Job Adjustments manifesto Discussion

Plus, there are no jobs that deal out AoE Light-based sleep....oh wai...

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Plus, there are no jobs that deal out AoE Light-based sleep....oh wai...

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Perhaps you have a short memory, but the claim being made is that BLM/SCH is the second best crowd controller in dynamis (or even the entire game). Are you saying that BRD or BLU are the second best crowd controller in the game?

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Originally Posted by Slycer

BLM/SCH would not have access to gravity.

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Doh! Yeah I missed that one.

[SIZE="5"]Dear Dev Room:[/SIZE]

Hello. This is Kagato again. Thought I would share my opinions about the Dark Knight Manifesto.

Ok. DRK is supposed to sacrifice something in order to gain something. Alright. I'll bite.

Sacrificing TP to deal greater damage isn't a very good idea unless the damage boost is high enough to make us not want to bother with Weapon Skills. Otherwise, every DRK in the game is going to ignore this ability. The way we Dark Knights play this game is to get TP as quickly as possible in order to use Guillotine (scythe) or Torcleaver (Great Sword) as often as we can for the highest possible damage per second. The amount of damage we get from this ability needs to compensate for the TP loss. If we ultimately do less damage or an equal amount of damage that we normally would do without this new ability, then there is absolutely no reason to use it. In order for us Dark Knights to want to use this ability, we need to do more damage overall than we used to.

The way we gear ourselves is to pack on the Haste gear and then get as much Store TP as we can to reach 100% TP in the fewest amount of swings, so this includes Store TP gear and having a Samurai Subjob. I don't know how aware the developers are to us playing this way, but it's how we do things in order to keep up with other jobs. With Scythes, the ultimate goal is to get enough TP to use a weaponskill in a minimum of 5 attacks. With Greatswords, it's 6. By lowering or removing TP gain, that strategy goes away. Therefore, we Dark Knights need a reason to want to use an ability that lowers TP gain.


Now then, on to magic.

An ability that increases magic damage and magic weaponskill damage by increasing overall damage taken is only half as good as it sounds. Dark Knights have little need to want to be close to an enemy with terrible defenses in order to use an Elemental Weaponskill (which, by the way, DRKs pretty much never, ever use). That leaves us with increased elemental magic power. Ok, I can see how that could be useful for when melee isn't a good idea. I have been in a few fights where all I could do to help is sit back and cast dark magic...

Wait. Dark magic....

Yeah about that... Dark Knights don't really find any usefulness out of elemental magic spells since we do very little damage with them. So here is my proposal. if you want to give us an ability that increases out elemental magical damage, then that ability needs to make our elemental magic do damage equal to any of the "IV" spells since all we have is "III" spells. If that can be done, then I'm ok with it. If not, then elemental magic is going to continue collecting dust in my magic list.

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We try not to think of short-term benefits. We look at long term. We want to have abilities that sacrifices something to gain something else the right way.

Therefore, this is my suggestion:

If I remember correctly, there is an ability in Final Fantasy IX that allows a character to sacrifice MP in order to deal higher melee damage. Perhaps that can be used instead of TP, like a souleater for MP called "Mindeater" or something. Or, sacrificing overall magical ability in order to increase overall physical damage output might be a good idea too.

Vice Versa can be said for Magic. If you still like the idea of TP loss = gain in something, then why not sacrifice melee power for magic power? TP is part of melee, so if you want us to sacrifice TP, have us do so to increase MAGICAL damage. This would give Occult Acumen more use as well since casting magic feeds us a little TP at a time, extending the use of this ability. Perhaps something that increases weapon delay and decreases defense (like in the manifesto) that increases all magic output rather than just elemental. Dark Magic becomes stronger and more potent while elemental magic becomes strong enough to be more viable against monsters of our own level.

With this idea in mind, Dark Knights can continue to sacrifice something in order to gain power elsewhere while also allowing us Dark Knights more versatility in combat since we can pretty much activate "melee mode" or "magic mode." And of course, not using anything makes us well-rounded but not better in either aspect.

*******

So, very long story short, Dark Knights want abilities that are useful overall in the long run. In order to keep Dark Knights happy while still using their "sacrifice something in order to gain something else," the most logical stance is to sacrifice magical ability to increase melee ability and melee ability sacrificed for magical ability.

The current manifesto basically says that we sacrifice melee for melee and defense for magic. It just doesn't seem really logical.

Also, one more thing. It would be nice to give us new Dark Magic spells exclusive to us. Be they new absorb spells or Dark Magic based enfeebles, like Curse or Plague.

Dark Knights want to be versatile in every situation. Maybe not in the same vain as Warriors being able to use any melee weapon they wish and to change between being a tank or a damage dealer with all of their options, but in a way where Dark Knights can aid a battle through melee or magical means.

Having the ability to choose which "battle stance" we want, melee or magic, would give us such versatility.

couldn't have wrote it better myself (well I could have! but i'm being polite!) mwah ha ha ha ha ha


also dear se,

plz gawd fix our weaponskill damage numbers.

They're pitiful.

Actually, if you write your own "version" than they might be more inclined to listen since it's not just one crazy DRK throwing his own logic around.

