Be Patient Learning Dark Knight It's fun and rewarding.

I need to make this post because a lot of new dark knights are having bad experiences with it in dungeons and then go complain on the forums without taking the time to analyze what went wrong.

I understand warrior is a lot easier after getting raw intuition but that broken ability is no reason to write dark off as "squishy". When you play dark knight in dungeons, dont use all your mits at the same time, space them out so you always have something to rotate as one is falling off. Reprisal is a 60 second cool down and should be used frequently when big pulling now that its an aoe debuff.

Living Dead can be amazing when you explain and communicate it's use to your healer. After falling below 1hp, living dead can full heal you upon using an aoe weaponskill on a big pull.

after level 70 you NEED to use the blackest night whenever it comes off cooldown during dungeon pulls and it will eat a lot of damage for you when used in conjunction with other mitigation skills.

If you mitigate correctly you shouldn't need to sit on abyssal drain for a clutch heal but if your healer and dps are bots then its an option but try to use it frequently in trash pulls for the damage.

DO NOT FORGET TO USE ARMS LENGTH AS A MITIGATION SKILL AT ALL LEVELS! A lot people complain about dark lacking mits at really low levels but I'm positive they arent using arms length and reprisal on cooldown. Arms length inflicts a 20% slow on all enemies that hit you while it's active and that effecitively makes it a 20% damage mit for the whole trash pack.

If you can perform well on Dark Knight I assure it will make you a better tank when you try to learn the other jobs.

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Originally Posted by Reginald_Cain

I need to make this post because a lot of new dark knights are having bad experiences with it in dungeons and then go complain on the forums without taking the time to analyze what went wrong.

I understand warrior is a lot easier after getting raw intuition but that broken ability is no reason to write dark off as "squishy". When you play dark knight in dungeons, dont use all your mits at the same time, space them out so you always have something to rotate as one is falling off. Reprisal is a 60 second cool down and should be used frequently when big pulling now that its an aoe debuff.

Living Dead can be amazing when you explain and communicate it's use to your healer. After falling below 1hp, living dead can full heal you upon using an aoe weaponskill on a big pull.

after level 70 you NEED to use the blackest night whenever it comes off cooldown during dungeon pulls and it will eat a lot of damage for you when used in conjunction with other mitigation skills.

If you mitigate correctly you shouldn't need to sit on abyssal drain for a clutch heal but if your healer and dps are bots then its an option but try to use it frequently in trash pulls for the damage.

DO NOT FORGET TO USE ARMS LENGTH AS A MITIGATION SKILL AT ALL LEVELS! A lot people complain about dark lacking mits at really low levels but I'm positive they arent using arms length and reprisal on cooldown. Arms length inflicts a 20% slow on all enemies that hit you while it's active and that effecitively makes it a 20% damage mit for the whole trash pack.

If you can perform well on Dark Knight I assure it will make you a better tank when you try to learn the other jobs.

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Also macros for certain abilities are amazing. Want to add for living dead: "blood price is being paid. Let me fall to 1 hp and ic an heal back to full. Saving you resources" so the healers know

I think that is the problem. When you go from leveling warrior or PLD(at later levels), switching to DRK can be brutal because you dont have self healing like that anymore, so you have to learn to depend on the healer and your mitigation more. This is more of a tank design and content design problem but that is why leveling DRK is probably the worst to level out of the 4 tanks. Its great at endgame but leveling its really bad.

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Originally Posted by Derio

I think that is the problem. When you go from leveling warrior or PLD(at later levels), switching to DRK can be brutal because you dont have self healing like that anymore, so you have to learn to depend on the healer and your mitigation more. This is more of a tank design and content design problem but that is why leveling DRK is probably the worst to level out of the 4 tanks. Its great at endgame but leveling its really bad.

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Part of the problem is that the Dark Knight reworks over the years removed defensive cooldowns from the job without adjusting at which level it gets the ones that it still has.
Both Paladin and Warrior gain additional mitigation from 50-60, while Dark Knight doesn't get it until 70.

Before it at least had Dark Dance at 34 and Dark Passenger at 40, and while RNG mitigation wasn't amazing it was noticeable when they were removed.

I think OP just found out one of the reason some jobs are so easy to play:
People come crying but, actually, they're players who are just bad at this game.

Yeah, after hearing everyone bash DRK i haven't even made an attempt to try it. I love playing tanks and have the other 3 at max level but everyone says its garbage compared to the other options.

