Healer aggroing DG trend

there seems to be a trend of healers aggroing in dungeons, luring everything in front of the tank. is this some kind of tbag ?

They're not trying to be malicious, it means you should try picking up the pace and tank more than one pack at a time.. In most dungeons, you can easily pull everything from one gate to another and not have an issue unless you're horribly undergeared.

If your plan was to already do that and the healer is running ahead anyways, then just grab aggro off them when you catch up.

Dungeons are dull, especially after running them for the 50th time so no one really wants to spend more than 15 mins clearing something because they're going 1 pack at a time.

it does feel malicious, im not a 10 year player... why you stealing my gameplay ? mainly if you dont give a chance and start like that

Its healers giving you notice that they can handle more and unless you pull more, they will fall asleep spamming 1 button.
The game actually never tells you that your job is to pull mobs, but only to hold aggro, so technicly all players can pull as long as tank and healer can handle it. And so happens that with basic mitigation from tank, healers can handle a lot.

Sometimes people are also on tight schedule, or in case of expert roulette, have the dungeon memorised and are just doing it for tomes, so they assume everyone is in similar predicament.
While its detrimental to less experienced players, you solve that by talking to your party.


And what would be considered an actual tbag, would be using rescue to pull the tank to the new pack.

I sometimes run bit ahead, when im for example on reaper, so that i can help the tank out with my arm's length and arcane crest.

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Originally Posted by BelphegorLachrymarum

it does feel malicious, im not a 10 year player... why you stealing my gameplay?

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As a tank, your gameplay is to hold aggro. The healers in your post are stealing nothing from you.

They are stealing nothing from you. Catch up with them and do the role you signed up for by hitting your aoe buttons. Not everything is "malicious" let alone "stolen". If you keep that mindset as you play through the game the problem will likely be on you if fights happen as a result of this, seeing as it got a forum post.

Also I have been rescued as a tank before but that's a fringe case (only ever happened once anyway) of an above average danger pull. I simply took it as they're okay with the obnoxious enemy included and pressed on. FFXIV is a game where dungeons are super casual and sometimes even boring content designed for anyone to clear. They are never as dangerous or hard as some F2P games.

If you are the tank and your party is ahead of you, you are doing something wrong

Tanks please sprint. If you are not sprinting then press the sprint button, you should always be in front of the party

I can’t count how often I’m getting tanks that won’t sprint recently then get annoyed when people are ahead of them

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Originally Posted by Arohk

If you are the tank and your party is ahead of you, you are doing something wrong

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Tanks please sprint. If you are not sprinting then press the sprint button, you should always be in front of the party

I can’t count how often I’m getting tanks that won’t sprint recently then get annoyed when people are ahead of them

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Tank dashes can only move you to an enemy within range, while some healers and DPS jobs have untargeted or party-targeted dashes, allowing them to easily outrun the tank even if the tank is sprinting and using their dash whenever possible. That's not a skill issue, that's just how the game works.

...Moreover, the type of player who outruns the tank on purpose is also usually the type of player who stops attacking and runs away from a pack when the last few enemies still have about a fifth of their HP left, allowing that player to get even further ahead of anyone who's still contributing (assuming the last pack of the pull wasn't directly in front of a wall).

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Originally Posted by ConantSivrha

Tank dashes can only move you to an enemy within range, while some healers and DPS jobs have untargeted or party-targeted dashes, allowing them to easily outrun the tank even if the tank is sprinting and using their dash whenever possible. That's not a skill issue, that's just how the game works.

...Moreover, the type of player who outruns the tank on purpose is also usually the type of player who stops attacking and runs away from a pack when the last few enemies still have about a fifth of their HP left, allowing that player to get even further ahead of anyone who's still contributing (assuming the last pack of the pull wasn't directly in front of a wall).

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Tanks also have far more gap closers than most other classes. The only class that has an non targeted dash with more than one charge is DNC

Regardless my point was simply if you are the tank then run. There is no reason to leisurely stroll along while everyone else is running especially if you then proceed to get mad everyone is ahead of you. And if someone pulls ahead then just take it off them, if that overwhelms the healer then the healer can complain, it still doesn’t change your position as the tank

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Originally Posted by Espon

They're not trying to be malicious, it means you should try picking up the pace and tank more than one pack at a time.. In most dungeons, you can easily pull everything from one gate to another and not have an issue unless you're horribly undergeared.