It'll be two. :3

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Originally Posted by Kagato

Actually, if you write your own "version" than they might be more inclined to listen since it's not just one crazy DRK throwing his own logic around.

It'll be two. :3

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Actually its three, and I'd be #1.

Hello #2 and #3, nice to meet you.

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Originally Posted by Dart

couldn't have wrote it better myself (well I could have! but i'm being polite!) mwah ha ha ha ha ha


also dear se,

plz gawd fix our weaponskill damage numbers.

They're pitiful.

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Post it too, god knows I have. Here go look and talk about it there too.


http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...-via-Manifesto

Make a new thread even, then they'll realize that three of us are not crazy, and to stop throwing this sillyness around.

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Originally Posted by Kagato

[SIZE="5"]Dear Dev Room:[/SIZE]

Hello. This is Kagato again. Thought I would share my opinions about the Dark Knight Manifesto.

Ok. DRK is supposed to sacrifice something in order to gain something. Alright. I'll bite.

Sacrificing TP to deal greater damage isn't a very good idea unless the damage boost is high enough to make us not want to bother with Weapon Skills. Otherwise, every DRK in the game is going to ignore this ability. The way we Dark Knights play this game is to get TP as quickly as possible in order to use Guillotine (scythe) or Torcleaver (Great Sword) as often as we can for the highest possible damage per second. The amount of damage we get from this ability needs to compensate for the TP loss. If we ultimately do less damage or an equal amount of damage that we normally would do without this new ability, then there is absolutely no reason to use it. In order for us Dark Knights to want to use this ability, we need to do more damage overall than we used to.

The way we gear ourselves is to pack on the Haste gear and then get as much Store TP as we can to reach 100% TP in the fewest amount of swings, so this includes Store TP gear and having a Samurai Subjob. I don't know how aware the developers are to us playing this way, but it's how we do things in order to keep up with other jobs. With Scythes, the ultimate goal is to get enough TP to use a weaponskill in a minimum of 5 attacks. With Greatswords, it's 6. By lowering or removing TP gain, that strategy goes away. Therefore, we Dark Knights need a reason to want to use an ability that lowers TP gain.


Now then, on to magic.

An ability that increases magic damage and magic weaponskill damage by increasing overall damage taken is only half as good as it sounds. Dark Knights have little need to want to be close to an enemy with terrible defenses in order to use an Elemental Weaponskill (which, by the way, DRKs pretty much never, ever use). That leaves us with increased elemental magic power. Ok, I can see how that could be useful for when melee isn't a good idea. I have been in a few fights where all I could do to help is sit back and cast dark magic...

Wait. Dark magic....

Yeah about that... Dark Knights don't really find any usefulness out of elemental magic spells since we do very little damage with them. So here is my proposal. if you want to give us an ability that increases out elemental magical damage, then that ability needs to make our elemental magic do damage equal to any of the "IV" spells since all we have is "III" spells. If that can be done, then I'm ok with it. If not, then elemental magic is going to continue collecting dust in my magic list.

******************

We try not to think of short-term benefits. We look at long term. We want to have abilities that sacrifices something to gain something else the right way.

Therefore, this is my suggestion:

If I remember correctly, there is an ability in Final Fantasy IX that allows a character to sacrifice MP in order to deal higher melee damage. Perhaps that can be used instead of TP, like a souleater for MP called "Mindeater" or something. Or, sacrificing overall magical ability in order to increase overall physical damage output might be a good idea too.

Vice Versa can be said for Magic. If you still like the idea of TP loss = gain in something, then why not sacrifice melee power for magic power? TP is part of melee, so if you want us to sacrifice TP, have us do so to increase MAGICAL damage. This would give Occult Acumen more use as well since casting magic feeds us a little TP at a time, extending the use of this ability. Perhaps something that increases weapon delay and decreases defense (like in the manifesto) that increases all magic output rather than just elemental. Dark Magic becomes stronger and more potent while elemental magic becomes strong enough to be more viable against monsters of our own level.

With this idea in mind, Dark Knights can continue to sacrifice something in order to gain power elsewhere while also allowing us Dark Knights more versatility in combat since we can pretty much activate "melee mode" or "magic mode." And of course, not using anything makes us well-rounded but not better in either aspect.

*******

So, very long story short, Dark Knights want abilities that are useful overall in the long run. In order to keep Dark Knights happy while still using their "sacrifice something in order to gain something else," the most logical stance is to sacrifice magical ability to increase melee ability and melee ability sacrificed for magical ability.

The current manifesto basically says that we sacrifice melee for melee and defense for magic. It just doesn't seem really logical.

Also, one more thing. It would be nice to give us new Dark Magic spells exclusive to us. Be they new absorb spells or Dark Magic based enfeebles, like Curse or Plague.

Dark Knights want to be versatile in every situation. Maybe not in the same vain as Warriors being able to use any melee weapon they wish and to change between being a tank or a damage dealer with all of their options, but in a way where Dark Knights can aid a battle through melee or magical means.

Having the ability to choose which "battle stance" we want, melee or magic, would give us such versatility.

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Dark Knight having a stance that increases defense and reduces damage taken, while increasing magical damage output, casting speed, and having negatives on melee like increased delay is alright.

