KI-popped-NM Stealing

In battlefield status, the NM still has to return to its pop spot and stand there for a little, so that would not prevent the use of Atma of the Zombie Apocalypse. However, the time limit on confrontation would mean that the NM would depop eventually since the zombies wouldn't be able to do anything to it.

The only valid complaints for mobs going yellow and people not doing things wrong are 1) bsts during pet swaps and 2) the rare random glitch where nobody has died or disengaged, and the mob turns yellow for a second or two. I've seen #2 happen once recently, when some mnk was soloing Pallid Percy. If you're kiting or people are dying and the mob goes yellow, then its probably something you did wrong.

The claim system has been patched before; from what I understand, KB was notorious for turning yellow several times per fight no matter what you did.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

If they are going to add battlefield status to abyssea NMs like the new dynamis stuff, I hope they add 10 minute depop timers as well. So I don't have to deal with people who shouldn't be fighting stuff taking 2 hours to zombie it to death.

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That would actually suck in the end because if you come to help a friend or your friend comes to help you after popping they get locked out and so on and so forth with various scenarios all the way down to inviting some noob in that needs a title.

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Originally Posted by Khiinroye

The claim system has been patched before; from what I understand, KB was notorious for turning yellow several times per fight no matter what you did.

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I can confirm both of these statements as true. Way back in the day when I first started HNM, KB would unclaim like crazy, and at some point they did update the mechanics behind it and made it better, but it's still not perfect. I remember the first time I got to fight KB, I was on RDM and told not to cast any dots on it, because if it ran out of engaging distance and I had a dot on it that it would unclaim.

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Originally Posted by Khajit

That would actually suck in the end because if you come to help a friend or your friend comes to help you after popping they get locked out and so on and so forth with various scenarios all the way down to inviting some noob in that needs a title.

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Ya, it does happen and it sucks. The other day I went to do some Dynamis Lords, and our bard was going to pop it, and was rotating through the 2 parties and actually popped it outside the alliance, and no one could fight it. It was pretty lol.

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The more you talk the less you appear to know about the game at all. Have you seriously never been in an bcnm to know how they work?

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I haven`t done much Dyna since the update so I`m really not sure what people are talking about when they refer to `battlefield status` in there. I was thinking more along the lines of the Voidwatch/VNM system. Have you never fought a VNM to know what i`m referring to? Are you capable of posting without slinging insults?

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Mobs don't instantly depop if you wipe, they walk back to their spawn point, and then stand there for a bit. And I guess you are on the side of people who spend 2 hours fighting something with an alliance I could solo in 10 minutes, so I guess you wouldn't understand what I mean. But the basic idea is that it's ignorant and rude to zombie hold stuff when people are waiting for you to be done, that's why they will steal it from you and kill it, not because they are bad selfish people, but because you are. (most of the time this is true anyway, there are some real jerks around)

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No of course I don`t support people who take two hours to zombie kill, not that I`ve EVER seen that happen in the game. Unless you`re tending to massive hyperbole (which i suspect), I`m not sure what backwater server you`d be on to see that happening. If people do that kind of thing, then by all means they deserve to have their mobs jacked.

The problem which people seem to keep ignoring is that with the potential there to jack mobs, people are going to attempt do it regardless of whether it`s `fair` or not, because it`s a wholly subjective measure, generally based on how high the sense of self-entitlement is, and how much you cry about people `wasting your time` in a video game. Same point that people were raising with the PDT patch a couple of days ago. Doesn`t matter how much it`s abused, the fact that it can be should be enough to have it changed.

Good example: Some people from my shell I was with the other night jacked an Alfard at 7% when the tank died, and subsequently the WHM. The group probably would have gotten their act together and finished it off, but it didn`t stop the folks in my party from pinging the thing and trying to kill it. Of course the folks I was with claimed the other group wouldn`t have been able to finish it off, not that we got the chance to prove that theory. I was mortally embarrassed by that, not just because it made us look like greedy SOB`s, but because I`d been crafting for one of them and funnily enough, haven`t had any return business since. Even though I need the fangs, I would have turned them down in that situation if the NM hadn`t of been handed back to the original group.

