Do Relic, Mythic, and Empyrean staves lack utility?

Why haven't you just put him on your ignore list already?

Dallas? Cause he is entertaining!!!

No one is more delusional than Dallas, not even Cream Soda and his superiority complex.

I know this was way back

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I mean, I get the whole "YouTube"esque "We'll have takedown policies, but it's your responsibility to report abuse" method of increasing site traffic. It's kind of a pain though, and you guys aren't working on FFXIclopedia anymore so you could probably start legitimately questioning where the information comes from.

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It's true, I probably can, but there are problems with just reverting edits and banning people left and right for this.

I have to act carefully because I don't want Wikia itself to get the idea that its administrators are trashing the wiki to get people to leave. Which, I want people to switch, but I also don't want to use destructive measures to do so, which is something that makes us better than other groups that have left Wikia, such as WoWwiki.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

SE created Maat's Cap when a couple guys who were bored decided to level all jobs. All that storage space? Also unintended. SE intended for people to switch characters. BG insisted that people level the bandwagon job of the month.

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Rather than "BG insisted," I'm sure people played the bandwagon job of the month because it was miles ahead of everyone else (see: Polearm SAM at birds, or just SAM in general). Players generally tend to flock to the stronger jobs, because they are stronger.

It's like saying in real life: Well I have this Porsche, but it's not fully ready to be driven yet. Then I have this Geo Metro that's ready to go, would you rather:
A: Get the Porsche up to speed, or
B: Drive around in a Geo Metro?

In this post: Porsches are bandwagon

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

You're oblivious. You don't deal 4 times the damage of a BP/release Summoner ever. You don't deal 2.5x the damage of a BP/release Summoner unless you're rocking Haste Samba, dual Marches, Haste, and Red Curry buns.

You don't even eat food, as far as I can tell from your posts. The damage you, personally, add is laughable.

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BP/release SMN gets no benefit from Haste and approximately a quarter the avatar melee since they are busy aligning their Wards and Rages. Melee SMN is well over 50% of the damage unbuffed. Of course, you have to take my word on that. Crits + Aftermath = 900 damage. Avatar crits = 200 damage. More haste, better gear. I've taken melee SMN so far, I've established it can't be min/maxed without fixing avatar hate.

I only humor your calculations because it's easier to manipulate BG than fix BG. In order to address a real situation, you have to add in that 90% of the playerbase is NOT a Ukon WAR. I have unlimited mp, I cure, I buff, I proc, and deal more damage than any pickup DD. You don't care about these people, but they exist by the thousands.

What SMN does better than ANY other job is switch roles at the drop of a hat. If you don't know what you need, or think you could use everything just to be safe, a SMN will fill the role better than any other job.

Some 10 random perks of SMN that you will never see in your calculations:
1) SMN can never be slept if it leaves avatars out: Sacrifice torque (with the exception of the Diabolos fight)
2) SMN with Myrkr cannot be silenced.
3) SMN damage/heals/buffs is immune to silence anyway. It can easily be ignored.
4) SMN tanking does not use shadows. Ducal Guard plug here.
5) BP/release SMN can step out of range of Amnesia. Melee SMN can keep doing what it was doing.
6) Each avatar is nearly immune to one status effect and is likewise highly resistant to that element.
7) SMN has all 8 elements in spiked damage as well as physical. The avatar strong to an element defensively is also strong offensively.
8) Melee SMN hate is split between a pet and the SMN. It's easy to keep hate under that of an evasion tank. My melee SMN runs around in -38% enmity just because I've broken the job. That sacrifices almost no melee potential.
9) A trick for the cool SMN: SMN is the only job that can cure itself of petrification. I've successfully done it a dozen times meleeing Kukulkan.
10) Avatars are unaffected by weakness. SMN is the job to save a pt.

The benefit of having ME around can't be measured with a number.

Naw. But I can qualify it as less than the benefit a group would get having me around. On any job.

