The Problem with Yoshi-P | An Honest Critique by Ember's Arcade

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSNaMfdmFCc


This is exactly the problem I have with the game, but I could not find the words to put together to describe it.

The main main MAIN problem that hurt FFXIV overall -

Lack of player agency


Final Fantasy XVI also suffered this by the same studio.


I don't have much else to say at this point as its been beaten to death, but this is the conclusion and now the question is anyone at CBU3 even aware or just don't care? Are we even playing the same game?

6 Minutes in and I already want to give that youtuber a medal.

"these accessories" (that make FFXVI easier) "are optional, of course but they are emblematic of Creative Studio 3's fear, that a player may be unable to overcome a gameplay challenge and as a result to experience the next cutscene. Thus they build their games to be nearly impossible to fail, smoothing out the rough textures that make playing video games interesting, and then they hide and semblance of challenge as far out of view as possible, out of fear that you might be scared of. All in service of storytelling."

FFXIV MSQ in a nutshell, yep. Doesn't help of course that whenever CS3 does ask the player for something, some players are up in arms against it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ovIm

6 Minutes in and I already want to give that youtuber a medal.

"these accessories" (that make FFXVI easier) "are optional, of course but they are emblematic of Creative Studio 3's fear, that a player may be unable to overcome a gameplay challenge and as a result to experience the next cutscene. Thus they build their games to be nearly impossible to fail, smoothing out the rough textures that make playing video games interesting, and then they hide and semblance of challenge as far out of view as possible, out of fear that you might be scared of. All in service of storytelling."

FFXIV MSQ in a nutshell, yep. Doesn't help of course that whenever CS3 does ask the player for something, some players are up in arms against it.

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This, but also FF16 felt very... MMO time waste-y.
Why were the multiple instances of locked gates that I needed to run around talking to random townspeople to get past? Why are you wasting my time with this in a single player game in lieu of something more exciting?

I have to agree with the points said in this video.

Just discovered this video and came to see if anyone was talking about it here, as it reminded me a lot of the problems I've been seeing people talk about here on the forums. This style of frictionless MSQ gameplay with all of the harder elements locked away to only the "hardcore" players also really exacerbates the problem we've been seeing with the rift between the so-called "casual" and "hardcore" crowd. And as someone who got into this game because of the story but stuck around because I discovered I really like the harder battles and raids too, I feel almost...extra alienated? Job design keeps getting sanded down and homogenized. Dungeons and MSQ quests ask absolutely nothing of me beyond the barest minimum and so they don't feel fun or rewarding.

I think I've been under FFXIV's spell for a long time, and it's both jarring and sad to have the illusion broken. I'd known that FFXIV's map design and quest system had flaws from when I began playing, but like the video said, I mostly excused it as an older game and went in expecting a little clunkiness, so it didn't bother me all that much...for a time. Truth is, I really was sucked in by just how much I loved the world and story. People give ARR crap, and there were some bad moments, but honestly? By level 30 and the attack on the Waking Sands, I was pretty intrigued and willing to subscribe to see more, and I only got more invested and more connected to the world from there. I could forgive some boring quest designs and bland combat for a long time, because the story was honestly compelling enough that getting more quest dialogue and more cutscenes was a reward for me. I ate up every single lore crumb! I loved learning every little detail I could! The characters and their stories and world mattered to me and it was such a joy every moment I got to learn more about it! Even as boring as I found the Endwalker patch stories, I thought "well, it's kind of a filler episode, right? We'll get back on track soon, they haven't really disappointed me yet."

And then Dawntrail came out.