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Originally Posted by blowfin

I haven`t done much Dyna since the update so I`m really not sure what people are talking about when they refer to `battlefield status` in there. I was thinking more along the lines of the Voidwatch/VNM system. Have you never fought a VNM to know what i`m referring to? Are you capable of posting without slinging insults?

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Well at least you confirmed you have no clue what you're talking about...

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Originally Posted by Khajit

Well at least you confirmed you have no clue what you're talking about...

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lolDyna

Confirmed. I don`t care about it.

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Originally Posted by Tamoa

Why make a new thread when there is an almost identical one on
page 1 of this forum section?: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...ne-Is-Not-Dead

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The only way to get a problem fixed is to keep complaining about until something is done. If only one person complains then it will probably be overlooked. I agree with TC this should be looked at.

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Originally Posted by Eeek

The claim system is surely so deeply embedded in the game's code that it cannot be changed without drastic and unintended effects throughout the rest of the game. It's not SE's fault if you fail to understand how it works.

Wiping when Murphy's Law is out for your hide is OK. It happens to everyone. Just do everyone a favor and take it like a man. Dust yourself off, swear a few times, and go farm up another KI popset. It's ridiculously easy and you won't look like a whiny little sissy anymore.

As for this?

"If I pop the NM and I suck and lost, I don't want you to have it, is that simple."

If you're going to be that butthurt about the occasional wipe, just CFH it and scream profanities in /say and /shout while throwing an immature temper tantrum that'd be the envy of all the preschoolers across the country.

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Just quoting this because it's the appropriate response to all this whining.

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Originally Posted by blowfin

lolDyna

Confirmed. I don`t care about it.

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Perhaps you should exit the conversation and let grownups who know wtf they're talking about talk?
Here's a hint. Noone was specifically talking about dynamis when it came to battlefields.

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Ganking mobs is surely so deeply embedded in the players mindset that it cannot be changed without drastic and unintended effects throughout the rest of the game. It's not SE's fault if you fail to understand how it works.

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Fixed that for you.

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Originally Posted by Khajit

Here's a hint. Noone was specifically talking about dynamis when it came to battlefields.

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Absolutely nobody?

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If they are going to add battlefield status to abyssea NMs like the new dynamis stuff

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like the new dynamis stuff

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dynamis

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1. Losing claim for whatever reason happens to us all. Like Eeek said, take it like a man.

2. If you repeatedly keep losing claim because you die or otherwise screw up - seriously, suck less.

3. If there really is a glitch that makes mobs randomly go unclaimed for no reason at all, it can't be happening very often because otherwise there would be 4237647625 forum members SCREAMING about it on this forum.

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Originally Posted by blowfin

Absolutely nobody?

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A) improve your grammar comprehension.
B) Stop confirming you have no knowledge of what your talking about by being quiet. We get it. you don't understand a thing and barely understand English. Move on.
C) Read the bleeping manual. There's even an explanation on what the battlefield status is in it although the entire thing is self explanatory.

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A) improve your grammar comprehension.
B) Stop confirming you have no knowledge of what your talking about by being quiet. We get it. you don't understand a thing and barely understand English. Move on.

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So nobody at all mentioned battlefield status in relation to Dynamis. That`s what i`m getting out of this. Unless proven otherwis.... oh wait.

P.S. It`s called reading comprehension by the way.

Well it's been said but I'll reiterate for the lulz:

Non-broken game dynamic does not need fixing.

I've lost Briareus, not because my LS sucks, but because we TP burned it down to 20% in like 30 seconds and got destroyed by colossal slam, our 1 WHM couldn't take the load. We'd done it before, but 2 2hours just took us out.

Did we QQ and rage? No, because we know what we did wrong and haven't lost a Briar since.

