How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Armoury System

I'm just going to bookmark this and link it every time I see someone say:

• Shouldn't we just get rid of classes and only have jobs?
• The class system in this game is too complicated.
• I'd like to join ARR, but this system turns me off.
• What's the freaking difference, anyway?
• I'm shortsighted and in need of guidance, Master Moose.

Okay, so maybe that last one is pretty rare, but I'm sick of seeing the rest.

In short, no we shouldn't, it's complicated but not overly so, the difference is enough that you should care, and I'd be delighted, so gather round the campfire, and listen to the tale of how I learned to stop worrying and love the Armoury System.

Take a deep breath, pretend you've never heard of how your roles are organized in FFXIV, and move ahead with an open, but analytical mind. As a fellow MMO player, I realize that this may be a challenge for you. Perhaps start with a cup of Celestial Seasonings and a beta blocker. Of course I'll update this if you come up with something better.

What's the difference, and why should I care?
Generally:

• Classes: Ability-based; loose, custom-built roles for general, low-intensity activities
  • What you use to get EXP, farm items, etc.
    
• Jobs: Activity-based; restrictive, cookie-cutter roles for specific, demanding activities
  • What you activate as needed (NO SEPARATE EXP GRIND)
    

What does this mean for you? On classes, you will have access to most of the abilities you've unlocked on every class. This means your EXP party doesn't have to conform to too-specific of a set-up just to blow through trash mobs, leves, and sidequests. It means that, while you're solo, you won't have to be subject to all of your job's biggest weaknesses for the benefit of having access to party-saving heavy-hitters you won't be using anyway. And unless you're soloing around an area that's your own level or higher, it won't make much difference anyway. Have fun.

If you've ever played FFXI, you know the pain of having to wait around for hours to get the "acceptable" cookie-cutter set-up to come together just to grind out some mass calibri genocide. You know the annoyance of trying to farm on white mage just because you don't want to go back to your mog house and rearrange all your inventory to make use of something you don't play very often. You know the liability of bringing your job's biggest weaknesses down to Kuftal Tunnel to grind out yet another thousand crabs in a row. Kiss those days goodbye.

But what about when you don't need a healer class to be able to deal a little damage or take a punch like a man for once in their father-disappointing lives!? What about when the tank is getting hit hard enough to bleed all that hate right to the floor? It's time to break those cookie cutters back out and dominate using your specialized jobs, which is what you'll be doing in most group-events anyway.

Potentially, this means double the storyline, double the content, more immersion, and a metric behemoth-load of customization (more in the later levels). Every mage is a red mage when you're using classes. Learn to enjoy your options. It's not like it's hard to manage once you know what you're doing - so what "simplicity" do you have to gain by limiting your behavior so harshly in exchange?

How do I plan my development if it's so complicated?

I can see you've yet to play the game, and I'm glad you're going to give it a shot. You will be, too. You don't need to plan much of anything. The game's not going to make you branch out into a tree and choose one ability over another - your only limits are your time and motivation. Max out that class/job you really love, and then head back to tackle just enough levels on other classes to achieve what singular abilities you want to add to your repertoire. Hell, get them all. EXP is meant to come faster in this game - sinking time into just the grind it takes to be able to play while SE prints and distributes new content disks to your local Electronics Boutique is so old school that it owes Rhalgr a dollar. There's going to be plenty to do once you're maxed out.

I agree but It'll be down to SE to make the system truely customizable and not 1 size fits all like it has been so far. Chocobo companions will also effect all of this since they are soloing/low man aides.

*cough* Loremonger: Lominsan Story Arc *cough*

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Originally Posted by Alaltus

I agree but It'll be down to SE to make the system truely customizable and not 1 size fits all like it has been so far. Chocobo companions will also effect all of this since they are soloing/low man aides.

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Yeah; the ones kind of a double-sided issue. Levels 1 to 20ish should always be kind of a generic "hit mob, don't die" platform that shows you the basic feel of the "If X then Y" of the game - but I've also seen a lot of players like, "I've played 1 to 10 on all jobs and they feel exactly the same. This game is going to fail," which is just... The Twelve can't even create a face and palm of the necessary caliber.

I'm also looking forward to the chocobo buddies. The FFXI NPC Linkpearl was a neat system and I get the impression that the chocobos are going to be very similar, which is great news because my path companion in 1.X was basically the story arc equivalent of the Sassy Gay Friend stock character trope.

"This Echo has revealed that it was Flame Colonel Mustard in the Gladiator Guild with a giant donko!"
"OH, NO HE DI'INT."
"I do believe the jig is up, Colonel!"
"AND YOUR MOTHER'S A THREE-LEGGED DODO."

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Originally Posted by Mjollnir

*cough* Loremonger: Lominsan Story Arc *cough*

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Fernehalwes has confirmed that some overdue lore forum replies are in production and will surface after some insanely busy work at SEHQ allows them some wiggle room for such things. I've decided to hold off from main entries until that point - but I promise, I've been building up my army of raw transcripts. Ul'dah and Gridania are already about 75% done.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Fernehalwes has confirmed that some overdue lore forum replies are in production and will surface after some insanely busy work at SEHQ allows them some wiggle room for such things. I've decided to hold off from main entries until that point - but I promise, I've been building up my army of raw transcripts. Ul'dah and Gridania are already about 75% done.