If your plan was to already do that and the healer is running ahead anyways, then just grab aggro off them when you catch up.

Dungeons are dull, especially after running them for the 50th time so no one really wants to spend more than 15 mins clearing something because they're going 1 pack at a time.

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So you are forcing others to adopt to your wishful playstyle instead of communicate.
It is and always will be a double edged sword.

Tank can and shall be able to tank with what he is comfy. 1 Pack? 2 Packs? All Packs? Let him decide.
I would and will never with randoms directly run for all packs.

Most random tanks I played with are btw nice and start with one pack. Simple to see if DPS and Healers are awake. As soon as they see me switching to AoE Rotation they start running to another pack - if a heal also came in - if not. Well then 1 Pack at a time.

And if anyone decides to not communicate, not touch bases to see if we can clear quickly but just runs ahead: Take em. You go DPS/Healer.

Also love the comment "If you are behind the party you are doing something wrong". No. Healer and DPS behind Tank. Not that hard. Cause just you ran the dungeon 50th times does not mean the others did.

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Originally Posted by Sorainthy

And if anyone decides to not communicate, not touch bases to see if we can clear quickly but just runs ahead: Take em. You go DPS/Healer.

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From what i remember "you pull you tank" can actually be a reportable offense if done out of spite.

Also seriously, when you choose to play tank, either cuz you're after the roulette bonus or fast queue - do your job.
1 pack at a time is pace of parties with tank missing.

Ultimately pretty much every dungeon can be cleared without tank. Hence the conclusion that tank's job is to speed up the completion.
Big part of that is grabbing the mobs you can handle as fast as you can - game offers plenty of tools for that: Sprint, gapclosers, ranged attacks, ogcds like flood of darkness, Provoke.

These days the dungeons are pretty standardised, the most recent 'dangerous' wall to wall pull i can remember is in Shadowbringers. Most of other dungeons are following a set pattern: 2 trash packs, wall, 2 trash packs, boss.
The arguement about not doing a dungeon 50 times falls flat as you have been doing pretty much the same dungeon in different flavours for your whole MSQ experience, so it should be almost muscle memory how you handle pulls.

i found it wierd bc all the game its like stantard to the tank to aggro things, and suddenly its whatever... but reading yall posts made me realised the problem is much deeper: healers complaints about their role and bored experienced players.

and none is doing one pack at a time, you guys are wild to assume that

You can act like some jp tank l met. I pulled the extra pack for the tank, kept the tank alive. Apparently the tank didn't like it, Then the tank just left,lol.

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Originally Posted by Sorainthy

So you are forcing others to adopt to your wishful playstyle instead of communicate.
It is and always will be a double edged sword.

Tank can and shall be able to tank with what he is comfy. 1 Pack? 2 Packs? All Packs? Let him decide.
I would and will never with randoms directly run for all packs.

Most random tanks I played with are btw nice and start with one pack. Simple to see if DPS and Healers are awake. As soon as they see me switching to AoE Rotation they start running to another pack - if a heal also came in - if not. Well then 1 Pack at a time.

And if anyone decides to not communicate, not touch bases to see if we can clear quickly but just runs ahead: Take em. You go DPS/Healer.

Also love the comment "If you are behind the party you are doing something wrong". No. Healer and DPS behind Tank. Not that hard. Cause just you ran the dungeon 50th times does not mean the others did.

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So why is pulling more than the tank forcing the tank to adopt to your playstyle but pulling whatever the tank wants isn’t. The tanks job is identical whether there is 1 mob or 100 mobs. If anything the tank wanting to pull less when the healer and DPS want to pull more is selfish on the tanks part because the tank is the least important member of that equation because their role is identical regardless

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Originally Posted by Sorainthy

So you are forcing others to adopt to your wishful playstyle instead of communicate.
It is and always will be a double edged sword.

Tank can and shall be able to tank with what he is comfy. 1 Pack? 2 Packs? All Packs? Let him decide.

