If I wanted WoW...

...I would go and play it.


[SIZE="6"]Aggro indicators, raids, instanced dungeons, meaningless quests, exclamation points, auto-attack[/SIZE]

Anyone else a bit apprehensive of where this is all going?

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Originally Posted by gifthorse

...I would go and play it.


[SIZE="6"]Aggro indicators, raids, instanced dungeons, meaningless quests, exclamation points, auto-attack[/SIZE]

Anyone else a bit apprehensive of where this is all going?

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[SIZE="7"]I don't think so, Tim.[/SIZE]

Oh please....
[SIZE="14"]U mad?[/SIZE]

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Originally Posted by Rockne

[SIZE="7"]I don't think so, Tim.[/SIZE]

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lol awsome quote :P
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/w...7716609914.jpg

Aggro indicators: Nah, plenty of games have aggro indicators, and not every mob that is aggressive looks aggressive.(vultures, roselets)

Raids:I think raids were already planned from the start judging by the NMs they released, but almost everyone has raids these days, I guess you could bulk the norm and put in something else(like uh....) but there's definitely a consumer base for raiding.

Instanced dungeons: I understand they break immersion, but so is fighting another group for the first attack on this ancient and terrible evil you're supposed to be vanquishing, then watching them vanquish it, then waiting for this ancient and terrible evil to respawn.

Meaningless quests: ok yeah, meaningless quests suck.

Exclamation points: I could talk to every npc in the city once and if they have a quest that is above my rank I would never know unless i went and talked to them after every level, sure some quests can be hidden but it'd be less annoying if there was a REASON for them to be hidden.

Auto attack: I never liked auto attack but I can see the reasoning behind it.

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Originally Posted by Natabant

lol awsome quote :P
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/w...7716609914.jpg

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How come people on the internet always insist on pulling out some photoshopped image with a quotation on it, or one of those tired, fake motivationals as if anyone's impressed? It's like "alright, alright already. We get the point, you aren't funny. Can we get back to discussion now?"

And why, if I might ask, was FFXI was supposedly such a good game when it didn't have things like Aggro indicators, mindless questing, exclamation markers? How come TERA and Guild Wars 2 managed to captivate audiences with the promise of a combat system without autoattack? How come FFXIV thinks falling back to the status quo and never improving the genre is going to help them gain customers, let alone help them improve their game?

Across the board, people have hated FFXIV. But at what point did they offer aggro indicators and autoattack as a solution? At what point did they say SE was nuts for creating a world where people could play together without instances?

I agree i hate the idea of Raids i'm better off if they added a BCNM,KSNM,ENM,ZNM,MMM, Garrison and whitegate system where you go up the floors and fight boss each 10 floors. Then have the idea of doing dumbass raids for that i just play wow or rift so ya i agree with the outpost on this.

I don't mind if they add everything else beside pointless quest and Raids i don't want to do the same dam raid 5000 time just to get 1gear. I think i like doing sky or sea 5000times because at least it feel different unlike wow raids. I play FFXI for 6years and never got bored i play wow and got sick of doing the same dumbass raid by the 3day.

And hunt 3 rabbit hides, 2 bat wings, vaiouse madragora items, helping a valley girl artist, killing a crab for a clock, getting style tips from a child, running around the city collect stamps, retriving over due libray books, finding lost mail, finding lost reports, getting 2 garlics, finding a spicial milk, etc have tons of meaningful lore right?

@op: *derp*

oh and yeah right, Raids dont have to be the same, you can implement all sorts of interesting things within the context of a "raid" and have it feel fresh and unique. Figuring that out is really the dev team's job.

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Originally Posted by Nephera

Aggro indicators: Nah, plenty of games have aggro indicators, and not every mob that is aggressive looks aggressive.(vultures, roselets)

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Plenty of games are total crap. You would think FFXIV would have enough taste to see that a heinous red symbol is a poor substitute for organic mob behaviours. You can create warning signals without throwing them in the players' face.

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Raids:I think raids were already planned from the start judging by the NMs they released, but almost everyone has raids these days, I guess you could bulk the norm and put in something else(like uh....) but there's definitely a consumer base for raiding.

Instanced dungeons: I understand they break immersion, but so is fighting another group for the first attack on this ancient and terrible evil you're supposed to be vanquishing, then watching them vanquish it, then waiting for this ancient and terrible evil to respawn.

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Yeah, I'm just saying: they were quick to start with the "raids" and "instanced dungeons" when they never mentioned such things earlier, likely in a bid to appeal to what they perceive as the WoW audience.