On the flipside us having a stance that increases physical damage output while furthering to sacrifice defense would make sense.


But sacrificing defense and taking more damage to deal more TERRIBLE, INEFFICIENT, PANTS-ON-HEAD-RETARDED magical damage? (MOAR DEEPS WITH THEM TIER 3'S YO).




Uh, what?

Come on SE.

I wonder if they think that Dark Knights go around spamming herculean slash, tier III's, and rock sets of full parrying gear, or sub scholar for any team-play abyssea/voidwatch/anythingthatreallymatters, event.




Only in PvP or dicking around in campaign or standing in town, do I sub scholar, and even then the first three items in that list of nonsense never happen.

No offense intended, but you're getting a little overbearing with the whole Drk thing. We get it, you think the job sucks and you want it to be War.

Can we move on?
You've said your piece, they've told you the direction they wish to take the job.

Do you send letters to George Lucas telling him how you think his movies should be? Do you go on forums saying how much their next movie sucks when it hasn't even been released yet?

While your passion for the job can be applauded, it's bordering on insanity. Dark Knight isn't as bad as you think it is. You should know this since you love it to the point of being fanatical. You've done all you can, just relax and hope for the best, while being open-minded to new ideas.

Or.. Play war, since the majority of the "fixes" presented by Drks amount to a relabeled Aggressor, Berserk, Blood Rage, War Cry, etc etc etc...

Or... At the very least, play some of the other content in the game and realize Dark Knight is STILL a powerhouse outside of Abyssea... (Abyssea isn't going to be the last and only content in the game. It's already getting dated with people maxing out on exp/merits/gear/weapons...)

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Originally Posted by Frost

No offense intended, but you're getting a little overbearing with the whole Drk thing. We get it, you think the job sucks and you want it to be War.

Can we move on?
You've said your piece, they've told you the direction they wish to take the job.

Do you send letters to George Lucas telling him how you think his movies should be? Do you go on forums saying how much their next movie sucks when it hasn't even been released yet?

While your passion for the job can be applauded, it's bordering on insanity. Dark Knight isn't as bad as you think it is. You should know this since you love it to the point of being fanatical. You've done all you can, just relax and hope for the best, while being open-minded to new ideas.

Or.. Play war, since the majority of your "fixes" amount to a relabeled Aggressor, Berserk, Blood Rage, War Cry, etc etc etc...

Or... At the very least, play some of the other content in the game and realize Dark Knight is STILL a powerhouse outside of Abyssea... (Abyssea isn't going to be the last and only content in the game. It's already getting dated with people maxing out on exp/merits/gear/weapons...)

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I checked your profile and of course you play SAM and WAR, SE"s 2 favorite DD classes. As for DRK, they have the highest base weapons and the greatest attack, at one point they were supposed to challenge SAM and WAR, but SE fell in love with these magical updates. And fyi, DRK already has their own versions of berserk, aggressor via last resort and diabolic eye. The magic side of DRK has been done to death with the last few updates, they need some straight out crit bonuses and crit weapon skills. No one cares about herculean slash/infernal scythe, unless they buff them to do 3k damage or whatever war's with full perle do on raging rush.

Here is a crazy thought if the Devs want DRKs to cast elemental magic. Have DRKs get elemental spells at the same level as RDMs, this would give DRK up to Blizzard IV now and Thunder IV at 92.

Of course DRKs would still rarely cast elemental magic because you also need gear and an MP pool for that sort of thing; but at least they would have something to cast if they wanted to do that sort of thing.

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Originally Posted by Septimus

Here is a crazy thought if the Devs want DRKs to cast elemental magic. Have DRKs get elemental spells at the same level as RDMs, this would give DRK up to Blizzard IV now and Thunder IV at 92.

Of course DRKs would still rarely cast elemental magic because you also need gear and an MP pool for that sort of thing; but at least they would have something to cast if they wanted to do that sort of thing.

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That is what kills me about the whole magic obsession, does SE not realize DRKs do not have the mp pool to cast a lot of spells. My DRK would have the mp pool to cast 2 tier 4s, and this is with mp merits. Also Occult Acumen should have been a straight 20 tp/spell, not this 2 tp garbage they saddled DRKS with. I don't understand why SE repeatedly overpowers SAM and WAR yet is so afraid of jobs like DRK and THF.

Your argument is a Red Herring. Just because I leveled Sam and/or War doesn't mean I necessarily bias towards them. I play Thief, Blu, and Nin more often, due to their usefulness in todays current events, doesn't mean I don't like my other jobs, or that I even like Nin, Thief or War. And just because I used them for comparison, doesn't imply I like them less either.

What I do like is Variety...

And it looks like SE is really trying to sculpt Dark Knight away from the homogeneous blob of "Melee DD"; and I respect that. I look forward to whatever they are adding to the job, because frankly I enjoy it as is, and new dynamics to the job are always interesting, and welcome.

I just read these posts, and the frequency and amplitude of the rage they present, laced with a heavy dose of defeatist rhetoric is nauseating... In the same breath a Drk screams "If only, just make Last Resort last as long as Berserk" the cry that it's not enough. I'm sorry, I just don't see the job as weakly as other Darks do. I always welcome a skilled Drk into my events, and I personally find no shortage of invites for my Drk either.

