Job Adjustments manifesto Discussion

That and they have the option of meleeing alongside their avatars when soloing. lolSMNmeleegear and combat skill is also a step above SCH.

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Originally Posted by Kyte

That and they have the option of meleeing alongside their avatars when soloing. lolSMNmeleegear and combat skill is also a step above SCH.

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They conveniently forget the multitude of melee buffs that SMN gets to choose from. They forget the 2hand bonus that puts SMN that far ahead of WHM or RDM to start, and the avatar that provides the best meat shield any melee mage could hope for (one that you'd sooner ditch than heal). Nope, SMN isn't supposed to touch melee...

Solo farming, SMN wipes the floor with most jobs. I'll admit though, only a half-dozen jobs appear to be up to the challenge. Haters gonna hate.

On topic, SMN appears to be going full-tilt MP drain. It will be fun to watch how many SMN scramble to find more mp.

EDIT: Flubbed the calculations, it's 405 accuracy on Smn with Hasso versus 397 on Rdm assuming full merits on both and Suppa/Composure on Rdm disregarding RR/cruor buffs, okay, I'll give you your +8 'miles ahead' accuracy.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

EDIT: Flubbed the calculations, it's 405 accuracy on Smn with Hasso versus 397 on Rdm asusming full merits on both and Suppa on Rdm, okay, I'll give you your +8 'miles ahead' accuracy.

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Don't bother. He's just trying to start more trouble here.

So we are arming the RDM to narrow the margin? We're also assuming that only the RDM would think of meleeing with the best melee atma? LOL. Consider this: RR helps out 2h weapons MORE than 1h weapons. Oh snap!

And then you got the "5x" guy himself telling you that it's not worth your time coming up with anything resembing honest posts. If we mashed all of you together, we'd have some sort of "super troll" that still couldn't lie well. Haters gonna hate, but they sure ain't gonna think.

All I read was WAR getting Sneak Attack, Dancer getting Assassin's Charge, and thief getting improved success rate on steal and despoil (which are already useless outside of dynamis currancy and brigandish blade).

Go go SE.

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Originally Posted by Karinya_of_Carbuncle

Healing is often a needed role in a group. Melee on the other hand... there's how many jobs that melee better than RDM *and* don't have the choice of doing anything else? Melee is basically never something a group needs more of, and if they did, they wouldn't look at a RDM for it even if it meleed better than BLU (which, unlike RDM, has an A sword skill, but would still be not that great a melee if it didn't spend MP on spells to add more damage). That's why it's important for RDM to have the option of nuking or healing decently, and not so important for us to have the option of melee (in group situations).

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You're trying to justify stuffing an archetype that generally has no business doing dedicated healing into the role of healer through demand. Not getting off to a good start, there, seeing that such a mindset is not too far from the asinine and old "you have an MP pool, so start healing".

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RDM melee is more of a solo/small group thing than something that should be attempted against VT and up, and it's pretty much always been that way for higher level RDM.

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Solo is meaningless in a game designed from the ground up on partying.

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I don't want to be "shackled" to healing, I want to have the OPTION of being an adequate healer if that is what the party/alliance needs. That's part of the versatility of RDM. Just like I want to have the option of nuking, or the option of enfeebling (on mobs that aren't immune). Enfeebling isn't very meaningful at the moment, but SE is showing some signs of wanting to improve that in future content.

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Just like you want the option of being an adequate healer, I want the option of being an adequate front-liner. We should be on the same side, instead of trying to downplay what we want to do in-game.

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A game with 20 jobs shouldn't have only 1 of them being capable of being a viable healer for a group. That's bad game design and is going to lead to either way too many people playing the same job and the others being neglected, a massive healer shortage, or both.

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Which isn't my problem, but more connected to how FF's job classes were conceived. Sure, someone was bound to get the short end of the stick, I simply expected it to be someone who had a history of being a caster and had no melee inclinations at all.

That aside, most of us know healing is not a popular role. It's no excuse for grabbing a popular class (like Red Mage) and stuffing it into healing to create a pool of healers. All that does is anger a bunch of people and create needless drama.