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Meaningless quests: ok yeah, meaningless quests suck.

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Exclamation points: I could talk to every npc in the city once and if they have a quest that is above my rank I would never know unless i went and talked to them after every level, sure some quests can be hidden but it'd be less annoying if there was a REASON for them to be hidden.

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True, but like the aggro-indicator mentioned earlier, aren't there more organic and natural ways to achieve the same effect? For example, instead of an exlamation mark, an NPC could call out to you or gesture with beckoning hands. An exclamation mark is just lazy. But I guess SE is pretty notorious in that regard.

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Auto attack: I never liked auto attack but I can see the reasoning behind it.

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Me too: poor reasoning.

actually if you think about it ffxi had raids also. Dynamis etc were raids.

I think you guys are going overboard with this ffxiov becoming WoW. And there is a difference between ffxiv , tera and gw2. No one complained about those games and prob didn't over speculate. A;so gw2 as a much more dynamic action based fighting style. same for tera. And dcuo. ffxi didn't and ppl wanred auto attack from ffxi. Don't blame SE, most ppl wanted ffxiv2 for ffxiv. And now they are getting it with casual friendly features.

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Originally Posted by Nephera

oh and yeah right, Raids dont have to be the same, you can implement all sorts of interesting things within the context of a "raid" and have it feel fresh and unique. Figuring that out is really the dev team's job.

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It up too what they call "Raids" is if it like a FFXI type system but better and the only reason they calling it "Raids" so wow players could know wtf it is then ya i don't mind. Because i play wow and playing it now and most wow players are brainless.

FFXI had enough meaningless quests. Someone already gave a few examples.
FFXI also had raids (Dynamis).
FFXI also had auto attack.
FFXI also had instances (Dynamis, BCNM and all the other stuff they added later).

So with the same reasoning: Since FFXI was released before WoW, I think WoW copied FFXI. WoW sucks!

So the only two valid points you have are the aggro indicators and the exclamation marks.

Aggro indicators: Why is this such a big deal? You only have to run close to it once to find out if it is aggressive or not. The only thing the aggro indicator did was the take away that first encounter, not a big deal. Future patch will include a turn off mode, so problem solved.

Exclamation marks: 99% of the FFXI players looked stuff up on wiki or another database site anyway. Don't act like everyone was talking to every single NPC, every few levels, to find out if they had a quest.

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Originally Posted by Nephera

Auto attack: I never liked auto attack but I can see the reasoning behind it.

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I personally love auto-attack, but thats because I dont really feel like mindlessly smashing one button over and over again, pretty boring to me, I like having the regular/weak attack be automatic and have a bunch of skills or weapon skills that have to be used to kill something, I prefer battles that take a little more skill, battles that a FF game should have.

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Originally Posted by gifthorse

How come people on the internet always insist on pulling out some photoshopped image with a quotation on it, or one of those tired, fake motivationals as if anyone's impressed? It's like "alright, alright already. We get the point, you aren't funny. Can we get back to discussion now?"

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Uhh.. chill out? Just because you get your panties in a wad from photoshoped pictures doesnt mean everyone does, and it just so happens that I liked the show Home Improvement :(

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Originally Posted by gifthorse

Plenty of games are total crap. You would think FFXIV would have enough taste to see that a heinous red symbol is a poor substitute for organic mob behaviours. You can create warning signals without throwing them in the players face.

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Whoa plenty of these crap games are in a better financial situation and have better reviews than XIV right now, we gotta be pragmatic man. The problem with gestures is that not every monster would turn and threaten you but not actually attack, especially thinking humanoid mobs who's motivations you do not exactly know.

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Originally Posted by gifthorse

Yeah, I'm just saying: they were quick to start with the "raids" and "instanced dungeons" when they never mentioned such things earlier, likely in a bid to appeal to what they perceive as the WoW audience.

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I think its more of an mmo audience thing, the term certainly predates WoW and the oldest raid boss i can remember (probably not the oldest) was legion in dark age of camelot.

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Originally Posted by gifthorse

True, but like the aggro-indicator mentioned earlier, aren't there more organic and natural ways to achieve the same effect? For example, instead of an exlamation mark, an NPC could call out to you or gesture with beckoning hands. An exclamation mark is just lazy. But I guess SE is pretty notorious in that regard.

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I suppose they could have had gestures, but since very little is client side those npcs might just end up waving to everybody passing by all the time. I think it would have been better if they had used something a little more eloquent than an exclamation mark that served the same purpose. Much like i think the aggro icon should look better than something that was done in five minutes using the star and gradient tools.