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I do give leniency to new players but if you don't grab mobs as the tank and let your party die on purpose you're actively griefing your party. That "is" reportable. It's a team game not a tank ego contest. Try conversing with your party. If the tank is unsure but the healer absolutely gives permission that's another possibility. Back in heavensward when ARR/HW wall pulls were harder my first time tanking a 50 dungeon was haukke manor hard. I pulled the ENTIRE cellar. The party loved it.

So again just speak with your party about it. Everyone is different. So if a tank has a bruised ego, get over it. Everyone is replaceable. You'd be surprised how many dungeons don't need a tank.

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Originally Posted by ConantSivrha

Tank dashes can only move you to an enemy within range, while some healers and DPS jobs have untargeted or party-targeted dashes, allowing them to easily outrun the tank even if the tank is sprinting and using their dash whenever possible. That's not a skill issue, that's just how the game works.

...Moreover, the type of player who outruns the tank on purpose is also usually the type of player who stops attacking and runs away from a pack when the last few enemies still have about a fifth of their HP left, allowing that player to get even further ahead of anyone who's still contributing (assuming the last pack of the pull wasn't directly in front of a wall).

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If the pack is going to die from ranged dps before you reach the wall then the tank should also be running. FWIW when I do this I don't lose damage and I'm still contributing, because I save resources like toxikon/uncoiled fury/katon for the gcd that I'm leaving. Given that these players are trying to speed the dungeon up it's kind of bizarre to assume they stop contributing. That would make it slower.

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Originally Posted by shiftweave

Given that these players are trying to speed the dungeon up it's kind of bizarre to assume they stop contributing. That would make it slower.

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It is bizarre, but I see people do it. I don't mean ranged players repositioning themselves while continuing to attack, but players (including melee DPS) running away from a still-living pack while visibly not attacking.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Tanks also have far more gap closers than most other classes. The only class that has an non targeted dash with more than one charge is DNC

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More charges can sometimes compensate for the inherent advantage of an untargeted dash, but not always.

Unlike enemy-targeted dashes, an untargeted dash can be used as soon as it's ready (allowing the user to start its cooldown immediately), and always makes use of its full range regardless of enemy positioning.

If someone is far enough ahead to pull before you, your gap closer can only move you to the enemies trailing behind them, which allows you to take aggro but not to get in front. If you took a detour for a chest or had any similar delay, someone can get far enough ahead that the enemies they've pulled won't even be in your range until they stop moving.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Regardless my point was simply if you are the tank then run. There is no reason to leisurely stroll along while everyone else is running especially if you then proceed to get mad everyone is ahead of you. And if someone pulls ahead then just take it off them

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Sure, but "press the sprint button, you should always be in front of the party" is a different statement with a different meaning than "use sprint and take aggro off of people who pull ahead". The first implies that people can't pull ahead if the tank is playing properly.

I take issue with this "if someone is ahead of you, you must be making an easily-corrected mistake" cliche because it's misinformation which directly reinforces the behaviors that those who repeat it think they're criticizing. If tanks have no good way of keeping themselves at the front, "tanks who fall behind are bad" and "pulling ahead as a DPS/healer is bad" are functionally the same belief from two different perspectives. If someone has been told they need to be in front to be a good tank, but another player can directly prevent them from being in front, they're going to feel like they're being sabotaged every time another player pulls ahead.

I would argue the real counter to "this DPS/healer is sabotaging me by pulling" is actually "it's not your problem".

You should sprint. You should use your gap closer when possible. If someone else has aggro, you should take aggro as soon as you can. But other players are in control of their characters. They chose to run into that pack, and they chose to drag it away from you instead of towards you. It's not your problem until you get there.

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Originally Posted by ConantSivrha

Sure, but "press the sprint button, you should always be in front of the party" is a different statement with a different meaning than "use sprint and take aggro off of people who pull ahead".

If someone has been told they need to be in front to be a good tank, but another player can directly prevent them from being in front, they're going to feel like they're being sabotaged every time another player pulls ahead.