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P.S. Have you played any other FF games? RDM has never been more than second-rate, at best, at melee. For years, their signature ability has been to cast more spells faster than other mages, never anything melee-related. In FFV, for example, RDM doesn't have a single learnable ability that improves physical damage. The actual DD jobs are getting things like Dual Wield, Boost (the FFV versions of both of those are *much* stronger), Barrage (works a little differently but insanely strong), Jump for double damage usable every attack round, etc. There is no viable RDM melee build -- at most, you can give them a melee-supporting ability from some *other* job to give them something to do that doesn't cost MP. IIRC, pretty much the same is true in FFIII. I have no idea where people got the idea that RDM were ever supposed to have first-rate melee abilities. First-rate melee jobs don't have a B in their primary weapon.

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Some of us know certain concepts don't work in MMORPGs. The more MMOs you've played and the more design philosophies you've been exposed to, the easier it is to spot. RDM's core design from the console FFs is a prime example of this, because while game balance in the console games ignores min-maxing for the most part (barring bosses designed around min-maxing like the weapons in VII, Ovni in IX and Shinryuu where applicable), that same style will NOT fly in an MMORPG because of how encounter balance tends to go.

That being said, I've seen RDM's plight and issues in other games. For exactly the same reasons and with the exact same community reactions. In plain english, hybrids get screwed over more often than not, and few make the effort to actually make the hybrids viable in more than one role. The worst part is that said hybrids get stuck with mundane and boring tasks with sorry gimmicks to make them "needed" (like Refresh). I personally would not have an issue with any of this if the job had been called oracle, green mage or something that did NOT have a history of being a guy that knows magic and wields a sword. Being a magic swordsman whose only purpose in-game is to buff other players and spam cures is demeaning, to say the least. Try sticking a light-touched warrior archetype into the same situation and see the uproar and complaints. Trust me, it ain't pretty.

In my opinion, RDM is just an alternative to PLD. Not intended to deal massive damage, but do add some while they take hits. Of course SE's vision is different, in that all it supposedly does is debuff and buff.

I'm obviously biased, but I'd say I'm holding true to red mages of the past, while SE just want to explore new possibilities by experimenting.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

So we are arming the RDM to narrow the margin? We're also assuming that only the RDM would think of meleeing with the best melee atma? LOL. Consider this: RR helps out 2h weapons MORE than 1h weapons. Oh snap!

And then you got the "5x" guy himself telling you that it's not worth your time coming up with anything resembing honest posts. If we mashed all of you together, we'd have some sort of "super troll" that still couldn't lie well. Haters gonna hate, but they sure ain't gonna think.

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Do you just spout stuff with no idea what you're talking about? If either is going to melee I'd hope they're not stupid enough to melee in full Af/Emp/PDT atmas or something stupid like that so of course they're going to 'arm' themselves for melee... seriously just stop talking. As bad as it is Rdm still has better melee gear than Smn. Don't try and play the BP card or now you're assuming both are meleeing the same mob without being in the same pt (not that I'd pt with a melee smn in the first place inside abyssea because you're mostly useless, the Rdm too, but w/e).

Both can cap without issue on IT trash not Thf mobs (Even if the Rdm is meleeing in -8 accuracy), Anything more evasive both are either switching to pizza/sushi anyway/Rdm can use Dex Shamshir putting them within approx. ~5-10 of Smn's accuracy.

Just ignore Dallas, the guy still thinks he discovered Abyssea.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

They conveniently forget the multitude of melee buffs that SMN gets to choose from. They forget the 2hand bonus that puts SMN that far ahead of WHM or RDM to start, and the avatar that provides the best meat shield any melee mage could hope for (one that you'd sooner ditch than heal). Nope, SMN isn't supposed to touch melee...

Solo farming, SMN wipes the floor with most jobs. I'll admit though, only a half-dozen jobs appear to be up to the challenge. Haters gonna hate.

On topic, SMN appears to be going full-tilt MP drain. It will be fun to watch how many SMN scramble to find more mp.

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In this thread Ballad III+II and Refresh don't give back up to 18 MP/tick. Refresh II would make that 22. Evoker's Roll could make it 26. Auto-Refresh means 28. Gear means up to 33.

In this thread you can't sub RDM and use convert.

In this thread you can't even use elemental syphon.