On the other hand we take mobs if the other group has disrespected us and/or is 100% weakened, meaning unless they have Mijin Gakure up there is no chance of success without constant zombying/HP'ing and regrouping- which we just won't wait for.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

If they are going to add battlefield status to abyssea NMs like the new dynamis stuff, I hope they add 10 minute depop timers as well. So I don't have to deal with people who shouldn't be fighting stuff taking 2 hours to zombie it to death.

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What about me taking 30 minutes to defeat? Because that is about on average the amount of time it takes me to kill a mob as SMN in A-Altep. Am I zombie it to death? Depends if you consider 4 avatar deaths as zombie tactics.

Either way, by forcing a 10 minute time limit, you just limit different procs (you know that Shinryu's abyssite doesn't give out a hint every WS) and possibly a bad AoE or mistimed cure might cause the time limit to go over. I know, you never experience that because you are able to obtain all procs within 30 seconds of the mob's life, and the other 10 seconds is used to zerg it down. For those of us who don't have all that, 10 minutes can be a stretch. Soloists, almost impossible.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

I've lost Briareus, not because my LS sucks, but because we TP burned it down to 20% in like 30 seconds and got destroyed by colossal slam, our 1 WHM couldn't take the load. We'd done it before, but 2 2hours just took us out.

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My bottom line to this is: if the party is wiped completely, the KI-popped NM should at least remain in claimed for say 30-60 seconds, instead of the instantaneously unclaimed state when 13/18 of the alliance is still on their feet. You know there are people greedy enough to follow your group and wait for this moment.

Doing so, in case the party really want to zombie it, they may realized they suck and will stayed KO for 30-60 second, then someone else can take; at the same time, the other individual/group trying to steal will not be able to take it in the middle of the fight.

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Originally Posted by Khajit

Wrong on multiple counts. If the bst mischarms it has claim of the mob they tried to charm for one.
And I'm not sure on the second account but simply attempting to charm the new mob to throw at it probably loses claim on the NM.
That's not even getting into how if the bst gets more hate from a different monster the pet will move to the new monster and lose claim so the instant a bst gets aggro it has to ignore said aggro or risk losing claim while getting beat on.

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Which, of course, wouldn't happen in Abyssea.

Unless you can charm mobs in there. Which I know you can't. Which is what this thread is talking about, KI-pop'd mobs.

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Originally Posted by Sama

My bottom line to this is: if the party is wiped completely, the KI-popped NM should at least remain in claimed for say 30 seconds, instead of the instantaneously unclaimed state when 17/18 of the alliance is still on their feet. You know there are people greedy enough to follow your group and wait for this moment.

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Happens, but 2/3 times we get them back.

Treat others how they would treat you works in game, so does eye for an eye. If they get you, get them.

("Accidental" MPK works good.)

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Originally Posted by Sama

You know there are people greedy enough to follow your group and wait for this moment.

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Only Futchy has been known to do this tactic. Now that almost everyone knows who he is and what he is capable of doing, they usually already have a GM called on him if he starts hanging around your party/alliance.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Only Futchy has been known to do this tactic. Now that almost everyone knows who he is and what he is capable of doing, they usually already have a GM called on him if he starts hanging around your party/alliance.

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You must never have been to Asura then have you?

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Which, of course, wouldn't happen in Abyssea.

Unless you can charm mobs in there. Which I know you can't. Which is what this thread is talking about, KI-pop'd mobs.

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You forgot the fact that the bst getting hate from any other monster is going to make the mob unclaimed if it exceeds the hate the bst has on the original mob. The lack of charmable mobs doesn't stop that. Bst has it "better" in abyssea as far as claims go because SE gutted half the gameplay involved in bst by not making anything charmable. Well either way it's still near impossible to actually lose your claim if you know wtf you're doing. Bst was the exception to that and currently it's almost impossible for said exception to happen.

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Only Futchy has been known to do this tactic. Now that almost everyone knows who he is and what he is capable of doing, they usually already have a GM called on him if he starts hanging around your party/alliance.

