AoE Placement

I could necro a thread but w.e


If you dont know what an AoE marker is, its this thing (but not this ugly... lol):

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c5...Tombstone1.jpg
http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs71/i/20...xx-d39lq6a.jpg
http://dominion.garena.com/images-up...-abilities.jpg

Now I hope to tell you why ARR will be better off with them, rather then without.

First, it does tell you where its going to hit and you probably have or seen an argument like "its too easy".

But that argument isnt fully thought through. Keep this in mind as we go: games are designed with what the devs know you have at your finger tips - this is why some people are against addons, is because it let players play better so devs made harder gameplay but if you didnt use the addon now its unreasonably balanced.

(Except dont use that argument here because I'm saying dev supplied :P)

Ok with aoe markers you can predict enemy location by placing the aoe down in front of you and calculating the time it will take for the enemy to get to you or to whatever location (adding strategy).

Also this means that faster enemy monsters can get out of your aoe zone because you didnt aim right.

You may be more effective and hit multiple monsters this way as well.

Now that the dev knows you can do these strategic actions they will (or should) design content with that expectation in mind. So "its easy" is an inaccurate assertion unless you doubt Yoshida's competence..


The problems I do see is that some people dont like high action combat (because yes "auto lock Firaballs" is the easy stuff, not self targeting), or that the PS3 controller may be a pain to target with. Anyone that has used a marker targeting system on the PS3 speak up :D. FPS dont count because thats a reticle, need literal "marker" placement.

A thought for making it possible for ps3 users and or people who dont want to aim is that you can cast AoE spells on targets, where it would have a soft lock cursor if you mouse close to the monster or tab onto it will then lock on to the monster and change the aoe marker design to show that its a locked aoe - this means whever that target goes your aoe will pop off. In this way it is a little easier but the most effective combatant would mix it up between these two systems, meaning its still more difficult then before (also this takes away the option of making some spells AoE autolocks like some homing Fire ball but then making others aoe non lock like a giant ice comet).

I hate to add the "everyone is doing it" reason, but .. its true - SE combat system is behind and unless they plan on making it more of a social MMORPG then they should probably beef their combat flexibility and potential.


TL;DR - markers add higher accuracy and allow you to take actions in advance due to predictions, greater variance in abilities*, and it also allows monsters more freedom in their behaviors (extra room for AI).


*If someone could reply about the PS3, that'd help.. lol If you have to add markerplacement with auto target option then the benefit of ability variance goes down - still have better accuracy, being able to predict movements and allowing monsters more freedom though.

I get the idea that these would be useful, but there's the old school part of me that doesn't like it.

Maybe I'm getting old and this fresh new idea frightens me XD

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lady

I get the idea that these would be useful, but there's the old school part of me that doesn't like it.

Maybe I'm getting old and this fresh new idea frightens me XD

---

Lol Well some people just dont want to bother with it - which I guess if thats the majority of SE target audience.. then its a good choice not to do. I dont think SE target audience is that way, but obviously all I got is a feeling lol - I dont have magic powers... at least for this.. ^_^;

But having used aoe markers a lot I feel SE system is very archaic and less strategic.

(But like I said some people just dont want to care about it, like I suck at a lot of RTS games because I dont want to manage all the little guys - but the truth is that is a big part of the strategy and so in that audience if you didnt have that feature you'd be making a bad choice).

"My immersion"

But I am curious to whether there will be a visible marker to show how large of an area your AoE spells will hit. In 1.0 you just kinda had to do it all by feel.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Orophin

"My immersion"

But I am curious to whether there will be a visible marker to show how large of an area your AoE spells will hit. In 1.0 you just kinda had to do it all by feel.

---

If we were in a hardcore game I'd say it should make you have to place the spell but you don't get a visual helper lol - like in Dark Souls. (Not that the big targeting lock on arrow in 1.0 or the circle in 2.0 is very immersive either :P)

But I dont think the audience is honestly that hardcore, and you can reduce the immersion interference by not making it so obnoxious like a lot of games do.

I'd be ok with this as long as it doesn't reach the same levels that GW2 does. Circles everywhere.

The game becomes Stay Out Of The Circle really early on.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LlenCoram

I'd be ok with this as long as it doesn't reach the same levels that GW2 does. Circles everywhere.

The game becomes Stay Out Of The Circle really early on.

---

Agreed! I think some visual cues for -some- spells is great like if Garuda is starting a big aoe attack around her the wind starts picking up in that radius and you can see the build up and roughly where its -not- building up.

Or if there is a meteor coming to you, you can see the shadow and guess where it wont be (having to keep in mind the shadow will grow larger quickly so you see the epicenter and guess from there).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shougun

Agreed! I think some visual cues for -some- spells is great like if Garuda is starting a big aoe attack around her the wind starts picking up in that radius and you can see the build up and roughly where its -not- building up.