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Originally Posted by gifthorse

Me too: poor reasoning.

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Well you have to ask would the game really be that much better if you kept pressing 1 vs toggling something on that basically pressed 1 for you? [assuming they implement it like this]

I'll have to defer to champions online for this one.

In CO you get an energy builder power, basically an auto attack toggle. When this power hits an enemy it builds energy (What is tantamount to tp), and you use this energy to execute the rest of your attacks save a few special utility attacks. The system is REALLY similar to what we have at the moment but with automatic attacks and it does its job fairly well and keeps the game running at a fast pace.

People are still crying about the aggro icon?

Y'all postin in a troll thread. :v

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Originally Posted by Corrderio

People are still crying about the aggro icon?

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It just drives me crazy that they could have made a little skull or something instead of the icon they have with just a LITTLE more effort.

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Originally Posted by TessaJalloh

Y'all postin in a troll thread. :v

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Normal thread, troll thread.. theyre all starting to blend together D:

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Originally Posted by Evenstar

FFXI had enough meaningless quests. Someone already gave a few examples.

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What? So now that justifies its presence in FFXIV? Make sense why don't you.

I remember that the first time I saw a few screenshots for the game, I immediately thought this game was going to be called World of Final Fantasy XIV: Freedom Unite.

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Originally Posted by Malakhim

I remember that the first time I saw a few screenshots for the game, I immediately thought this game was going to be called World of Final Fantasy XIV: Freedom Unite.

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WoFF:FU? Should probably drop the numerics.

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Originally Posted by MonsieurVerde

WoFF:FU? Should probably drop the numerics.

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That acronym made me hungry for waffles.

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Originally Posted by Nephera

Whoa plenty of these crap games are in a better financial situation and have better reviews than XIV right now, we gotta be pragmatic man. The problem with gestures is that not every monster would turn and threaten you but not actually attack, especially thinking humanoid mobs who's motivations you do not exactly know.

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Neither would they summon a floating red symbol above their face to advertise it.

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I think its more of an mmo audience thing, the term certainly predates WoW and the oldest raid boss i can remember (probably not the oldest) was legion in dark age of camelot.

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They seem to have adopted a strategy of emulating rather than inventing though. While some small changes to their vocabulary are expected (using 'raid' to denote a certain type of content, using 'patch' as opposed to version update) , they do give off a distinct impression of trying too hard to copy things. They've said a thousand times that "people expected certain things in our game that are now industry standard" etc etc., so it's obvious they would then try and introduce some "industry standards" into the game. But to me it seems like SE has just latched onto this idea and basically pandered to any seemingly stupid and detrimental demands people have made, be they aggro indicators or exclamation mark quests. By trying so hard to seem in-touch with the MMO industry, they lost touch with their game and its good features.

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I suppose they could have had gestures, but since very little is client side those npcs might just end up waving to everybody passing by all the time.

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Um, if the game can load in an icon without trouble, it can load in an animation. And you know it.

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Well you have to ask would the game really be that much better if you kept pressing 1 vs toggling something on that basically pressed 1 for you? [assuming they implement it like this]

I'll have to defer to champions online for this one.

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Spamming actions is a crappy way to make a battle system, and that's the only reason people want auto-attack: because it's the lesser of two evils. Little do they know, auto-attack is still crap in the end.

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Originally Posted by Natabant

Normal thread, troll thread.. theyre all starting to blend together D:

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Oh, how profound! The only reason everyone around here thinks every single thing is a "troll thread" is because they need a better vocabulary. Maybe if they knew some more descriptives other than troll, the world might be a better place for them.

For them and for everyone else who has to listen to them.

I heard crying and moaning imrpoves the game even more, carry on OP.

Like most have said, ALOT of that stuff predates FFXI & WoW. Both have quests, both have "raids" i.e instances. So all you are doing is making a pointless thread about an aggro icon which they have mentioned they will be adding a toggle function?

BCNM, KSNM, MMM, Sky Gods, Dynamis these are ALL raids and the list goes on, these are all from FFXI WHICH you supposedly didn't get bored of so why complain now when they say they are adding more? I think the term "raid" is just used so most if not all MMO players know that it will be instanced type content.

Edit: Also I'd take the auto-attack and being able to compile strats within the LS while fighting a mob, rather than having to stop smashing the same button over&over and losing DPS.

It's not really an exclamation mark like in Wow. It's more a thought bubble. People with these are merely more distressed or seem to be thinking about something. SO it's more an an in-character tone they did it in rather than the brightly lit exclamation marks in WoW or the ones not lit indicating future quests.