You'd just have to take my word on that :)

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Some 10 random perks of SMN that you will never see in your calculations:
1) SMN can never be slept if it leaves avatars out: Sacrifice torque (with the exception of the Diabolos fight)
2) SMN with Myrkr cannot be silenced.
3) SMN damage/heals/buffs is immune to silence anyway. It can easily be ignored.
4) SMN tanking does not use shadows. Ducal Guard plug here.
5) BP/release SMN can step out of range of Amnesia. Melee SMN can keep doing what it was doing.
6) Each avatar is nearly immune to one status effect and is likewise highly resistant to that element.
7) SMN has all 8 elements in spiked damage as well as physical. The avatar strong to an element defensively is also strong offensively.
8) Melee SMN hate is split between a pet and the SMN. It's easy to keep hate under that of an evasion tank. My melee SMN runs around in -38% enmity just because I've broken the job. That sacrifices almost no melee potential.
9) A trick for the cool SMN: SMN is the only job that can cure itself of petrification. I've successfully done it a dozen times meleeing Kukulkan.
10) Avatars are unaffected by weakness. SMN is the job to save a pt.

The benefit of having ME around can't be measured with a number.

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1. Frenzy Sallet and Berserker's Torque say hi.
2. It's only better than Echo Drops if you're paralyzed and Echo Drops don't require TP.
3. What was the point of saying point 2 then?
4. If you have a decent healer most jobs don't require shadows either, in Abyssea.
5. How does a melee SMN getting hit by Amnesia benefit them?
6. Yes, nobody is arguing that SMN isn't situationally a good choice.
7. This can be clumped together with 6.
8. What's your point? Nobody is worried about a melee SMN taking hate off of a tank.
9. That's why we have WHMs, RDMs, BRDs, etc. Kukulkan's Petrification counts down from 20, which is why you have time to prepare for it.
10. Nobody is saying SMNs aren't nice to hold mobs, in the event of a wipe, or the tank/s going down.

The benefit of not having a moron around can't be quantified either since it varies person-to-person.

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2. It's only better than Echo Drops if you're paralyzed and Echo Drops don't require TP.

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I agree, but most people can't remove their own silence lacking echo drops. Yes, everyone should have them, though sometimes you run out. Also, it removes more than para and silence- Myrkr allows summoner to retain a little of its independence whilst subbing some other job that it doesn't usually sub (SMNs often sub WHM not because they love being looked at as healers, but because it's the most functional subjob- Yes, you can heal people with it, but the biggest thing about it is it means you can remove certain status effects from yourself and not rely on others to do it for you.) It's a minor bonus but it's basically icing on a cake, and it's something unique in weapon skills- There are other WS that gain you MP and HP, but no WS that heal status effects (unless I'm crazy and deluded and forgot about something somewhere)

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Originally Posted by Azagthoth

Nobody is saying SMNs aren't nice to [action]

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They have been saying for 1000 posts that there's no reason to have a SMN for [action] when everyone should have [bandwagon job].

Wonder if Dallas is on Lakshmi cause id formally invite him to Voidwatch as a melee SMN to go up against the LS BP/release SMNs.

Could parse out the whole thing.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

They have been saying for 1000 posts that there's no reason to have a SMN for [action] when everyone should have [bandwagon job].

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There are reasons to have them, but they don't justify actually inviting a SMN, at least not in Abyssea.

It's not my fault people disagree with you.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

It's not my fault people disagree with you.

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This, I'm afraid, I cannot translate. Therefor all I can say is:

wut

Read posts made by other people. You will quickly discover there are other people.

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

Wonder if Dallas is on Lakshmi cause id formally invite him to Voidwatch as a melee SMN to go up against the LS BP/release SMNs.

Could parse out the whole thing.

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Naturally you pick your targets. I wouldn't go near any of the silly monsters that have the gimmick "I toss AOE, therefore I am". And as you probably know, neither does other jobs. It is always "Keep 1-2 tanks on it, and whatever trigger job is for HQ". So Summoner would parse just about equal to the other jobs like WAR on voidwatch, due to them not actually engaging either. But a RNG or SMN with BP+release would parse really high.

