So i leeched my job to 90 in abyssea

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Originally Posted by Tenshibaby

I'm 90 now so how do I play my job?


Sad state the game has sunken to.

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Please, this is nothing new. It was a constant in pre-TAU times even.

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Originally Posted by Rambus

keeps it the same? abyssea made more gimps now vs past -.- I gave some examples.

there are different levels of "gimp" being picky about someone's tp set =/= gear so horrid you cannot get the job done ( like my comment about 2 blm that was in one of my abyssea exp pt)

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I Don't know about you, But I'm thankful gimps today are at least in some small way better than gimps of yesteryear.

At least Full perle offers some minimum baseline of haste, as opposed to the GD Askar head-Wearing, Askar-hand-Wearing-etc gimps that they were before.

Abyssea did not create more gimps, You only see more gimps because instead of leveling with 6 people, You're leveling with 18, your forced interaction with morons has just tripled. as with obviously your "perceptions" on how many gimp people there are now.

The same goes for Endgame, IN Dynamis it was secluded, In Salvage? Secluded. So the only out-side interaction you got with non-LS was in King Camps, Where you saw your fair share of gimps. Abyssea is one big open event, You're bound to interact with more gimps than old-style events, cause old-style events were usually contained to LS's.

Theres no higher number of gimps than there used to be, we're just forced to interact with more of them while Exping or your daily activities. again, The amount of gimps are the same, You just notice/see more because of how the playstyle has changed, 18 man alliance-exp and non-Exclusive end-game zones.

simple, you need to cap 'em all. There are times you want Horde to be max radius, hope you have a harp. there are times you want a slightly higher chance of beating a resist, u want a horn. no matter what, you want capped singing since it works with both. 'nuff said.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

I Don't know about you, But I'm thankful gimps today are at least in some small way better than gimps of yesteryear.

At least Full perle offers some minimum baseline of haste, as opposed to the GD Askar head-Wearing, Askar-hand-Wearing-etc gimps that they were before.

Abyssea did not create more gimps, You only see more gimps because instead of leveling with 6 people, You're leveling with 18, your forced interaction with morons has just tripled. as with obviously your "perceptions" on how many gimp people there are now.

The same goes for Endgame, IN Dynamis it was secluded, In Salvage? Secluded. So the only out-side interaction you got with non-LS was in King Camps, Where you saw your fair share of gimps. Abyssea is one big open event, You're bound to interact with more gimps than old-style events, cause old-style events were usually contained to LS's.

Theres no higher number of gimps than there used to be, we're just forced to interact with more of them while Exping or your daily activities. again, The amount of gimps are the same, You just notice/see more because of how the playstyle has changed, 18 man alliance-exp and non-Exclusive end-game zones.

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what are you talking about? I do not care if people use Askar head or being picky on a tp set. (well I do kinda but I am talking about level of gimp lower then that) what I do care about is people being geared enough to get the job done. my abyssea party had 2 blms using mp gear and full time dark staff.

why? because its easy to leech and easy to get to 90 not learning your job. Then when you get a situation where people depend on you they fall short. gimps today are worse then the gimps last year, again this statment makes me feel you did not read what I have to say.

WHM using full NQ emp gear ( like your comment on cour gear that would been better) AND having NA say macros.
BLM not even having staffs, BLM not knowing how to play thier job, BLM not able to get azure kills because they fulltime darkstaff.

BLU that full time mage gear(teal) that melee.

a drk using level 10 scythe and mp/int gear.

WHM that melee in mage gear/crappy wand having 100 or less MP while having outside pt WHMs do his job.

PLD meleeing in exp with that acc down sword ( looks like chainsaw)

THF fulltiming haste gear ( ws in haste gear)
THF that fulltimes ws gear.

I have not seen people gear this horrible in the past.

and yes abyssea IS to blame. I talked to people before. some said "I am leveling this job just so i can have something to spend merits on, I know I am not good at it"

I talked to other BLM with not having staffs they answered was ill get them later or I was rushed here .

people get exp way too fast. you get too much exp while farming for gear. because of the fast exp while farming gear people level jobs for the sake of doing so to spend merits they get later while farming for gear.

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Originally Posted by Rambus

what are you talking about? I do not care if people use Askar head or being picky on a tp set. (well I do kinda but I am talking about level of gimp lower then that) what I do care about is people being geared enough to get the job done. my abyssea party had 2 blms using mp gear and full time dark staff.

why? because its easy to leech and easy to get to 90 not learning your job. Then when you get a situation where people depend on you they fall short. gimps today are worse then the gimps last year, again this statment makes me feel you did not read what I have to say.

