[Discussion] The Pugilist of the Future!

WELCOME! To the Pugilist of Tomorrow!

I'm starting this thread for Pugilist enthusiasts to discuss the class as it is currently and what we hope to see it evolve into in the future. It is also a good place for us to discuss possible suggestions that we can make to SE developers in an effort to provide them with feedback for class development.

I will guide the discussion by posting some question, which I will keep updated here in the first post.

Here are my initial questions and some of my opinions:

1. What roles do Pugilists currently fill in party play?

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Main/Off Tank:

I think that PUGs only fill the role of main tank in a pinch as MRD and GLD are better main tanks. PUGs do make pretty proficient off tanks, either when there is trouble with the main holding Aggro or taking aggro from less durable party members or when provoking adds that aggro to the group.

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Damage Dealer:

Though not as effective as an ARC or LNC, PUGs can deal some damage. I think that they may need some buffs in this area however, or some abilities that will seperate them from the pack.

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Problems:

I think the biggest problem on PUG is that they are good at this and that, but not outstanding at anything particular.

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2. Do PGL do enough damage?

I always thought that PGL were good DD tanks. We do have second wind which allows us to stay alive longer when tanking, and some of our big WS's are dependent on evasion which helps us keep hate while tanking also. I really like the class, but I'm kinda biased since my next highest fighting job is 33. I would say pugilist is one of the most well rounded jobs.

an example of this is the other day I ran up to the devlitt NM in Muy Tuy and a R50 lancer was attempting a solo. He had a hauby +2 and all other +1 or +2 gear and he wiped. I finished him up, and then solo'd him again for good measure as a pugilist with no problems.

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Originally Posted by Bigglesworth

I always thought that PGL were good DD tanks. We do have second wind which allows us to stay alive longer when tanking, and some of our big WS's are dependent on evasion which helps us keep hate while tanking also. I really like the class, but I'm kinda biased since my next highest fighting job is 33. I would say pugilist is one of the most well rounded jobs.

an example of this is the other day I ran up to the devlitt NM in Muy Tuy and a R50 lancer was attempting a solo. He had a hauby +2 and all other +1 or +2 gear and he wiped. I finished him up, and then solo'd him again for good measure as a pugilist with no problems.

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I agree with you in that we are well rounded. The only possible problem I see with that, is that being so well rounded are we very desirable in a group? When you have the choice between a MRD/GLD as a tank and an ARC/LNC DD, are Pugs going to be left out in the cold? Can we compete with other tanks for Hate? Can we compete with other DDs in terms of damage done?

I don't have any details on these questions. I know there is a parser out there that will record some of the Data and I may do some experiments to see if I can hold hate over another tank.

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

I agree with you in that we are well rounded. The only possible problem I see with that, is that being so well rounded are we very desirable in a group? When you have the choice between a MRD/GLD as a tank and an ARC/LNC DD, are Pugs going to be left out in the cold? Can we compete with other tanks for Hate? Can we compete with other DDs in terms of damage done?

I don't have any details on these questions. I know there is a parser out there that will record some of the Data and I may do some experiments to see if I can hold hate over another tank.

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All good questions, and the answer becomes more muddles in that all the classes in 14 are thrown in a mixed together. For example for the tanks, do they have Emulate (THM) for the tough NM's? For the ARC/LNC do they have all the pre-WS buffs to camp their spike damage? Are your DD using battle regimens appropriately?

I don't think jobs are discriminated against in the same way they were in 11 when you were forming parties.

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

Can we compete with other tanks for Hate?

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The answer is Yes!
Pugilists strongest tanking ability is it's hate.
Rips hate off Gladiators equiped with intimidation and aeolion scimitar just by hitting. (with no enmity modifier)
Easily hold hate off of archers.
The only class it sometimes struggles to hold hate off of is mages because of the enmity of dots. (accomplice, taunt, and intimidation, these solve that problem)

Yeah, only time I've had hate issues is when the THM was using Accomplice on me. I often find I can move ahead a minion or so on NM fights, because there's no way the party's gonna take hate, even off of the one they've been beating the stuffing out of. Of course, I think my tanking method would work fine for getting aggro on any of the current DOW/DOM classes, so. . .