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Looking forward to the read Mr. Moose!

The armory system is still super broken, but it gets the job done.

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Ability-based; loose, custom-built roles for general, low-intensity activities

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This is actually the reason I dislike it so much. In theory, this should be pretty rad, letting players pick 10 skills they want to customize their class to how they want to play it. However, with the way the system actually works, everyone just picks the same skill because of how restrictive it is. There are only a handful of useful skill useable from other classes, and everyone is going to just use those, thus making the classes cookie-cutter in the process.

I've learned to just accept that this is how the game is going to function, and that's fine...but I truly dislike the Armory system.

"wait wha!? this topic... you are so going to my ignore..."
"oh... Professor Master Moose!?"
"...isn't... general discussion..."
http://i.imgur.com/dQVBs4A.jpg

come to think about it... soon we'll be merge to the Nono place :O>
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...The_Scream.jpg

I deal with it fine enough, and I don't have any problems with classes vs. jobs.

The main thing I wish they would have done differently is not tie down classes to only a single weapon. SE's selling point for doing this is being able to change job anywhere just by changing weapon/tool, but it could have been done just as easily by... simply letting us change job anywhere, through a change job button, regardless of weapon. Basically just take a FFXI style job change menu and don't restrict it to the mog house/inn room/whatever you want to call it. Done. But no, that would be too simple.

By restricting us to 1 weapon = 1 class, they've reduced the number of possible playstyles, and have also really pigeonholed themselves when it comes time to release new classes/jobs as they need to introduce new weapon types as well.

But what's done is done. All we can do now is protect our precious bodily fluids.
http://blogs.ei.columbia.edu/wp-cont...k-d-ripper.jpg

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Originally Posted by KiriA500

In theory, this should be pretty rad, letting players pick 10 skills they want to customize their class to how they want to play it. However, with the way the system actually works, everyone just picks the same skill because of how restrictive it is. There are only a handful of useful skill useable from other classes, and everyone is going to just use those, thus making the classes cookie-cutter in the process.

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I don't actually disagree with you at all as pertains to this day at this time. The main reason I oft use the term short-sighted in reply to anti-armoury sentiments is because I'm confident that once we see LV50+ content with more than 7 basic classes, we'll see a huge reduction in this issue, at the very least on an event basis whereby knowing the right set for that fight is part of the skill. To get rid of the system in these simple skeleton days would be to limit it beyond this forever in some ways, whereas Team Yoshida would have to mess up uncharacteristically bad to not have it leaf out into something great.

I'm not going to say I've agreed with every move they've made, but I will say that every time I've seen potential that wasn't being used, they've made a huge effort to realize it, if only by laying the foundations required to build it up right as time goes on.

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Originally Posted by Deli

"wait wha!? this topic... you are so going to my ignore..."
"oh... Professor Master Moose!?"
"...isn't... general discussion..."

---

Moose... -eli, com- ...Repeat Mo- t... y--- breaking up, over.

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Originally Posted by Myranda

The main thing I wish they would have done differently is not tie down classes to only a single weapon.

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I honestly have no idea where they're going with this, so I can barely comment. From the list of proposed classes I've seen in the past compared to the number of available jobs in the FF Catalog, I think they could pull off the 1:1 relationship if they wanted to, but sometimes it seems like they're leaving the door open for something. Who knows?

The big thing here is that, like Kiri's point about the current skills shows, some options really are pointless at times. The community will, 9 times out of 10, adopt the belief that the optimal option is the only legitimate option and everything else is gimp. You've seen this forum. "Go big or go home; you're the best of you're a failure. I need to win so bad that it sort of looks like I'm overcompensating for losing being my natural state." (Thank you, Cracked.)

Aside from the occasional Samurai whipping out a polearm for a bird party or a kiting Paladin swapping to a DEF staff, there really wasn't all that much reason to swap weapons around without getting yelled at in FFXI. Sure, you could be a Paladin with a great sword... but why? How much did we really take advantage of that freedom compared to how likely are we to take advantage of the cross-class skills sans sub-job system? Most other considerations can be filed away as semantics. "Oh, no no. Thieves use daggers. This Dancer is clearly wielding an anlace."

Still, like I said, who knows where they'll go. Not this guy.

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Originally Posted by KiriA500

This is actually the reason I dislike it so much. In theory, this should be pretty rad, letting players pick 10 skills they want to customize their class to how they want to play it.

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Technically, we shouldn't be able to pick "weapon skills" outside our main weapon (And sub weapon for shield).

As for the other skills, we can pick almost any skill we want providing it hasn't specifically designed "Exclusive", so you can customize all you want. It's not SE's fault is some skills are far more usefull than others (Healing, anyone ?)