WHM using full NQ emp gear ( like your comment on cour gear that would been better) AND having NA say macros.
BLM not even having staffs, BLM not knowing how to play thier job, BLM not able to get azure kills because they fulltime darkstaff.

BLU that full time mage gear(teal) that melee.

a drk using level 10 scythe and mp/int gear.

WHM that melee in mage gear/crappy wand having 100 or less MP while having outside pt WHMs do his job.

PLD meleeing in exp with that acc down sword ( looks like chainsaw)

THF fulltiming haste gear ( ws in haste gear)
THF that fulltimes ws gear.

I have not seen people gear this horrible in the past.

and yes abyssea IS to blame. I talked to people before. some said "I am leveling this job just so i can have something to spend merits on, I know I am not good at it"

I talked to other BLM with not having staffs they answered was ill get them later or I was rushed here .

people get exp way too fast. you get too much exp while farming for gear. because of the fast exp while farming gear people level jobs for the sake of doing so to spend merits they get later while farming for gear.

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You have very selective reading if you seriously took offense to anything i said.

People who leech their job to 90 Generally level a job because they're interested in it. Some people will Learn the job, Some won't. This hasn't changed because of Abyssea.

My point was, The only reason it appears like there are more gimps today, is because we are forced to interact with more people than we were pre-abyssea.

6 man parties are now 18 man.
Events are no longer "Secluded" (Reserved area, etc). They're open to anyone.
etc.

This is exactly what happened when Campaign came out. people were like "HUR HUR CAMPAIGN GIMPS EVERYWHERE EXP SO EASY HUR HUR". Every time time some new fad comes out that makes something a little easier, people will always try to blame it for the gimps in the game. It hasn't increased any gimps, Its simply increases our forced interaction with them. Campaign was another "Open" system anyone could join. so instead of being grounded by 18 LS mates you know, You're suruonded by 18 random people, Chances of gimps are higher.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

You have very selective reading if you seriously took offense to anything i said.

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I am not offended , i am glad there is cour gear.

I would be thankful if people used it right though ( like blu that gets more then one set)

I know there was gimps in the past, there is gimps now, i was just saying I am worse off with the gimps now then in the past because people a lot of times gear so horrid now they cannot get anything done.

the only time i was a bit picky on gearsets in the past was for nyzul, if you had a dark or blue that did not properly gear there was a good chance you would not make those 5 floors.

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Originally Posted by Rambus

I know there was gimps in the past, there is gimps now, i was just saying I am worse off with the gimps now then in the past because people a lot of times gear so horrid now they cannot get anything done.

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I have to disagree with this, as a matter of fact, I actually see less gimps now than I used to before Abyssea. Don't get me wrong, they still exist, and there's still plenty of them.

Though to be fair, one of the main reasons I see less of them now is because I have a group of friends I always (and exclusively) do stuff with, either that or I solo. I have little interaction with the majority of the gimps that have made the trek to level 90. I don't join any shout groups for NM's, events or even exp. My LS does weekly "leech" pt's on Sundays, and we simply rotate who is killing and who is leeching, and we only let LS members join.

Now, I'm well aware that this creates somewhat of a biased point of view, since I exclude the gimps and the idiots from my personal FFXI experience.

But this does bring up a separate point; if you, or anyone else, is having such a hard time with gimps, then why are you bothering to play with them? It's obviously possible, as I have done it, everyone else in my LS has done it, and I'm quite sure it would be folly to say that we're the only group who can accomplish such a feat. The answer is much more simple than most people make it out to be: stop partying with the people you don't want to. Make friends, join a group. Not only will your experience be much more fun, but you're much more likely to get a bunch more things done in a much more efficient manner (which in turn is likely to make the game more fun as well). If you think it'd be hard to get into a group, since these groups are likely to not joining shout group as well, it's not that hard to walk up to people you see successfully and skillfully killing an NM that your typical gimps can't and send a /tell. There's also countless LS's that have websites, and even forums that you could simply ask who might be someone to talk to.