In this thread MP is hard.

I'm glad SE is giving me the chance to let me think they are listening to my 2 cents about the jobs I love/play.
DRG
every jump should have its own timer. this will enhance drg DD capability and make the jumps more of a for front of the job.
Parry rate for lance should be higher
Wyvern
implement a slot system for wyvern like the one for pup's. I would love to armor up my little guy. using synergy to create armor with various color options to personalize our partners. give our wyvern 4-6 slots to add pieces that have benefits such as: add HP, add DEF, add double att, add magic def, enhance wyvern breath....etc

being that wyverns are flying creatures. I would like to see them stop taking damage from ground strike type aoe's. this also goes for drg's in mid highjump and soul jump

NIN
add a perfect parry stance
increase evasion for HNM's (bringing back nin tanks)
but i guess the real prob is magic absolutely rapes nin, so increased mag evasion or def wouldn't hurt
the nin 2hr should have been changed at day 1. how about making it where our shadows do dmg until they are struke down. and as long as our 2hr is active re-summoned shadows continue to do dmg.

SMN
an ability to shed hate to avatars
decreased BP timers is a must, but the penalty to giving up mp is bad. since the decrease in timer is a double edged sword. where we run out of mp even faster while we still struggle to decide which buffs the party need and be able to get in 1 damaging BP and keep party members buffed.
Pheonix would be a much better add than both atamos and catsith. with the ability to raise in an area effect not just party members. which would be awesome for besieged, campaigns..etc

Sch
give libra the ability to tell monsters weaknesses. make libra a shout instead of a say.
the storm effects should give auras that add increased att, increased def, double att.....etc. and if players are struke with an element spell or WS opposing there aura they take more dmg.

I stopped playing last year. But the idea SE might use some of our ideas had me reactivate my character just to post. So don't let me down SE!

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

Anything more evasive both are either switching to pizza/sushi anyway/Rdm can use Dex Shamshir putting them within approx. ~5-10 of Smn's accuracy.

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I was talking about naked RDM vs naked SMN because I was hoping you ignore me enough for me to get to smack you with this one twice.

...And then the SMN pulls out one of their many accuracy buffs and/or evasion debuffs... SNAP! 30-60 accuracy difference.

EDIT: the best melee mage was always SMN, then SE released BLU.

... Okay, so we can agree you're just retarded and don't read at all.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

EDIT: the best melee mage was always SMN, then SE released BLU.

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Blu doesn't count as it is a melee job with MP, such as pld. You're just cunfused because it has mage in the name. Besides, whm always had better melee dmg.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Sure, someone was bound to get the short end of the stick

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You think healing, enhancing, enfeebling, CC, and possibly also nuking are "the short end of the stick" and "demeaning, to say the least" and yet you expect to be taken seriously on how to design and balance a hybrid?

If you want a DD job, there are lots of them. Tons. Oodles. A glut, even. Go level one. Please. If you level BLU you can swing a sword and also do lots of damage. If you level DRK you can swing an even bigger sword and do damage with even less spellcasting. RDM doesn't need to be a clone of either of those jobs, and it doesn't need to be swinging a sword 100% or even a majority of the time, either.

RDM is not a magic swordsman. You know how I know that? I've played FFV. A game in which there is an actual magic swordsman job (it's even called "magic swordsman" in Japanese, IIRC). And also RDM. They play nothing alike. RDM is much more magic oriented. RDMs use a sword only when they have nothing better to do or want to avoid spending MP. Sword mages have enaspir, so running out of MP isn't that big a problem -- but they don't have ANY regular magic. So they can only usefully cast one spell at a time and then have to swing the sword to get that spell to do anything. (This takes a minimum of 2 turns, so pairing them with a time mage is highly recommended.)

I actually kind of wish that job existed in FFXI, but RDM isn't it and never will be (and can't be -- there's a reason magic swordsman has no other magic except through the equivalent of subjob). The weak enspells that exist in this game are nowhere near the power of real sword magic, but at the same time, RDM is nowhere near as sword-focused as FFV sword mages. Swords are an option, but not always the best option.