I really enjoy the armoury system, it has some the greatest potential I've seen. It shined brightest in the earlier 1.0 days before they revamped the skills. PGL with CON THM GLA skill was pretty much unstoppable solo. Most people where not even thinking of using these skills in this way.

When they revamped the skills is when we started seeing a cookie cutter layout and the people saying you can not participate unless you have X skill. Even then there were alternatives, but most were not willing to try.

To agree and paraphrase Anonymoose there are often more than one way to do something. like FFXI in it's heyday i would take the Pepsi challenge with any tank Vs my RDM tank. :)

I really believe (hope) 2.0 will bring a lot of new skills that will make the difference between the classes and jobs more fun and apparent.

I'm not going to get into a big discussion over this since I've voiced my opinion in other threads.

I don't mind the Armory system at its core, but I personally don't feel the need to play a class once I've maxed one out because I feel a job can do just as well or better, even when restricted in how many cross class abilities it can take.

I don't know what ARR's take on classes vs jobs will be, but I'll continue to use jobs in solo content if I feel they play better.

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Originally Posted by Laevetine

When they revamped the skills is when we started seeing a cookie cutter layout and the people saying you can not participate unless you have X skill. Even then there were alternatives, but most were not willing to try.

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It was the same before the big class overhauls. As a tank you were expected to have Emulate, a level 50 THM ability. Why the hell would I need to level an offensive caster all the way to 50 to be an effective tank?

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Originally Posted by Orophin

I'm not going to get into a big discussion over this since I've voiced my opinion in other threads.

I don't mind the Armory system at its core, but I personally don't feel the need to play a class once I've maxed one out because I feel a job can do just as well or better, even when restricted in how many cross class abilities it can take.

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And I almost always preferred soloing on my classes...different stokes for different folks. There is nothing wrong with this system. You prefer your jobs, and are successful that way, great. But classes have, and always had their purpose too.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

I'm just going to bookmark this and link it every time I see someone say:

• Shouldn't we just get rid of classes and only have jobs?
• The class system in this game is too complicated.
• I'd like to join ARR, but this system turns me off.
• What's the freaking difference, anyway?
• I'm shortsighted and in need of guidance, Master Moose.

Okay, so maybe that last one is pretty rare, but I'm sick of seeing the rest.

In short, no we shouldn't, it's complicated but not overly so, the difference is enough that you should care, and I'd be delighted, so gather round the campfire, and listen to the tale of how I learned to stop worrying and love the Armoury System.

Take a deep breath, pretend you've never heard of how your roles are organized in FFXIV, and move ahead with an open, but analytical mind. As a fellow MMO player, I realize that this may be a challenge for you. Perhaps start with a cup of Celestial Seasonings and a beta blocker. Of course I'll update this if you come up with something better.

What's the difference, and why should I care?
Generally:

• Classes: Ability-based; loose, custom-built roles for general, low-intensity activities
  • What you use to get EXP, farm items, etc.
    
• Jobs: Activity-based; restrictive, cookie-cutter roles for specific, demanding activities
  • What you activate as needed (NO SEPARATE EXP GRIND)
    

What does this mean for you? On classes, you will have access to most of the abilities you've unlocked on every class. This means your EXP party doesn't have to conform to too-specific of a set-up just to blow through trash mobs, leves, and sidequests. It means that, while you're solo, you won't have to be subject to all of your job's biggest weaknesses for the benefit of having access to party-saving heavy-hitters you won't be using anyway. And unless you're soloing around an area that's your own level or higher, it won't make much difference anyway. Have fun.

If you've ever played FFXI, you know the pain of having to wait around for hours to get the "acceptable" cookie-cutter set-up to come together just to grind out some mass calibri genocide. You know the annoyance of trying to farm on white mage just because you don't want to go back to your mog house and rearrange all your inventory to make use of something you don't play very often. You know the liability of bringing your job's biggest weaknesses down to Kuftal Tunnel to grind out yet another thousand crabs in a row. Kiss those days goodbye.

But what about when you don't need a healer class to be able to deal a little damage or take a punch like a man for once in their father-disappointing lives!? What about when the tank is getting hit hard enough to bleed all that hate right to the floor? It's time to break those cookie cutters back out and dominate using your specialized jobs, which is what you'll be doing in most group-events anyway.

Potentially, this means double the storyline, double the content, more immersion, and a metric behemoth-load of customization (more in the later levels). Every mage is a red mage when you're using classes. Learn to enjoy your options. It's not like it's hard to manage once you know what you're doing - so what "simplicity" do you have to gain by limiting your behavior so harshly in exchange?

How do I plan my development if it's so complicated?

I can see you've yet to play the game, and I'm glad you're going to give it a shot. You will be, too. You don't need to plan much of anything. The game's not going to make you branch out into a tree and choose one ability over another - your only limits are your time and motivation. Max out that class/job you really love, and then head back to tackle just enough levels on other classes to achieve what singular abilities you want to add to your repertoire. Hell, get them all. EXP is meant to come faster in this game - sinking time into just the grind it takes to be able to play while SE prints and distributes new content disks to your local Electronics Boutique is so old school that it owes Rhalgr a dollar. There's going to be plenty to do once you're maxed out.