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Both statements are true in some way,

when i am tanking a dungeon, there is almost never a case where some DPS is running ahead of me.
This works because:

there is an obvious wall that prevents them from running ahaead, i start running when the last enemy is ABOUT to die, not when they are all dead, which gives me a small lead to the other people, i instantly use sprint when i get out of combat (unless its on cooldown).
I only do 1-2 aoes to hit all the enemies and keep running to the next pack.

BUT IF:
there is still somehow a dps infront and pulls, i just do an AOE anyway and get the aggro of themm, so there is really no issue.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

So why is pulling more than the tank forcing the tank to adopt to your playstyle but pulling whatever the tank wants isn’t. The tanks job is identical whether there is 1 mob or 100 mobs. If anything the tank wanting to pull less when the healer and DPS want to pull more is selfish on the tanks part because the tank is the least important member of that equation because their role is identical regardless

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You ignored the most important part of my post but it is ok. It triggered you so let me quote myself:

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Most random tanks I played with are btw nice and start with one pack. Simple to see if DPS and Healers are awake. As soon as they see me switching to AoE Rotation they start running to another pack - if a heal also came in - if not. Well then 1 Pack at a time.

And if anyone decides to not communicate, not touch bases to see if we can clear quickly but just runs ahead: Take em. You go DPS/Healer.

Also love the comment "If you are behind the party you are doing something wrong". No. Healer and DPS behind Tank. Not that hard. Cause just you ran the dungeon 50th times does not mean the others did.

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And now again: Under which circumstances shall anyone beside the one getting hit decide if he is comfy? Is 60sec to talk to each other hard? Mostly in rouletts with randoms?
If I see a sprout on tank/healer/dps I do not simple assume my experience of the game is theirs. Yet I still see in lower tier a lot of "let me run through the whole instance and pull what moves" attempts.
Maybe some of you needs to remembered about the nervous feeling while trying out a new dungeon or a new class/role.


Mesarthim:

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I do give leniency to new players but if you don't grab mobs as the tank and let your party die on purpose you're actively griefing your party. That "is" reportable.

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And pulling more as the tank feels comfy is harrasing him - so?

It is "play together" not play as fast as you like. Most Dungeons do not need tank - agree. If I look into the forum is it also true that healer at a given point are unneeded. Yet a good demand is here in the forum to change that and reduce tank heal, improve playstyle of healer etc. Reading those answers let me wonder when the communtiy got so bitter.

I stand by my choice: You do not communicate with each other: Nothing grands you any allowance to decide the pace of the group. And it does not matter if you are a healer, a tank or a dps. No communication which takes maybe a minute and still try to do what you like? NPC Helper is for that.

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Originally Posted by Sorainthy

And pulling more as the tank feels comfy is harrasing him - so?

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If you are not comfortable with tanking mobs, don't play a tank, you don't need a Tank for 3 mobs

Speaking of communication, when you are the odd one out as a tank, isnt it your business to say "Im new to tanking, please let me play at my pace" when entering the duty?
And similar, when you as experienced tank, you see a new healer - ask if you can pull big or gradually increase pace?

But otherwise, every tank should aim to pull as much as they can handle. However, it can happen that they missjudge their abilities and then instead of getting mad at other players for giving them signs to change, they should take them into consideration. While dps has less of a voice in this, healer's voice is probably on top of the food chain.

Also mr Sorainthy, maybe do reach endgame with tank or healer before judging the community, ok? Many of the forum posts about healer and tank dynamic are very warranted.

Your job is a Tank, not a Pull. If you take aggro and hit your buttons then nobody is "taking your job". I play all roles plenty, if I'm tanking then I'm more than happy for a DPS/Healer that can get ahead of me to pull for me so I can aggro the pack faster and get them grouped, they're extra mitigation for me until I get in range to grab aggro. Bonus points if they pop Arm's Length. I already use Sprint as soon as I can, since it came free with my hotbar. Aside from maybe 3 dungeons a reasonably geared tank in Heavensward and above should be more than easily wall to wall pulling anyway.

It's especially good for a SGE to pull because they can do more damage in packs with Toxicon than they do with their normal AoE so they can pop two shields for 2 Toxicons while running to the packs.

