Swoard Oath & Shield Oath

I've been wondering if it would be beneficial for endgame threat generation to switch during fights between Sword & Shield Oath.

I haven't had any problems with threat on the higher level dungeons but i'd like to think the more enmity i can generate on any given situation will allow for heavier DPS on my party counterpart

My scenario being after popping Flight or Fight switching over to Sword Oath to further increase the damage maybe creating a small gap during the active time of flight or fight one could take advantage of the "damage increase" effects of this two abilities combined. This leads me to my second question.

If anyone knows if sword oath has some or any effect on skills such as fracture or the RoH combo, been wondering if the stance switch is worth at all looking into, or whatever bonus i can get from the added damage isn't worth loosing one cooldown timer the MP chunk and Shield Oath's bonuses

Been reading up on this myself. It seems that many prefer to start an encounter with shield oath and then swap to sword oath for the extra dps once enmity is fully established. Many are reporting that shield oath is overkill for maintaining enmity. It may be useful at first, but when you can hold aggro well enough and do extra damage, why wouldn't you?

I've been switching in and out of stances in my last couple of fights, while sometimes i run dangerously low on MP i've found not only it makes my gamestyle more varied, it does indeed at least help in some way to boost the effects of abilities that otherwise are useless under shield's oath effect, mainly fight or flight, being a great ability to hold during 30seconds.

What i'm not sure it does is if sword oath only affect auto attacks or would it affect main WS as well, all in al i think it's a good avenue for varied gameplay, w'ell see what the community has to say =P

by the description and from what i have noticed it only affects auto attacks.

I'm like the annoying healer that hangs out in the tank forums.

A quickie if you're tanking, that Shield Oath is absolutely lovely on my MP supply too. But I do hope you find ways to weave Sword Oath into your adventures.

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Originally Posted by Kryzen

by the description and from what i have noticed it only affects auto attacks.

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This. I believe it grants 50 potency to auto attacks only unless the tool tip is incorrect.

The reduction to damage taken is also something you need to take into consideration.

But you have to take into account you no longer have -20% dmg. I'm pretty sure the tool tip is incorrect however, it seems like some of my abilities hit harder as well... Could simply be my imagination. I typically pull with Shield Oath up for a threat lead and switch over to Sword Oath to increase overall dmg throughput on the boss. Typically saving Fight or Flight for when I switch to Sword Oath.

How do the mechanics for shield oath work? Does it stack the 20% damage resistance on top of your current armor mitigation?

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Originally Posted by Fiosha_Maureiba

I'm like the annoying healer that hangs out in the tank forums.

A quickie if you're tanking, that Shield Oath is absolutely lovely on my MP supply too. But I do hope you find ways to weave Sword Oath into your adventures.

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As i said it's entirely situational mostly i switch in after i get a good hang of the bosses patter if he has one, or after ability where i know the whm can have a easier time healing whatever increased damage i take during those 30 seconds, tanking is all about being aware of the whole situation. not just the amount of enmity to generate, so it's good to have other classes inputs on the thread

(no use having the increased enmity if the whm has to pick up with overheals to maintain me alive, it just nullifies any extra enmity i will generate since the healer wlll have to compensate himself generating needles enmity, however i do think if timed and used right it is a great way to boost the pld's tanking form

Now I know why my SMN keeps pulling hate its because you PLD keep thinking you're DPS class well here is a wake up call don't use sword oath and keep shield oath up because your job is to protect your teammates from taking damage.

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Originally Posted by Inosaska

Now I know why my SMN keeps pulling hate its because you PLD keep thinking you're DPS class well here is a wake up call don't use sword oath and keep shield oath up because your job is to protect your teammates from taking damage.

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You probably pull hate because you attack the wrong targets... Idk about everyone else but the only time I use sword oath is on an actual boss fight, when I have a good lead on threat. Have yet to see anyone catch up on threat after switching otherwise I would switch back.

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Originally Posted by ByakkoSeven

You probably pull hate because you attack the wrong targets... Idk about everyone else but the only time I use sword oath is on an actual boss fight, when I have a good lead on threat. Have yet to see anyone catch up on threat after switching otherwise I would switch back.

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I'm a dot class and with the current way they have us set up we have a 7.5 sec ramp up time before we even start our full damage. I'm going to tab to the next target and start doing the same thing and the next one too. You have to adjust on what classes are in your party and if you don't want to take the time to do that then there is something wrong with you.

It is impossible for any class to pull threat off a PLD ST wise, even without Shield Oath. Our ST aggro rotation once we get RoH just generates a stupid amount of threat. The only way a class can pull threat off a PLD is one of three ways...