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The only think i can say to that is "Thank you! /bow m-(_ _ )-m *click* +1 Like "

Right now i think the armory system is kinda bland, but i can see great potential young ones. Imagine all the ability options we will get when we have like 15-20 DoW/DoM jobs, right now we got like 7-8 not much there, but as more comes out the better it will get.

And secondly, i kinda imagine classes as tier 1 jobs, Jobs as tier 2 jobs >..>, and we might get like a 3rd and 4th tier where you have to complete XX MNK and XX WAR quests then you can unlock like berserker or something that could specialize in alliance/large scale content.

Idk they could actually do a lot with the armory system in the future, just depends on how think and where they wanna take it i guess.

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Originally Posted by Orophin

It was the same before the big class overhauls. As a tank you were expected to have Emulate, a level 50 THM ability. Why the hell would I need to level an offensive caster all the way to 50 to be an effective tank?

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My apologies i did not mean to state it was not that way before hand just that it was more prevalent after. Like i said there were alternatives just few willing to try. I still remember constantly getting rejected on my PGL to do one of the dungeons necessary to continue the story. So i formed my own group and after a couple of tries we were successful. There is a large tendency to latch onto one method and not let go.

Like before the tools they give us in ARR will only go as far as we the community are willing to take them.

I like the thread as well but mainly the plus one I gave you was for ripping your title off of one of the best Local H songs ever. Just saw them here in Denver 2 weeks ago. You rock. Sorry to derail your thread.

You are a magnificent writer, Mr. Moose. I enjoyed every word, and not just because I agree. From an MMO aspect you've outlined everything that makes the system cool. I'd like to add my toughts on the FF aspect.

Class Upgrades = FF
Mid-game class upgrades have been a main staple since the original Final Fantasy - from Bahamut endowing those first players with stronger classes, to the Crystals granting us the ability to change classes, to earning new classes through story-driven quests. Upgrades are such a common feature of the job system it's practically mandatory.

But if you don't take that, here's a breakdown:
FF1: Mid-game class upgrades.
FF3: Class changing
FF5: Interchangeable abilities
FFTactics: All of the above + multi-class level requirements to unlock advanced classes
FF11: Most of the above + story-driven unlock quests for classes
FF14: All of the above.

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Originally Posted by Biggs

I like the thread as well but mainly the plus one I gave you was for ripping your title off of one of the best Local H songs ever. Just saw them here in Denver 2 weeks ago. You rock. Sorry to derail your thread.

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If I had to guess, he's not referencing Local H.... he's probably referencing the 1964 movie Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb (and hence the image and finishing line in my previous post in the thread, also referencing the movie). Local H's song would just be ripping off of that title themselves, given that they come 30 years later in time.

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Originally Posted by Biggs

the plus one I gave you was for ripping your title off of one of the best Local H songs ever.

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Originally Posted by Myranda

If I had to guess, he's not referencing Local H.... he's probably referencing the 1964 movie Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb

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I share an equal appreciation for Seattle-influenced '90s grunge, satire movies, and titles that refer to something commonly seen as the end of the world that, in actuality, has so large an impact on it that it won't be allowed to be, presuming the people in control have any say in the matter.

So, I guess, can it be all of the above?

http://i1310.photobucket.com/albums/...psb84e4ad5.png

I love the armory system and before I get flamed or called white knight i want to point out i played ffxi for quite along time and the running back to the moghouse to change jobs to run back to the party was very much a waste of time.
Being able to change on the fly helps a lot and yes everyone can use any job they want but most people have a job or 2 they love more then others and will play them first, like me im a DRG/WAR kinda guy i'm not a big fan of other jobs (though i got 49 blm and raise on cnj...i think O.o) so it might not be for everyone but its going to stay and i love it

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Aside from the occasional Samurai whipping out a polearm for a bird party or a kiting Paladin swapping to a DEF staff, there really wasn't all that much reason to swap weapons around without getting yelled at in FFXI. Sure, you could be a Paladin with a great sword... but why? How much did we really take advantage of that freedom compared to how likely are we to take advantage of the cross-class skills sans sub-job system?

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This, exactly this. While I understand that people want to be able to choose between a scythe and a greatsword on their Dark Knight, there's still going to be a "best weapon" for the class/job -- and I don't just mean weapon type. I mean that if Ifrit drops a GS and Garuda drops a scythe and the relic is a GS, then you're more than likely going to be using a GS if you've only beat Ifrit, a scythe if you're strong enough to farm Garuda, and a GS again if you've put effort into the relic. The extra "freedom" you get is sort of irrelevant.

In fact, it's so irrelevant that we actually already have it and people continue to complain that we don't. Gladiator can wield longswords or daggers, both mages can go for what XI would have called a club or a staff, all depending on the preference of the player -- and the differences are reflected in the stats, like they are in other games. Daggers do less damage, but hit quicker. Clubs are less powerful but give you the advantage of being able to equip a shield, etc. So there's no reason to assume that when we see Dark Knight we won't see both weapon types implemented, though of course there's no guarantee we will either.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Most other considerations can be filed away as semantics. "Oh, no no. Thieves use daggers. This Dancer is clearly wielding an anlace."