If magic swordsman did ever exist in this game, it would have an A in sword (or possibly greatsword) and enhancing and probably no other magic skills or spells except through SJ (and probably wouldn't sub mages much anyway, since it would actually be a melee job - NIN or DNC for 1h swords or SAM for 2h would probably be more useful). *That* job would belong on the front lines most of the time. RDM usually doesn't.

Your idea of what you want RDM to be is not what RDM is, ever has been (in this game or any of its predecessors), or most likely, ever will be. Please accept that and find a job more suited to what you want to do and stop trying to ruin a versatile magic-oriented (and endurance/control-oriented) hybrid job for people who enjoy playing it.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

EDIT: the best melee mage was always SMN, then SE released BLU.

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Hexa Strike, Reverant Mail, Seawolf Cudgel, and Sea Robber Cudgel want to have a word with you

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RDM doesn't need to be a clone of either of those jobs, and it doesn't need to be swinging a sword 100% or even a majority of the time, either.

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Yet it's okay to be a WHM clone? Prior to this manifesto, the following found here is the best we can assess of SE's early vision of RDM:

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Red Mage:
These fighter-mages can utilize both black and white magic, as well as the arts of the sword.

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Nothing about slapping a staff to your back and hanging in the rear. Yes, we know healers and/or support jobs are typically in short supply in any MMO because they're often unfun to play and the first criticized when things go wrong with a group. There's no mistaking players perverted the intent of Refresh and Convert, something that could initially keep a RDM from having to rest and losing TP, into brute force healing tactics. The above, considering how RDMs have been viewed for the better part of a decade, is rather bluntly inaccurate and borderline SE lying to people interested in the job.

Now, the recent vision blurb is just icing on that "SE doesn't have a clue!" cake. RDMs do not buff people to demi-god status. While they at least acknowledge the faults of enfeebling and hint it becoming a more prominent feature for the job, it's still not hard to remain skeptical. As is, current enfeebles certainly aren't needed for the EXP game, which is the best place a RDM could possibly draw a weapon. However, assuming you could get into a group NOT as a healer, you're on a job that, for a long time now, has been statistically deficient in native traits and equipment to the point this aspect of versatility is never a consideration when people are building parties. Rather simply, people would prefer to wait for an accepted DD class to show up LFG than gamble on a RDM, who according to every melee hater you'll ever talk to, owns absolutely no melee gear beyond the weapon.

When it comes to enfeebling, marrying it to melee is not outside the realm of possibility (See: Dancer). While I can't see this an approach SE is willing to take given the perpetual ignorance on the issue, it could be done, and people could like it if it's done right. Which is pretty much the problem. People hate RDM melee because SE didn't build them right.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

I was talking about naked RDM vs naked SMN because I was hoping you ignore me enough for me to get to smack you with this one twice.

...And then the SMN pulls out one of their many accuracy buffs and/or evasion debuffs... SNAP! 30-60 accuracy difference.

EDIT: the best melee mage was always SMN, then SE released BLU.

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I thought that you didn't want to go the "naked job" route?

Didn't Greatguardian already pointed out how weak of a melee SMN is compared to actual DD jobs, even when the melee SMN is geared fully and the DD is naked (only weapon)?

Besides, WHM and RDM are both much better melees than SMN, even before ToAU....

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Originally Posted by Karinya_of_Carbuncle

You think healing, enhancing, enfeebling, CC, and possibly also nuking are "the short end of the stick" and "demeaning, to say the least" and yet you expect to be taken seriously on how to design and balance a hybrid?

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When your class is sold as a hybrid, implying choice in roles and flexibility, and said hybrid turns out to be nothing more than a support bot and healer instead, it indeed is the short end of the stick. When you're told your class is part caster, part melee, and then you find yourself casting cures and buffs as they are the only thing of value in a party, that is indeed demeaning.

I would be fine if RDM A (geared and set up for melee) got to stand in the front and swing and RDM B (who enjoys a different playstyle and gears for it) gets to cast and support. I'd be ecstatic if RDM C, after getting the needed gear for it, got to tank. And even more if RDM D, with the proper subs and gear, got to focus on nuking (you know, like SCH gets to do should the player choose to). That's how you design a hybrid. Not with half-powered traits, next to no JAs, casting limitations to create busywork, the mother of all bad gimmicks to create a party slot for the class (refresh), and more than just a handful of oversights in design that go unfixed and uncorrected for the sake of passing them off as class "features" (genbu-soloing).