Or if there is a meteor coming to you, you can see the shadow and guess where it wont be (having to keep in mind the shadow will grow larger quickly so you see the epicenter and guess from there).

---

See that way I like the idea. An incoming AoE attack, I'd love to see where its going to land. (Like the cracks in the Ifrit Fight) But my spells, I dunno if I'd want that or not.

Some time ago, it was said Yoshi-P will look into implementing something similar, BUT there is nothing sure.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Enma

Some time ago, it was said Yoshi-P will look into implementing something similar, BUT there is nothing sure.

---

That would be very exciting! Cant say how many times I've played more strategy in my mind then I could actually use.. lol

He's definitely got a lot to do - that and he is in crunch time.. poor Yoshida*

/cheer

*Just because he has a lot to do doesnt mean there can be lower standards, SE cant afford to fail again - "FFXIV 3.0" is just going to make the world laugh. (Not saying add this or fail though.. lol they can go forward without it, but it would definitely be backwards compared to most mmo's).

Edit: By can't afford I mean no one is going to let them redeem that number again (3.0), it'll just be a naughty mark on their record hurting their forward momentum and hall of titles - but SE itself still has money to carry on lol.

I kinda liked being pro with my spells.
Meaning I actually had to know what I was doing with them, in order to use them correctly.
Aoes' were one of those things.. Idk about you guys but after some time, I had no problems judging my AOE range.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Solace

I kinda liked being pro with my spells.
Meaning I actually had to know what I was doing with them, in order to use them correctly.
Aoes' were one of those things.. Idk about you guys but after some time, I had no problems judging my AOE range.

---

The AoE rings are quite large, I never had a problem guessing.

My post is more then just showing a ring though. Its about being able to place that ring.

So if there are two monsters you can place it in the middle of those two monsters.

Allows clever placement, and forethought like a monster is out of range but you cast in advance knowing he will be there.

The devs knowing that players have better accuracy and ability can make content strategically harder.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Orophin

"My immersion"

But I am curious to whether there will be a visible marker to show how large of an area your AoE spells will hit. In 1.0 you just kinda had to do it all by feel.

---

If I recall correctly, they said they were not going to implement something like that. Think it had to do with not presenting players with a bloated screen displaying multiple people's aoe ranges and whatnot. It was in a pretty old post, so I don't know if I want to/could find it.

As for aiming your aoes à la LoL... I don't think they'll ever implement that. Remember this won't be a PC exclusive. I think this would be really hard to do and pretty cumbersome for gamepad players or people on the PS3.

they might as well have both systems i guess, and you can pick whichever you like.
in 1.0 you could manually target heals for example, or any spell for that matter; but not ground based targeting...they might as well add that. in some cases it's better to target ground, than some mob; especially if you got someone pulling mobs to 1 spot. but as caster, you might not want to start dropping AOE right away, or you'll get aggro, and die easily :)

People have the capability to get use to it..Why clog up the game with rings?
We have always adjusted to it with AOEs in the past.
No reason to remake the wheel, it's turning just fine.
To me it means you had to be good with that job to not suck with it.
That's absolutely fine by me.

Or options, have it optional, for those who can't wrap their mind around an AOE and it's size.
Idk anyone who ever couldn't figure it out given just a little time.
But what's good for the goose, isn't always good for the gander.
Some people have problems thinking in those terms and I'm all for making it fun for them as well.

I am NOT for giving them an unfair advantage though, which the rings kind of do in pvp if others did not have them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Klefth

As for aiming your aoes à la LoL... I don't think they'll ever implement that. Remember this won't be a PC exclusive. I think this would be really hard to do and pretty cumbersome for gamepad players or people on the PS3.

---

Yeah near the end of my OP I mentioned that. I've never played a ps3 game that let you place things except in a birds eye view - which FFXIV doesn't have. I added a kind of compromise between the two.

In dark souls they let you cast AoE spells at a location but you dont get to place it with a pretty marker, you have to guess. Very hardcore lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Solace

People have the capability to get use to it..Why clog up the game with rings?
We have always adjusted to it with AOEs in the past.
No reason to remake the wheel, it's turning just fine.
To me it means you had to be good with that job to not suck with it.
That's absolutely fine by me.

---

I disagree. I think it made it too easy. Just auto target auto follow cast a spell.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shougun

Yeah near the end of my OP I mentioned that. I've never played a ps3 game that let you place things except in a birds eye view - which FFXIV doesn't have. I added a kind of compromise between the two.

In dark souls they let you cast AoE spells at a location but you dont get to place it, you have to guess. Very hardcore lol



I disagree. I think it made it too easy. Just auto target auto follow cast a spell.

---

You auto targeted an used AOEs? So you didn't care what was around it or if they would also get hit by the aoe, causing aggro and potential wipes to the group?