Also, the dialogue alone is worth it for some quests. >_> Especially if you refuse.

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Aggro indicators, raids, instanced dungeons, meaningless quests, exclamation points, auto-attack

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These are all the things I want to see in the game, so keep it up SE and you'll get my money :)

@gifthorse whats really getting tiring is how everyone is bringing up WoW everytime they see something they don't like.

Stop whining and suck it up.

As the person above stated FF11 had plenty of raids, Nyzel, Assault and Besieged where all instances aswell.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

These are all the things I want to see in the game, so keep it up SE and you'll get my money :)

@gifthorse whats really getting tiring is how everyone is bringing up WoW everytime they see something they don't like.

Stop whining and suck it up.

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Couldn't have said it better myself, wish we had afew more people like you on my server.

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Originally Posted by AntonyB

I heard crying and moaning imrpoves the game even more, carry on OP.

Like most have said, ALOT of that stuff predates FFXI & WoW. Both have quests, both have "raids" i.e instances. So all you are doing is making a pointless thread about an aggro icon which they have mentioned they will be adding a toggle function?

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Well it's not about each one of those changes in isolation, it's about the direction the game has taken overall ever since they admitted the game had flaws. Their solution to the flaws, rather than improving upon them in their own vision, was basically to say: "oh let's just compromise on our own artistic integrity and copy WoW or any other game we can get our hands on". It's tacky how quickly they put in fetch quests and aggro indicators in homage to WoW, and how easily they pandered to every fickle demands of the players.

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Edit: Also I'd take the auto-attack and being able to compile strats within the LS while fighting a mob, rather than having to stop smashing the same button over&over and losing DPS.

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Um, Hellloooo, if you miss out on attacking because you were typing, you can just spam your next attacks in rapid succession to make up for it. While you were typing, your stamina bar filled up. That's what the stamina bar is there for. Jeesh.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

These are all the things I want to see in the game, so keep it up SE and you'll get my money :)

@gifthorse whats really getting tiring is how everyone is bringing up WoW everytime they see something they don't like.

Stop whining and suck it up.

As the person above stated FF11 had plenty of raids, Nyzel, Assult and Besieged where all instances aswell.

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Pfft, I never should have bought your overpriced dyes when the game came out.

Anyway, I am not afraid of WoW, I am afraid of FFXIV losing its freaking soul.

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Originally Posted by gifthorse

Well it's not about each one of those chanes in isolation, it's about the direction the game has taken overall ever since they admitted the game had flaws. Their solution to the flaws, rather than improving upon them in their own vision, was basically to say: "oh let's just compromise on our own artistic integrity and copy WoW or any other game we can get our hands on". It's tacky how quickly they put in fetch quests and aggro indicators in homage to WoW, and how easily they pandered to every fickle demands of the players.



Um, Hellloooo, if you miss out on attacking because you were typing, you can just spam your next attacks in rapid succession to make up for it. While you were typing, your stamina bar filled up. That's what the stamina bar is there for. Jeesh.

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Yea and then you have no Stamina for when u actually need it for stuff like Taunt/Provoke because they use an assload. Good thinking batman.

Like the person posts on the other page, quit whining and suck it up. People always compare stuff to WoW, yet FFXI was released before WoW was and FFXI/WoW both have similar game styles since guess what? They are MMOs. I think with the amount of rage you have over afew things within a game which you pay no monthly fee for currently till it is fixed that you would be better off playing something like Hanah Montana. Just a thought.

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Originally Posted by gifthorse

Well it's not about each one of those chanes in isolation, it's about the direction the game has taken overall ever since they admitted the game had flaws. Their solution to the flaws, rather than improving upon them in their own vision, was basically to say: "oh let's just compromise on our own artistic integrity and copy WoW or any other game we can get our hands on". It's tacky how quickly they put in fetch quests and aggro indicators in homage to WoW, and how easily they pandered to every fickle demands of the players.

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Again FF11 had fetch quests, don't you remember those boring fame quests ?

FF11 had auto attack also, and the devs have already said they are allowing players to turn off the aggro icon why you keep bring up WoW for ?

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Originally Posted by gifthorse

Well it's not about each one of those chanes in isolation, it's about the direction the game has taken overall ever since they admitted the game had flaws. Their solution to the flaws, rather than improving upon them in their own vision, was basically to say: "oh let's just compromise on our own artistic integrity and copy WoW or any other game we can get our hands on". It's tacky how quickly they put in fetch quests and aggro indicators in homage to WoW, and how easily they pandered to every fickle demands of the players.



