Job Adjustments manifesto Discussion

[Greatguardian]

If I can't do it naked, I can't do it at all.

Classic.

As an aside, you should level Paladin and frequent those forums too. Apparently, Ochain fixing everything that was wrong with shields doesn't count either because no one whining about it has the motivation to get off their lazy bloody ass and get one. Badelaire+2 is even easier, no excuses.

[Razushu]

Fix through gear, thus meaningless in terms of base design of the class. And why should we put up with Fast Blade (discount lolSavage Blade) as the only useful sword WS we get until we complete an empyrean at lv90? We're supposed to be proficient with swords and yet we miss out on the bread and butter WS in the leveling process.

As an all-rounder I wouldn't say you're meant to be "proficient" in any one aspect, more you're meant to be OK at everything, which is why you're left off the high tier WS.

[Sparthos]

More dodging of the point. RDM has access to CDC which is the same high tier WS being used by PLD and BLU.

Either you work towards it or you dont. Sword has always been a soso weapon type in terms of doing damage anyway.

[Supersun]

To be fair that was also in part because a few swords were stupidly powerful and giving them better WSs would have been a real quick way to break a couple of jobs.

[Duelle]

If I can't do it naked, I can't do it at all.

If you want the short version: Proper design has faculties that "are" when looking at the class at the baseline, and "get stronger" when you toss gear in. Things like Almace and CDC makes something that "isn't" into something that "is". I don't think I need to go into specifics, but suffice to say, a role or style of play that is not something you grow into (which is basically the larger issue with Red Mage melee) is an indicator of bad design. You want to play at the hybrid, you have to make the choices available. Almace should be something that makes RDM melee stronger, NOT something that takes it from lol to acceptable.

As an aside, you should level Paladin and frequent those forums too. Apparently, Ochain fixing everything that was wrong with shields doesn't count either because no one whining about it has the motivation to get off their lazy bloody ass and get one.

Considering that this is stuff that the player should grow into, I agree with that crowd. You're somehow thinking it is alright for gear to be on/off switches for gameplay, whereas I look at gear as something that should enhance and strengthen what's already there.

Besides, is it that damn difficult to fix shields to work properly?

[Korpg]

If you want the short version: Proper design has faculties that "are" when looking at the class at the baseline, and "get stronger" when you toss gear in. Things like Almace and CDC makes something that "isn't" into something that "is". I don't think I need to go into specifics, but suffice to say, a role or style of play that is not something you grow into (which is basically the larger issue with Red Mage melee) is an indicator of bad design. You want to play at the hybrid, you have to make the choices available. Almace should be something that makes RDM melee stronger, NOT something that takes it from lol to acceptable.

Somehow, I don't get you. You first say that it should make RDM melee stronger (it does) not making it acceptable....wait, what?

Nobody is going to mind you meleeing on trash mobs, even on seal mobs. Anything harder, you would have to justify the TP fed to the mob by the damage delt on CDC. Which you can, believe it or not.

Instead of being super negative about your job, why not strive to make it outstanding, which anyone can do inside Abyssea. Will you beat an Ukon WAR in terms of damage and tankability? No, but then again, you weren't supposed to either. Take what you got, and go with it.

Besides, Savage Blade isn't lol. Death Blossom isn't lol either. And that is a RDM only WS, incase you forgot or don't have.

Besides, is it that damn difficult to fix shields to work properly?

Wait, you want 100% block rate for all jobs who can equip a shield? Wouldn't that be broken and also make PLD worthless?

[Seriha]

CDC > Vorpal Blade > Death Blossom > Savage Blade > Fast Blade.

You can wiggle Sanguine Blade in above Savage at times, but the problem with the general chain of progression is that RDM lacks a native Vorpal (And Sanguine), DB requires 75+ and running a particular event, Savage is a quested WS, and Fast Blade of course being our first WS and basically the holdover until SB (We also miss out on RLB or Seraph Blade without a special sub).

These "mile stones" are like a series of steep climbs instead of a gradual progression. Yes, when you hit them, they may be effective to a degree, but the primary issue is the gap between the haves and have nots, and even the haves are scorned for reasons RDMs have been throwing at SE for years. I love how GG tried to slip in that cheap shot about how RDMs play is how SE has deemed to gear them because that's how we play, but as I've said before, that's a catch 22 or chicken and the egg scenario. The way RDMs play and have played is not a result of people choosing one style over another with all things equal. No, the deck has long since been stacked in the caster favor when it comes to gear, abilities, traits, the earlier mentioned restrictions in WS, and the general social need of support/curative jobs in an MMO with the gross misconception that early day WHMs couldn't do what RDM was. Add some nerfs to enmity generation, with Tranquil Heart on top of that, and even the tanking style got boned for reasons we're really not sure why, as far as RDMs go, at least.