Now that we've established that it's entirely possible to cut the gimps almost completely out of your personal gaming picture, the next point I want to mention is that if these gimps to get to 90 (99)... so what? While it can be annoying to see a group take 30 minutes to kill something as trivial as most of the Iron Giants, there's still very little direct interaction. They can quest away their seals for AF3+1, never attempt +2 for all I care, they're still (in general, though exceptions certainly do exist) better geared than they used to be. And they are able to get stuff done for themselves. While I consider myself a well above average player, I don't hold on to some sort of feeling that the lesser skilled deserve nothing. In fact, it's healthy for the game as a whole if they can do stuff, whether it's the simple NM's, leveling all jobs to 90, questing, attempting (and failing) at harder NM's, capping merits, shouting for mercs to beat Rani for them, whatever, if their interest is maintained in the game, it's likely to last longer. So let the gimps have their fun, and let them get far better gear than they used to be able to (admit it, despite the fact that full perle is lols, it's much better than the hodgepodge of shit we used to see). The more subscribers the better, and besides, they have zero impact on me, aside from occasionally making my group wait a bit longer to pop an NM, because that's the way I choose to play - without the gimps.

And this is not an argument supporting the tired old "it's their $12.95." I'm not at all arguing that they don't suck, because they do, I'm only saying that it only matters if you let it.

you leeched a job to 90? you FAIL

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Originally Posted by Fiarlia

I have to disagree with this, as a matter of fact, I actually see less gimps now than I used to before Abyssea. Don't get me wrong, they still exist, and there's still plenty of them.

Though to be fair, one of the main reasons I see less of them now is because I have a group of friends I always (and exclusively) do stuff with, either that or I solo. I have little interaction with the majority of the gimps that have made the trek to level 90. I don't join any shout groups for NM's, events or even exp. My LS does weekly "leech" pt's on Sundays, and we simply rotate who is killing and who is leeching, and we only let LS members join.

Now, I'm well aware that this creates somewhat of a biased point of view, since I exclude the gimps and the idiots from my personal FFXI experience.

But this does bring up a separate point; if you, or anyone else, is having such a hard time with gimps, then why are you bothering to play with them? It's obviously possible, as I have done it, everyone else in my LS has done it, and I'm quite sure it would be folly to say that we're the only group who can accomplish such a feat. The answer is much more simple than most people make it out to be: stop partying with the people you don't want to. Make friends, join a group. Not only will your experience be much more fun, but you're much more likely to get a bunch more things done in a much more efficient manner (which in turn is likely to make the game more fun as well). If you think it'd be hard to get into a group, since these groups are likely to not joining shout group as well, it's not that hard to walk up to people you see successfully and skillfully killing an NM that your typical gimps can't and send a /tell. There's also countless LS's that have websites, and even forums that you could simply ask who might be someone to talk to.

Now that we've established that it's entirely possible to cut the gimps almost completely out of your personal gaming picture, the next point I want to mention is that if these gimps to get to 90 (99)... so what? While it can be annoying to see a group take 30 minutes to kill something as trivial as most of the Iron Giants, there's still very little direct interaction. They can quest away their seals for AF3+1, never attempt +2 for all I care, they're still (in general, though exceptions certainly do exist) better geared than they used to be. And they are able to get stuff done for themselves. While I consider myself a well above average player, I don't hold on to some sort of feeling that the lesser skilled deserve nothing. In fact, it's healthy for the game as a whole if they can do stuff, whether it's the simple NM's, leveling all jobs to 90, questing, attempting (and failing) at harder NM's, capping merits, shouting for mercs to beat Rani for them, whatever, if their interest is maintained in the game, it's likely to last longer. So let the gimps have their fun, and let them get far better gear than they used to be able to (admit it, despite the fact that full perle is lols, it's much better than the hodgepodge of shit we used to see). The more subscribers the better, and besides, they have zero impact on me, aside from occasionally making my group wait a bit longer to pop an NM, because that's the way I choose to play - without the gimps.

And this is not an argument supporting the tired old "it's their $12.95." I'm not at all arguing that they don't suck, because they do, I'm only saying that it only matters if you let it.

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uh...

you said you only do things with friends and never observe shout groups or exp parties? I do not understand how you can say "gimps" are better now then they were when you don't really see them in action.

How is using 5/5 NQ emp gear good idea? it does nothing, lest the gimps in the past that where full af was more useful. Then add the na say macros.

People dont know that they need to use HQ staffs? they full time mp gear and dark staff? how is that better then the past?

How is MP gear PLD at 55 on his second job that abyssea whm to 90 first better then in the past? then claim they have no money to buy gear.

I am telling you I had 2 BLM in the same pt that could not do azure kills because they had NQ staffs and mp gear.

gear can be easy to get all you want but as game gets easier people get lazyer and never learn to use it

leeching a job to 90 is a shame on you, but I have seen my fair share of leechers and some do have decent gear when they hit the higher lvls. The only real thing that holds them back is the skills and exp with the job itself. As for any job I believe no matter what the skills in it they need to be capped because you never know what you are gonna need. As for the person who only parties with their LS mates then good for them, but I have to agree since this is only how you exp/farm/ upgrade gear you really dont have a say when it comes to leechers and gimps

Oh and PS getting all HQ staves is extremely expensive and not really necessary unless your main is SMN.