Yeah But I didn't pick pugilist cause I wanted to play as Tank (maybe blink tank, but only under conditions).
I was a Monk player in FF11 and I wanted a Monk in this game too, so what should they do IMO is to separate the thief abilities from the Monk abilities on this class.
Pugilist should be strong DD with emphasis on fast DOT damage (spike damage is for other classes), should have many HP but less armor.
I am sure that when the auto attack comes in, we will notice a real difference on the speed that some classes deal damage and I hope that pugilist is gonna be among the fast ones.
After that, give him some kick animations and a 2hour ability that beats the crap out of the target like 100fists and Ill have the class that I enjoy playing again :P

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Originally Posted by Meleena

Yeah But I didn't pick pugilist cause I wanted to play as Tank (maybe blink tank, but only under conditions).
I was a Monk player in FF11 and I wanted a Monk in this game too, so what should they do IMO is to separate the thief abilities from the Monk abilities on this class.
Pugilist should be strong DD with emphasis on fast DOT damage (spike damage is for other classes), should have many HP but less armor.
I am sure that when the auto attack comes in, we will notice a real difference on the speed that some classes deal damage and I hope that pugilist is gonna be among the fast ones.
After that, give him some kick animations and a 2hour ability that beats the crap out of the target like 100fists and Ill have the class that I enjoy playing again :P

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Since SE is planning to, make classes more role specific, and planning to add jobs as well (granted nothing has been said beyond this), I think we should wait a bit before we start going on rants about how pugilist isn't monk. I played monk as well, and really enjoyed the job. Would I like asuran fists? hell ya! Would I like to see something like 2hr abilities? for sure and not just for pug. Would I like to see pug be a faster attacker? you bet. But for now too many things are up in the air to even start making suggestions. I think after the dungeons patch we might have a clearer idea of where SE is heading and be more able to help guide those ideas.

I am not ranting, I like Pugilist, I just don't want him to end up a secondary Tank, I wouldnt want that, I like him cause I like the martial art aspect of the class, so I want to at least see him hit hard and fast :P

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Originally Posted by Akuun

Since SE is planning to, make classes more role specific, and planning to add jobs as well (granted nothing has been said beyond this), I think we should wait a bit before we start going on rants about how pugilist isn't monk. I played monk as well, and really enjoyed the job. Would I like asuran fists? hell ya! Would I like to see something like 2hr abilities? for sure and not just for pug. Would I like to see pug be a faster attacker? you bet. But for now too many things are up in the air to even start making suggestions. I think after the dungeons patch we might have a clearer idea of where SE is heading and be more able to help guide those ideas.

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I disagree here. First, I don't think anyone in here is 'ranting' per se, and I did set this thread up to see what PUG players thought of the class. If a suggestion needs to be made, now is the time to do it before the job system is set in its way and harder to change. As a community we need to make sure that SE hears what we want and what we don't like so they can account for that in the planning phase because by the time they reach the point where they are releasing information and coding the changes, it may be too late.

From what I have seen so far, PUGs make pretty good tanks. Maybe 'too' good. Is there an advantage in going with a MRD or GLD tank over a PGL? I think that PGL may be lacking in the AOE tanking area, but that is good. PGL should be good one on one fighters, better than keeping the attention of a whole group of enemies.

Lets turn our attention to DD. Do PGL do enough damage?

Personally what I would like to see is a range of abilities that would let players focus their skill set on what they enjoy more. If you enjoy being a tank, then you could set up your skill bar for tanking and your stats (once they are fixed of course) would reflect that by being higher in CON and DEX for more HP and more EVA. If you wanted to be a better DD, then you could spec yourself for that class with higher STR and DEX for dealing more damage and more specific skills.

