Job Vision: Watch paint dry

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Originally Posted by Razushu

I have to agree with you on Avatar's Favor it was the most underwhelming job adjustment in the history of this game, it's the best example of too much cost for too little reward. But that was 2 years ago and SE seems to have changed since 80 cap I haven't felt like SE's red headed stepchild.

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You know, at the time Favor was introduced, it was hailed as a great job ability for Summoner. It was worth the lower 2 perp cost to give up minimal stats that you can now Carby Kite NMs to death, like anything 95+ at 75. Which I did, a lot, on the new NMs that later came to play. Specially ones that would kill any zerg stratagy alliance with just spike spells alone.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

You know, at the time Favor was introduced, it was hailed as a great job ability for Summoner. It was worth the lower 2 perp cost to give up minimal stats that you can now Carby Kite NMs to death, like anything 95+ at 75. Which I did, a lot, on the new NMs that later came to play. Specially ones that would kill any zerg stratagy alliance with just spike spells alone.

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I could Carby kite already, before Favor I was getting +1mp per tick on him/her back then. I was super impressed by the ability when it was announced but in reality it fell flat on it's face, aside from very niche uses.

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Originally Posted by Razushu

I could Carby kite already, before Favor I was getting +1mp per tick on him/her back then. I was super impressed by the ability when it was announced but in reality it fell flat on it's face, aside from very niche uses.

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Well, having 4 free avatars with favor up gave you some options.

Like having Fenrir and his higher def and HP to survive longer, and some fights, the avatars didn't last as long as the timers allowed either.

Or Garuda and her strength against wind damage.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Well, having 4 free avatars with favor up gave you some options.

Like having Fenrir and his higher def and HP to survive longer, and some fights, the avatars didn't last as long as the timers allowed either.

Or Garuda and her strength against wind damage.

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Only things I found favor useful for was mainhealing, I'd have Carby out meleeing on the mob giving Regen to the melees and refresh, either for other party members or the odd time when I'd die and resting wasn't an option I'd summon Diabolos and hit Astral Flow and Favor while moving to get my MP back up to decent levels.

I didn't use favor for soloing or anything, if I needed a different avatar to Carby I'd use Yag drinks etc. to manage perp or make sure I'm able to Siphon mid fight.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

You forgot to mention defense bonus and resist virus with the list of buffs that would make SMN more useless.

Now if you could get 15% haste with a spell that would be something. Oh wait.

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It's called Hastega and you get it with EVERY SJ ^^

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

It's called Hastega and you get it with EVERY SJ ^^

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Unintended victim of a woosh.

Don't worry, your death will not be in vain!

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

It said right below the part OP quoted that they were adding an ability to allow you to pay extra MP for the privilege of having a faster BP timer. Did you just not read this part or what?

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Unintended victim of a woosh.

Don't worry, your death will not be in vain!

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He was implying that we should sub whm for that 15% haste, and not war for all the other melee benefits. But thanks for your input

SMN doesn't need to sub WHM for haste. It has haste built in.

summoner always had a bad time in ffxi. First you always had to have /whm and be a healer. then they broke up the spells for ward and rage this helped a tad. But ya. They should make the job more active.

As for attacking witha staff. A smn should do it. The tp move that dmg=mp is very good for a smn. (spirit taker)

Anyway that my 2 cents :)

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

He was implying that we should sub whm for that 15% haste, and not war for all the other melee benefits. But thanks for your input

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Leon was refering to Dallas's, for the better term, crusade for SMN melee.

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The tp move that dmg=mp is very good for a smn.

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Myrkr is a lot better than Spirit Taker, just fyi.

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Originally Posted by Daniel

summoners have plenty to do, maybe your just not very good at it..

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Really? Maybe you're just not playing with very good WHMs. Outside of Bloodpacting, name 1 other thing a SMN can do that other mages shouldn't already be handling.

I don't deny SMN is a great DD for Voidwatch Content, stuff like that where your pets being disposable is nice, and for uses such as Earthern Armor.