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Originally Posted by thelittlecrash

Oh and PS getting all HQ staves is extremely expensive and not really necessary unless your main is SMN.

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wahh?

1234567890

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Originally Posted by Rambus

uh...

you said you only do things with friends and never observe shout groups or exp parties? I do not understand how you can say "gimps" are better now then they were when you don't really see them in action.

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You're assuming that I have always only pt'd with my LS. You're also assuming that I can't (and don't) /check people. You're also assuming that I can't go look at forums that post pics of gimps for everyone to laugh at. Guess I'm going to be required to provide a little back story then. When Abyssea first came out, I was in a purely social shell, granted, we'd often do some stuff together but it was almost never planned, and certainly not executed in the best way possible. I did join shout groups for exp and NM's, especially when the second expansion came out, though I didn't play in shout groups exclusively. I'm well aware of the gimps, how they play and how common they are. So when the leader of my social shell quit and the shell went poof (more or less) I jumped in with a group of people from that shell that started their own. Now I only play with them (or go solo). And again, I frequently read threads on other forums (that allow the bashing of gimps) that talk about or even show screenshots of gimps. They haven't always been out of the picture for me, but now they are. And yes, whenever I walk by conflux 8 in Abyssea - Altepa I will /check people there because it almost always provides me with a laugh - especially when they wipe to Meltdown. When my group does have to wait for a group of gimps to finish fighting an NM so we can pop it I usually /check some of them (the ones with apparent bad visible gear). No, I'm certainly well aware of the gimps in the game. The reason I cut them out of the picture is because I'm well aware of them, how bad they are and how common they are. The problem is I also did shout groups before Abyssea for merits, and I can tell you I've seen plenty of them there, too.

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Originally Posted by Rambus

How is using 5/5 NQ emp gear good idea? it does nothing, lest the gimps in the past that where full af was more useful. Then add the na say macros.

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Anyone who uses say macros is stupid. Nationality has nothing to do with it. And no, NQ Emp gear isn't a good idea, neither is full AF or full Relic. But then again neither is far more than half the shit they used to wear. And if you're specifically talking about NQ gear, then we're speaking on a slightly different perspective of gimp. You are talking about the absolute bottom of the barrel players, and I don't think that the absolute bottom of the barrel players in the past would wear full AF, they'd likely wear something more akin to full Seer's or a Brigandine and a Fang Necklace, maybe with the level 14 NQ DEX rings, or the DEX rings with an Acc enchantment (which they would strangely never use), or even the level 1 starting rings with INT wands instead of Elemental Staves. I, on the other hand, have been talking more about the people who make at least a half-hearted attempt, though their selection makes it obvious they know next to nothing about game mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Rambus

People dont know that they need to use HQ staffs? they full time mp gear and dark staff? how is that better then the past?

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Actually that's the same as the past, go and peruse that BG thread that was linked earlier and I know you'll find examples of it. Abyssea has nothing to do with this mindset.

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Originally Posted by Rambus

How is MP gear PLD at 55 on his second job that abyssea whm to 90 first better then in the past? then claim they have no money to buy gear.

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Look at my above response, same stuff, just replace Abyssea leeching with level sync in East Ronfaure [S]. Or Bhaflau Thickets. Or Astral Burns.

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Originally Posted by Rambus

I am telling you I had 2 BLM in the same pt that could not do azure kills because they had NQ staffs and mp gear.

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So kick them? Or if you're not the pt leader drop and find another pt? This concept seems so hard for some people.

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Originally Posted by thelittlecrash

As for the person who only parties with their LS mates then good for them, but I have to agree since this is only how you exp/farm/ upgrade gear you really dont have a say when it comes to leechers and gimps

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See above, please. I chose to cut them out of my playing experience because they were there, and I didn't like playing with them.

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Originally Posted by thelittlecrash

Oh and PS getting all HQ staves is extremely expensive and not really necessary unless your main is SMN.

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Absolutely not, they are not expensive and benefit most other jobs more than SMN now (because of new gear with -perpetuation and Refresh, plus Auto-Refresh II). But meh, Magians trumps them anyway.