The problem I have is that the game as it is doesn't give you any hard choices. I can fill my bar with every 'useful' PGL skill and still have plenty of room to fill it with any other skill I could want. Evasion Up (THM) sure why not. Cure? Hells yeah! Sacrifice too! Plus Raging Strike, Defender, Rampart, Provoke, ect, ect! I love having the freedom of choice, but it lacks any real strategy when allocating skill points and setting my abilities.

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Originally Posted by Akuun

I think we should wait a bit before we start going on rants about how pugilist isn't monk.

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I just want to clear things up as people seem to be misunderstanding what I said.
I didn't say that anyone is ranting, I also didn't point at any particular person.
I also said it with tense on the future, not past tense.

Now that that is out of the way.

With the stated party setup (according to Yoshi-P)
Light party (4)
Tank x1
Healer x1
DPS x2

Full party (8)
Tank x2
Healer x1
DPS x4
Support x1

Looking at this, and that there are currently 7 classes, 3 of which are designed to tank. (pug, gld, mdr)
It's likely that pugilist will be the class to be removed from this group due to gladiator and marauder already having aoe abilities for tanking.

The biggest problem with trying to make suggestions is we really have no foundation of what pugilist or any other class is headed. The sky could be the limit.
If we simply want pugilist to be a clone of monk then how do you define monk? I know that question sounds silly, but from what I've been hearing from people still playing FFXI monk has become a DPS Tank.

I don't think that pugilist is so great a tank that it can't be a solid sustained DPS. As far as whether you are DPS or Tank, I feel should be based on gear and stat points. (since SE seems to be keeping the stat system)

As things are right now Pugilist is VERY effective tank, on the other hand he is not as good as a DD as he should be compared to other classes.
Pugilist was intended to be a mix of the job Monk and the job Thief, but the sad part is that he is not dealing damage as fast as Monk (that will propably change when auto attack comes) and he is not able to deal big enough damage by utilising the "back attacks" (Sneak Attack - Trick Attack) that Thief had.
On top of that we dont even get to use Steal or Tresure Hunter...
So either we are Tanks who have trouble to Tank groups, or we are so-so DDs atm.

I'd like to focus on Damage Dealing my self I always enjoyed that, and if we manage to get some good evasive abilities VS 1 target (blink tank) I wouldn't say no either.

Pugilist seems like a good DD to me, and with flurry he has a pretty awesome speed, i dont think lancer beats us single target.
I think pugilist should have better damage on single target mobs than they do now, especially with the game probably shifting focus to party vs party. then the advantage of marauder and lancer is really going to grow.
Pug should be able to shift from heavy DD to Strong tank, versus a single monster, much like their original plan, the pugilist should be the class that can go heavy attack, and have more options for doing that, or heavy defense and have more options.
light strike/ with on evade skills and heavy with flurry are the start of this, but it needs more, maybe some more offensive combos, like skills that can only follow a flurry, or a critical hit, for large damage. Defensively, maybe some more buffs that work from the light flurry buff, or things that increase stats, or something on evasion.

I think the biggest thing hurting pugilist on the DD side is due mostly to all the mechanics they either didn't finish or left out.

Asuran fists
Shoulder tackle
Couerl step
Steal
Stances (defensive to aggressive)

Wait, we have issues AOE tanking? >_>

I think it would make a lot of difference if our feather foot 2 gave us two shadows (and was pug exclusive). I can tank anything in the game that doesn't have multiple enemies (such as the Gob NM and the such). Perhaps add in a skill that is a defense stance that parrys (but you can still attack from) an attack like mrds foresight but automatically attacks when activated costing no stamina.

Although we gt a huge amount of HP back from our second wind move, we can't match the GLDs shield skill Vs multiple enemies. Maybe add in a small leech type move like lnc has and thats all we could possibly need to become completely effective tanks vs multiple targets.

As for DD - I think we do pretty good. I suppose we could do better but if we were too good, mixed with being better tanks we could become OP. I'd be happy with better looking animations with the same DD but a notch up in survivability.