It's just a different playstyle. If you're not amused with it, try another job.

I don't play Drk and I don't even like the job.
But its update have been clearly pathetic lately. And it's not going any better.
The atk+ with self-plague looks so stupid, and lol elemental ws <_<
And as many have said before, it's useless to nuke without even a tier of mab(and I doubt drks like to sub rdm for that, I think they like sam much more).

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Originally Posted by Siiri

[...] I don't understand why SE repeatedly overpowers SAM and WAR yet is so afraid of jobs like DRK and THF.

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Wut?

Thief is awesome. Idk why you could think it to be underpowered or neglected by SE at all in SE's history.

-Gave them a 20% - 33% increase in the base damage of daggers.
-Gave Trick Attack forced Crit.
- TH III
- Treassur Hunter "Debuff" that you can see level up.
- Despoil (I know... odd, but it's still SOMETHING)
- Accomplice, and when that wasn't enough: Collaborator.
- MASSIVE evasion, then MORE evasion.
- Easily Capped Haste on gear.
- Conspirator.
- Pretty solid, decent Merit abilities.
- Guaranteed party inclusion.
- 5-Hit Crit Weaponskill Based on Dex...(Cont...)
- - An Atma in the new content that is 50 Dex, 30% Crit Rate, & 30% Crit Damage that's for a job that's two main abilities, one Dex based, are Crits and a Weaponskill that's a 5-Hit Crit Weaponskill one that's heavily based on Dex....

There's more I'm sure, but that's just a few moments thinking about it.
As a thief I've been able to duo anythign with a Whm that a Mnk+Whm combo has been able to do, and have TH; as an added bonus, I've been able to duo exponentially more outside of Abyssea, and through the years.

Thief is not a weak job... And it's Far from neglected, as you've implied.

Oh Frost...you're so out of this world...

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Originally Posted by Frost

Wut?

Thief is awesome. Idk why you could think it to be underpowered or neglected by SE at all in SE's history.

There's more I'm sure, but that's just a few moments thinking about it.
As a thief I've been able to duo anythign with a Whm that a Mnk+Whm combo has been able to do, and have TH; as an added bonus, I've been able to duo exponentially more outside of Abyssea, and through the years.

Thief is not a weak job... And it's Far from neglected, as you've implied.

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I was mostly referring to the SE update note in the forums that putting steal and aura steal on the same timer would be overpowered, when they told the SAMs that all their job abilities would be on seperate timers. That seems really off to me. Sorry I was unclear. DRK is just a mess of bad updates though. Absorb-tp was nerfed and then unnerfed by Bale Gauntlets +2, what other job had an ability nerfed just to get it back with AF+3? Crazy! What are they so afraid of?

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Originally Posted by Siiri

I was mostly referring to the SE update note in the forums that putting steal and aura steal on the same timer would be overpowered, when they told the SAMs that all their job abilities would be on seperate timers. That seems really off to me. Sorry I was unclear. DRK is just a mess of bad updates though. Absorb-tp was nerfed and then unnerfed by Bale Gauntlets +2, what other job had an ability nerfed just to get it back with AF+3? Crazy! What are they so afraid of?

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Fair Enough. Just looked like a head scratcher at first glance lol.

Funny you shoudl mention the Ab-TP thing though. Got in an agrument about "How useless Ab-TP is, because you could get more TP from swinging your weapon." While true, it also niglects the other role of Ab-TP... Removing TP from the monster... (Only stating that to illustrate point: People dont' see the whole picture.)

I guess what I am saying, in a more non-combative way, is that, to me dark is already powerful. The updates may be a little wierd, like putting a spoiler on a minivan... But when you got something that already works for the most part, and it has a theme, and that theme has been ignored in lieu of design simplicity; why not go back to fortify that theme... Would it kill the people to respect that? Drk is a Warrior that uses Dark Magic, and the magic aspect has been ignored by the player base. They're trying to make that defining aspect of the job stronger, more relevant, while retaining the already powerful job that, short of a crit weaponskill that's only really relevant in one arena, is still extremely viable.

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Originally Posted by Frost

Fair Enough. Just looked like a head scratcher at first glance lol.

Funny you shoudl mention the Ab-TP thing though. Got in an agrument about "How useless Ab-TP is, because you could get more TP from swinging your weapon." While true, it also niglects the other role of Ab-TP... Removing TP from the monster... (Only stating that to illustrate point: People dont' see the whole picture.)

I guess what I am saying, in a more non-combative way, is that, to me dark is already powerful. The updates may be a little wierd, like putting a spoiler on a minivan... But when you got something at already works for the most part, and it has a theme, and that theme has been ignored in lieu of design simplicity. They seem to be going back to fortify that theme... Would it kill the people to respect that? Drk is a Warrior that uses Dark Magic, and the magic aspect has been ignored by the player base. They're trying to make that defining aspect of the job stronger, more relevant, while retaining the already powerful job, that short of a crit weaponskill that's only really relevant in one arena, is still extremely viable, potent?