Also, both of you completely missed the other portion of my post, or ignored it completely. But, if you missed it, I'll repost for you. ^^

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Originally Posted by Fiarlia

Now that we've established that it's entirely possible to cut the gimps almost completely out of your personal gaming picture, the next point I want to mention is that if these gimps to get to 90 (99)... so what? While it can be annoying to see a group take 30 minutes to kill something as trivial as most of the Iron Giants, there's still very little direct interaction. And they are able to get stuff done for themselves. While I consider myself a well above average player, I don't hold on to some sort of feeling that the lesser skilled deserve nothing. In fact, it's healthy for the game as a whole if they can do stuff, whether it's the simple NM's, leveling all jobs to 90, questing, attempting (and failing) at harder NM's, capping merits, shouting for mercs to beat Rani for them, whatever, if their interest is maintained in the game, it's likely to last longer. So let the gimps have their fun, and let them get far better gear than they used to be able to (admit it, despite the fact that full perle is lols, it's much better than the hodgepodge of shit we used to see). The more subscribers the better, and besides, they have zero impact on me, aside from occasionally making my group wait a bit longer to pop an NM, because that's the way I choose to play - without the gimps

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Rather than bitching up a storm about gimps and/or Abyssea leeching... how about y'all just get over it? Really, this is quite a simple concept; if you don't like the gimps, and get very angry/annoyed/rageguy when you encounter them and group with them... stop? Get a small group of friends. It's really not hard, and it will not only make this a non-issue for you, but it will make the game infinitely more fun for you, I promise.

Double post, weeeeeeeeeeee. >.>

And to those who think getting a large group of friends is hard, it does not take a full alliance to do anything, especially exp in Abyssea (and I'm not even talking about Fell Cleave or Cataclysm burns), contrary to popular belief. The group I mentioned I play with, we do Abyssea exp pt's every Sunday. Guess how many people are actually killing the mobs. Three. Yep, three. Everyone else in the group is leeching, but since we're not gimps it's ok. We either have skilled the skills from a previous job, or will skill before we actively use those jobs. We make sure we get our spells before we use them. We usually have gear that we level into (quite often it's top notch stuff as we all know what jobs we plan on leveling so we start getting the gear beforehand), and if not, we wait to use the job until we do.

We leech, and we leech like crazy, but it's all within our own group.

Now... if Abyssea leeching was actually a problem, wouldn't this cause some problems? Seriously. If Abyssea leeching was really a problem, would someone who predominantly plays mage jobs be able to leech MNK, have good gear, get H2H skilled be able to act as our "main tank" on NM's, and do it incredibly well? Nope, but here's the kicker, people in my group have done it.

The problem is not Abyssea leeching, the problem is the people you encounter. Deal with it, because it's always been like that and will always be like that. And by deal with it I mean either stop bitching about leeching and start bitching about the gimps themselves, or stop playing with them and in turn stop bitching about leeching, or just suck it up and stop bitching about leeching and keep playing with them.

Whichever you choose, just stop bitching about Abyssea leeching because there's no point, and absolutely no ground for your argument to stand on.

Can a RDM90/WHM45 cast Haste? This is important guys. Some lolMNK I know keeps yelling at me demanding Haste, and I don't know what else to say. I keep pointing out that I'm not a WHM or a BRD but he just won't take the hint.

Also, why do mages want Refresh from me? I mean, they can sub RDM now for their own Refresh! Hell, they can even Convert for more MP. Why do these lazy mages bother me so?

iirc, whm gets haste at 40, so yeah.

RDM also natively gets Haste at 48, so I'm pretty sure that post was sarcastic... at least I hope it was.

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Originally Posted by Krystal

you leeched a job to 90? you FAIL

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My 90 leeched jobs are better than you will ever be.

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Originally Posted by RaenRyong

My 90 leeched jobs are better than you will ever be.

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how do you dislike a comment? i can't remember

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Originally Posted by RaenRyong

My 90 leeched jobs are better than you will ever be.

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My leeched jobs were better than he was by the time i hit 75.

When i leveled blm, once i hit 75 and was able to use all my gear, i parsed #1 in a party of level 85 dds.

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So kick them? Or if you're not the pt leader drop and find another pt? This concept seems so hard for some people.

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Was trying to, if my friend did not have so little time and if I didnt have to go sleep i would of job change for him. ( takes too long to job change)

If there was faster ways of job change I WOULD OF changed to blu to help him. (talking about helping my ls friend that was short on time)

there was no one around -.-

and we did not even have 18/18 at the time was more like 16 or 17

I do not care about BG thread or bottom of the ballel people as you put it ( I dislike the site because they banned me for telling people I did not merit stone)

I care about the frequency of running into them, and that number was increasing since ATU came out. ( I can into more in ATU era vs AB era but i herd some bad stories of how people played after being in AB.