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Originally Posted by Meleena

As things are right now Pugilist is VERY effective tank, on the other hand he is not as good as a DD as he should be compared to other classes.
Pugilist was intended to be a mix of the job Monk and the job Thief, but the sad part is that he is not dealing damage as fast as Monk (that will propably change when auto attack comes) and he is not able to deal big enough damage by utilising the "back attacks" (Sneak Attack - Trick Attack) that Thief had.
On top of that we dont even get to use Steal or Tresure Hunter...
So either we are Tanks who have trouble to Tank groups, or we are so-so DDs atm.

I'd like to focus on Damage Dealing my self I always enjoyed that, and if we manage to get some good evasive abilities VS 1 target (blink tank) I wouldn't say no either.

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Not to completely derail this topic, but I too would much rather see Pugilist become more of a MNK DD'ing class so long as they strip all the THF abilities from PUG, LNC, and MRD to make it its own class ><; Oh please god, please let me be done with this class! Let the people who just want to punch things be good at it! lol

Bump - this is an interesting discussion. I'd like to see it continued :(

Only problems PGL have while tanking ismaybe only in NM groups when there is people DoTing and that in multiple targets we take too much dmg, I can keep hate with just using Invigorate/Attack buffs, and don't really need to use either Taunt or Provoke to keep hate while main tanking.
As DD, I find myself doing basically same dmg and maybe even more sometimes than LNCs, in both Damage Spikes and Damage over time(I use HQ Disabling Baghnakhs, so inflict poison + flurry spam = huge XD)
I see PGL as class that is kinda of "support" to the other DoW, we can tank if anything happens to the tank, we can DD, and can even "enfeeble" the enemies.
So in PGL I just try to have my stats "good" for anything that might happen, I have 150 str, 145 vit and 140 dex, so I'm able to do a bit of everything. x.x

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

2. Do PGL do enough damage?

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I don't know if it's just the people I party with, but as a Pugilist, I've definitely got the highest DPS. The only thing that could possibly come close is Archer, but I'd have to play as r50 Archer for a bit before I can say anything more specific than that.

In regards to tanking: it's certainly possible to tank as a Pugilist, but Gladiator is pretty much the de facto tank at this point.

I'd like to see some parse info from people saying Pug does king damage or close.

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Originally Posted by Vackashken

I'd like to see some parse info from people saying Pug does king damage or close.

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Ya same here, I think the confusion comes from the pugilist ripping hate off of everything else with flurry.

Regardless of the damage, pugilist generates hate through punches, and way to much imho.
It's sad that the only defensive moves I use to tank NMs are featherfoot ii and accomplice (i only use this to rip hate from the current tank (makes sure they don't take it back right away))
Flurries and buffs with w/e weaponskill and i'll get hate every time, even with out of sight (if i don't seriously pace myself)

All very valid points about Pugilist. Essentially, turning PGL in to another main DD wouldn't be an effective balance. We can all agree that ARC and LNC shine when it comes to damage. Let those classes keep their glory. One thing that is important to understand is that the devs are revamping the battle system. One of their primary goals is to fix the hate system. As a 49 PUG I can say that throughout my time playing this job i have been more than an effective tank in several situations. If played right, PUG can stay alive for a very long time and hold hate just the same. I don't think there should be any argument that PUG isn't second in line with GLD when it comes to tanking. However this doesn't go for "end game" NM's. I think the question we should ask ourselves is that,

-After the enmity revamp along with battle components, do we want to see GLD as the only reliable tank?

-After we see changes in stat/gear system (i forget what they're calling it) would we want to see a tank that takes advantage of evasion?

I would like to see PGL become an even more effective tank as the game progresses throughout it's changes. Why take a great class that has potential and scrap it for Ninja?

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Originally Posted by Vackashken

I'd like to see some parse info from people saying Pug does king damage or close.