The first time the healer pulls, it's passive aggressive behavior. The correct thing to do instead is for the healer to communicate in chat. If a healer repeatedly pulls more in the same dungeon, then it's malicious.

The discourse around this has gotten wild, in my opinion. Tanks are subjected to a lot of abuse from their fellow players and I see daily "You Pull, You Tank" complaint threads side by side with "Tankxiety" threads where everyone makes these super understanding claims. Then you get in game and see every single roulette on the list having Tank as the adventurer in need. It seems like a huge disconnect.

Most dungeons, at some point or another, literally the entire party is autorunning at a wall waiting for it to open. The entire group pops sprint the second the wall goes down. But some jobs have dashes that don't require a target so they use them to get ahead and then they have ranged attacks on top of that. They are just objectively faster than the fastest tank.

I can virtually guarantee that every tank, at some point in their career, has caught flak because a mob got loose. Someone took a hit and, no matter how small, they thought it was the tank's fault. Maybe they were good and thought to bring the mob back to the tank instead of trying to kite but, most likely, they ran away like a drunk toddler resisting bedtime. Then not only do they take the extra hits, the mob takes extra time to die because it was separated from the pack. A conscientious person, as people who play support roles tend to be, will remember this. They may even take it personally. If you make it hard for them, that is where Tankxiety comes from and that is how the YPYT attitude is born.

The problem is the tank and the puller are not the only people in the dungeon. The "YPYT" attitude from the tank is griefing because it harms more than just the player who pulls, it harms everyone by wasting their time. The person pulling for the tank is still being rude.

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Originally Posted by Sorainthy

And pulling more as the tank feels comfy is harrasing him - so?

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Is this a serious comment? Oh boy...

I think you need to rediscover what the meaning of harassment is.

This is a MMO, why dont people just communicate,

Tank should say at the start at the dungeon if they dont want W2W and healer should just ask the tank to pull more. If both parties dont come to an agreement, then needs to leave or kicked.

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Originally Posted by Laerune

This is a MMO, why dont people just communicate,

Tank should say at the start at the dungeon if they dont want W2W and healer should just ask the tank to pull more. If both parties dont come to an agreement, then needs to leave or kicked.

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This is probably the most straight to the point post I could think of myself. Nothing more nothing less.

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Originally Posted by Laerune

This is a MMO, why dont people just communicate

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Could be a console player for all we know and it's a hassle to type at that moment and time. I've had many instances like that when I was leveling my DRK.

Some tanks can pick up what the healers are putting down. Healer running ahead usually is (over)confidence, and they usually have your back unless something goes wrong, which is rare.

Regardless OP or any new tank, don't let this bother you further. As other people mentioned, you have buttons to take back aggro and keep it. Anybody who is ahead of you are extra mitigation/HP. That doesn't mean YPYT, but it does give you the chance to get there and do your job.

The only HP that matters is the last 1.

Same could be said for tanks not pulling. Can also assume it's 'malicious'. Healers are as free as you to play however they want.

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Originally Posted by ConantSivrha

Tank dashes can only move you to an enemy within range, while some healers and DPS jobs have untargeted or party-targeted dashes, allowing them to easily outrun the tank even if the tank is sprinting and using their dash whenever possible. That's not a skill issue, that's just how the game works.

...Moreover, the type of player who outruns the tank on purpose is also usually the type of player who stops attacking and runs away from a pack when the last few enemies still have about a fifth of their HP left, allowing that player to get even further ahead of anyone who's still contributing (assuming the last pack of the pull wasn't directly in front of a wall).

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You must be an absolute snail if a sch can outrun you when they have no such tool.

You have much more tools as a tank to stay ahead of the group.

Just literally keep going and take the mob if someone supposedly is pulling for you.

Don't do a YPYT. People have already said their piece on this.