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And yet we`re led to believe he should be trusted when leading a KS99 run.

Protip for those who have multiple relics and still don't know how the FFXI claim system works:

Only One Person Ever Has Claim On Any Single Monster At Any Given Time.

Not an alliance. Not a party. One person. The last person to act on the monster has claim to the monster. If the last person to act on the monster dies, then the mob goes unclaimed until someone else acts on it. It takes a single action to regain claim when the mob already has hate on you. It takes two consecutive actions to take claim when the monster does not have hate on you, eg when an outside player attempts to claim the monster.

Players in the original party are at a distinct advantage in keeping claim over their monster. Any educated player is more than capable of keeping claim over monsters even if people get charmed or killed. You simply have to know what preventative measures to take if the person with claim on the monster dies or gets charmed.

Example: Whenever you see Cep-Kamuy ready Charmga, simply have your healer cast Flash or Dia on it so that they have claim on the monster. Then, when the melees are charmed, Cep will never go Yellow.

TL;DR, Suck Less.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Protip for those who have multiple relics and still don't know how the FFXI claim system works:

Only One Person Ever Has Claim On Any Single Monster At Any Given Time.

Not an alliance. Not a party. One person. The last person to act on the monster has claim to the monster. If the last person to act on the monster dies, then the mob goes unclaimed until someone else acts on it. It takes a single action to regain claim when the mob already has hate on you. It takes two consecutive actions to take claim when the monster does not have hate on you, eg when an outside player attempts to claim the monster.

Players in the original party are at a distinct advantage in keeping claim over their monster. Any educated player is more than capable of keeping claim over monsters even if people get charmed or killed. You simply have to know what preventative measures to take if the person with claim on the monster dies or gets charmed.

Example: Whenever you see Cep-Kamuy ready Charmga, simply have your healer cast Flash or Dia on it so that they have claim on the monster. Then, when the melees are charmed, Cep will never go Yellow.

TL;DR, Suck Less.

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I don't see how you could keep the social point of FFXI (being that nothing is truly instanced) while having a different system.

This system actually puts some PvPvE into FFXI, which I personally enjoy as a form of competition.

I mean its already fairly easy to hold a mob in Abyssea indefinitely without any chance of losing the target just by zombying if you time things correctly.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

Happens, but 2/3 times we get them back.

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This is very strange to me, during the 'unclaimed' phase, the NM will remain unclaimed even you lay your voke on it first. So at that very seconds, there are 5-6 vokes going off and also flash/stun whatever, you will never know whether you can get it back.

This is similar when a mob aggro and someone else try to take that mob. You both (not in the same party) can still hit it, but KI-popped NM are not free! Or at least until the party gave up and admit that they suck please take it free gift.

It does not make sense to me that why the general claim/unclaim rules are being apply to KI-popped NMs.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

You must never have been to Asura then have you?

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/slowclap

Way to go. Good for you.

I said Futchy, as in himself, by himself, for himself.

Old endgame shells would try to steal your NM even if you didn't wipe, but that didn't count because usually about 75-90% of your people were dead or weakened when the mob goes yellow. But by then, you are usually beyond any reasonable recovery and should, as Eeek says, suck less.

Futchy would make his events around other's farming sessions, and try to steal their NMs. I know, he did that to my old linkshell several times if we are poping sky/sea gods, or doing something other than battlefields, limbus, dynamis (although he did jump a zone once or twice a year from us) and other events he can't "steal" our NM.

Other shells did not do that. Only him, while he was on Asura at least. And I heard he did that a couple times on Rag too.

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Originally Posted by Sama

This is very strange to me, during the 'unclaimed' phase, the NM will remain unclaimed even you lay your voke on it first. So at that very seconds, there are 5-6 vokes going off and also flash/stun whatever, you will never know whether you can get it back.

This is similar when a mob aggro and someone else try to take that mob. You both (not in the same party) can still hit it, but KI-popped NM are not free! Or at least until the party gave up and admit that they suck please take it free gift.