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It doesn't. In a party of 8 on your NMs this is what the parses almost always show:

Pug-18% of damage
MRD-18% of damage
LNC-20% of damge
THM/CON-22% of damage
ARC-25% of damage
GLA-1% of damage
Healer-1% of damage

It's actually remarkably reproduceable, even if the archer dies which is really disappointing.

Note that this isn't a specific party as it doesn't add to 100%. This is just what, on average, each damaging role provides to a total party when they're in a typical balanced party.

I see pugilists and marauders in the same boat--first up on the chopping block of "no point in inviting one" if content gets difficult. They won't be invited to tank, and they won't be invited to DD. Pugs, like Marauders, are great at generic content but not great where the players emphasize, which is endgame and big fights.

I would like to see pugs become the kings of slow and steady DPS like they almost were in XI. None of their "balance ability points" should be wasted on the silly notion that they can tank. No one cares, because that's what gladiators are for.

i think they need to work on the offensive switch of pugilist, the idea is they can adapt to offense or defense, but while we are very strong defensively, IE we are actually a fairly decent tank, we arent hardcore on the Offense side, simian is a defenseive skill, discerning eye requires being damage to be effective, the jarring strike haymaker combo requires being the tank. The only offensive stat skill we have now are flurry, we probably need some more skills that build off being aggressive, ie, something powerful that can go after flurry, or maybe something that procs off criticals, another possibility is something that increases attack the more basic attacks you land.

The idea they seem to originally had was pug can become more offensive or more defensive or be somewhere in the middle, its not always an instant change, but its pretty adaptive. I dont need to see the slow steady dps, id rather some sort of building system, or more combo based stuff, like say
new pug skill,
body break (each hit of flurry or from asuran fists increases your attack (any other skill/attack breaks the effect)(has a limit obviously))
asuran fists (750 tp can be executed after flurry or asuran fists while body break is active)
Death touch (1000-3000 touch opponent vital area doing immense damage and reducing defense, can be executed after asuran fists)

this might not come into full play till much higher level mind you, since it would need 3 powerful skills, but you see the progression youd get from going further and further into an offensive style.
Youd be doing something like heavy>flurry>bodybreak>heavy>flurry>flury>flurry>flurry>asuran>asuran>death touch then youd have to start over again because no tp and death touch doesnt continue body break. Its not something youd be able to do if you have to be too defensive, or throw a second wind or a cure, basically commiting to offense, as well as probably a pretty fun combo to do.

Pugilists are actually pretty decent off-tanks. Meaning you're used for things like pulling an enemy off a group and holding it for the party to kill, while the Gladiator tanks the rest of it. Or in the instance shit hits the fan and your Gladiator goes down, a Pug can tank in a pinch though it can sometimes be close. I can say this because I've done this and honestly I'd say they shouldn't be main tanks ever if possible. They have the least native tanking abilities of the "tank" classes.

As far as DD goes, it depends on how many targets. Archer and Lancer obviously have it beat in terms of raw damage in both situations. Now the spot for 3rd really goes to Pug in a 1-on-1 fight though in groups they will really fall behind Marauder. Reason being, a properly positioned Marauder can hit the entire group so while each individual hit may be less or even on par the damage adds up to be more over all targets. Not really addressing the mage classes though, just looking at other DoW. Judging by Peregrine's info (if it's accurate) Pug would be dead last out of the DDs in a large group fight.

yeah but being kinda ok at tanking isnt going to get you too far usually, DDs can burn things down, and tanks will be for the big mobs. I honestly think pug should have superior 1 vs 1 fighting skills and be able to go either offensive or defensive much like the old website reccomended.


Buuuut we may lose basic attacks with auto attack anyhow sooo....

Not sure what this kinda OK tank is about. Just Wednesday I tanked the Buffalo nm for our LS. I didn't have a hard time at all really. What I can't do is tank NMs that have multiple mobs attached (like Gobby, Mosshorn) because evasion is meaningless since there are so many and when I am hit I can't take too many. 1 on 1 I can tank anything so far.