That's the whole point. If WAR can't do it, it's proof that SMN shouldn't melee. ;)

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

Naturally you pick your targets. I wouldn't go near any of the silly monsters that have the gimmick "I toss AOE, therefore I am". And as you probably know, neither does other jobs. It is always "Keep 1-2 tanks on it, and whatever trigger job is for HQ". So Summoner would parse just about equal to the other jobs like WAR on voidwatch, due to them not actually engaging either. But a RNG or SMN with BP+release would parse really high.

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It wouldn't even need to be a T4. A T3 like the Turtle, Behemoth, Tonberry would be enough to prove my point.

Either way, without a doubt I know his ego is writing checks his body can't cash. The second he isn't supported by cruor buffs he's going underwater like all the other wannabe melee like BRD WHM RDM.

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The second he isn't supported by cruor buffs he's going underwater like all the other wannabe melee like BRD WHM RDM.

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Whoever you're comparing to doesn't have the cruor buffs either, so the balance remains the same. It's not going to be any better or worse. In fact, non-abyssea favors the summoner more because Staff has no crit WS anyway and crit WS are laregly responsible for other job's drastic power increase. It does help garuda, some yes, but the master's share of the damage is already higher, so it doesn't make much of a difference, especially considering the BP timer.

Summoner still gets its butt kicked, of course. Just don't kid yourself into thinking that Abyssea is helping summoner disproportionately, it's actually helping them less than other jobs.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

In fact, non-abyssea favors the summoner more because Staff has no crit WS anyway and crit WS are laregly responsible for other job's drastic power increase.

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Actually, SMN would be weaker because they lose the large DEX boost from buffs and RR.

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Originally Posted by dallas

That's the whole point. If WAR can't do it, it's proof that SMN shouldn't melee.

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You don't get a cookie for being the slowest kid in the class. Post #32:

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Originally Posted by Byrth

fights that require hateless damage sources at range generally don't want a Summoner meleeing.

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Goes hand in hand with reading posts by other people. You'll quickly find there are other people who dismantled all your made up arguments long before you posted them.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Actually, SMN would be weaker because they lose the large DEX boost from buffs and RR.

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Everyone else loses the dex boost from buffs and RR too.

You lose the abyssea buffs, but so does anyone else.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Everyone else loses the dex boost from buffs and RR too.

You lose the abyssea buffs, but so does anyone else.

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yeah, but other jobs don't need the accuracy from DEX like SMN does. WAR still has capped accuracy pretty much everywhere (excluding select voidwatch fights) without food, no way in hell SMN can do that.

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Originally Posted by TybudX

Goes hand in hand with reading posts by other people. You'll quickly find there are other people who dismantled all your made up arguments long before you posted them.

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LOL, no concept of mockery I see. Reeling it in! Thanks! Now, please estimate the percentage of time a Ukon WAR is playing a "competent job" because WAR is useless.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

yeah, but other jobs don't need the accuracy from DEX like SMN does. WAR still has capped accuracy pretty much everywhere (excluding select voidwatch fights) without food, no way in hell SMN can do that.

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And yet Myrkr still happens. Why is that?

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Originally Posted by dallas

Now, please estimate the percentage of time a Ukon WAR is playing a "competent job" because WAR is useless.

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It's already been explained in this very thread that SMN is a terrible melee job, has useless/crappy buffs outside EA/PD, and is nothing special as a /whm or /rdm healer. So WAR is useless because there are a (very) few fights in the game where ranged damage is better? *cough*BLM*cough*RDM*cough*RNG*cough*COR*cough*SCH*cough*lolPUP*cough*
SAM*cough*... oh, wait, you guys are as good as BST. Good job, again.

Am I to assume that your only job is SMN? It seems to be very important to your argument that somebody might ever have to change jobs. It has to be, seeing as you refuse to switch to a better suited job for what? 98% of the games content? Hope you are proud of that last 2% bro, you're really rocking this argument.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

And yet Myrkr still happens. Why is that?

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Yeah, a WS exists, so what?

Wiffing a third of the time instead of a fifth of the time now? You think that is an improvement?