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If you want a DD job, there are lots of them.

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Turning your eyes away from the problem does not make the problem go away. Doesn't work in real life, and certainly doesn't work in-game.

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If you level BLU you can swing a sword and also do lots of damage.

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Monster magic and a scimitar don't equate to magic fencer. It was a poor attempt to fill the void without actually fixing the problem. Then it turned into its own thing, as we so clearly see now.

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If you level DRK you can swing an even bigger sword and do damage with even less spellcasting.

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DRK is a completely different beast and should not be part of this exchange of words. Hell, as a DRK main I'm a little offended to see it included in the context of Red Mage.

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RDM is not a magic swordsman. You know how I know that? I've played FFV. A game in which there is an actual magic swordsman job (it's even called "magic swordsman" in Japanese, IIRC).

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RDM is also not an enfeebler. I know that because FFTactics had a real enfeebler class that was called Oracle/Mystic/Ying Yang Mage. RDM is also not a buffer, because Tactics Advance 2 (and XII to an extent) had a buff-focused job called Green Mage. See where I'm going with this?

You're trying to argue semantics based on names rather than looking at the archetypes. The console FFs love filling themselves with classes based on other classes or splitting archetypes into pieces because console games can afford to do that sort of thing. This goes back to my "certain things that work in console FFs don't work in MMORPGs" bit.

Speaking of which, 魔法剣士, or Mystic Knight as we know it here, was basically a black mage replacement with a sword and a limited spell selection. Not exactly anywhere close to a flexible hybrid, rather a BLM without the cast times. It's already been used and debunked as part of the anti-melee camp's argument against the melee camp, so please let us not go down that route.

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I actually kind of wish that job existed in FFXI, but RDM isn't it and never will be (and can't be -- there's a reason magic swordsman has no other magic except through the equivalent of subjob). The weak enspells that exist in this game are nowhere near the power of real sword magic, but at the same time, RDM is nowhere near as sword-focused as FFV sword mages.

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We're not asking for the ability to cast Flare through a sword. I'm also aware of the damage V's version of Spellblade was capable of, and how that wouldn't fit into a hybrid's design without some toning down and limitations--which I am perfectly fine with.

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Your idea of what you want RDM to be is not what RDM is, ever has been (in this game or any of its predecessors), or most likely, ever will be. Please accept that and find a job more suited to what you want to do and stop trying to ruin a versatile magic-oriented (and endurance/control-oriented) hybrid job for people who enjoy playing it.

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Based on what evidence? Fighter and Black Mage weren't bitching at Red Mage for swinging his sword in FF1. Bartz the Red Mage wasn't getting kicked from the party for not spamming refresh and haste because he spent his attack turn swinging in FFV. Ingus the Red Mage was not getting grief from Luneth for not being a dedicated healer so that Refia and Arc could go Monk and Black Mage respectively in FFIII. And none were crying about how the Red Mages' melee hurt their exp/hour and fed the mob TP or some other asinine argument to stick them to the back.

You're fine with the way the class currently plays. I can respect that, but also keep in mind that you are basically dismissing the melee camp despite the fact we're also playing the same class. We could be mutually supportive, but respect and acceptance goes both ways. Stop by our boards and read some of the discussions. Some are livid to see White Mage and Bard match or out-perform us in melee. Others want melee buffs or utility tied to melee, and then you have crazies like me that would not mind a full redesign if it meant the melee camp and the backliners both got what they wanted out of the class.

Hybrid implies choice in terms of class design. The choice isn't there, and has not been there since CoP.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

I thought that you didn't want to go the "naked job" route?

Didn't Greatguardian already pointed out how weak of a melee SMN is compared to actual DD jobs, even when the melee SMN is geared fully and the DD is naked (only weapon)?

Besides, WHM and RDM are both much better melees than SMN, even before ToAU....

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What if the DD is a naked thf w/o a weapon doing H2H? lol

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Originally Posted by Tsukino_Kaji

What if the DD is a naked thf w/o a weapon doing H2H? lol

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Well, if you compare the damage output of a melee SMN decked out against a naked DD using their weakest weapon....yeah, I would say that the damage is about equal...