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Absorb-tp is awesome, we have a great Drk who even goes to abyssea a lot on drk and can absorb 80 tp often off +2 mobs. I don't disagree with improving the magic side per se, they just always go about it so weirdly. Adding additional absorb spells, removing the decay off them, cutting casting time and recast on Dread Spikes and Absorb spells, cutting recast on Drains, adding another Stun (Blue Mage has 3 i believe?) maybe adding new spells that are mentioned repeatedly in the Drk forums are all ways to improve the magic side. Occult acumen? Not so much. Improve elemental weaponskills? They do like 450 damage for infernal scythe and 650 maybe for Herculean, exactly how much are they going to improve them? Triple, quadruple? Anything less what would be the point? That is my issues.

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Originally Posted by Siiri

Absorb-tp is awesome, we have a great Drk who even goes to abyssea a lot on drk and can absorb 80 tp often off +2 mobs. I don't disagree with improving the magic side per se, they just always go about it so weirdly. Adding additional absorb spells, removing the decay off them, cutting casting time and recast on Dread Spikes and Absorb spells, cutting recast on Drains, adding another Stun (Blue Mage has 3 i believe?) maybe adding new spells that are mentioned repeatedly in the Drk forums are all ways to improve the magic side. Occult acumen? Not so much. Improve elemental weaponskills? They do like 450 damage for infernal scythe and 650 maybe for Herculean, exactly how much are they going to improve them? Triple, quadruple? Anything less what would be the point? That is my issues.

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The Ab-X Spells will come in time, they need to be spread out. We usually get a few each update, so I got no doubt we will get more. The obvious ones probably being Absorb Attack, maybe Absorb Speed, but whatever, we got 9 more levels to go and about 5 more stats we could tap. It's almost guaranteed we'll get at least 6 more spells.

On that note, I bet a dozen donuts that "The Merit Rework" they keep hinting at includes getting rid of Bio III on Rdm and replacing it with something different, or more potent (Bio IV?) and letting Blms and Drks have Bio III. I assume this because I don't think SE actually intended the content to go past 75; there's evidence of that all over the place, and even more evidence they're gearing up to do a cleanup of sorts. Another example would be Protectra/Shellra VI. It would be really stupid to have Protectra/Shellra V merited and have a scroll for VI, right? And it's pretty safe to assume they will add at least Protect/Shell VI at some point...

To your other comment:
IN ABYSSEA... I actually am surprised at how well Infernal does, and it doesn't take much to bump up its damage. If you're using regular WS gear, then yeah, it will do crap damage...

Outside I can't really speak for it, considering Liberator/Guillotine do fine.

In short, people are just being too impatient and short sighted. Granted, the "old SE" wasn't the best at making sense... But the current crew seems to 'get it' to an extent. Now it's our turn. Have a little faith.

DEEEEVS!!!
The lv cap increase is close, give us more info!!! RIGHT NOW!!! *throws a slipper at the team*

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Originally Posted by Siiri

Scholars won't be happy until they put white mages and black mages out of business. No concern ever for balance from that job's player base, especially considering how horribly overpowered scholar was at 75.

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I remember when you people called us Gimped RDMs then we came in strong and bitch slapped all of you so badly you cried to daddy SE to make your jobs better.

Good times.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

I remember when you people called us Gimped RDMs then we came in strong and bitch slapped all of you so badly you cried to daddy SE to make your jobs better.

Good times.

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After scholars cried for months just like they are now that they are underpowered? editing some of this out, I wrote in anger at her reply. Suffice to say, Elexia's quote is why scholars have been a very hated job by a lot of other mages. So many of them seem to want only to bury other mages instead of co-existing in a balance.

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Also Occult Acumen should have been a straight 20 tp/spell, not this 2 tp garbage they saddled DRKS with.

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Occult Acumen should have been "Spell casting does not interrupt melee attacks", with gear enhancing it and further traits offering the TP bonus, or make it something like "Occult Acumen: 25% attack speed while casting elemental magic" all the way up to IV which would give you normal attack speed while casting, with gear enhancing it increasing your attack speed while casting elemental magic, giving a reason to cast if not for the nuking damage alone. However I'm guessing FFXI game mechanics don't allow for something like that.

As it is, Dark Knight is probably never going to be a melee/mage hybrid like it's meant to be, they'd be better off making it a pet job at this stage. Take Dragoon as an example, assuming its wyvern isn't dying or dead (herp), they can toss out 100~400 damage elemental breaths every weapon skill and every one minute. Free of charge and with little to no effect on regular melee routine. That a much better system of dealing magic damage that what Dark Knight has currently, which is both lengthy in cast time and completely unsustainable due to its MP pool.
Though rather than making Dark Knight a pet job, it would probably be a lot more sensible to just give it a Seigan/Third Eye and Hasso style stance. The Hasso would enhance either regular melee attacks or a significant boost to dark magic spells and the Third Eye would effectively be Chainspell for a single elemental magic spell. Seigan enhancing that to make spells cost HP instead of MP and allow Third Eye to last multiple nukes. I'd be incline to make Hasso enhance dark magic, since it would provide a boost to Drain which would in tern benefit Seigan since that effectively converts your HP into MP. That would remove the lengthy cast time for casting nukes on Dark Knight while providing the benefit of added damage while also providing a bigger MP pool with which to cast from. There'd still be the issue of magic damage, but as it is it would be extra damage regardless so I doubt that would need addressing.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

I remember when you people called us Gimped RDMs then we came in strong and bitch slapped all of you so badly you cried to daddy SE to make your jobs better.