The least enjoyable tank job of all I leveled and played. I'd rather point them to the other ones than have them play this Job, with weird mitigations and being reworked at every expansion. Not to mention the loss of quite a few cool actions (like Plunge).

If they want to go for the edgy, I recommend them playing Reaper.

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Originally Posted by Arrius

The least enjoyable tank job of all I leveled and played. I'd rather point them to the other ones than have them play this Job, with weird mitigations and being reworked at every expansion. Not to mention the loss of quite a few cool actions (like Plunge).

If they want to go for the edgy, I recommend them playing Reaper.

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This is the kind of person I was talking about in my previous comment LOL

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

Part of the problem is that the Dark Knight reworks over the years removed defensive cooldowns from the job without adjusting at which level it gets the ones that it still has.
Both Paladin and Warrior gain additional mitigation from 50-60, while Dark Knight doesn't get it until 70.

Before it at least had Dark Dance at 34 and Dark Passenger at 40, and while RNG mitigation wasn't amazing it was noticeable when they were removed.

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I feel like the easiest solution to this is just to push Oblation down to that level range and make the you get the 2nd charge at lv 82.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

I feel like the easiest solution to this is just to push Oblation down to that level range and make the you get the 2nd charge at lv 82.

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Dunno why we can't just have TBN at around 50-60 considering Warrior gets their short CD then. I don't think having TBN on early levels would exactly break the game.

Oblation works I suppose its just a very bland skill comparatively

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Dunno why we can't just have TBN at around 50-60 considering Warrior gets their short CD then. I don't think having TBN on early levels would exactly break the game.

Oblation works I suppose its just a very bland skill comparatively

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Lore reasons. Lv70 dark knight job quest.

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Originally Posted by Brandr

Lore reasons. Lv70 dark knight job quest.

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So no reason at all, got it.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Dunno why we can't just have TBN at around 50-60 considering Warrior gets their short CD then. I don't think having TBN on early levels would exactly break the game.

Oblation works I suppose its just a very bland skill comparatively

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Warrior is once again throwing everyone's perception of tank balance in dungeons out of the window. I found dungeons on PLD absolutely miserable at low levels: your magic combo doesn't heal you, your base combo doesn't heal you, Sheltron is weak. The whole job is carried by Clemency until the kit starts functioning mid-80s, and pressing Clemency when you have a Glare spamming hero behind you feels horrible.

DRK got buffed very recently with Abyssal Drain now being an extremely strong button in dungeons and Dark Mind now being usable on trash, it absolutely doesn't lack in tanking tools. Once you get TBN in the 70-81 level bracket DRK is more durable than GNB or PLD, putting TBN at level 50-60 would make those tanks feel abysmal by comparison.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

So no reason at all, got it.

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I see, you're a cutscene skipper. Or you wouldn't have said such nonsense.
The whole story of 60-70 job quests leads to the creation of "The Blackest Night".
Did you run from school or something?

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Originally Posted by Brandr

I see, you're a cutscene skipper. Or you wouldn't have said such nonsense.
The whole story of 60-70 job quests leads to the creation of "The Blackest Night".
Did you run from school or something?

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Who cares about a job quest from stormblood being the reason why we can't have a tank mitigation eariler.

Yeah I skip sometimes who cares, It's like if their was a lore reason why Paladins had no self healing until level 82 (outside clemency which is a damage loss) I'd want to change that, Story should not come before gameplay. Story shouldn't mean your job feels worse at early levels because "lore"

Even further because we hold up the old story we bar people from entering ff14, telling people you have to sit through 200 hours of MSQ to catch up to your friends or pay a extra 40$ is bad game design.

I like the Story but It shouldn't be a excuse for skills not to exist at certain levels or for the game to be worser off.

Admitting to yourself is the first step of solving a problem.

I wouldn't take job quests as a justification simply because the devs themselves have already shown they don't really care.
Anyone done the Astrologian quests after the 3 reworks it got? None of those make sense anymore.

Don't be out here telling people there is stuff to learn about DRK and such.
Or the sandpaper of the devs wilkl come down on it too.

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Originally Posted by Brandr

Admitting to yourself is the first step of solving a problem.

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What should I admit to myself, that they shouldn't balance because of old stormblood job quests says no?