1) You are a WAR who just used provoke to cheat your way up
2) DPS hitting the wrong target and you should delete your character for your noobishness.
3) Your PLD just sucks and should delete his character because all he does is auto attack

If you are a DPS and you pull aggro part 2 or 3 just occurred.

edit: to include SMN who tab dot... flash is more then enough to maintain threat vs that and if the PLD looses aggro he should be kicked.

personally i would simply stay in sword oath, at least for pugs. Since a lot of the healers MP is going to the DPS who cant avoid the red it helps them a lot to save on MP when healing the tank. FC run what you want, they go so much smoother and its a ton less effort.

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Originally Posted by Firescorpio

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That being said, you're right about timing it. As a White Mage, I've noticed certain lull periods where everyone is topped off and Stoneskin is up on the tanks. It's during these times, that I may dare switch to Cleric's Stance and cast a few spells. I suspect it is during this same window of opportunity that you'll be able to use Sword Oath with minimal consequence and contribute to ending the fight sooner.

And also as you says, getting the hang of bosses and encounters to recognize these moments to take advantage of them may be part of improving Paladin performance.

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Originally Posted by Kryzen

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Sorry sir but you are wrong on so many points. Should get to max level before making absurd claims.

1. a WAR with defiance up spamming his same normal rotation will pull threat from a PLD eventually. They do more dmg flat out which equals to more emnity. No need to use provoke at all.
2. DPS hitting the wrong targets can cause a fairly new pld to lose one but in the case of SMNs that's how there dps goes. They multi dot and Flash will not hold hate over it for long.

Sword Oath is good if you are off tanking on a boss that's about it. Even on a boss with the movement, interrupting, etc going on you can have DPS creep up on you. Especially on fights like Ifrit when you are waiting for interrupts. There really is no reason when tanking a boss to not have shield oath on. Sword oath only affects your auto attacks which is minimal AND you cut your emnity in half.

Getting an extra 50 potency on auto attacks (which are garbage altogether) is not worth losing the emnity even if you are far ahead or the 20% dmg reduction. You never know what's going to happen and that 150 dmg you do extra per minute will not make or break any fight in the game. If it does then it's the dps that have an issue not you.

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Originally Posted by MorbidAngel

This. I believe it grants 50 potency to auto attacks only unless the tool tip is incorrect.

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The tooltip is misleading. It actually causes you to double attack, the second one being for 50 potency. I kept wondering about how much this did, since it never seemed to affect my AA damage. Unequipped all gear and autoattacked mobs. Without sword oath a single number popped up, with Sword Oath on I would get two numbers (46 and 31 for instance).

I just lost my post... I hate this Firefox keystroke PG UP. I just... I just wanted to do some quick and dirty math (for fun and giggles).

Okay, try #3.

Dirty math break down in the hidden boxes. It does not calculate the actual damage, it only calculates the "potency". Damage may be factored in by auto-attack damage, weapon damage, Strength, Determination, and other things.

Summary:
A Paladin using a Cobalt Winglet, using the Rage of Halone combo as frequently as possible and auto-attacking a target for one minute, rounding the number of attacks down.

The Paladin in Sword Oath with a Cobalt Winglet is contributing 9080 attack potency toward the battle (not actual damage) and generating 12760 potency worth in enmity.

The Paladin in Shield Oath with a Cobalt Winglet is contributing 6144 attack potency toward the battle and 18176 attack potency in enmity, while sustaining 20% less damage (healing potency of this not factored).

The Paladin without any Oath (e.g. Gladiator) with a Cobalt Winglet is contributing 7680 attack potency toward the battle and generating 11360 potency worth in enmity.

As stated, other weapons with slower delays may translate the potency into higher (or lower) numbers. So, grain of salt yeah? (and it's math sorta, it was fun). The damage difference is equivalent to doing Rage of Halone combo almost five times. Mostly just throwing it out there.

Please note, this isn't a representation of actual damage, but of the "potency" as indicated by a tool tip.
Auto-attack potency = 100 (determined by attacking a testing dummy, then using abilities and deriving the suspected potency of auto-attack that way).
Sword Oath potency = 50
Using a Cobalt Winglet, attack speed = 2.09 seconds per attack
Number of attacks in a minute = 28 attacks, rounding down

Auto-attack potency over a minute = (100 + 50) * 28 = 4200 attack potency (not damage).
Enmity generated over a minute = 4200 attack potency worth in enmity

Assuming that a Paladin is spamming Fast Blade -> Savage Blade -> Rage of Halone (150 + 200 + 260), with an attack potency of 610 every 7.5 seconds.
The number of times a Paladin can pull off this combo in a minute "could" be 8 times.
Savage Blade and Rage of Halone generate x2 enmity based on damage dealt, so enmity of 400 potency and 520 potency.
The combo generates an enmity equal to 1070 attack potency.