Good times.

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That's pretty funny considering the only two jobs less popular than Sch are COR and PUP.

Good times indeed.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

That's pretty funny considering the only two jobs less popular than Sch are COR and PUP.

Good times indeed.

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That's what happens when you give a job 90% of two different jobs abilities, then bump those jobs up to 150%

SCH was a great job, until WHM became God mode (which they've been needing for a while, I'll admit) and BLM became the crowned prince of Yellow Proc. SCH is -still- a good job, but as I said before, why take a pistol when you can take a cannon? Why take a medical intern when you can take an award winning doctor? SCH's far from a "gimp RDM" -- They are too unrelated to even be comparable to one another and the shallow association "because they both can cast White and Black Magic, derp!" is beneath you. The jobs are completely different.

All of that aside, SCH is unpopular now because most career SCHs were BLMs or WHMs before the jobs release and gravitated to SCH because they finally had a mage job that could get consistent invites -- now they've moved back to their original jobs because both of them are distinctly more powerful and useful in Abyssea -- also known as the only thing anyone does in FFXI anymore.

Don't even pretend like it wouldn't be the exact same scenario for RDM if it didn't have its own unique options and uses -- a luxury SCH doesn't really have.

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Originally Posted by Siiri

After scholars cried for months just like they are now that they are underpowered? editing some of this out, I wrote in anger at her reply. Suffice to say, Elexia's quote is why scholars have been a very hated job by a lot of other mages. So many of them seem to want only to bury other mages instead of co-existing in a balance.

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How is that any different from -anyone- else in the forum?

Every thread I see is full of people clamoring to make their job the end-all, be-all of the game -- and that's exactly why no one ever gets what they want.

No one has any respect for balance or continuity -- the moment you talk about balance to BLMs they berate you for wanting SCH to be the greatest job ever even if all you want is for the job to have -something- useful to offer. You talk about balance to WHMs and they carry on about how they spent so much time underpowered -- which wasn't fair, but honestly, powering up a job by underpowering other jobs isn't the way to fix it.

Melees do the same exactly thing -- everyone here is carrying on about how they want their job to be god mode. The stupid thing is that everyone justifies this by saying everyone else wants to be God mode too, and then acting surprised and outraged when none of us get anything of any quality or use because the feedback channels are clogged with nonsense...

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Originally Posted by Frost

No offense intended, but you're getting a little overbearing with the whole Drk thing. We get it, you think the job sucks and you want it to be War.

Can we move on?
You've said your piece, they've told you the direction they wish to take the job.

Do you send letters to George Lucas telling him how you think his movies should be? Do you go on forums saying how much their next movie sucks when it hasn't even been released yet?

While your passion for the job can be applauded, it's bordering on insanity. Dark Knight isn't as bad as you think it is. You should know this since you love it to the point of being fanatical. You've done all you can, just relax and hope for the best, while being open-minded to new ideas.

Or.. Play war, since the majority of the "fixes" presented by Drks amount to a relabeled Aggressor, Berserk, Blood Rage, War Cry, etc etc etc...

Or... At the very least, play some of the other content in the game and realize Dark Knight is STILL a powerhouse outside of Abyssea... (Abyssea isn't going to be the last and only content in the game. It's already getting dated with people maxing out on exp/merits/gear/weapons...)

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Variety is fine, but you play Samurai and Warrior, the spot in variety you occupy is currently not crap.


I'd send letters and flares, and smoke signals in the sky.

George Lucas needs his smug ass face slapped too.

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Originally Posted by Frost

Drk is a Warrior that uses Dark Magic, and the magic aspect has been ignored by the player base.

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Wow frost your ignorance is unbelievable. DRK's magic focus is like you said at first, dark magic, the update is for what? Elemental magic, which is a side effect of having arcane ties, DRK was never meant to have nukes above t2 and our mp pool can't support the thought of casting these t3's enough to make a magical buff worthwhile. Now if they were to offer us anything in the dark magic dept then you'd have a point but they didn't. Also DRK was always intended to be super hard hitting dd with no natural def, IE its a mirror of pld the Ultimate shield, thus DRK is the ultimate blade. War was intended to be the melee jack of all trades, but then SE decided to move forward with buffing its damage and just never stopped. DRKs lack of casting isn't the playerbases fault, its SE's. Our "nukes" deal way too low damage for the mp consumption, and our dark magic spells are ineffective (non stackable) with cruor buffs (not to mention the horribly fast decay). If SE would fix our dark magic spells as we have suggested time after time after time, then we would use them more. As I had the same argument with Leonlionheart, I'll inform you that I personally don't like war and there are others that dislike the job as well, so why should we have to go to a job we don't like when we like DRK? Point being that SE keeps mentioning balance and opened these forums for us to tell them our thoughts and discuss ways of improving the jobs to them, and you say why are all these people complaining when they should just play another job or hope SE does something to fix it. Well you can sit there and hope, I'm gonna give SE a piece of my mind and encourage others to do the same, and if you don't like it you can exit the conversation at any time.