Suddenly, the MSQ and the lore wasn't a "reward" for me anymore. If anything, it felt like the characters, world, and dialogue were actively wasting my time, or even worse, talking down to me and disrespecting the lore that came before. Hell, by the time I got to the last two zones, advancing the story started to feel more like a punishment, and I got myself to push through and finish it by telling myself I needed to do it to unlock the raids. I had stop and talk myself into doing it, like trying to start cleaning a load of dirty dishes, because the task was so unpleasant! Once the beautiful world and story were gone, the underlying flaws with the game became glaringly obvious to me in a way they never had to me previously or I had excused before. And while I'm still subbed for the friendship and community I've made in the game that I can't find anywhere else, yeah, I think I and all of us do deserve better for what we pay every month. I've been playing some other games in the meantime now, and I keep being struck by how much actual gameplay there is. It's almost embarrassing to admit, but I really had become accustomed to playing almost entirely FFXIV as my main video game and forgot what other games felt like to play. And now that I've branched out again...yikes, this game's problems become all the more highlighted when I log back in.

I don't disagree that this is an issue.

But I also think it's important to consider those players who may genuinely struggle to make it to the next quest and are in fact just playing to experience the story or pass the time, rather than for the challenge.

I believe all games should have an Easy mode and a Hard mode to solve this. Then you just choose which depending on the type of person you are.

The problem with FF14 for example is that the only difficulty for dungeons is the easy mode. The only difficulties for solo battles are "Normal" and "Very Easy". You aren't given a choice between an easy rotation and a challenging rotation.

This video was well done and articulates a lot of the complaints people have have had for a very long time. I remember feeling this way with certain things all the way back when 2.0 launched and saw all the changes that were made to the game.

Now here we are in DT and the formula they used to re-launch the game is still identical today. It took a longtime, but people have awakened. The facade has been exposed for all to see.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

I don't disagree that this is an issue.

But I also think it's important to consider those players who may genuinely struggle to make it to the next quest and are in fact just playing to experience the story or pass the time, rather than for the challenge.

I believe all games should have an Easy mode and a Hard mode to solve this. Then you just choose which depending on the type of person you are.

The problem with FF14 for example is that the only difficulty for dungeons is the easy mode. The only difficulties for solo battles are "Normal" and "Very Easy". You aren't given a choice between an easy rotation and a challenging rotation.

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And even then a lot of the 'solo' battles are tuned so low on Normal if there are NPCs helping you can win without doing anything.

Think Endwalker was the first time the Yoshi-P "spell" was broken for me.

Making a game too hardcore (The lament of Wildstar that lost its playerbase because endgame was hilariously hard / hard to get into. Because it wanted to be more hardcore than WoW)

Or making a game too easy is not the right way to go.

Honestly, nothing will ever beat Vanilla WoW, it was hard enough, had satisfying gearing and build options, random rng drops, chasing gear, easy enough to get into with raiding, each class was unique, each class had their own quests. It all went to poop with The Burning Crusade. I sometimes dip into a private server to enjoy leveling a random toon, still rocks, I wish everyone could try it.

Theres no magic bullet for this, but we can only wait and see if they even TRY to solve this in 8.0.

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Originally Posted by Kaliesto

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSNaMfdmFCc


This is exactly the problem I have with the game, but I could not find the words to put together to describe it.

The main main MAIN problem that hurt FFXIV overall -

Lack of player agency


Final Fantasy XVI also suffered this by the same studio.


I don't have much else to say at this point as its been beaten to death, but this is the conclusion and now the question is anyone at CBU3 even aware or just don't care? Are we even playing the same game?

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One thing that the Youtuber didn't discuss was the following:

I believe Yoshi P's design philosophy can be traced back to when he first took over FFXIV after its initial failure in 1.0. At that time, 1.0 had a convoluted, unintuitive and outdated design.

To address this, reportedly Yoshi P encouraged his devs to play WoW to understand its accessibility, its success, and how seamlessly casual players could join and enjoy the experience. This focus on accessibility and intuitiveness became central to his design philosophy, and became central to the success of A Realm Reborn's launch.

Since then, I think Yoshi P maintained this mindset, prioritizing ease of access and casual-friendly gameplay as his design philosophy, and that 1.0 trauma still hasn't allowed him to move on.