Some of my stories of seeing people gear where not all directly effected me ( like that WHM) just something I saw walking around to kill NM in abyssea ( they had a different NM when i saw it).

That melee when I talked about I did get kicked, if he would melee and use temps to consistently keep mp up and try work something that would allow him to melee and do his job. I would not of kicked him.

I kicked him and send him tell, now will you listen? can you do a beter job to keep mp up if you are going to melee? outside pt are curing more then you.

He then went on talking about how his whm can outdd me and that he did not need the pt just wanted to skill up so I said I don’t need you and I got a rep already. (this is not the 5/5 NQ emp gear Na say macro whm, that was the guy I saw fighting some NM in abyssea with a group)

other people let people sit and afk leech because they are friend or something w/e. point is people accept gimp now because it is so easy to get exp it is like oh we have 1-5 gimps it dont matter we can still get exp anyway

abyssea pt is useally

5 people that do thier job

1 person in OMG gear ( emp user or emp ws weapon)

6 gimps

1 key leech

5 afk people

It is not like i can find a new party when this is the accepted norm so I do what i can to weed out the worst of the worst.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

The point at which the guy brought up Bards being gimp for fulltiming Marches really pretty much solidified for me that he's basically your stereotypical Pre-Abyssea Maat's Cap. Tons of jobs, doesn't know a damn thing about game mechanics or gear.

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So you say March x2 is the only song melees need and you say that I am the one who deosn't know a damn thing.... Spoken like a true Abyssea-leeched RDM.

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Originally Posted by Rambus

Leveling the old way does not atomically a better player so quit sounding like your views are based on that. Leeching a job does not atomically mean you will always suck at it.

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Atomic leveling ftw!

What many of you don't get is that you think there are 2 groups of players: those that leveled their jobs and took months and learned every step and knows the weaknesses and strengths, and therefore are clueless noobs because they were 75 when you were running around trying to find your way out of Windurst, and those who key-whored and spammed 1-2 spells in Abyssea, and are therefore more likely to be awesome.

Some veterans suck, and some leechers are good, but if you think that veterans are more likely to suck than leechers (when it is obvious many of you depend heavily on this) you are just hopeless.

So I don't know how Haste works because 1 of my 7 jobs was Abyssea leeched? LolOk. There are extremely rare situations where mixing a song with March would beat out double March, but it's so incredibly unlikely to come across something like this, especially at this stage in the game's life, that it's borderline ridiculous.

Going from 40% Haste (Gear + Haste spell) to 63% Haste (adds marches) is a 62% increase in attack speed, which increases both TP phase damage and WS frequency. What the hell other songs come even remotely close to a 60% increase in damage under normal circumstances?

Maybe it is different now; I am not sure and if someone is going to counter the statement I am going to make it better be done so with math/ parse.

march/march is only done if you need a tank to puch down recasts or something. you useally have a second support if you are doing march/march. ( I/E second bard to do attack songs or cor)

PLD and solo brd it is march/ ballad. (though this hardly exists anymore, still stating it though)

If there is only one bard ( no cor) you do march/ attack.

A range attack base damage would be attack/attack.

soooo...
To me the "norm" is having one bard do march/ attack. I think that is why he attacked you.

I attacked him because he and many other people think all jobs can be boiled down to a simple cycle and formula with no ideas of their own, no flexibility for different circumstances, no true awareness of the game to know when the circumstances ARE different, and no knowledge of their jobs to adapt or innovate.

If people think all their job consists of is doing 1 of 2-3 options, it's no wonder they get to 90 and think they're as good as the big boys.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rambus

Maybe it is different now, I am not sure and if someone is going to couter the statment I am going to make it better be done so with math/ prase.

march/march is only done if you need a tank to puch down recasts or something. you useally have a second support if you are doing march/march. ( I/E second bard to do attack songs or cor)

PLD and solo brd it is march/ ballad. (though this hardly exists anymore, still stating it though)

If there is only one bard ( no cor) you do march/ attack.

A range attack base damage would be attack/attack.

soooo...
To me the "norm" is having one bard do march/ attack. I think that is why he attacked you.

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You're asking me to reply with math when you're the one replying to my math without any.

Going from Gear+Haste to Gear+Haste+Marchx2 is a 62% increase in attack speed, which increases TP damage and WS damage (via WS frequency). I can't say it's exactly a 62% increase in total damage because that leaves out JA delay, but it would not be far off to say that, for the purposes of discussion, it is roughly a 60% increase in total damage dealt.