Rage of Halone combo over a minute = 610 * 8 = 4880 attack potency (not actual damage)
Enmity of Rage Halone combo over a minute = 8560 attack potency worth of enmity

The Paladin in Sword Oath with a Cobalt Winglet is contributing 9080 attack potency toward the battle (not actual damage) and generating 12760 potency worth in enmity.

The Paladin in Shield Oath deals 20% less damage, takes 20% less damage, all actions have x2 enmity. But looking at this from a damage and enmity perspective with SLOPPY unsane math... we have...

Shield Oath impacts all damage by 0.8, but then doubles the enmity generated, so then we have...
Auto-attack with the same Cobalt Winglet that is in desperate need of repair now: 100 * 0.8 = 80
With an enmity generation of x2, so 80 * 2 = 160
Auto-attack potency over a minute = 2240
Enmity generation of auto-attacks = 4480

Then for the Rage of Halone combo, potency is 610 * 0.8 = 488 attack potency.
The enmity potency however is now equal to (150 + 200 * 2 + 260 * 2) * 0.8 * 2 = 1712.
(Fast Blade + Savage Blade's double enmity + Rage of Halone's double enmity) * Shield Oath's reduced damage dealt * Shield Oath's bonus enmity.

Over the course of a minute, the Rage of Halone combo in Shield Oath deals 3904 in attack potency for damage and 13696 in attack potency for enmity.

The Paladin in Shield Oath with a Cobalt Winglet is contributing 6144 attack potency toward the battle and 18176 attack potency in enmity, while sustaining 20% less damage.

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Originally Posted by Inosaska

I'm a dot class and with the current way they have us set up we have a 7.5 sec ramp up time before we even start our full damage. I'm going to tab to the next target and start doing the same thing and the next one too. You have to adjust on what classes are in your party and if you don't want to take the time to do that then there is something wrong with you.

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The way they have SMN set up you use Bane to spread your DoTs, not re-cast them on every mob in the pull. If you're not using Bane then there is something wrong with you.

As for tanking for with a SMN in the party, on trash packs after level 30 with an SMN doing proper DoT spread (BioII/Miasma/Bio then use carby/garuda skill to +15s the duration then use Bane), 1-2 uses of Flash while the first target is focus-fired will not hold hate off the SMN for very long.

Flash should be rotated every so often though, not just at the beginning of a fight otherwise it wont even hold hate vs a healer.

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Originally Posted by Kryzen

Flash should be rotated every so often though, not just at the beginning of a fight otherwise it wont even hold hate vs a healer.

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Wow, strike two... ever heard of tab tanking?

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Originally Posted by Tronic

Wow, strike two... ever heard of tab tanking?

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There's more than one way to tank in this game...

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Originally Posted by Tronic

Wow, strike two... ever heard of tab tanking?

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Wouldn't call it a strike. Flash grabs enmity through my crowd control.

Flash should be used regardless of tab tanking or not. YOU MUST tab tank to hold agro against any decent dps with aoe
Flash is good for blind and build threat against sleeping targets

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Originally Posted by Fiosha_Maureiba

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I guess the general message to carry in this is that you perform better with one or the other up, and decide on which to use depending on the situation. I've always postulated that Sword Oath would shine in spots where you're not the main tank for whatever reason (tank swaps, mechanics where you can't generate threat for X seconds).

Hi everyone,

A lot of you seem to be operating under the assumption that Shield Oath still has a 2x enmity modifier. I am fairly certain that this is not the case. Just based on some quick stuff out in the desert (and casual observation during parties), Shield Oath appears to increase enmity generation by 20%, while Sword Oath's bonus attacks seem to generate double their damage in enmity (for example an auto attack with Sword Oath that produces a 100 damage hit and a 50 damage SO will generate 200 hate). I could be wrong about this, so I encourage you to go check it out for yourselves. Grab a paladin with equal stats (same race, same gear, same distribution) and have one use Shield Oath and the other go oathless. If both use Flash it's easy to see that one Flash is definitely not generating double enmity. Damage testing produced similar results.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

A lot of you seem to be operating under the assumption that Shield Oath still has a 2x enmity modifier. I am fairly certain that this is not the case. Just based on some quick stuff out in the desert (and casual observation during parties), Shield Oath appears to increase enmity generation by 20%, while Sword Oath's bonus attacks seem to generate double their damage in enmity (for example an auto attack with Sword Oath that produces a 100 damage hit and a 50 damage SO will generate 200 hate). I could be wrong about this, so I encourage you to go check it out for yourselves. Grab a paladin with equal stats (same race, same gear, same distribution) and have one use Shield Oath and the other go oathless. If both use Flash it's easy to see that one Flash is definitely not generating double enmity. Damage testing produced similar results.