Have to ask the math wiz for that though.

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Originally Posted by Karinya_of_Carbuncle

RDM is not a magic swordsman. You know how I know that? I've played FFV.

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BLU is not a swordsman. You know how I know that? I’ve played FFVI.
SCH is not a manipulator of weather. You know how I know that? I’ve played FFIII.
DNC should be wielding carpets as weapons. You know how I know that? I’ve played FFT.

Oh, and RDM is a swordsman. You know how I know that? I’ve played FFI. I hit Fight a lot more in that game than I did the magic commands…

Seriously, wearing your experience with a previous FF installment like a badge and pretending it should be the canonical blueprint by which a job is FFXI should be designed is pointless. At best, it's an artificial way to turn your preference into an objective principle. It’s quite obvious that BLU, DNC, SCH and RDM have a combination of skills from previous FF games. The idea that one should be stressed over another simply because the job name matches another game is indefensible.

I don’t care about RDM melee. But I certainly wouldn’t be offended if SE buffed it. In fact, if you look at the ideas on the RDM melee threads, most people are suggesting a stance concept that allows RDM melee to be valuable while still allowing the option to play the job the way it currently functions. How is that ruinous?

The problem is SE already gave us a spell-casting swordsman. They already gave us a job that applies its melee buffs to other front-liners. They already gave us a way to self SC with a spell and WS. RDMs were asking for these things when the job was suddenly made party-friendly through the addition of a party-targetable spell that didn’t use any of RDM’s skills. But why give them to a job that everyone already leveled? It made a lot more sense to introduce magic-melee abilities to new jobs that would sell expansion packs and require years of monthly payments to fully develop.

I have a feeling SE is not basing RDM on FFV. I think they are basing it in part on ongoing subscriptions. This is why I expect the vision statement for RDM to be carried out over melee enhancements or anything that discourages leveling BLU, SCH, or any currently unpopular job that got abilities long-suggested for RDM.

And honestly I’m fine with it. If enfeebling becomes valuable on HNMs, I’ll be happy. If new party-target buffs are added, I’ll simply look at the rather well-designed RDM AF3 on my mannequin for the rest of my time here.

For the quick magic ability, I’ll suggest it be party-targetable. Give me a way to let a tank have 0 recast on shadows, let my WHM get R3 off instantly, etc. That could be fun. It would go a lot farther in the direction of turning my party members into demi-gods than Haste and Refresh II, and would certainly be a lot more interesting than another cycle spell.

Like the post above, SE is trying to do what they think the player base wants.

In case you haven't noticed 90% of what people say out loud is complaining in this world. So it's reasonable to say that you are only hearing complaining, but there is probably quite a large portion of people (More than will read this thread, or visit the forums) that are quite happy with the way RDM, DRK, and SMN are going, but they are content so why make a ruckus?

If FFXI Forums is TL;DR for you: There's a LOT more motivation to complain than there is to be grateful.

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Originally Posted by Merton9999

But why give them to a job that everyone already leveled? It made a lot more sense to introduce magic-melee abilities to new jobs that would sell expansion packs and require years of monthly payments to fully develop.

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If we were still in 2005, I would be inclined to agree with you.

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This is why I expect the vision statement for RDM to be carried out over melee enhancements or anything that discourages leveling BLU, SCH, or any currently unpopular job that got abilities long-suggested for RDM.

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This is a false assumption. Red Mage being melee-worthy won't discourage people from leveling Blue Mage or Scholar. Their giving those classes things that were suggested for Red Mage and said classes still being not very popular is a sign that maybe they should try working on Red Mage instead of wasting developer resources/time and annoying people in the same process.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

This is a false assumption. Red Mage being melee-worthy viable won't discourage people from leveling Blue Mage or Scholar. Their giving those classes things that were suggested for Red Mage and said classes still being not very popular is a sign that maybe they should try working on Red Mage instead of wasting developer resources/time and annoying people in the same process.

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To balance RDM:

get rid of spells

add in swift blade.

Now RDM can do what you want it to!