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Originally Posted by Seha

DEEEEVS!!!
The lv cap increase is close, give us more info!!! RIGHT NOW!!! *throws a slipper at the team*

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Only if the end of september is close!!! ; ;

Scholar - Part 3!

Here is yet another follow-up to all of your feedback related to scholar. :)
(Judging from the last rep post, it seems I angered Bayohne. Thankfully he is not here to punish me. Tomorrow is another day though... ><)

Magic

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Make it possible to use Cure V.

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In regards to support capability, we’re thinking more in the direction of adjustments that will differ from white mage.

Instead of just simply adding a high-tier Cure, we’re looking into making it so scholars can raise their performance further by enhancing the effects of stratagem use and regen-type magic. However, this doesn’t mean that we won’t be adding a high-tier Cure later down the line.

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Make it so Reraise can be cast on other party members via AoE spell casting.

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While this isn’t impossible, we would need to change the magic rules and it would take some time to do so. Additionally, we would need to consider the fact that other jobs would then be able to do this as well and adjustments would be necessary.

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Add a spell that enhances the rate of magic criticals.

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We would like to look into adding an effect to storm spells so that the magic critical rate will increase for the respective element when you are under their effects.

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Add spells that decrease an enemy’s evasion and TP gain.

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We are planning to add a higher tier Gravity as a spell to reduce an enemy’s evasion. We will also be looking into spells that give the effect of subtle blow.

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Add spells that increase WS damage.

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Though careful adjustments are necessary in regards to balance, we would like to look into this.

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Similar to “Decoy” from FFXII, add a buff that turns you into a decoy and eliminates the effect when an enemy casts Dispel on you.

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Balance wise, there is a chance this is possible if it only covers a single enhancement effect. It would probably have a weak effect against special abilities that remove multiple enhancement effects at once. In the case that this were made into an ability, when considering the stats, the recast timer would probably be quite long.

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Add sphere-type spells.

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For sphere effects, there would be no way of handling the opposite enfeebling effects, such as Slow versus Haste effects. This makes it an extremely powerful spell, so from a balance perspective it will not be easy to do.

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Add a spell that makes it so a player’s pet can intimidate a monster.

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This is something that seems like it would be better suited to explore with pet jobs than scholar.

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Add powerful spells and abilities that can only be used by scholar.

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You all have been posting a ton of ideas about this!

We are currently looking over all of them and considering each and every one. Please give us a bit of time so we can work on some plans.

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Originally Posted by Camate

In regards to support capability, we’re thinking more in the direction of adjustments that will differ from white mage.

Instead of just simply adding a high-tier Cure, we’re looking into making it so scholars can raise their performance further by enhancing the effects of stratagem use and regen-type magic. However, this doesn’t mean that we won’t be adding a high-tier Cure later down the line.

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Tank: I'm in the red! Medic!
SCH: I got this. (casts regen-type spell)
Tank: What was that?
SCH: Don't worry, you'll be good as new in five minutes.
*tank dies*

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While this isn’t impossible, we would need to change the magic rules and it would take some time to do so. Additionally, we would need to consider the fact that other jobs would then be able to do this as well and adjustments would be necessary.

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Giving WHM AoE RR3 would be a pleasant side effect. I say do it.

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We would like to look into adding an effect to storm spells so that the magic critical rate will increase for the respective element when you are under their effects.

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Nice, I guess, but Magic Crit never really impressed me because of the randomness.

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We are planning to add a higher tier Gravity as a spell to reduce an enemy’s evasion. We will also be looking into spells that give the effect of subtle blow.

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Gravity II and Auspice II? Surely you're not giving those to SCH?

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{Spell that increases WS damage}
Though careful adjustments are necessary in regards to balance, we would like to look into this.

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Not sure what the point is really, though I guess it kinda fits with Immanence.

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{Decoy}
Balance wise, there is a chance this is possible if it only covers a single enhancement effect. It would probably have a weak effect against special abilities that remove multiple enhancement effects at once. In the case that this were made into an ability, when considering the stats, the recast timer would probably be quite long.

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Don't think I understood this, are they asking about a buff that protects your other buffs from dispel? Sounds neat but situational.

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For sphere effects, there would be no way of handling the opposite enfeebling effects, such as Slow versus Haste effects. This makes it an extremely powerful spell, so from a balance perspective it will not be easy to do.

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Who the hell is asking for Sphere effects? And why isn't Sphere: haste exactly the same as regular haste?

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{Pet stuff}
This is something that seems like it would be better suited to explore with pet jobs than scholar.

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/facepalm

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{SCH specific spells}
You all have been posting a ton of ideas about this!

We are currently looking over all of them and considering each and every one. Please give us a bit of time so we can work on some plans.

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First time for everything I guess.

I hear being a dick to the messenger always helps and makes them feel good.

You people have gotten 3 different updates, Visit other jobs forums who have gotten 0 and then come back and complain.