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Again, this is a concern I hear voiced a lot, but one we've already seen a solution to -- in precisely the way you described -- regarding the two mages. They both look like they wield staves and clubs to me, but nonono, you see only thaumaturges get staves and those clubs are actually scepters. The conjurers get radicals and wands instead.

Really, the only difference between this and XI's system as far as weapons are concerned is that I can't use the same individual weapon on multiple classes, and with the gear set system taking those extra weapons out of our inventories, I don't see this as a big issue at all.

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Gear sets are also going to remedy what, for me, had been the only thing making classes less useful in 1.0 -- artifact gear. We all know that, after hitting level 50, AF gear is the easiest decent gear to obtain (since you basically get it incidentally on your way to your level 50 skill). So I'd toss my level 45 gear cuz it wasn't as good and I don't have that kind of inventory space, but since the AF was job only that meant my corresponding class was naked until I got around to farming better gear.

But if we're getting a gear set for each class in addition to each job then I'll be fully gearing my classes and using them often for sure. Might even invest in some of the class-specific gear that previously felt like a waste of inventory slots to me. :P

<3 Armory forever.

Maybe i'm wrong but atleast as a FFXI player it wasn't my impression that players felt the "on the fly class/job changing" was what they wanted to be changed. Discussion usually came to weapons being restricted to a single Job where many liked to have a number of different options depending on the situation. Among other staple complaints about the class system being irrelevent etc etc.. But they are locking out class/job changing inside dungeons and other instanced content so it's not like they left changing on the fly untouched either. Many did complain about that during the 1.23 era.

What it bothers me, or better, worries me about the class/job system, is not how it works now, as I think it's great and have endless possibilities, but how it will evolve in the future. I mean, will it be again like patch 1.20 when new jobs are added and bam, all veteran players already have lvl 50 jobs right there, just having to perform 5 easy quests to get the skills and abilities? The current systems promotes that every time a new job is added a new class has to be introduced, because if the new job class is already in the game, mos players will already have that job at max level on day 1.

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Originally Posted by Dannythm

What it bothers me, or better, worries me about the class/job system, is not how it works now, as I think it's great and have endless possibilities, but how it will evolve in the future. I mean, will it be again like patch 1.20 when new jobs are added and bam, all veteran players already have lvl 50 jobs right there, just having to perform 5 easy quests to get the skills and abilities? The current systems promotes that every time a new job is added a new class has to be introduced, because if the new job class is already in the game, mos players will already have that job at max level on day 1.

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Right, exactly, and that's my big worry about claims that we'll eventually be seeing more than one job stemming from the same class. As far as adding a new class for each new job they add, I don't see that as actually being as big a deal as people make it out to be. It's more work than just doing a new class, yes, but since so many of they job's abilities come from the class it really isn't double the work like people keep saying.

But classes and jobs are so intrinsically related I really do hope we continue to see the 1:1 ratio that we have at present.

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Originally Posted by Dannythm

What it bothers me, or better, worries me about the class/job system, is not how it works now, as I think it's great and have endless possibilities, but how it will evolve in the future. I mean, will it be again like patch 1.20 when new jobs are added and bam, all veteran players already have lvl 50 jobs right there, just having to perform 5 easy quests to get the skills and abilities? The current systems promotes that every time a new job is added a new class has to be introduced, because if the new job class is already in the game, mos players will already have that job at max level on day 1.

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If we ever get more than a 1:1 Ratio on Jobs, I'm going to assume the pre-reqs needed to unlock them will be more steep. Either:
1. They will add them when they add a level increase and you'd need to be level 50+to unlock/quest them. (So sure, a level 50 could unlock the job, but not learn all the skills until higher levels etc.)
2. Require that you have more than 1 class to level 30/1 to 17. Maybe 2 level 30's or a level 50 and a 40 etc. Still a benefit to those who leveled all the jobs, but not as much as level 30/17.
3. Making it that you have to clear certain advanced storyline/content before you can begin to unlock the jobs (like the crystal tower for example).

These are just a couple ways they could do it...there are many more. Personally, I hope they DO give us more than a 1:1 ratio on classes/jobs as I think it would add more texture to each base class. (Gladiator already unlocks a stout tanking role for example, would be great to see it get a pure DD role as well).

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Originally Posted by Kinseykinz

Personally, I hope they DO give us more than a 1:1 ratio on classes/jobs as I think it would add more texture to each base class. (Gladiator already unlocks a stout tanking role for example, would be great to see it get a pure DD role as well).

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At the risk of derailing this topic into a discussion about what might possibly happen in the future... this is a perspective I've seen fairly often that also makes no sense to me. Gladiator doesn't just unlock a stout tanking role, gladiator is a stout tanking role. Could it really be turned into a pure DD with just 5 extra abilities? Not one nearly as viable as WAR, that's for sure, look at its damage output (as of v1.23). DRK is usually the go-to example for what GLA's second job should be (and I believe the example came from Yoshi-P himself, so it has some heavy backing)... but that just doesn't make sense with the current system unless they plan to change everything DRK has ever been.