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Originally Posted by Terhix

Warrior is once again throwing everyone's perception of tank balance in dungeons out of the window. I found dungeons on PLD absolutely miserable at low levels: your magic combo doesn't heal you, your base combo doesn't heal you, Sheltron is weak. The whole job is carried by Clemency until the kit starts functioning mid-80s, and pressing Clemency when you have a Glare spamming hero behind you feels horrible.

DRK got buffed very recently with Abyssal Drain now being an extremely strong button in dungeons and Dark Mind now being usable on trash, it absolutely doesn't lack in tanking tools. Once you get TBN in the 70-81 level bracket DRK is more durable than GNB or PLD, putting TBN at level 50-60 would make those tanks feel abysmal by comparison.

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Let's take a step back a little here, as I've actually said they should likely hard nerf Raw Int, inside of AOE situations because it's just broken to the point it takes gameplay away from healers, No Job should have a benediction on a 25s CD that lasts three hits, even if it's only AOE. I think Warrior is actually bad for balance, my main point was if war (and pld) can have their short mits eariler I don't see the harm in other tanks having mits eariler, I would even say a nerfed version of TBN but that would be hard to implement with how it works currently.

I mean I would agree PLD feels VERY Miserable until much later in it's levelling experience, I'd advocate for moving up magic attacks and some sustain such a HS regen but halved to standard sheltron so PLD feels better in general. I think PLD is way more rotationally miserable, its mitigations become fine if you have some small amount of sustain. PLD's the worst example of a how a job should work in ARR-HW, It's always been my go to example of why we should move down some skills because PLD feels like some weird gladiator that has nothing to do with white magic until way too late.

Adding TBN early wouldn't really break the game, I also think Heart of stone should be 10 levels lower, Tanks in general having their short more reactive mits makes them more fun for early content which is what I mostly care about, If you have to slightly adjust somethings for DRK such as maybe Abyssal Drain is way weaker until other tanks get a bunch of extra sustain then so be it, that's fine with me, I just would like to press my short mitigation buttons at lower levels, I don't mind if tanks are overall still nerfed or tuned down to make that more feasible.

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Originally Posted by Brandr

I see, you're a cutscene skipper. Or you wouldn't have said such nonsense.
The whole story of 60-70 job quests leads to the creation of "The Blackest Night".
Did you run from school or something?

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Ok this is unnessesary first of and secondly they can make a weaker shield called something else until you get the tbn. Are you seriously so short sighted in your thinking that you assume the reason he made his suggestion was because he hates story? That's a huge leap and not to mention lots of job abilities learned thru job quest have been deleted. sit the heck down buddy

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Who cares about a job quest from stormblood being the reason why we can't have a tank mitigation eariler.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Yeah I skip sometimes who cares,
(...)
Even further because we hold up the old we bar people from entering ff14, telling people you have to sit through 200 hours of MSQ to catch up to your friends or pay a extra 40$ is bad game design.

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No is judging you, my dude.
And I actually agree with you that 200 hours is too much for any newcomer.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Story should not come before gameplay. Story shouldn't mean your job feels worse at early levels because "lore"

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Sometimes.
While other jobs are really detached from MSQ and their own job quest, Dark Knight is very heavy on the lore and story section. The whole Heavenward expansion is a huge Dark Knight story. It's whole philosophy is based on the idea of fighting, judging and punishment evil people who will never face justice because they're the ones pulling the strings of society, and what happens in the end? We fight, judge and punish the leadership of Ishgard.

Summarizing, if it were any other job or skill, I'd agree with you, but TBN is so intricically connected to the job quest, I think it's insane to ask for TBN to be acquired earlier.

Maybe a weaker version of TBN would be cool.

A weaker version of TBN is ok. They can just reuse the shadowskin animation that they took away when they made rampart universal for tanks. The shield could be 10% of health.

Fixing PLD in early levels is another discussion.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Let's take a step back a little here, as I've actually said they should likely hard nerf Raw Int, inside of AOE situations because it's just broken to the point it takes gameplay away from healers, No Job should have a benediction on a 25s CD that lasts three hits, even if it's only AOE.

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Agreed, though I do think it's worth pointing out that Abyssal Drain is also a free bene (especially at lower level with how healing potency scales relative to max HP), just with a 1min cooldown, and DRK gets it at the same level WAR gets RI.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

I think Warrior is actually bad for balance, my main point was if war (and pld) can have their short mits eariler I don't see the harm in other tanks having mits eariler, I would even say a nerfed version of TBN but that would be hard to implement with how it works currently.