Nobody's saying that RDMs shouldn't have gear to chase, but the lack of strong hybrid options effectively doubles the effort a RDM has to put forth if they truly wish to be versatile as a mage and melee. With the stigma against melee, when you see a RDM asking to do whatever to improve their martial prowess, it's not uncommon for people to not want to help if there's nothing in it for them (And I still say the best way for a RDM to get an Almace is to be a BLU, which is its own level of wrong). And while people love to hate on the Teal/Perle/Aurore sets, they put out a modestly acceptable baseline for people of their given jobs to start at and build upon if they hadn't been running the 75 treadmill to get the best of the best the old cap had to offer. When you compare the Haste/STR/DEX/ACC/ATK of Perle to just Turban/Dusk Gloves/Dusk Ledelsens, even though the latter is lower level gear, the gap is pretty huge. Even when you start throwing in more incrementally difficult pieces to acquire like Goliard Body or augmented pants (And before you guys rage, it's more about the inability to just buy at the AH), while Haste values may start closing in on each other, the other stats are still largely untouched. This, at present, eventually becomes the best RDM can get, with a CDC weapon being more of a must have instead of a finishing touch (You don't exactly see: "No Ukko's? No thanks!" when it comes to WARs, do you?). Meanwhile, all those "gimp" DDs using the mentioned sets have continued growth beyond that, some not even needing Empyrean weapons to spank a RDM.

We're well beyond the point of justification with the "Well, that's all they can do!" angle. We've seen SE throw out various abilities over the years with pros and cons. Something can be done while allaying the fears of the balancemongers, to satisfy all parties, but the fact even the more simplistic and reasonable requests have been paid no heed is perhaps the most infuriating part of this years long issue. I know it's easy for it to be a non-issue for some, or you get those who sit back smiling in spite over their perceived RDM's fall from grace because "they took their job" or "soloed something they shouldn't" in the past.

With the Jack angle being more of a player demand/sanity check, conceptually it falls flat when one side grows too strong over the other, broaching more into the territory of a specialist. While we're certainly curious about new enfeebles and improvements to current ones on top of that, such is a straying from the versatility that drew some to the job. Perhaps more cynically, if you're never asked to do something, it's not a job feature, and I've never in my 8 years of playing see a leader do a /sea all for a RDM to ask for a melee. Hell, I haven't, either, knowing the shortcomings. The relationship between RDMs and SCHs is particularly troublesome at the moment, as they're going to be very similar jobs at 99, many feeling SCH will be outright superior without things to make RDM stand out. Enfeebles could do that, yes, but some will be disappointed if improved swordplay is not on the table since it's something SCHs don't have.

[Duelle]

Somehow, I don't get you. You first say that it should make RDM melee stronger (it does) not making it acceptable....wait, what?

I get the feeling you're pretending to not understand me, but alright. What I'm getting at is on a baseline level, RDM melee should be acceptable by the time you can even start considering making an Almace. Almace and CDC would therefore be boosts to an already-working playstyle. Almace right now is an on/off switch.

Besides, Savage Blade isn't lol. Death Blossom isn't lol either. And that is a RDM only WS, incase you forgot or don't have.

Savage Blade is pretty lol, actually. Admittedly, not by design but more because of how people expect you to play in the front lines (AKA reach 100 TP and let loose, NOT get 300 TP and let loose which is what Savage Blade was designed for).

Wait, you want 100% block rate for all jobs who can equip a shield? Wouldn't that be broken and also make PLD worthless?

You're putting words in my mouth.

Either way, Shield design is pretty bad, since (and I mentioned this once somewhere around here) it is entirely reliant on block, shield size and little else. Generally (as in other games and even some past FFs), survivability increases just from equipping the shield alone before factoring blocks and everything else. A proper way to deal with things would be to go that route (by having the shield boost passive damage mitigation, some avoidance, maybe even some parry and have it scale with VIT or STR) and then buff PLD to be the job that gets the most out of that. Sure, you're also buffing anyone who has access to shields, but it also fixes something that doesn't work as it should. Kind of like defense rating.

[Dallas]

Ignore Korpg, Duelle. He is anti-melee SMN. Since no one has bothered figuring out how to make melee RDM stronger than melee SMN, he will spout random numbers forever.

If he mentions:
1) lack of accuracy
2) lack of attack
3) TP feed
4) WAR, Byakko's Axe, Ukon or otherwise

He's in blind rage mode. These are all arguments that someone else proposed and he has assimilated.

[Korpg]

Dallas, shush, the adults are talking now, go back to playing with your letter blocks like a good little kid.

I get the feeling you're pretending to not understand me, but alright. What I'm getting at is on a baseline level, RDM melee should be acceptable by the time you can even start considering making an Almace. Almace and CDC would therefore be boosts to an already-working playstyle. Almace right now is an on/off switch.
Savage Blade is pretty lol, actually. Admittedly, not by design but more because of how people expect you to play in the front lines (AKA reach 100 TP and let loose, NOT get 300 TP and let loose which is what Savage Blade was designed for).
You're putting words in my mouth.

I don't care if you want to melee, go ahead. You can make your RDM play the way you want, I'll do it with mine. I'm not putting words in your mouth, I'm just stating that neither Savage Blade nor Death Blossom is bad at all. If you think doing 2k damage on either one is bad, then that is you.

Either way, Shield design is pretty bad, since (and I mentioned this once somewhere around here) it is entirely reliant on block, shield size and little else. Generally (as in other games and even some past FFs), survivability increases just from equipping the shield alone before factoring blocks and everything else. A proper way to deal with things would be to go that route (by having the shield boost passive damage mitigation, some avoidance, maybe even some parry and have it scale with VIT or STR) and then buff PLD to be the job that gets the most out of that. Sure, you're also buffing anyone who has access to shields, but it also fixes something that doesn't work as it should. Kind of like defense rating.

If I understand you correctly, your main gripe isn't shield, but it is how Defense is figured in this game. Well, I can't help you there, maybe somebody else can talk to you about Defense and stuff like that.