Plus, in a rant I went off on in a previous topic, that means they need to think of a partner job as well as a corresponding class for every new job they want to add, and that seems to restrict the influx of new jobs more than the armory system as it is now ever has or will.

I suppose it's a discussion that will have to wait until we get a good look at ARR's set up, since Gladiator may now be a viable base for a DD, but if it stays as it is then I just don't see how this could possibly work well.

Anony Moose, after reading the OP if I wasn't in love with you before...

I am now.

Screw his fabulous lore posts. He has my ultimate respect because he spells "Armoury" correctly.

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Originally Posted by Mjollnir

Screw his fabulous lore posts. He has my ultimate respect because he spells "Armoury" correctly.

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That's a matter of opinion. Americans don't care much for adding those extra u's to every other word. :P

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Originally Posted by Orophin

That's a matter of opinion.

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In this case, he means that I'm spelling the name of the battle system correctly. Square Enix actually does localize the English client according to American grammar due to the larger consumer base unless making stylistic choices on named elements, which is what they've done here.

We'd go down to the armory to grab our weapons, but if you called it the "Armory System," you'd be mistaken. Check out the American version of the game's website. It's quite frequently misspelled by players.

http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/static.../nav_class.png

EDIT: I'd pay to see the statistics on how the errors in the spelling of Armoury System compare to the errors in pronunciation of Thaumaturge or Leve, now that I think about it...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Xeia

At the risk of derailing this topic into a discussion about what might possibly happen in the future... this is a perspective I've seen fairly often that also makes no sense to me. Gladiator doesn't just unlock a stout tanking role, gladiator is a stout tanking role. Could it really be turned into a pure DD with just 5 extra abilities? Not one nearly as viable as WAR, that's for sure, look at its damage output (as of v1.23). DRK is usually the go-to example for what GLA's second job should be (and I believe the example came from Yoshi-P himself, so it has some heavy backing)... but that just doesn't make sense with the current system unless they plan to change everything DRK has ever been.

Plus, in a rant I went off on in a previous topic, that means they need to think of a partner job as well as a corresponding class for every new job they want to add, and that seems to restrict the influx of new jobs more than the armory system as it is now ever has or will.

I suppose it's a discussion that will have to wait until we get a good look at ARR's set up, since Gladiator may now be a viable base for a DD, but if it stays as it is then I just don't see how this could possibly work well.

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Well, for starters, jobs only gain '5 abilities' now because we're capped at 50. They will get more abilities as level cap rises. Also, the 'secondary' job that could spin off a class (if they ever had a more than 1:1 ratio), would most likely require more subclasses to unlock. So maybe Gladiator would unlock a DD job...but it would need GLA,LNC, and MRD a certain level to do it...etc.

Also, I never said GLA wasn't a good basic tank...but if you are doing something with a full party+versus harder hitting mobs, you aren't going in there GLA. This implies SE doesn't see GLA as 'tank enough'....in part because in order to make it that it doesn't take a solo GLA 10 hours to kill a bunny, they gave them some DD potential (and the potential to add other classes abilities to their list). So yes, while you could argue that they can pull the bulk of their 'solo dd potential' from other classes, and you'd be correct, the game wouldn't be considered balanced if a player couldn't kill a mob on GLA solo, using only native class abilities that people on other classes could kill, using only their native class abilities. The point is, GLA has 2 sides to it: Damage Dealing and Damage Mitigating. PLD plays up their Damage Mitigating skills, adding to those, but at the expense of raw DD. It would have potentially been just as easy for SE to do the opposite with GLA, and play up their DD side while minimizing their Damage Mitigating Side.

However, my greater point was, the flexibility and potential is there...I never said they are going to do it.

Also, the main point of the OP was just for the author to have a spot where is 'OP' is saved. It's kinda hard to derail a topic outside that, as as long as we're civil, and sorta talking about the same topic, or related rants, the mods won't lock/delete the OP. Either way, this little side-shoot wasn't that far off base as it's one of the reasons people dislike the class:job system. If they allow classes to branch out into multiple jobs, people get irritated due to weapon choice and 'they all seem the same' If instead the keep the 1:1 ratio, people will go 'why didn't they just combine the class into a job, having them separate is silly.'

I got to play devil's advocate a little bit with Gahoo over at GamerEscape on these very topics and figured I might as well chime in. Keep in mind that these aren't necessarily the opinions I subscribe to, as I'd need to see something in practice before I thought it had potential, but let's advocate some devil!

Could Gladiator become a DD with a few extra abilities?

Not really, no - but you make the important point that Gladiator itself is a tank.