Was nothing easy about placing an AOE on a moving target and using it at the correct moment, when hate was set.
You had to choose your moment and make sure nothing else would get hit..
Auto targeting had nothing to do with it.
Just because you auto target something doesn't mean you are about to AOE it..
That's just selection..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Solace

You auto targeted an used AOEs? So you didn't care what was around it or if they would also get hit by the aoe, causing aggro and potential wipes to the group?

Was nothing easy about placing an AOE on a moving target and using it at the correct moment, when hate was set.
You had to choose your moment and make sure nothing else would get hit..
Auto targeting had nothing to do with it.
Just because you auto target something doesn't mean you are about to AOE it..
That's just selection..

---

I meant you cast an aoe on a target and then just watch - the monster cant move out of the way unless it really runs away (out of distance). Could even cast it on monster blinking lol, your spell would follow.

Thats easier imo then placing it on the ground where there are more things that can go wrong.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shougun

FPS dont count because thats a rectal, need literal "marker" placement.

---

I haven't played any games that involve my Rectal area, let alone FPS.

But FPS titles are prone to using a reticule.

Either way I am against the idea of using aoe Markers. Spells in FFXIV require targeting on a unit (enemy or friendly) or are self target. Learning the AOE of an ability is down to player skill. We can still use timing with knockbacks and such to cause the AOE to hit more mobs (something I am highly looking forward too)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Junpei

I haven't played any games that involve my Rectal area, let alone FPS.

But FPS titles are prone to using a reticule.

Either way I am against the idea of using aoe Markers. Spells in FFXIV require targeting on a unit (enemy or friendly) or are self target. Learning the AOE of an ability is down to player skill. We can still use timing with knockbacks and such to cause the AOE to hit more mobs (something I am highly looking forward too)

---

ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!


Thank you! lol just heard it my head and it sounded right.. spelled so wrong..

Oh and apparently its reticle not reticule... :D

And knowing the radius on your spells is really easy - I dont get people calling it a "skill". There is much more you can do if you can place it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Orophin

"My immersion"

But I am curious to whether there will be a visible marker to show how large of an area your AoE spells will hit. In 1.0 you just kinda had to do it all by feel.

---

Faint circle, nothing big and flashy and ugly as shit is what we're likely getting. Think of a "pulsating line" type deal.

I dunno I've always liked the idea of aiming spells. It adds skill into casting and not just the regular wear and tear of spamming spells. Also, called shots are cool.

Id be all for this if they could have just my markers show up client side. Or an option to turn off other players'marks. As a whm main id love this for curaga or aoe buffs, because i sometimes have to use someone to daisy chain two groups of party members to hit as many ppl as i can. Would be great to see which member would work best.

Knowing you radius is Really easy for you, i played with soooooo many groups that couldnt manage songs on bard, or choose the right team member to curaga, missing people with protect, screwed up firaga on a group of mobs etc etc etc.

Just because its easy for you, doesnt mean it is for everyone!

ps: reticle and reticule are the same, different spellings of a latin word iirc.

Lol i still remember pre-job patch running to help a tank friend past the second gate and natalan. He was about to die but i did a quick resonance cura from across the chasm on the left for the save XD. If people had range markers more ppl could do cool stuff like this.

I know the OP said some people will say it so I'm gonna say it now:
It makes everything too easy.
Sorry, but I actually ENJOY having to determine where I am safe from an opponent's attack, finding the right distance for Archer skills, having to determine which foes will be affected by my attacks, etc.
It also shows who can actually play and who needs a big blinking circle to not run into Garuda's stormy wind.
There is absolutely NOTHING you can do if AoE markers are added which can't be done already.
There are no new strategies born or anything.
It only makes something that actually requires skill into a "stay out of the circle" / "get everything into the circle" which is something even a braindead person could do.
Like in some other well-known game which starts with a T...:rolleyes:

I don't really care about the immersion part though; markers are kind of part of the UI, they can be shiny and big as much as they want, because they aren't really part of the gameworld but part of the "window" I'm looking through.

AOE placements are not bad, but tend to be a bit slower from my experience, having to click a spell than moving your aoe circle to the desired location for me is a bit slow. Maybe I too em getting old and I just like the old school ways of doing it, if I target a mob than all I need to do is hit my aoe macro and it will automatically do my aoe around or towards the mob I em targeting. Feels faster to me with less dragging AOE placement markers around the map.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lady

I get the idea that these would be useful, but there's the old school part of me that doesn't like it.

Maybe I'm getting old and this fresh new idea frightens me XD

---

It's not really that fresh an idea. It's more an extension of target-based AoEs but with a little more control. It's also almost always used for spells with effects that have to be channeled to persist (Blizzard, Rain of Fire in WoW, Death from Above in TOR).

I like the idea, OP, but the tough part will be in finding spells that fit the bill for ground target AoEs. Only thing that comes to mind is maybe something used by Archers/Bards to shoot arrows at a specific spot. BLMs would be a toss up unless the the -ja line of spells is reimagined as ground target AoE spells while the -ga are target-based AoEs like they currently are.

I support this message

I personally don't like them, but that's just me