Um, Hellloooo, if you miss out on attacking because you were typing, you can just spam your next attacks in rapid succession to make up for it. While you were typing, your stamina bar filled up. That's what the stamina bar is there for. Jeesh.

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Can you not type a paragraph before your stamina bar goes from Empty to Full? O_o All people really need to do is type faster or go in knowing the strategy. Oh, and Taunt doesn't increase your DPS.

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Originally Posted by AntonyB

Yea and then you have no Stamina for when u actually need it for stuff like Taunt/Provoke because they use an assload. Good thinking batman.

Like the person posts on the other page, quit whining and suck it up. People always compare stuff to WoW, yet FFXI was released before WoW was and FFXI/WoW both have similar game styles since guess what? They are MMOs. I think with the amount of rage you have over afew things within a game which you pay no monthly fee for currently till it is fixed that you would be better off playing something like Hanah Montana. Just a thought.

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Oh, so instead of decreasing the stamina costs for taunt and provoke, we should just automate and simplify the entire combat system to easy-mode. Good thinking, inferior batman.

Whatever history lessons you think prove your point, it does little to assuage the fact that FFXIV is decaying at the moment into pandering, soulless drivel.

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Originally Posted by gifthorse

Um, if the game can load in an icon without trouble, it can load in an animation. And you know it.

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No i meant waving at every single person on the street would look uh..bad, some npcs are in somewhat high traffic areas.

Though spamming the server for requests for an animation from that npc could also go badly.

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Originally Posted by gifthorse

They seem to have adopted a strategy of emulating rather than inventing though. While some small changes to their vocabulary are expected (using 'raid' to denote a certain type of content, using 'patch' as opposed to version update) , they do give off a distinct impression of trying too hard to copy things. They've said a thousand times that "people expected certain things in our game that are now industry standard" etc etc., so it's obvious they would then try and introduce some "industry standards" into the game. But to me it seems like SE has just latched onto this idea and basically pandered to any seemingly stupid and detrimental demands people have made, be they aggro indicators or exclamation mark quests. By trying so hard to seem in-touch with the MMO industry, they lost touch with their game and its good features.

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mmm, I can't say I know exactly whats going on at square, but I doubt they're eschewing game theory to cater to demands, I honestly hope they have sound logic behind their decisions. One thing you have to keep in mind is that they came across as thinking this game would be a golden goose when it went live, going so far as to laugh when asked questions about features like jumping or auction houses and saying no one would feel the need for these features, it really felt like they were out of touch all the way through and so they're compensating quite a bit to make it clear that they made a mistake that they want to correct.

But lets not forget that copycatting is symptomatic of the genre.

The MMO industry is filled with features that are copied from other games with their own spin on them for a number of reasons(Heroic opportunities> Fellowship Manuevers> Battle Regimens). Being different can be punished and rewarded, so the typical choice is to go "How can we fit this framework but put as much of our own into it as possible"(or in rift's case: ok lets take the best of what everyone else did and also put in massive zone wide public quests). Yes XIV is taking some things from the basic frameworks of other MMOs, but if its really going to be a complete copy has yet to be seen. Heck it COULD end up being a complete copy but we'll have to wait till they announce more things to see if thats true.

Edit: WOW THATS A LOT OF TEXT TLDR: they gotta make some concessions to the genre or really really go all the way, and its much safer to make the concessions and innovate in that framework as much as possible.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

Again FF11 had fetch quests, don't you remember those boring fame quests ?

FF11 had auto attack also, and the devs have already said they are allowing players to turn off the aggro icon why you keep bring up WoW for ?

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I don't remember claiming FFXI was perfect.

And whether they allow for players to toggle the aggro indicator on or off, it's still patronising its players. Instead of looking for a real solution to cushion players into the world, they just slap on an ugly bandaid that compromises on their artistic integrity and ruins the immersion they were trying so hard to create.

If they are going to turn this game into a treadmill that takes you from point A to B in the most mathematical and least dangerous way, and for a quest that doesn't even have any substance, then what's the point. You could get that anywhere.

Copycatting is probably why a lot of developers are starting to copyright their game systems. Nomura Copyrighted the system for Parasite Eve's new combat mechanics and licensed it out to feel plus for Mindjack

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

Copycatting is probably why a lot of developers are starting to copyright their game systems. Nomura Copyrighted the system for Parasite Eve's new combat mechanics and licensed it out to feel plus for Mindjack

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Urgh, that was mistake. Mindjack is a terrible game.