When Paladin is on, it gains massive bonuses to things that would normally cause hate corrosion. If you've tried playing both PLD and WAR against the same enemies, you'll notice that WAR just can't keep up when it comes to megabosses. You can sink all the money into enmity and HQ items you want, but over the course of a fight, the biggest hate boosters are abilities and heals whereas the biggest hate losses come from just getting hit. PLD takes individual hits better, losing a few less HP and checking better against MND/VIT calculations from enemy weaponskills, and keeps giving itself little boosters with cures. The takeaway point here is that PLD as is meant to monopolize hate, beyond that it requires outside support.

Turning PLD off and going GLA as a class doesn't mean you're a DD - it means that you have the ability to trade away what would be overkill on hate monopolization solo or in exp parties (smaller, less hard hitting trash mobs whose weaponskill checks are negligible), and in exchange hotbar a bunch of things that will make you require less external support to keep the rotation going.

TL;DR

Going from PLD to GLA shouldn't make you a DD, it should make you more self-sufficient - and it does. You can solo some pretty challenging mobs as a classed-out Gladiator with thoughtfully chosen gear and abilities. Don't get me wrong, it'll take forever, but once you find the comfortable rotation, the thing's an energizer bunny.

Should weapons be 1:1?

Earlier, I was content to say that back when we could, we often didn't. I figure that the door is open if it'll make a difference in battle strategy, but if not, how much should we really care? But that Final Fantasy XI connection is always just a few feet away, so let's address it.

Let's get an easy one out of the way - semantic identity. Step back a moment and remember that we're playing a recreational computer program.

OH, NO, I'VE RUINED YOUR IMMERSION! Eorzea is a giant Skinner Box and we're all just just playing digital Dungeons and Dragons with an automatic calculator and Knee-SOKEN on ambiance!

No matter how you slice your gaming theory, according to the source code, the only difference between a sword and a swordfish is an art packet and some algebra. Should we care what we call a weapon if the only gain is semantic? Hell, Grand Theft Auto had DATs that technically reskinned a baseball bat as a dild-["No." - Moderator Team]. I know. It feels different, psychologically - but is that enough to get your pantalettes in a twist? Let's talk about things that might make a difference.

In Final Fantasy XI, more jobs could equip swords than could equip pants that would provide any protection from a kick to the rolanberries. Sweet freedom, right!? When you wanted a BLU sword, you opened up that list and you just started looking for things that ended in "Scimitar" or "Kalij" because those were the ones that had the stats you wanted.

Isn't it technically the same thing even if FFXIV separates Swords from Scimitars on the market list? We weren't sad earlier that we couldn't equip weapons that sucked for the job, are we now sad that we can't equip weapons that suck for that context? Isn't it a fair trade if SE gets to work with a simpler system and thus design more and more weapons that are tailored to your role?

The only argument I can think of against it at this point is for weapons like Joyeuse and the Kraken Club - but if SE has a 1:1 ratio, don't you think they'll make fun weapons for each role? And will those not probably contain all-around stats for your job; not just the really fun one that makes you look like you're having a Wii seizure?... Wiizure?

"Can you even name enough weapons for all the classes, Anonymoose?"

Yes. Yes, I can. And remember, different magics are different weapons now - but just to stop myself from cheating, I'll name no less than thirty:

Sword, scimitar, great sword, hook sword, katana, great katana, dagger, anelace, kukri, kris, bow, crossbow, mace, club, flail, whip, nunchucks, boomerang, knuckles, claws, war fans, war rings, wristblades, muskets, bombs, axe, great axe, warhammer, scythe, polearm, rod, staff, scepter, book, music, conjury, thaumaturgy, arcanism, mysticism, pets, machines, cards, dice, baton, tonfa, runes, aaaand BELLS (don't look at me like that, I didn't invent Geomancer, okay?)

Again, I've made no opinion yet - but they can do whatever they want and you'll probably not notice or care enough to make a difference in your perception of the game.

As someone whose first MMO was XIV v1.0 (omg shock horror), I walked into the armoury system without preconceived opinions about how weapons and class systems should work.

Ok, so I had a vague idea, but only because my friends wanted me to pick up a "healer" class.

The problems I saw actually had nothing to do with binding weapons to class types, the nature of cross-class abilities, or how you changed classes. Rather, the problems were all about the polish. The idea seemed good, but the execution was... lacking. Oh, and the nasty nasty grind. So I went and played as a miner until the combat system picked up.

Fortunately for us, the 2.0 rebuild will allow them to re-create the system the way it should have been in the first place.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

aaaand BELLS (don't look at me like that, I didn't invent Geomancer, okay?)

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Too bad. I'm still looking forward to it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

I got to play devil's advocate a little bit with Gahoo over at GamerEscape on these very topics and figured I might as well chime in. Keep in mind that these aren't necessarily the opinions I subscribe to, as I'd need to see something in practice before I thought it had potential, but let's advocate some devil!

Should weapons be 1:1?

Earlier, I was content to say that back when we could, we often didn't. I figure that the door is open if it'll make a difference in battle strategy, but if not, how much should we really care? But that Final Fantasy XI connection is always just a few feet away, so let's address it.

Let's get an easy one out of the way - semantic identity. Step back a moment and remember that we're playing a recreational computer program.