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In case you haven't noticed 90% of what people say out loud is complaining in this world. So it's reasonable to say that you are only hearing complaining, but there is probably quite a large portion of people (More than will read this thread, or visit the forums) that are quite happy with the way RDM, DRK, and SMN are going, but they are content so why make a ruckus?

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Bit of a catch 22. If a job is incapable of playing a way acceptable to the masses, and in turn people never try (or get to try) knowing that, then of course nobody will play that way (or get ridiculed to hell and back for trying). See the old days of lolDRG, lolPUP, etc.. Now, you don't see the sane RDMs asking to match a WAR as a physical DD. However, asking for viability given the job concept is a bit different than people suddenly trying to demand THF be a main healer with no native healing magics or other party friendly abilities to that effect. At present, RDMs are pretty much told to do it solo or on things that don't matter, which is basically the detractors saying your desires don't matter since once you hit 90 and start chasing endgame gear, such things "matter" to some degree.

So, really, if the job you care for is delegated to nothing more than glacier's pace solo play or tinkering in older content that's no challenge at present, I can't say it makes for the most enjoyable of MMO experiences. Either way, the DD rat race is something 19 jobs are gonna fall short on, and those 19 jobs deserve unique, meaningful, and themely aspects to have them around in any situation. Clinging to some semblance of history isn't a bad thing since it's ultimately what makes this a Final Fantasy game and not Generic Medieval Fantasy MMO #23473.

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Originally Posted by Seriha

However, asking for viability given the job concept is a bit different than people suddenly trying to demand THF be a main healer with no native healing magics or other party friendly abilities to that effect.

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Sorry, but I think this is funny how you mention this.

Asking a THF to main heal is just about the same as asking a SMN to main heal. Both have no native healing magics (BP:Ws don't count) but they are asked to do so just the same.

a THF/DNC mainheal is just as viable as a SMN/WHM main heal, just saying.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

Hexa Strike, Reverant Mail, Seawolf Cudgel, and Sea Robber Cudgel want to have a word with you

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WHM is a significantly stronger melee than SMN. But it's fairly obvious he's just trolling this thread by comparing SMN+Avatar to mages who don't cast spells.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

This is a false assumption. Red Mage being melee-worthy won't discourage people from leveling Blue Mage or Scholar. Their giving those classes things that were suggested for Red Mage and said classes still being not very popular is a sign that maybe they should try working on Red Mage instead of wasting developer resources/time and annoying people in the same process.

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It's false for you but fits my personal experience exactly. And at best I think you've pointed out a correlation here, but the causation side would be an endless abyss of debate I won't continue. I can only say what I've experienced. The only reason I bothered with BLU and DNC is because they played like I always hoped RDM would. I lost count how many times I've heard "I love BLU! It's what RDM should have been!" and "I love DNC! It's would RDM should have been!" Anecdotal of course, but it's my experience. If RDM became a valuable melee job, I'd love it. And I'd drop BLU and DNC forever. Dang, maybe I should fight for this - I need a 9 month hiatus.

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Originally Posted by Merton9999

It's false for you but fits my personal experience exactly. And at best I think you've pointed out a correlation here, but the causation side would be an endless abyss of debate I won't continue. I can only say what I've experienced. The only reason I bothered with BLU and DNC is because they played like I always hoped RDM would. I lost count how many times I've heard "I love BLU! It's what RDM should have been!" and "I love DNC! It's would RDM should have been!" Anecdotal of course, but it's my experience. If RDM became a valuable melee job, I'd love it. And I'd drop BLU and DNC forever. Dang, maybe I should fight for this - I need a 9 month hiatus.

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What is keeping you from making your RDM into being a great melee?

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Originally Posted by Merton9999

It's false for you but fits my personal experience exactly. And at best I think you've pointed out a correlation here, but the causation side would be an endless abyss of debate I won't continue. I can only say what I've experienced.

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Fair enough. The reason I see your statement as such is because I file it in the same category as the "if X class is viable in Y role, everyone will play that and play nothing else" argument, which has been debunked several times over.