The absolute maximum you can get from any single minuet is +81 attack. On a DD/War with 700 Attack w/o Berserk, your average non-song'd Attack is going to be 805. Going from 805 average attack to 886 average attack is a 10% increase in attack plus a 27% increase in attack speed when you're using March 2 + Minuet 5. This doesn't come close to the 62% increase in attack speed you're getting by using double marches, and fails to take into account the decreasing returns and eventual cap on Attack (Putting it in your favor and still losing).

The more attack you have, the less each point of it is doing for you. The more Haste you have, the more each point of it is doing for you. Unless the DDs in question are complete and utter suck, not eating food, sitting with Attack Down debuffs fulltime; March+March will beat March+Minuet.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tenshibaby

I attacked him because he and many other people think all jobs can be boiled down to a simple cycle and formula with no ideas of their own, no flexibility for different circumstances, no true awareness of the game to know when the circumstances ARE different, and no knowledge of their jobs to adapt or innovate.

If people think all their job consists of is doing 1 of 2-3 options, it's no wonder they get to 90 and think they're as good as the big boys.

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Get over it. I know damn well how situational things are. Trying to create hopelessly unrealistic situations just to prove a point is doing nothing to help your cause. Marchx2 is going to be the best song combination in 99% of situations. Ragging on Bards who use it is just shortsighted.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

You're asking me to reply with math when you're the one replying to my math without any.

Going from Gear+Haste to Gear+Haste+Marchx2 is a 62% increase in attack speed, which increases TP damage and WS damage (via WS frequency). I can't say it's exactly a 62% increase in total damage because that leaves out JA delay, but it would not be far off to say that, for the purposes of discussion, it is roughly a 60% increase in total damage dealt.

The absolute maximum you can get from any single minuet is +81 attack. On a DD/War with 700 Attack w/o Berserk, your average non-song'd Attack is going to be 805. Going from 805 average attack to 886 average attack is a 10% increase in attack plus a 27% increase in attack speed when you're using March 2 + Minuet 5. This doesn't come close to the 62% increase in attack speed you're getting by using double marches, and fails to take into account the decreasing returns and eventual cap on Attack (Putting it in your favor and still losing).

The more attack you have, the less each point of it is doing for you. The more Haste you have, the more each point of it is doing for you. Unless the DDs in question are complete and utter suck, not eating food, sitting with Attack Down debuffs fulltime; March+March will beat March+Minuet.

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700 attack? no buffs? abyssea?

you forgot to include all jobs and if they are puching delay cap with march and haste.

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Originally Posted by Rambus

700 attack? no buffs? abyssea?

you forgot to include all jobs and if they are puching delay cap with march and haste.

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I have 700 attack without Buffs outside Abyssea on Mnk =/ What's your point? Is food somehow not standard any more? And the only job that can hit the delay cap without Haste Samba is Nin afaik, and any good Nin would be tweaking their gear to avoid Delay overflow under those buffs anyways.

Plus if you're going to move the discussion to outside Abyssea, you're going to be capping Attack on things a hell of a lot easier =/. How many NMs are there greater than level 90 now to even start accounting for Level Correction outside Abyssea? No more than a dozen, I'm sure.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

I have 700 attack without Buffs outside Abyssea on Mnk =/ What's your point? Is food somehow not standard any more? And the only job that can hit the delay cap without Haste Samba is Nin afaik, and any good Nin would be tweaking their gear to avoid Delay overflow under those buffs anyways.

Plus if you're going to move the discussion to outside Abyssea, you're going to be capping Attack on things a hell of a lot easier =/. How many NMs are there greater than level 90 now to even start accounting for Level Correction outside Abyssea? No more than a dozen, I'm sure.

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I will admit I am just here checking out on situations, i have no idea on 90 math esp inside abyssea. I do not really look at my screan. So i cannot say yeah my war has this attack for ws, mnk has that, job z had xxx str xxx attack.

I can say this though namas arrow needs huge amounts of attack. i ussed STR/ R attack atma, VV, R attack/ R acc atma

food still gave me more damage
berserk on top of that still gave me more damage
warcry on top of that gave me more damage

so where is this cap?????

when i was on war getting attack song I would pop a lot more 4k raging rush vs without ( useally only pop that with warcry)

and double haste assumes you are always on mobs, witch is more untrue then is

RNG is a different story. It should never get march outside of maybe 1-2 Situations, as they generally do NOTHING for Ranged Attacks in ANY WAY. If i remember Ranged attack is calculated completely different than Melee Attack. So you will be hard pressed to cap Ranged Attack without massive buffs. Melee-Damage is not the same.