One the hate algorithm is adjusted and they remove the stamina bar (which I am just GUESSING they will do) I think it will be that much easier to tank. That is if its the direction the class is going to take. I can't but wonder if we will become akin to ninja tanks from 11 if we get more shadows with featherfoot. Again, just conjecture.

I don't know about you guys, but Ill say again that I started pugilist to be a DD.
Now they might give us the choice if we want to be Tanks or DDs depending on stat distribution and gear choice, but If I had this choice I would go for damage dealing cause that's what I wanna play.
I was very proud of my Monk's damage potential in FF11 and I wanna see this again in FF14...

i want pugilist to be excellent defensiely and offensively, though maybe not at the same time, i dont want it to play like monk though, which ended up becoming the least interactive class as they altered other classes.

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Originally Posted by Vackashken

Not sure what this kinda OK tank is about. Just Wednesday I tanked the Buffalo nm for our LS. I didn't have a hard time at all really. What I can't do is tank NMs that have multiple mobs attached (like Gobby, Mosshorn) because evasion is meaningless since there are so many and when I am hit I can't take too many. 1 on 1 I can tank anything so far.

One the hate algorithm is adjusted and they remove the stamina bar (which I am just GUESSING they will do) I think it will be that much easier to tank. That is if its the direction the class is going to take. I can't but wonder if we will become akin to ninja tanks from 11 if we get more shadows with featherfoot. Again, just conjecture.

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Frame of reference bias. I tanked the great buffalo with 15 vitality for 4 minutes just messing around. On conjurer. With R35 body armor on.
The conclusion isn't that pug is a great tank. It's that there really aren't situations in the game that call for great tanks. I have no doubt in my mind that conjurer is an awesome tank, if by awesome you mean can tank great buffalo with no issues. Again, I wasn't even trying. I was the opposite of trying.

Honestly when those situations arise, the thaumaturge is a safer tank than pugilist is, and every meleer would perform about the same--that is, very poorly.

Pug isn't going to get any points for being an eva tank or an off tank. It's just not a worthwhile or functional role. It's one thing to say it, and another thing to mistake accomplishing it with being great at it compared to anyone else.

It's another to actually be it. Ninja was an evasion tank. Pugilist is a blood tank with bad gear options.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

Frame of reference bias. I tanked the great buffalo with 15 vitality for 4 minutes just messing around. On conjurer. With R35 body armor on.
The conclusion isn't that pug is a great tank. It's that there really aren't situations in the game that call for great tanks. I have no doubt in my mind that conjurer is an awesome tank, if by awesome you mean can tank great buffalo with no issues. Again, I wasn't even trying. I was the opposite of trying.

Honestly when those situations arise, the thaumaturge is a safer tank than pugilist is, and every meleer would perform about the same--that is, very poorly.

Pug isn't going to get any points for being an eva tank or an off tank. It's just not a worthwhile or functional role. It's one thing to say it, and another thing to mistake accomplishing it with being great at it compared to anyone else.

It's another to actually be it. Ninja was an evasion tank. Pugilist is a blood tank with bad gear options.

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pugilist isnt as bad a tank as you think, evasion is a much more noticeable skill in this game. and light strike+ concussive blow/ feather foot/ evasion gear can make you able to tank even fairly hard monsters, some more than others, I dont think it can mess with glad in straight damage mitigation, but it has its uses. That said, we really would have to test it with a tank built pug, on high level monsters, stuff like 14-20 levels higher. dont underestimate having a 30 point difference in parrying and a shitload more evasion for tanking.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

Frame of reference bias.

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Or from fact of doing it would be a more appropriate perspective?

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

I tanked the great buffalo with 15 vitality for 4 minutes just messing around. On conjurer. With R35 body armor on.
The conclusion isn't that pug is a great tank. It's that there really aren't situations in the game that call for great tanks. I have no doubt in my mind that conjurer is an awesome tank, if by awesome you mean can tank great buffalo with no issues. Again, I wasn't even trying. I was the opposite of trying.