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Not quite the same test, but I can tell you how my Bowl of Embers (Hard) runs were going whenever I ended up with another Paladin in Duty Finder last week. Whenever this setup happened, I let the other Paladin main tank while I stayed on stun duty, because I trust my own knowledge of Ifrit's patterns more than I trust a PUG to predict them. Therefore, not anticipating any tanking of my own, I figured that I might as well contribute a little more DPS and switched to Sword Oath before each pull, while the other Paladin would use Shield Oath. I would let the Shield Oath Paladin run in with their Shield Lob, let Ifrit do his opening fire breath attack before he got turned around, and then I would run toward Ifrit while the other Paladin began their first Halone combo. Pretty standard opening to the fight from the tank's perspective, and from mine as a melee DPS for all intents and purposes. Here's where things get weird though:

The first time we did this, when I arrived at Ifrit's backside, I immediately went into my own Halone combo, and I pulled threat after finishing off my first Halone. Ifrit turned back to me and swiped through all of my melee DPS buddies, a bolt of panic struck everyone in the party, and I threw my hands in the air to stop myself from doing anything until the Shield Oath Paladin managed to pull hate back. I thought that this was a fluke -- maybe the other Paladin messed up their combo or something, the way that sometimes I can hear my own actions fire off even though the enemy moved out of range and canceled them. However once things were back under control, and I started paying extra attention to the threat bars and battle log, it became apparent that I was accruing enmity SIGNIFICANTLY faster than the main tank Paladin with the same abilities. I spent the first half of that fight sitting on my hands because if I threw out just a few combos between stuns, I'd easily be at risk of surpassing the main tank's enmity. Party after party, this continued to prove itself as the case.

In short, I think that the opening moments said it all. One Halone combo by itself in Sword Oath outdid the threat generated by the same Halone combo + Shield Lob + first strike bonus + better gear in the hands of the Shield Oath main tank.

After experiencing several more dual-paladin Ifrit pulls and seeing the same enmity trends time after time, I can say with the utmost assurance that if your healer has proven that they can keep up without putting the party at risk, but enmity concerns are the only thing preventing you from using Sword Oath, then you actually have no good reason not to switch to Sword Oath over Shield Oath. The enmity is actually better, and is probably the main purpose for Sword Oath being given to us in the first place, while the bonus damage is just that -- a bonus to ice the already sweet cake with. Shield Oath may say that it gives bonus enmity, because when you sacrifice damage (and consequentially enmity) for defense you need some extra enmity in order to stay viable as a tank, but Shield Oath's bonus enmity still doesn't compare to the extra unspoken enmity generated by the bonus damage of Sword Oath.

Therefore the only reason to ever use Shield Oath, as things stand now, is if you actually need the extra defense against an especially hard hitting foe or if your healer is weak and struggling to keep up with their job. As the enmity of Shield Oath actually falls below that of Sword Oath, despite the misleading tooltips, rather than defaulting to tanking in Shield Oath and only using Sword Oath for burn phases or off tanking, we should probably be defaulting to Sword Oath and only use Shield Oath for it's one remaining purpose: sacrificing damage and threat in order to mitigate the lethal damage of especially hard-hitting foes that we otherwise couldn't survive.

With that in mind, rather than baffling me the way that it did when I first read the tool tips in beta, it actually makes sense that we get Sword Oath unlocked before Shield Oath. Generally speaking in mid-game, tanks find themselves having to struggle for enmity, and while the tooltip for Sword Oath might read simply as a way to give us viability as off-tanks in dual-tank end-game situations while Shield Oath misleadingly reads as the threat-generating skill that struggling tanks should be crying out for, Sword Oath is actually the superior threat-generating stance that main tanks of all party sizes should be using in order to most effectively compete for enmity. It isn't until end-game that the enmity generated by everyone's abilities begins to feel better balanced, at which point it's no coincidence that Shield Oath is presented to us and the first hard-hitting bosses begin to appear -- because it isn't until the more balanced threat levels of end-game that tanks can realistically justify the situational viability of sacrificing their grip on enmity for a little extra damage mitigation.