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As in when they wipe to a similar KI-spawned NM.

It's not like anyone really takes 1 set of KI's to a NM anyway, unless there is no competition and you can just head on over to the time-spawn KI NM (like Tunga or Amun) and claim whenever you want.

But if you really want to steal a mob instantly, put a Provoke macro and a Chi Blast macro next to eachother and spam them when you see a yellow name. You won't lose it most of the time on mnk (Dia/Flash, Jump/High Jump, any combination of somewhat ranged JA/Spells will work)

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Originally Posted by Korpg

/slowclap

Way to go. Good for you.

I said Futchy, as in himself, by himself, for himself.

Old endgame shells would try to steal your NM even if you didn't wipe, but that didn't count because usually about 75-90% of your people were dead or weakened when the mob goes yellow. But by then, you are usually beyond any reasonable recovery and should, as Eeek says, suck less.

Futchy would make his events around other's farming sessions, and try to steal their NMs. I know, he did that to my old linkshell several times if we are poping sky/sea gods, or doing something other than battlefields, limbus, dynamis (although he did jump a zone once or twice a year from us) and other events he can't "steal" our NM.

Other shells did not do that. Only him, while he was on Asura at least. And I heard he did that a couple times on Rag too.

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So then you've never been to Asura?

No one does events around stealing mobs, but they certainly do it without remorse when a mob's name goes yellow.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

So then you've never been to Asura?

No one does events around stealing mobs, but they certainly do it without remorse when a mob's name goes yellow.

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What about you, you never been on Asura either?

I was talking about old school system, not current one. Of course nobody would do that, that would be a major waste of time. What I did state was before the cap increase, and when Futchy was on Asura. Since he is currently not on Asura, and I was talking about stuff that had some merit prior to Abyssea, I figured you would put two and two together. Guess I overestimated you. Sorry, won't happen again.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Example: Whenever you see Cep-Kamuy ready Charmga, simply have your healer cast Flash or Dia on it so that they have claim on the monster. Then, when the melees are charmed, Cep will never go Yellow.

TL;DR, Suck Less.

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Greatguardian you are right and I believe there are 10 thousand ways to do it also. Just take yours for example, your whm flash, he dies, then mob goes yellow and all the sudden someone took it, what would you do? You can buy pop item from AH for Cep-Kamuy that's no problem go ahead and take it, but for some other NM you needs lots time and manpower to get KIs.

Just like my previous post, the NM should at least remain claimed for a short period of time. The charming one is something else, tho.

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Originally Posted by Sama

Greatguardian you are right and I believe there are 10 thousand ways to do it also. Just take yours for example, your whm flash, he dies, then mob goes yellow and all the sudden someone took it, what would you do? You can buy pop item from AH for Cep-Kamuy that's no problem go ahead and take it, but for some other NM you needs lots time and manpower to get KIs.

Just like my previous post, the NM should at least remain claimed for a short period of time. The charming one is something else, tho.

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Brain fart, I meant Cirein-Croin. Cep doesn't charmga.

But if a WHM flashes and then dies, that's their own fault. WHMs are sturdier than melees anyways, and practically invincible in Abyssea. That's not the point of course, the point being that when the last person to act on the mob dies that the mob goes unclaimed. However, this is incredibly easy to avoid if people aren't being stupid.

And as I mentioned in the same post, the original party has a 2:1 advantage on re-claiming the monster as long as they are paying as much attention as the "stealing" party. No one should ever be anything less than alert when a body drops while fighting an NM anyways. Losing claim to inattentiveness is perfectly fair, and can happen to either side.

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Brain fart, I meant Cirein-Croin. Cep doesn't charmga.

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You're lucky Khajit is your friend, or he'd postulate that you'd never done Abyssea before.

I am curious. What NM exactly takes a lot of manpower to get KIs from? Or hours to get a KI for that matter?

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Originally Posted by blowfin

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines.]