But they can't really do anything between BP timers that shouldnt already be taken care of by your mages. I mean sure if a lot of people are hit by an AoE they can help cure, But that really shouldn't happen much if your group is decent.

(please Note im talking about Voidwatch Content, Not abyssea)

My good intentions go unnoticed...

Forgot about Hastega, but either way /war is a horrible subjob for everyone but MNK, NIN and SAM, maybe THF and DNC in rare occaisons. Everyone else should either be subbing SAM for 2handed melee, NIN for DW, BLU for PvP, WHM for haste and Cure IV, or RDM for MP. Situational sh~~ is situational as always though...

For actual use, Hastega is just kind of nice. Haste goes out of party, and if your SMN is in a party where they can all be hasted at the same time, then something is wrong.

That's all I meant. sadface

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and if your SMN is in a party where they can all be hasted at the same time, then something is wrong.

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Uh no, something is right, because that means you have a party full of cooperative, intelligent players who make it easy for other people to buff them.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Uh no, something is right, because that means you have a party full of cooperative, intelligent players who make it easy for other people to buff them.

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Al this will go nowhere again, the SMN is only good in fail groups argument will just be resurrected.

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Originally Posted by Razushu

Al this will go nowhere again, the SMN is only good in fail groups argument will just be resurrected.

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Not entirely true.

SMN is actually quite useful in Voidwatch content. If you've done higher than T2 You'll realize this quickly :P

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Really? Maybe you're just not playing with very good WHMs. Outside of Bloodpacting, name 1 other thing a SMN can do that other mages shouldn't already be handling.

I don't deny SMN is a great DD for Voidwatch Content, stuff like that where your pets being disposable is nice, and for uses such as Earthern Armor.

But they can't really do anything between BP timers that shouldnt already be taken care of by your mages. I mean sure if a lot of people are hit by an AoE they can help cure, But that really shouldn't happen much if your group is decent.

(please Note im talking about Voidwatch Content, Not abyssea)

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It doesn't matter how good the WHM is the party will always benefit from more support. Funny thing about those other mages that should be handling things is, SMN falls quite nicely into the same category with them.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Not entirely true.

SMN is actually quite useful in Voidwatch content. If you've done higher than T2 You'll realize this quickly :P

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I was referring to the 10+ pages of a thread me, all and LLH among others cyclically argued about SMN in parties with no progress or concession made lol, it was a special time.

I find my SMN useful in all kinds of situations, but I do hear SMN is amazing in voidwatch. When they add gear I want to void watch I'll have to try it lol

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Originally Posted by Razushu

It doesn't matter how good the WHM is the party will always benefit from more support. Funny thing about those other mages that should be handling things is, SMN falls quite nicely into the same category with them.

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This is where our opinions differ then. If your support team can do the job without you just fine, like they should, using "More support :D!" as an excuse isn't good enough my friend.

You could technically throw out a Hastega, But what good group puts a SMN in the Melee party? rhetorical question none do nor should. SMN is best served in a BLM or Tank party. BLM party for Diabolos Whoring, Perhaps the Occasional Shiva-Favor or Diabolos' MAB Ward, and Tank party for Earthern Armor for higher teir VNMs (Its very helpful).

But again i say, Those fall under Bloodpacts. Outside of that If you're /WHM, You get Na's, and a few cures, and haste. thats all the uses from sub job WHM, on /SCH you get the same minus Haste.

So i'm not quite sure what you're trying to say at this point so I'll wait for another response and go from there. I still believe you can't do anything on SMN inbetween BP's that a Mage in your party should already be handling.

Sure, you could help, but realistically they don't need it. Obviously as I said if something huge happens like multiple people getting hit by an AoE due to bad luck, You help cure/na, But that shouldn't happen very often.

There are exceptions to the above, But they happen rarely or only as you said (and as we dont want to bring up) happen in groups where your mages are sub-par and cannot handle their tasks adequately.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

This is where our opinions differ then. If your support team can do the job without you just fine, like they should, using "More support :D!" as an excuse isn't good enough my friend.