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The only reason I bothered with BLU and DNC is because they played like I always hoped RDM would. I lost count how many times I've heard "I love BLU! It's what RDM should have been!" and "I love DNC! It's would RDM should have been!" Anecdotal of course, but it's my experience. If RDM became a valuable melee job, I'd love it. And I'd drop BLU and DNC forever.

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And just like you would drop DNC and BLU, there'll be people who just stick to those jobs because they like them (remember that BLU in particular was the most requested job pre-TAU) or the styles of the jobs have grown on them. As has always been said, people will play what they like.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

What is keeping you from making your RDM into being a great melee?

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Being forced to still wear lvl 75 armor for 90% of my gear?

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

Hexa Strike, Reverant Mail, Seawolf Cudgel, and Sea Robber Cudgel want to have a word with you

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What do they have to say? "Hi, we are under the delusion that 15 attack and/or accuracy or so makes up for half the base DPS?" At least you lose big.

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Originally Posted by Supersun

Being forced to still wear lvl 75 armor for 90% of my gear?

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So?

Waste of text

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Originally Posted by Dallas

What do they have to say? "Hi, we are under the delusion that 15 attack and/or accuracy or so makes up for half the base DPS?" At least you lose big.

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Apparently Dallas hasn't seen a 2k Hexa Strike from a level 75 WHM when the cap was still at 75....

Heck, I seen 5k Hexa Strikes in Abyssea, since Dallas likes to compare damage in that content only.

Lets not forget that WHMs get 100% TP a lot faster than a SMN can, unless that SMN can, of course, pop a wing.

Ehh...

I'm not saying Smn melee is anything special, but being able to /sam does give you a big advantage in this case.

Certainly not enough to beat whm since all the smns WS are garbage, but still, unless the whm is using a K club I wouldn't say that the Whm gets TP a whole lot faster.

Unless Smn gear is worse then I think it is.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Supersun

Ehh...

I'm not saying Smn melee is anything special, but being able to /sam does give you a big advantage in this case.

Certainly not enough to beat whm since all the smns WS are garbage, but still, unless the whm is using a K club I wouldn't say that the Whm gets TP a whole lot faster.

Unless Smn gear is worse then I think it is.

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Oh, its horrible.

You have 3 choices in gearing: Haste only, Accuracy only, or Perp only.

Most SMNs know that their safest damage output (for both the SMN and the whole party) is avatar damage only. Meaning that the BPs and generally having the avatar do the meleeing for the SMN.

Then you got Dallas, the only SMN here who thinks that 75% accuracy rate is ok and should gear for haste only. He spouts a 22% haste but only 14 Acc with his gear set. Inside Abyssea he might get 85% accuracy on trash mobs, 80% on trash NMs, and 75% on any NM worthwhile. Outside, he is just swinging faster.

Then you got the few melee SMNs who know that TP gain means actually hitting the mob, and know how important accuracy is for anything big. They lose out on a lot of haste, but can actually get TP faster without atma help. Inside abyssea they can continue to use Spirit Taker and recover just as much MP as a 300% Myrkr. But actually DD and their WSs actually do damage against the mob, which allows them to be more useful to the party. But then again, lolmelee.

Perp gear SMNs are mainly those who are able to solo hard stuff without risk to the summoner. They are generally oldschool players who solo'd SMN from 1 to 75 and know the pain it was to level the job on bombs and gobbies. They are the true players, but occasionally melee on trash mobs because, well, who cares?

SMN gear is horrible for melee. Best that SMNs can get is either 22% haste or ~40 accuracy. Nothing to melee on Orthus with.

To be fair though...

as long as he's eating sushi I'd imagine he would be fine. I mean by 99 with how high our combat skills are going to get I wouldn't be surprised if any job even naked could auto cap accuracy using sushi unless all sushi's actually have a cap that we don't know about (we know the cap for a lot of them though).

From there it's mainly a matter of attack I would assume since he would have to down grade from pizza to do so. Normally I would say it isn't worth it, but I'd imagine that Smns attack is pretty crappy in the first place so adding whatever +% the pizza adds isn't really going to help.

The idiots burned through a thousand posts without naming a single relevant mob that SMN couldn't cap accuracy on, without sushi. They have resurrected the lie here with the random number "75%." Good for them. It's time for them to shave their heads and make a religion out of it.

Let's let this thread die too.