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It would have to be a heavily nerfed version of TBN given how weak (non-Holy) Sheltron is compared to TBN.

I do agree SE should have a look at how tanks play at lower levels, but that's a broader problem of just most if not all jobs having really weird progression at low levels. That's really out of the scope of whether DRK is somehow inherently worse than other tanks while leveling - it's not, except for Warrior, but all tanks are just worse than Warrior in dungeons once RI comes online.

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Originally Posted by Terhix

[...]but all tanks are just worse than Warrior in dungeons once RI comes online.

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*something something* "Raw Intuition / Bloodwhetting would still be fine if it only triggered once per weaponskill because that's still a net 1200 / 2000 heal potency on top of some extra mitigation".

Equilibrium is considered based and everything for how much it heals on a 60s CD, Raw Int / BW would be virtually the same but on a shorter CD. It would also actually benefit from stacking the recovery bonuses of Rampart & Thrill of Battle for itself in dungeon packs.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

*something something* "Raw Intuition / Bloodwhetting would still be fine if it only triggered once per weaponskill because that's still a net 1200 / 2000 heal potency on top of some extra mitigation".

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I'm pretty sure I'm on the record on these forums advocating for this exact change, so yes.

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Originally Posted by Terhix

I'm pretty sure I'm on the record on these forums advocating for this exact change, so yes.

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Oh I meant no offense either way - just voiced my own opinion on the matter.

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Originally Posted by Brandr

While other jobs are really detached from MSQ and their own job quest, Dark Knight is very heavy on the lore and story section. The whole Heavenward expansion is a huge Dark Knight story. It's whole philosophy is based on the idea of fighting, judging and punishment evil people who will never face justice because they're the ones pulling the strings of society, and what happens in the end? We fight, judge and punish the leadership of Ishgard.

Summarizing, if it were any other job or skill, I'd agree with you, but TBN is so intricically connected to the job quest, I think it's insane to ask for TBN to be acquired earlier.

Maybe a weaker version of TBN would be cool.

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understandable that you would like TBN to be kept at 70 because you find it cool and its a part of the lore, I just don't think changing it would takeaway from the story anyway and I think gameplay is more important, sorry if my post came across and obnoxious I just wish it was a eariler skill.

My main concern about TBN being early but weaker is the simple fact that it can be seen as a downgrade if it becomes harder to POP due to MP being tied to TBN unlike other short mits that can be changed around. I don't think dark knight players want the risk factor to be took away, Im personally not bothered eitherway but its a very contentious topic.

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Originally Posted by Terhix

Agreed, though I do think it's worth pointing out that Abyssal Drain is also a free bene (especially at lower level with how healing potency scales relative to max HP), just with a 1min cooldown, and DRK gets it at the same level WAR gets RI.



It would have to be a heavily nerfed version of TBN given how weak (non-Holy) Sheltron is compared to TBN.

I do agree SE should have a look at how tanks play at lower levels, but that's a broader problem of just most if not all jobs having really weird progression at low levels. That's really out of the scope of whether DRK is somehow inherently worse than other tanks while leveling - it's not, except for Warrior, but all tanks are just worse than Warrior in dungeons once RI comes online.

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Yeah Tanks and other in jobs REALLY need to be looked at lower levels, Im sick of being synched to 50 and having half a job, a big portion of what I liked about the job is just not there.

I think two things need to happen with tanks Warrior's Sustain mostly in AOE needs to be more toned down, we need to considering switching where important skills such as short CD's go and some key rotational aspects Tanks being more inline with each other not inline with current warrior is objectively what should happen, I don't want Holy circle and Confiteor combo to aoe heal me on PLD that would just make tanking insanely boring on PLD.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

My main concern about TBN being early but weaker is the simple fact that it can be seen as a downgrade if it becomes harder to POP due to MP being tied to TBN unlike other short mits that can be changed around. I don't think dark knight players want the risk factor to be took away, Im personally not bothered eitherway but its a very contentious topic.

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I should have made myself clearer about this point.

I meant a weaker version of TBN pre-lvl70, and true TBN at lvl70 job quest and beyond.

Btw, if you got time, try to New Game+ DRK's job quest. Even if you don't like stories, I'm sure you will have a blast!