You could technically throw out a Hastega, But what good group puts a SMN in the Melee party? rhetorical question none do nor should. SMN is best served in a BLM or Tank party. BLM party for Diabolos Whoring, Perhaps the Occasional Shiva-Favor or Diabolos' MAB Ward, and Tank party for Earthern Armor for higher teir VNMs (Its very helpful).

But again i say, Those fall under Bloodpacts. Outside of that If you're /WHM, You get Na's, and a few cures, and haste. thats all the uses from sub job WHM, on /SCH you get the same minus Haste.

So i'm not quite sure what you're trying to say at this point so I'll wait for another response and go from there. I still believe you can't do anything on SMN inbetween BP's that a Mage in your party should already be handling.

Sure, you could help, but realistically they don't need it. Obviously as I said if something huge happens like multiple people getting hit by an AoE due to bad luck, You help cure/na, But that shouldn't happen very often.

There are exceptions to the above, But they happen rarely or only as you said (and as we dont want to bring up) happen in groups where your mages are sub-par and cannot handle their tasks adequately.

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My point is that when on SMN I am that mage that you claim should be handling it. I've been in melee parties and buffed them well, with no complaints. If I'm on SMN there's at most a WHM in the party so my support helps alot more than you think.

SMN support is only superflous if support is already covered, but the same is true of any support role. I wouldnt put a SMN in a group with a WHM + another support mage as that would be overkill, but SMN contributes just fine if it's SMN + WHM or RDM or SCH as the support in a party.

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I've been in melee parties and buffed them well, with no complaints.

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It is the opposite you need to look for. Complaints about buffs they aren't getting. I rarely ever hear anyone ask for buffs when I play SMN. They simply think the job doesn't have any useful ones.

I've been in melee parties and not buffed them, with no complaints. SMN is viewed as that odd job that nobody cares what it does, as long as it doesn't lagg the screen or feed TP.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

It is the opposite you need to look for. Complaints about buffs they aren't getting. I rarely ever hear anyone ask for buffs when I play SMN. They simply think the job doesn't have any useful ones.

I've been in melee parties and not buffed them, with no complaints. SMN is viewed as that odd job that nobody cares what it does, as long as it doesn't lagg the screen or feed TP.

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I've gone to plenty of things and been asked to focus on buffs and heals. By complaints I meant "Why is there a SMN buffing us where's our BRD, COR?".

Sometimes those parties are great, if you don't feel like doing much that night :D

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Sometimes those parties are great, if you don't feel like doing much that night

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That is one thing I can't deny. It is very relaxing to play SMN. (Unless you are solo kiting something)

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

I've been in melee parties and not buffed them, with no complaints. SMN is viewed as that odd job that nobody cares what it does, as long as it doesn't lagg the screen or feed TP.

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You! Take the words "feed TP" and throw it outside. Shut the door when the idiots chase it outside.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

You! Take the words "feed TP" and throw it outside. Shut the door when the idiots chase it outside.

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Dallas the TP feed argument isn't "Ugh you're feeding TP stop meleeing" it's actually "That damage you're doing better be worth the TP you're feeding", just thought you should know.

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Originally Posted by Razushu

Dallas the TP feed argument isn't "Ugh you're feeding TP stop meleeing" it's actually "That damage you're doing better be worth the TP you're feeding", just thought you should know.

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But that makes sense! You can't make sense when Dallas is around. You have to make outrageous claims like doing 10x damage than a Ukon WAR naked.

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Originally Posted by Razushu

My point is that when on SMN I am that mage that you claim should be handling it. I've been in melee parties and buffed them well, with no complaints. If I'm on SMN there's at most a WHM in the party so my support helps alot more than you think.

SMN support is only superflous if support is already covered, but the same is true of any support role. I wouldnt put a SMN in a group with a WHM + another support mage as that would be overkill, but SMN contributes just fine if it's SMN + WHM or RDM or SCH as the support in a party.

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And my point is a SMN will not always be in that position. not every groups forgoes a support-class or seems to need more than 1 mage to cover a haste cycle, to invite a SMN, Sometimes a SMN is there for DD, and In those situations, the ones I more or less was talking about, You're better of meleeing so long as theres nothing extenuating to prevent it, I.E Heavy AoEs, Mobs with Nasty TP moves where it would be wiser to keep TP feed down (Theres very few of those), and etc.