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Originally Posted by TybudX

It's already been explained in this very thread that SMN is a terrible melee job, has useless/crappy buffs outside EA/PD, and is nothing special as a /whm or /rdm healer. So WAR is useless because there are a (very) few fights in the game where ranged damage is better?

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Psst, I'm mocking you. Congratulations, you pwn PvE with lots of help!

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Yeah, a WS exists, so what?

Wiffing a third of the time instead of a fifth of the time now? You think that is an improvement?

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Don't you wish you were alive in 2006? Those guys strutted around thinking SMN missed 80% of the time.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

yeah, but other jobs don't need the accuracy from DEX like SMN does. WAR still has capped accuracy pretty much everywhere (excluding select voidwatch fights) without food, no way in hell SMN can do that.

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I wear more accuracy gear on my SMN than on my DNC. But I do admit that DNC is like B+ when SMN is a terrible B.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Everyone else loses the dex boost from buffs and RR too.

You lose the abyssea buffs, but so does anyone else.

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The DD isn't relying as much on the cruor/atmas than the mage job attempting to melee.

For fun, what does your melee gear look like? How much ATT and ACC are you using in gear before atma/cruor?

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Psst, I'm mocking you. Congratulations, you pwn PvE with lots of help!



Don't you wish you were alive in 2006? Those guys strutted around thinking SMN missed 80% of the time.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdLJf...eature=related

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

I wear more accuracy gear on my SMN than on my DNC. But I do admit that DNC is like B+ when SMN is a terrible B.

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DNC also get Accuracy Bonus III, so that's another 35 Acc difference. SMN uses a 2H weapon though, so they get 25% DEX in their favor.

If I were to argue against the feasibility of melee summoner, Accuracy would not be my argument of choice. pDIF would be. It is so beneficial to Myrkr Summoner to keep capped Accuracy that it's entirely worth using Sushi to do it, which means they can realistically cap Acc on all but Thief monsters with proper gear, merits, and Sushi.

By the time your Acc uncaps with Sushi and proper gear, your pDIF will be so horrid that the shit damage/hit you're doing isn't worth the TP/hit you're feeding. Your Avatars have a lot of Attack, but they attack slowly and their base damage depends on fSTR. If you're meleeing and feeding TP just so you can keep your Avatar out (instead of doing BP and release) and it can also feed TP while contributing a mediocre amount of damage, then perhaps you should consider releasing and just contributing by feeding less TP and staying out of AoE range. Sometimes being less active is more helpful than being more active.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

DNC also get Accuracy Bonus III, so that's another 35 Acc difference. SMN uses a 2H weapon though, so they get 25% DEX in their favor.

If I were to argue against the feasibility of melee summoner, Accuracy would not be my argument of choice. pDIF would be. It is so beneficial to Myrkr Summoner to keep capped Accuracy that it's entirely worth using Sushi to do it, which means they can realistically cap Acc on all but Thief monsters with proper gear, merits, and Sushi.

By the time your Acc uncaps with Sushi and proper gear, your pDIF will be so horrid that the shit damage/hit you're doing isn't worth the TP/hit you're feeding. Your Avatars have a lot of Attack, but they attack slowly and their base damage depends on fSTR. If you're meleeing and feeding TP just so you can keep your Avatar out (instead of doing BP and release) and it can also feed TP while contributing a mediocre amount of damage, then perhaps you should consider releasing and just contributing by feeding less TP and staying out of AoE range. Sometimes being less active is more helpful than being more active.

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BP/release isn't necessary with a halfway decent perp/refresh set

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Originally Posted by Razushu

BP/release isn't necessary with a halfway decent perp/refresh set

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Yeah, didn't think so, but then Myrkr really gains almost nothing (just SMN DPS with very low pDIF). I always try to lean my comparisons as far towards my opponents as I can. Also, there are bound to be situations where the TP that your avatar feeds isn't worth the damage it does. BPs don't give TP, which is a point I often don't feel is emphasized enough.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Don't you wish you were alive in 2006? Those guys strutted around thinking SMN missed 80% of the time.