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Clearly it means I am friends with every single non-idiot that plays this game whether or not I have ever interacted with them.
It is also clear that Rl friends that play on the same server as me have much less knowledge as to whom I even know exists than you.

PS: your friendship request is denied.

There actually anything even left to say on this topic that isn't a rehash of old info?

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Originally Posted by Henihhi

I am curious. What NM exactly takes a lot of manpower to get KIs from? Or hours to get a KI for that matter?

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The only 2 possible mobs i can think of is that annoying ironclad in ulegrand if it isn't killed asap and the chariot with discoid but those aren't even an issue of time as much as manpower if you have improper jobs.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

What about you, you never been on Asura either?

I was talking about old school system, not current one. Of course nobody would do that, that would be a major waste of time. What I did state was before the cap increase, and when Futchy was on Asura. Since he is currently not on Asura, and I was talking about stuff that had some merit prior to Abyssea, I figured you would put two and two together. Guess I overestimated you. Sorry, won't happen again.

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You know what they say about people who just assume.

I was on Pandemonium forced onto Asura, and didn't play the endgame scene on Asura either so it's not like I had prior knowledge of the situation.

My point was that whole groups still /follow you around when you are fighting almost anything. Some servers it happens and you gotta live with it, some servers there's a 'honor code.'

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

You know what they say about people who just assume.

I was on Pandemonium forced onto Asura, and didn't play the endgame scene on Asura either so it's not like I had prior knowledge of the situation.

My point was that whole groups still /follow you around when you are fighting almost anything. Some servers it happens and you gotta live with it, some servers there's a 'honor code.'

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Wait, I'm confused.

You state that you know what went on prior to everything, then you admit that you don't. And you admit that people don't follow others around, but you just said here that people sometimes do?

What is your angle anyway?

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Wait, I'm confused.

You state that you know what went on prior to everything, then you admit that you don't. And you admit that people don't follow others around, but you just said here that people sometimes do?

What is your angle anyway?

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Maybe you have me confused with someone else... I knew it (NM stealing) has always happened, but I was never a part of it before Abyssea, on Asura anyway.

I sarcastically asked if you have ever been to Asura because NM stealing and /follow is so rampant on that server, while you were saying that only this "Futchy" did it. I doubt I would admit that people don't follow others around, because I take part in it on Asura in certain situations, and have had it happen to me often.

My "angle" is that I don't want it to change because it actually brings a reason to not suck and zombie everything to death.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

I sarcastically asked if you have ever been to Asura because NM stealing and /follow is so rampant on that server, while you were saying that only this "Futchy" did it. I doubt I would admit that people don't follow others around, because I take part in it on Asura in certain situations, and have had it happen to me often.

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If you mean when people hang around after you are fighting a NM, and trying to steal your claim if it goes yellow, I think that happens everywhere, especially if that other group is going to fight the same mob you are currently fighting now.

What Futchy did was intentionally MPK entire shells just to steal their NM. He would have his entire shell in the middle of the fight area just to lag out people, and make it hard for the WHMs to cure the tank. He would also have his BRDs continue to cast songs just to make people get red dots. Which worked half the time. Which people GM him for, but they never do anything to him or his shell.

There is a difference between the two. I doubt that people actually /follow you to another pop. I think that is just your paranoia in action there.

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Originally Posted by Eeek

The claim system is surely so deeply embedded in the game's code that it cannot be changed without drastic and unintended effects throughout the rest of the game.

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Actually, that's probably easier to fix than one would think. SE used object oriented programming when developing this game meaning that the math variables and everything that configures hate and enmity is likely set off in it's own seperate file. Proving that SE had done this, changing the math that would configure hate should'nt be too hard. Even if it was something like, changing it to where the mob's hate will not drop below a certain level no matter how little hate is being generated, as long as some action or move is performed within 15seconds by someone on the mobs hate list (excluding death which still erases hate). While maybe not a total fix it would keep mobs from going unclaimed right away when using a hate erase move followed or proceeded by some form of potent paralyze, stun, or petrification.