Its not about "Melee is perfect for everything", What your describing is clearly and obviously a situation where melee would not be a good idea, And I'm not saying SMN melee has a huge place. Its a very small place.

In the risk of talking in circles and not being able to shake the feeling im not explaining something right. The more i think about it the more I have to wonder Why, If a mob has no debilitating* TP moves, SMN are so adamant against Meleeing? If your skill is capped and you have half a brain cell, you can melee and perform your DD/Buffing Tasks if you are so there for them.

*Debilitating as in, Inflicts Silence or Paralyze, Heavy Damage, or specifically dangerous (I.E Erases Cruor buffs or something like Bhuki). However if its a mob like... Pascerpot, Chirrw/e(Djinn), stuff like those with no innately dangerous TP moves or spells (Banishga III might hurt but can be stunned)... Wheres the harm?

Again I'm not advocating melee on every mob, or even a lot of mobs, In fact is very specific locations and situations, and confined to Abyssea specifically, I'm just saying there are some very small/few Situations where it would be slightly more beneficial, After all you can still Cure, -na, and Buff while Meleeing, No? so if you're half competent it should not be a problem.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

And my point is a SMN will not always be in that position. not every groups forgoes a support-class or seems to need more than 1 mage to cover a haste cycle, to invite a SMN, Sometimes a SMN is there for DD, and In those situations, the ones I more or less was talking about, You're better of meleeing so long as theres nothing extenuating to prevent it, I.E Heavy AoEs, Mobs with Nasty TP moves where it would be wiser to keep TP feed down (Theres very few of those), and etc.

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If a SMN is there as a DD, chances are very good the mob is for whatever reason not the kind a mage should be meleeing on. SMN has more to offer as support than haste. I wouldn't say you'd be better off, on weaker mobs close to even. TP feed being kept down is always a good idea, unless its a trash/exp mob. Just because because an NM's TP moves aren't "OMG! we're all dead! Oh the humanity!" doesn't mean that more of them won't be a pain.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Its not about "Melee is perfect for everything", What your describing is clearly and obviously a situation where melee would not be a good idea, And I'm not saying SMN melee has a huge place. Its a very small place.

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I've said that lots already, I melee on EP/trash mobs all the time, it has niche uses.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

In the risk of talking in circles and not being able to shake the feeling im not explaining something right. The more i think about it the more I have to wonder Why, If a mob has no debilitating* TP moves, SMN are so adamant against Meleeing? If your skill is capped and you have half a brain cell, you can melee and perform your DD/Buffing Tasks if you are so there for them.

*Debilitating as in, Inflicts Silence or Paralyze, Heavy Damage, or specifically dangerous (I.E Erases Cruor buffs or something like Bhuki). However if its a mob like... Pascerpot, Chirrw/e(Djinn), stuff like those with no innately dangerous TP moves or spells (Banishga III might hurt but can be stunned)... Wheres the harm?

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Mostly because on anything tough mage melee would not be worth the TP it feeds(there was some math in one of the threads here and it showed an empy SMN did about a 1/4* the damage of an empy WAR). A TP move doesn't need to debuff to to be a pain, the mere increase in TP moves could turn a cake walk into a chore, even if it's only putting a larger drain on the healer to keep the tank healthy.

TBH the question I keep asking the more I think about it is, if this was a single player game where you built and controlled a party of 6, how many of us would go out of their way to take a backline character scrape together what meager frontline friendly gear it had available and insist on playing it as a melee?

*This was not counting avatar damage, before Dallas rides in on his trusty big wheel to save the day for melee mages everywhere. Avatar Damage is not part of the mage melee debate as it's there backline or frontline and its main DMG is TP less.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Again I'm not advocating melee on every mob, or even a lot of mobs, In fact is very specific locations and situations, and confined to Abyssea specifically, I'm just saying there are some very small/few Situations where it would be slightly more beneficial, After all you can still Cure, -na, and Buff while Meleeing, No? so if you're half competent it should not be a problem.