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I think only you thought that.

But then again, only you would melee as SMN, even though you died 9 times out of 10 on anything important. 7 times out of 10 on anything worthless. Point remains, you still suck.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

Yeah, didn't think so, but then Myrkr really gains almost nothing (just SMN DPS with very low pDIF). I always try to lean my comparisons as far towards my opponents as I can. Also, there are bound to be situations where the TP that your avatar feeds isn't worth the damage it does. BPs don't give TP, which is a point I often don't feel is emphasized enough.

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You can give SMN 300 STR/DEX vs a naked WAR using H2H (no weapon) and the WAR will still beat the SMN in melee damage. Since Myrkr does 0 damage, no point in bringing up total DoT damage either.

Oh good, we've moved on to the pDif defense. Before we do that, would someone mind committing to "anything that matters" outside of Abyssea that you would melee? There's some NMs that drop junk L75 gear, and there's a ton of EPs, there's some new avoidable L90+ trash, and there's Voidwatch.

Let's establish that something (anything) exists that SMN would need sushi.

Byakko, and Kirin.

That falls under "junk 75 drops." More specifically it falls under "Sky gear that ignored SMN." Extremely unimportant, but sure, people still lowman that stuff.

It's 2 well known fights, what accuracy is needed?

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But I do admit that DNC is like B+ when SMN is a terrible B.

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B isn't terrible, and staves are 2-handed, so accuracy is not as low as some people think. And if you really do need more accuracy, marinara pizza is nice since you get some attack as well.

Remember that for a long time PUPs were meleeing with C+.

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Byakko, and Kirin.

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What summoner would want to involve himself with either of these NMs? Neither has anything of interest. (Not saying I wouldn't help a friend, of course- but barring that)

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You can give SMN 300 STR/DEX vs a naked WAR using H2H (no weapon) and the WAR will still beat the SMN in melee damage. Since Myrkr does 0 damage, no point in bringing up total DoT damage either.

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Nonsense, and the Aftermath adds more damage than most other staff weapon skills could.

I know I keep coming back here, but I hate it. This just keeps going around in circles. Agree to bleeping disagree.

You can argue all day about how much summoner gains from meleeing. You can say the overall total isn't competitive yet, and that's fine, but mister spreadsheet has indicated that the summoner is able to inflict more damage than the avatar. That's both a good thing (because it adds damage) and a bad thing (why is the avatar so weak?). You want to say it's not good enough? That's fine. Go ahead. But meleeing is still better than not if you're able to.

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Yeah, didn't think so, but then Myrkr really gains almost nothing

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The point of Myrkr isn't to manage MP better than a BP/releaser. The point of Myrkr is to be able to melee and still have no trouble with MP. Myrkr far outweighs wearing a perp staff with low damage. How much more MP you have as a result is not relevant, because you don't run out either way.

Let's give Kirin a chance. I've already meleed Fenrir.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Oh good, we've moved on to the pDif defense. Before we do that, would someone mind committing to "anything that matters" outside of Abyssea that you would melee? There's some NMs that drop junk L75 gear, and there's a ton of EPs, there's some new avoidable L90+ trash, and there's Voidwatch.

Let's establish that something (anything) exists that SMN would need sushi.

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Any T-VT Dynamis monster/force pop. Any Voidwatch NM. I'd bring a summoner to both of those events, and possibly only those events at the moment. Show me that your Summoner can melee in the two events in the game where I think it is an optimal alliance member right now.

I'd bet some pretty solid gil that you aren't capping hit rate on Dynamis NMs, and I'd bet you even more solid gil that your pDIF is utter shit on them. I know my Dancer's is for sure, and you'd have substantially less Attack than me when you have comparable Acc.

Plus, it's not a "defense," because you haven't shown anything to defend again. In fact, you haven't provided a single piece of data or example to support your statements throughout this entire thread. Everything from you would be anecdotal, but you haven't even provided any anecdotes. They're just statements you've made. Please just admit you're a troll so our curiosity can be satisfied and we can move on.