Some of the questions are derp but at least you're getting answers.

I'd have to agree with the Scholars who think they should be the ones getting Ultima considering its non-elemental nature. Even if it has a huge recast, you need to put Ultima in this game. It's mandatory to meet the credentials of a true FF game.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

I hear being a dick to the messenger always helps and makes them feel good.

You people have gotten 3 different updates, Visit other jobs forums who have gotten 0 and then come back and complain.

Some of the questions are derp but at least you're getting answers.

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Seriously, can any other job get some answers? It's been all scholar all the time. Not the community reps causing this, they just reporting what they given. We are in serious need of other updates though besides scholar.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

I hear being a dick to the messenger always helps and makes them feel good.

You people have gotten 3 different updates, Visit other jobs forums who have gotten 0 and then come back and complain.

Some of the questions are derp but at least you're getting answers.

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Getting responses to derp questions doesn't really help us out.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

I hear being a dick to the messenger always helps and makes them feel good.

You people have gotten 3 different updates, Visit other jobs forums who have gotten 0 and then come back and complain.

Some of the questions are derp but at least you're getting answers.

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I wasnt being a dick to the messenger, I was critiquing the questions and answers. Where do you see me "Being a dick to the messengers"?


I assume the other jobs Q&A are cooking, but since I don't have any control over which question gets answered I can only respond to what's been released.

Like I said in the other thread, It's not my fault they wasted 3 posts worth of questions when they really only needed half of one.

<_< hope they actually take my idea on SCH into account it would actually give them unique support abilities that WHM and BLM don't have but I guess we'll wait and see what they decide to do with SCH lol. A 3 parter with SCH though honestly nothing really caught my eye overall with what they said, if they gave us more examples as to SCH specific spells that aren't 2hr related then perhaps they would've been more informative, but it does feel more like a wait and see response to each question lol.

Though I do agree I don't see SCH getting Cure V since WHM V VI is what makes them unique, you have to off-set unique abilities in certain ways.

SCH Idea

I wasn't going to post the above link however I do wonder if they actually looked at it. IMO I think this would support "In regards to support capability, we’re thinking more in the direction of adjustments that will differ from white mage."

The basic premise behind this idea is the ability to cast spells that can turn enfeebles into status enhancements as well as grant immunity to said enfeeble til the spell wears off. The limit is basically you can only have one type of this enhancement up at a time so you can't be hit with Bad Breath and have a SCH cast all the "backfire" spells on you to pump up your capabilities.

Then on the Flip-side with Elemental magic I figured why not create a unique shield that can absorb a specific magic type of damage. Basically you use a strategm that turns your next elemental spell into a player target which "hits" them and the damage that it would've been is now the elemental magic shield you have. The limit with that is you can only have 1 magic shield active at a time so it would mainly be useful against mobs that stick with one elemental magic rather then those that use multiple elements.

But ya, I hope they give us an actual taste of spells that they have in mind cause it is true,if you just improve regen it really won't do much for SCH unless you can buff it up to actually be viable in an HNM situation.

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Originally Posted by Raksha

I wasnt being a dick to the messenger, I was critiquing the questions and answers. Where do you see me "Being a dick to the messengers"?

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This part just seemed like you were implying they never ever give our responses to the devs:

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First time for everything I guess.

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In response to them "giving all the feedback" to the team. I could be reading you wrong, But it sounded like you accusing them of not doing their job. which is kinda being a dick, considering everything they do for us.

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Originally Posted by Tarumage

Getting responses to derp questions doesn't really help us out.

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Like 2-3 of them were derp, out of about 20? Thats a good ratio considering the 0/0 that jobs like PLD, BRD, and WHM (to name a few) have gotten.... A lot of those questions hinted at new abilities/spells SCH would get...

I thought the info was good... left room to speculate but provided a lot.

not saying you can't facepalm about some of the very derp questions (Like say, RNG got one saying "I want 100% Rapid shot" which was WTF), just the comment i quoted above, if im reading it was, was incredibly unnecessary.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

This part just seemed like you were implying they never ever give our responses to the devs:



In response to them "giving all the feedback" to the team. I could be reading you wrong, But it sounded like you accusing them of not doing their job.

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No, I was saying it's nice that the dev team is finally considering our suggestions, not that the mods weren't doing their jobs. I <3 the mods.

And seriously, maybe 5 of the questions over all 3 posts were things which people have actually wanted responses to.

I'll be the first person to say that SCH isn't all that bad off. And that PLD and others need way more work than we do.

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Originally Posted by Raksha

No, I was saying it's nice that the dev team is finally considering our suggestions, not that the mods weren't doing their jobs. I <3 the mods.

And seriously, maybe 5 of the questions over all 3 posts were things which I have actually wanted responses to.

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I fixed the last part for you... They got the questions from somewhere so someone wanted them answered... If anyones to blame its the other languages/threads/forum-sections where they got these incredibly derp-rated questions from.

Either way, If thats the case, Obviously i retract my statement, When i read that last past it sounded like you were saying what i explained above.

I just see a lot of pointless bashing of Community reps around here, and that last one seemed off. Nothing more, continue your business then!