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I've said it before and I'll say it again, any job can be geared for melee and in Abyssea what the hell go nuts. On anything meaner than trash mobs the slightly extra melee damage is kind of a push when weighed against stuff like the age old TP arguement or extra risk to the mage meleeing.

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Originally Posted by Razushu

Dallas the TP feed argument isn't "Ugh you're feeding TP stop meleeing" it's actually "That damage you're doing better be worth the TP you're feeding", just thought you should know.

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Then level staff and get a real weapon. You aren't qualified to speak about SMN damage, tickler.

Remember my aftermath hits hit harder than your Full Swings. LOL

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Then level staff and get a real weapon. You aren't qualified to speak about SMN damage, tickler.

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So sayeth the 1/4 WAR.

You should learn fractions.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

You should learn fractions.

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Forget this already? Posted here

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...utility/page44

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Pretty much what Byrth said.

I ran WAR at approx 1,000 DPS (991.803) under those conditions, completely ignoring self-Light damage (which is a ton).

SMN is clocking in at 253.401 DPS without Garuda (this is probably still too high, since I'm just editing a WAR spreadsheet a bit haphazardly), and 342.289 DPS when you add in Pclaws. An Avatar's basic melee hit that isn't receiving any outside buffs (namely, Haste) is not going to have a huge impact on that number. Let's be generous and say it bumps it up to 400 DPS even?

I'll definitely admit to potential hyperbole in saying that a WAR is going to do 5x SMN's damage. But even giving SMN a lot of leeway, they're not doing even half as much as the Ukon WAR.

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WAR = 991.803

SMN = 253.401

That WAR is doing 3.91 times your DMG on SMN. that makes your SMN very close to 1/4 of a WAR.

LMAO some idiot told you to throw out avatar damage so you did. I posted correctly adjusted numbers that I bet you don't have the guts to acknowledge. Post it, because picking the wrong numbers is in no way making up for your failure with Full Swing.

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Originally Posted by Razushu

First i was like "SAY WAAAT" Then i was all "aight"

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Have you noticed we're arguing the same thing in two different threads >_>?

I'm pretty sure you two are just wasting time trying to argue what you haven't been able to settle the last months. I'm convinced Raz is underestimating the power of SMN, and Dallas overestimating it. I'm sure the job lies at moderate melee damage, where it should be.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

LMAO some idiot told you to throw out avatar damage so you did. I posted correctly adjusted numbers that I bet you don't have the guts to acknowledge. Post it, because picking the wrong numbers is in no way making up for your failure with Full Swing.

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Dallas you don't get to count Avatar damage as a positive point of melee SMN as it's there on both styles. We're talking about SMN melee which is in fact 1/4 that of a DD, and avatar damage has nothing to do with melee.

Those are correct numbers, hell they we're even skewed in your favour.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Have you noticed we're arguing the same thing in two different threads >_>?

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We're arguing? I thought we were reaching a consensus:(

What can I say I like to wander.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

I'm pretty sure you two are just wasting time trying to argue what you haven't been able to settle the last months. I'm convinced Raz is underestimating the power of SMN, and Dallas overestimating it. I'm sure the job lies at moderate melee damage, where it should be.

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I'm really sorry Mala but it's still fun to mess with Dallas. I'm really not underestimating it, the bolded numbers reflect SMNs powers as a melee, and since it's a mage they're pretty low as is to be expected.

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Originally Posted by Razushu

We're arguing? I thought we were reaching a consensus:(

What can I say I like to wander.

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I meant arguing as the basic term for conversation/debate.

Not really a "RAGE FITTTTTTT" Just more of a "we're discussing the same thing". Could have worded it better!

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

I meant arguing as the basic term for conversation/debate.

Not really a "RAGE FITTTTTTT" Just more of a "we're discussing the same thing". Could have worded it better!

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Ah well that's ok, sorry for making you thread hop.

I think we're fairly close to agreed as it is, or I hope so.