As for your WAR, You're looking entirely too much on Spike E-PEEN DMG. Thats what terrible SAMs and DRKs who fulltime STR Gear do. Your WS may average lower, But you will attack significantly more, and in turn WS more than you would with a Minuet combo. In the end this will average March/March significantly higher than March/Minuet. or any other Minuet/based combo.

Double March is the correct for 99% of situations for any DD, Even Delay-overflow as specified for NINs/DNCs is moot, since any good one will have gear to accommodate this. Most. Not all.

Any BRD who only uses March falls into one of these categories:
1. A BRD who placates melees who don't know what they're talking about.
2. A BRD who is just lazy.
3. A BRD who leeched in Abyssea and came to a forum where someone else who doesn't know what they're talking about told them to use double March in all but the "hopelessly unrealistic" situations.

And FWIW, If your ATK is 700 and it goes up 70, that doesn't mean your damage output goes up 10%.

Ranger is a completely different beast and Ranged Attack/fStr2 does not work the same way as with melee DDs. March is, of course, also completely useless for a RNG so I'm not sure where they were brought into this at all.

Even if you're not capped on Attack, you are still experiencing decreasing returns when your attack level is high already. Haste has increasing returns. You may hit 4k RRs more often with Minuet 5, but you are doing less overall damage than you would if you had a second March.

Some people just look for easy trends to latch onto like the latest fad. "Stick with this until the crowd changes its mind". Spam ACC... no, wait, STR now! Wait, Haste!

I know RNG is different, who said i was only talking about RNG?

and like i said you have to assume fulltime on mobs witch may not be the case.

NMs you may have DD run in and out, EXP you can get TP in like 2 hits if you are lucky and WS killshot.

you are funnnuh if you think a lot of people compasate for cap delay overflow, most people don't even know about it

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tenshibaby

Any BRD who only uses March falls into one of these categories:
1. A BRD who Knows basic Math
2. A BRD who Understands the importance of Attack Speed, and its impact in WS frequency
3. A BRD who ls Intelligent enough to understand how in most situations, March is the best solution, as it will offer the most overall increase in DPS and Weaponskill Frequency, adding to higher over-all Melee proficiency and Damage output of respectable DD.

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I fixed that for you, I slip up all the time don't feel bad about it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tenshibaby

Any BRD who only uses March falls into one of these categories:
1. A BRD who placates melees who don't know what they're talking about.
2. A BRD who is just lazy.
3. A BRD who leeched in Abyssea and came to a forum where someone else who doesn't know what they're talking about told them to use double March in all but the "hopelessly unrealistic" situations.

And FWIW, If your ATK is 700 and it goes up 70, that doesn't mean your damage output goes up 10%.

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@Last line, no shit. It's just a look at relative increases.

Tell me then, in all seriousness, what monster would you be fighting now where you would use something that is not March+March? Seriously, all you're doing is throwing around insults screaming that "Shit is situational", which everyone with half a brain knows, but you won't bring up a SINGLE counterpoint.

Not one.

Not in this entire thread have you provided ONE counterpoint. ONE situation which would validate your claims.

What songs would you use over March+March, and where/when would you use them? Go.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tenshibaby

Some people just look for easy trends to latch onto like the latest fad. "Stick with this until the crowd changes its mind". Spam ACC... no, wait, STR now! Wait, Haste!

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Thats not a fad/trend*, Thats called evolving Playstyles and evolving intellect in the average player.

Accuracy has always been important, The reason its not Top-King today is because of Level-Correction and overwhelming skill levels. To the point where most jobs can afford to Full-on haste and still cap Accuracy.

I don't remember a time where STR was prefered over haste.

Haste has always been Important, If we had our knowledge of the games mechanics today, back in 2004, We'd all be still trying to fit on as much haste as possible while capping Accuracy.

As The players knowledge evolves, so does the best gear options. You can even look at the JP plastyle on BLU for example. The JP prefer to use M.ACC on BLU spells to proc Added-Effects, rather than go for raw damage. its a playstyle adapted by the Common person due to its proficiency. While NA generally prefer to Maximize Damage potential.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

What songs would you use over March+March, and where/when would you use them? Go.

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my sam/war. haste and attack plz

or attack attack if im suck outside aoe range XD

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rambus

my sam/war. haste and attack plz

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You're entitled to what you want, But it doesn't change that in plain math, That's an Obsoleted combo. March/March is going to give you Much more damage output, ESPECIALLY considering the Massive Attack boost Y/G/K Receive, making Attack next to useless on your Weaponskills.