OH, NO, I'VE RUINED YOUR IMMERSION! Eorzea is a giant Skinner Box and we're all just just playing digital Dungeons and Dragons with an automatic calculator and Knee-SOKEN on ambiance!

No matter how you slice your gaming theory, according to the source code, the only difference between a sword and a swordfish is an art packet and some algebra. Should we care what we call a weapon if the only gain is semantic? Hell, Grand Theft Auto had DATs that technically reskinned a baseball bat as a dild-["No." - Moderator Team]. I know. It feels different, psychologically - but is that enough to get your pantalettes in a twist? Let's talk about things that might make a difference.

In Final Fantasy XI, more jobs could equip swords than could equip pants that would provide any protection from a kick to the rolanberries. Sweet freedom, right!? When you wanted a BLU sword, you opened up that list and you just started looking for things that ended in "Scimitar" or "Kalij" because those were the ones that had the stats you wanted.

Isn't it technically the same thing even if FFXIV separates Swords from Scimitars on the market list? We weren't sad earlier that we couldn't equip weapons that sucked for the job, are we now sad that we can't equip weapons that suck for that context? Isn't it a fair trade if SE gets to work with a simpler system and thus design more and more weapons that are tailored to your role?

The only argument I can think of against it at this point is for weapons like Joyeuse and the Kraken Club - but if SE has a 1:1 ratio, don't you think they'll make fun weapons for each role? And will those not probably contain all-around stats for your job; not just the really fun one that makes you look like you're having a Wii seizure?... Wiizure?

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Can you save this and tweak it a little when Black Mages whine to White Mages that it's unfair that Black Mages don't get to shoot brown spells out of their wrists? /em innocent smile

Also, I don't disagree with any of the other points you made (I was just trying to paint an example,of if something happened.) Only SE knows the if and how.

Ok, since I was called out by name here - and since it is unclear who is the devil ...

I understand that the difference between the aforementioned dild and baseball bat is a graphic packet - but I think that's a strawman argument. That's akin to saying that the difference between the Lala and Roe is also just an art packet. Or that the difference between starting in Limsa and starting in Gridania is just the first few quests - which are the same except that the graphics of the NPCs you visit is different. It's all 0s and 1s, but it matters.

My point on 1:1 weapon:class/jobs is only this - it serves no purpose (i.e. no material upside) but has a downside (or at the very least a possible downside).

I am willing to hear upsides - but as far as I can tell at best it saves an extra click (since the code for selecting classes can be done just like selecting jobs, so all you'd need to do to actually select your class would be to use the proper soul crystal).

As for the downsides (in no particular order):

1. It means that you cannot have any exceptions. I'd like to see a system where my predominantly dagger wielding class at least has a selection (~15%) of random other weapons he can equip over time. Mix it up a little.

2. It means that you are forced to either (a) fit new desired classes into certain weapon types; or (b) create new classes to fit identified weapon types.

For example, (scenario a) let's say you wanted to add a Ranger class next - well he can't use daggers... or bows... or swords. So you are forced to make the Ranger class (and accompanying job) use what? Let's look at Moose's list... crossbow? boomerang? Sure those technically "work", but we don't really associate some jobs with these weapons. Or take Thief, you can say, well we wanted to have the Thief class use a dagger (so now Rangers are doubly out of luck), but daggers are already taken... so we'll give them kris, a sub-set of daggers (asymmetrical daggers) - which again makes no logical sense.

Or (scenario b), you want to use Scythes as a weapon class, since they are grounded in FF history, are different, etc. So now you are deciding which class to add not because of what is needed in game, or what is demanded, but because you've identified Scythes as the next weapon? That makes no sense from a development standpoint.

3. It's illogical that someone cannot grab, say, a Staff, without changing classes. If you have hands you can hold a Staff. Can you use it? Are you skilled with it? That's a different story. And if the game chooses to represent not being skilled with a weapon with the "you cannot equip this weapon" (like being the wrong level) that seems like a reasonable compromise (vs. allowing you to hold/don anything and taking it out on the player via stat decreases - recall that was what was tried at 1.x launch). But, the mere holding of a type of weapon does not, could not, certainly should not (subjective but so be it) magically change my very profession, skills, etc. The equipping of a magical crystal however - well that makes sense. It's magic. But each and every weapons hardly seems imbued with the same magically energy as a "multi-aspected crystal."

4. The original system was not created with this in mind - and we are fighting against it now. Gladiators were defined as specialists in "the handling of all manner of one-handed blades, from daggers to longswords, be they single or double-edged, straight or curved" (emphasis added). So why then, would a new class, such as a Red Mage, be granted the use of anelaces, let alone kukri or kris (shh... don't tell the Ranger or the Thief, now they might be 3x out of the money). Scimitars? That's a gladiator weapon according to the lore. Pugilists are masters of all "hand-to-hand combat" - meaning they are the ones using knuckles and claws (and presumably war rings and wristblades - whatever those are). So we originally created a system with broad categories - but these broad categories can only come back to haunt us 2, 3, 5, 10 years and 18 classes from now.

Ok that 4 downsides, and enough text... for now...