To me there really is 5 different cases here

- Those that kinda do that accidentally here and then, because they happened to be before you, then bring the mobs into the pack. Those are fine
- Those trying to tell you that can do bigger packs. (It's also very annoying for dps to do small packs too, because it kinda throw the general knowledge of the dungeon, and make it difficult to time your skills well to get your burst/opener to begin a fight). Those are fine too. Even if they should voice that instead.
- Those who run 2 meters ahead of you despite you doing big packs. Those are kinda annoying, but it's not really a big problem.
- Those who voluntary stop dps the previous pack of mob so they can be right next to the wall when it opens and be ahead of you just to take the aggro on things to "gain time". Yet the other being the time it takes for other players to get to the pack kinda makes those 2 seconds of gain useless. Those can go eat bricks.
- The one taking the aggro and then not going toward the packs and running around like a headless chicken, making you work more than what would have been needed if they just could wait 2 seconds. This is often a hint of the lack of experience of the player. Those are especially annoying. This typically the guy that believes he knows but actually doesn't.

In the end it depends of the global behaviour of people when they do that.

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Originally Posted by CNitsah

To me there really is 5 different cases here

- Those that kinda do that accidentally here and then, because they happened to be before you, then bring the mobs into the pack. Those are fine
- Those trying to tell you that can do bigger packs. (It's also very annoying for dps to do small packs too, because it kinda throw the general knowledge of the dungeon, and make it difficult to time your skills well to get your burst/opener to begin a fight). Those are fine too. Even if they should voice that instead.
- Those who run 2 meters ahead of you despite you doing big packs. Those are kinda annoying, but it's not really a big problem.
- Those who voluntary stop dps the previous pack of mob so they can be right next to the wall when it opens and be ahead of you just to take the aggro on things to "gain time". Yet the other being the time it takes for other players to get to the pack kinda makes those 2 seconds of gain useless. Those can go eat bricks.
- The one taking the aggro and then not going toward the packs and running around like a headless chicken, making you work more than what would have been needed if they just could wait 2 seconds. This is often a hint of the lack of experience of the player. Those are especially annoying. This typically the guy that believes he knows but actually doesn't.

In the end it depends of the global behaviour of people when they do that.

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I will only speak to 1 and 2 on your list.

I sometimes end up being the person who gets add aggro in 1. If a tank is not doing enough AoEs, not much I can do about it. I just sit near the tank for them to pull them off me. Sometimes it takes some time and is a general pain for the healer.

In two, I will only suggest for the tank to pull more if they feel comfortable. There are a few duties that are exceptions. Nervousness and tank anxiety can play a part. Maybe the tank was burned previously in another group and nervous to pull more than one pack. Also, some tank jobs do not have the same sort of healing during pulls. Gunbreaker does not have any dps skill that heal during AoEs for example. If there are others tanks that fall in to either side of the heals, please advise as I main a Gunbreaker. Having to manage self heal, mitigation and dodging all at once may prove challenging to some. Encouragement is a better course of action. A tank may not be the first type of job someone picks up. This is my case in point so I can understand it completely.

I (healer) got votekicked because a tank and their friend didn't like that somebody else pulled mobs before they did (it was the other dps...)
I tried my best to ask if they were still able to continue or if they had an emergency, and they just didn't reply and stood still, occasionally targetting me or the other player...

Then they just went afk and refused to do anything for the next pull along with their friend, so there I am doing a trash pull with just me as a healer and a dps...
It worked but I don't really enjoy people AFKing if they queue up for content, just to votekick the people actually playing the game for them...

I've healed dungeons without tanks with friends for fun, it's a good exercise so it wasn't anything I lacked confidence in and I was OK continuing for a few pulls or even the entire dungeon if it was a real emergency for the other players, but man...
AFK griefing and then votekicking the people carrying you while trying to accommodate you...

I'mma be real if the healer and the dps can handle it and are faster than you, why not? If you don't wipe, what's the issue?

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Originally Posted by Exmo

The first time the healer pulls, it's passive aggressive behavior. The correct thing to do instead is for the healer to communicate in chat. If a healer repeatedly pulls more in the same dungeon, then it's malicious.

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I'm inclined to disagree, if the healer pulls more in the same dungeon without any issues, how is it malicious?
They'd be making the dungeon go faster, not slower, if they are really the ones pulling... (Assuming they're grouping the mobs, which I imagine they would be doing)

Wouldn't the players actively choosing to not play the game be the malicious ones in this case?