'm sorry that Fenrir has to deal with Dallas.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

For all of Asura's mental failure, I'm sorry that Fenrir has to deal with Dallas.

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His wiki forums profile claims he's on Carbuncle, so we may yet escape his idiocy.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

I believe WAR/NIN was bandwagon until the 2h update, when SAM replaced it. Ukon is the bandwagon I was referring to, but it's only part of my point. I'm actually poking fun at the futility of using bandwagon arguments against someone who has created bandwagon.

A melee job rushing out to get the emp weapon to brag about being the best is bandwagon. Yes, that includes non-traditional melee like myself. It's not identical but it's close. The main difference is that emp staff is a game changer.

So on one hand, I have a Ukon WAR saying "you should be in the back with all other SMN," and on the other hand, I have my own emp weapon saying "unlimited MP when SE is telling us we'll need unlimited MP." I already have everything I need. There's no way I'm hopping on the short bus with all the cryers and complainers.

So basically WARs, get used to it. If you are meleeing, I'll be meleeing.

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1) A melee job going out to get the best weapon for melee isn't bandwagon it just makes sense.

2) a melee weapon for the weakest class in the game and a player insisting it is somehow now a frontline DD is not a game changer, unless the change you're trying to push is the return of lolSMN.(Everyone with sense knows mage melee is for exp/fun/trash mobs.)

3) Everyone has unlimited MP nowadays inside and outside Abyssea.

4) If insist on meleeing everything I'd get used to being kicked from every party you get in, unless your ls/flist are willing to put up with a gimp DD.

ITT: Bandwagon = Trying to be the best you can.

I'll live with bandwagon.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

ITT: Bandwagon = Trying to be the best you can.

I'll live with bandwagon.

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The real question is, if god forbid the majority of the SMN populace started thinking they were melees. This would then be the "bandwagon". Would Dallas drop meleesmn? Would he start advocating something else for fulltime, like backline DRK or PUP/RNG?

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Originally Posted by Duelle

I get the feeling you're pretending to not understand me, but alright. What I'm getting at is on a baseline level, RDM melee should be acceptable by the time you can even start considering making an Almace. Almace and CDC would therefore be boosts to an already-working playstyle. Almace right now is an on/off switch.

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Acceptable is subjective, and that's the point. Is Red Mage just not allowed to melee if they have total crap gear? By the game? No. By people? Yes. Why? Because people have standards. Those standards are put into place by said people. Almace does make Red Mage melee better, a lot better. And that happens to help bring it up from what people consider "Unacceptably bad" to "Acceptably good enough".

There is no game design fault here. People are simply considerably less inclined to give gimps free reign to do whatever the hell they want in a group and just assume that they're contributing what they need to contribute. If you came up to me in full teal and a joyeuse and told me you were a DD-only who refused to cast any magic spells because it would detract from your super freaking awesome savage blade damage, I'd tell you to get lost. If you came up to me rocking an Almace/Khanda or Almace/Fleuret combo with a capped Haste TP set and legit macros, and asked me if I wouldn't mind you melee'ing if you were capable of doing so while also performing and prioritizing the magical functions that I invited you for, more freaking power to you.

Your problem isn't game design, it's people and yourself. And as a member of the group "people", I feel absolutely no inclination towards letting you or anyone else do whatever the hell useless stuff you want while bumming rewards off of my group, my work, and my time. If you want to do whatever you want (be it melee or whatever, I don't even care), be good enough at it that you're not a total leech on me and everyone else with me. Because it's very possible within the game to do so.

all i read was : these are what we can offer you guys cause of ps2 limitations.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Yet, Great SMNs don't need to melee to still get the kills they need, and can solo harder stuff than Groundskeepers and such.

But that is besides the point....or is it?

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I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. So BLU being able to do their job from backline means only bad BLUs melee? In Abyssea a DNC can get regain and stand at backlines and heal... is this the superior way over melee for TP?

If you can do your role in melee range or back line, simply choose what you'd like. I do however suggest against melee range if you expect to die every 30 seconds. But that is a personal opinion of mine.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. So BLU being able to do their job from backline means only bad BLUs melee? In Abyssea a DNC can get regain and stand at backlines and heal... is this the superior way over melee for TP?

If you can do your role in melee range or back line, simply choose what you'd like. I do however suggest against melee range if you expect to die every 30 seconds. But that is a personal opinion of mine.

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Mala tbh the argument for SMNmelee, is the exact same as an argument for backline DNC. Trying to play a job in a role where it's weakest and wasn't built for in the first place. Although it is weird you never see a melee gear for backline and expect to be viable there.

Not saying mages shouldn't melee if they want when the situation allows. People with sense(like you seem to have) should be able to play the way they want, if it's not too determiental to the goal.

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Originally Posted by Razushu

Mala tbh the argument for SMNmelee, is the exact same as an argument for backline DNC or BLU. Trying to play a job in a role where it's weakest and wasn't built for in the first place. Although it is weird you never see a melee gear for backline and expect to be viable there.

Not saying mages shouldn't melee if they want when the situation allows. People with sense(like you seem to have) should be able to play the way they want, if it's not too determiental to the goal.

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Hold the phone. Backline BLU can, in some cases, be amazing. It actually cures FANTASTIC outside of abyssea, with the most MP efficient cure in the game. Well cures better than SMN RDM SCH anyway, if you're fully geared for cure.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

Hold the phone. Backline BLU can, in some cases, be amazing. It actually cures FANTASTIC outside of abyssea, with the most MP efficient cure in the game. Well cures better than SMN RDM SCH anyway, if you're fully geared for cure.

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My apologies. Statement revoked.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. So BLU being able to do their job from backline means only bad BLUs melee?

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Considering that you have to be at least 5 yards away from the mob for most physical damage spells to work, and the essence of being a melee is to be within range to swing a weapon, then yeah, being in the back means you are a bad melee, regardless of the job.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Considering that you have to be at least 5 yards away from the mob for most physical damage spells to work, and the essence of being a melee is to be within range to swing a weapon, then yeah, being in the back means you are a bad melee, regardless of the job.

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lol whiiiiiiiiiiiiiiite

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Originally Posted by Razushu

My apologies. Statement revoked.

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You'll find like 3 BLUs ever who actually gear for it, so it's really uncommon. But I thoroughly enjoy BLU curing outside abyssea, with proper refresh.
The set is very specific though, as it requires Add on hat and legs to be aug'd with cure potency to really shine.

Cannonball spamming blus weren't THAT rare were they?

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Originally Posted by Supersun

Cannonball spamming blus weren't THAT rare were they?

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Maybe on 75 content, and only a few mobs, but now? Not even thought of.