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Irrelevant - we're talking about if pug can tank or not. It can and easily so.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

Honestly when those situations arise, the thaumaturge is a safer tank than pugilist is, and every meleer would perform about the same--that is, very poorly.

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Irrelevant - we're talking about if pug can tank or not. It can and easily so.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

Pug isn't going to get any points for being an eva tank or an off tank. It's just not a worthwhile or functional role. It's one thing to say it, and another thing to mistake accomplishing it with being great at it compared to anyone else.

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Or again, the fact of the matter is I was called to tank Buffalo and did so without problem leaving the other members to fill other roles. I'm not sure why you're bringing any of this up when the frame of reference was can or can it not tank. Not is it the best.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

It's another to actually be it. Ninja was an evasion tank. Pugilist is a blood tank with bad gear options.

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Again, was there a comparison in the vein you are talking about or are you wasting our theoretically discussion of what we'd like for pug to become for a chance to be some kind of bizarre know-it-all? We're talking about what can pug do and what can't it do. We're talking about what we'd like it to become and what needs to get better. Not if its the best or is something else better.

FFS...

Physic & Vackashken
Just ignore them, they do nothing but argue their opinions no matter how invalid and will continue to do so for pages even if they are the only one supporting the opinion. It's best not to feed creatures living under bridges.

Lol how is the fact that conjurer can tank the great buffalo without even trying "irrelevant" when pugilists bring that situation up as evidence that they're great tanks?

Like I said, it's not what you can do. It's what you can do that others can't. And honestly there's nothing a pugilist can tank that any other job, forget gladiator altogether, can't. Well I might add.

If this pugilist showed up to FF11 and said hay guyz I can tank it'd be laughed off the field. No it can't.

Everyone can tank. Big difference. Don't mistake that for pug being a good tank.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

Lol how is the fact that conjurer can tank the great buffalo without even trying "irrelevant" when pugilists bring that situation up as evidence that they're great tanks?

Like I said, it's not what you can do. It's what you can do that others can't. And honestly there's nothing a pugilist can tank that any other job, forget gladiator altogether, can't. Well I might add.

If this pugilist showed up to FF11 and said hay guyz I can tank it'd be laughed off the field. No it can't.

Everyone can tank. Big difference. Don't mistake that for pug being a good tank.

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No one cares about what you have to say. Literally.

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Originally Posted by Vackashken

No one cares about what you have to say. Literally.

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I'm just telling you the truth, I really don't care if you like it or care about it. Better hear it from me now than people who start to laugh at you the more you posture that pugilist is an eva tank. You're an eva tank...in the context of an even match puk fight where the puk misses while featherfoot is up, then dies before it can weaponskill. If the fight lasts more than three hits, you're just a gladiator with horrible gear.

I know how much HP per second it takes to keep you alive. Stop kidding yourself before teams make you stop kidding yourself. You're as good a tank as any other meleer. The sooner you realize that, the sooner you can start asking pugilist to actually gain some assets worth inviting.

Pugilist is a DD, not a tank. Stop messing around.
Pugilist has no future other than king of DPS.

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Originally Posted by Vackashken

No one cares about what you have to say. Literally.

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seriously man, just ignore them
they posted 2 paragraphs in response to your 1 sentence, clearly unstable

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Originally Posted by Akuun

seriously man, just ignore them
they posted 2 paragraphs in response to your 1 sentence, clearly unstable

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Head IN the sand.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Meleena

I don't know about you guys, but Ill say again that I started pugilist to be a DD.
Now they might give us the choice if we want to be Tanks or DDs depending on stat distribution and gear choice, but If I had this choice I would go for damage dealing cause that's what I wanna play.
I was very proud of my Monk's damage potential in FF11 and I wanna see this again in FF14...

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I'm wondering if in the upcoming variation pug will become the tank version and "mnk" (whatever it might be called) will be the DD brand.