Now, it just feels like this approach has been taken too far, and permeates not only FFXIV but also influencing the design of other games like FFXVI. So what was once a balanced and thoughtful philosophy now becomes overdone and just diminishes the depth and challenge that players nowadays expect.

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Originally Posted by Hallarem

Think Endwalker was the first time the Yoshi-P "spell" was broken for me.

Making a game too hardcore (The lament of Wildstar that lost its playerbase because endgame was hilariously hard / hard to get into. Because it wanted to be more hardcore than WoW)

Or making a game too easy is not the right way to go.

Honestly, nothing will ever beat Vanilla WoW, it was hard enough, had satisfying gearing and build options, random rng drops, chasing gear, easy enough to get into with raiding, each class was unique, each class had their own quests. It all went to poop with The Burning Crusade. I sometimes dip into a private server to enjoy leveling a random toon, still rocks, I wish everyone could try it.

Theres no magic bullet for this, but we can only wait and see if they even TRY to solve this in 8.0.

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Vanilla WoW was good, indeed.
I do miss the "danger" when running around the game world.
It wasn't uncommon, in fact it was very normal that people died at least once or twice during the first 5 levels in the "tutorial zone".
Not that the enemies were that difficult.
But if they outnumbered you they could easily kill you.
The game was hard in a fair way imo.
Over extend and chances are high that you (and your group) will pay for it.

A system like this gave people options to tackle encounters.
If you wanted to you could take it nice and slow, pull a mob at a time.
Or you could go ham and pull multiple.
Ofc multi pulls got easier the higher level/better gear you had.
But this also gave players time to get comfortable with their class.
Learn the strengths and weaknesses they had at their own pace.

I was a bit thrilled back pre Heavensward when they talked about how they had increased the difficulty of the overworld mobs for HW.
But I honestly couldn't tell the difference which led to being a tad disappointed.

I literally dont care about MSQ duties difficulty. I dont really get why anyone would, if I wanted challenge I would go prog an ultimate or criterion savage. The compartmentalization of content is a good design, as a midcore savage raider.

In fact I absolutely love that I can take my time looking at dungeons' details instead of having to be too busy sweating through a MSQ dungeon. One of my favorite dungeons in XIV is The Aitiascope despite being rather easy. Which allows me to notice story and dialogue details that otherwise I never would have.

This weird nonsense about ''Yoshi-p hiding away difficulty'' seems to me to be some weird at attempt at finding something to complain for FFXIV not being something it never has been, more than anything.

Not everyone wants to play Elden Ring to ''earn'' a game's story, as someone that loves Elden Ring. I am not that person, but that doesnt mean I cant coexist with those people.

EDIT: also, as someone that played WoW for 12 years... the truth is that FFXIV was never going to be Vanilla WoW either. That kind of game cant exist without being massively frustrating in today's gaming scene. People would meta away the ''discovery/danger/etc'' within a week. There would be a speedrun to max level within 2 weeks. Not to mention that its rather silly to be fearing random dogs in the wilds after killing Gods for the 4th time a week.

But also FFXIV not being like Vanilla WoW is the entire point. FFXIV is not ''another WoW''. I thought we already went through this years ago when the late ShB WoW happened.

On the other hand the complete lack of ability to put difficulty in anything also artificially constrains design

Remember how people lost their shit at in from the cold because it actually required you to do something? Even though it was literally by a country mile the best designed solo duty from a storytelling perspective

If the entire MSQ has to be like the mitten from SpongeBob then you are artificially restricting how gameplay and storytelling can interact like they do with something like in from the cold; which we can see where there is nothing of similar quality in DT’s very limited solo duties

I just hope that after Dawntrail and XVI people stop worshiping the ground Yoshida walks on. He's just a businessman.
I do not believe he is passionate about game development, nor do I think he has a very solid vision for it.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

On the other hand the complete lack of ability to put difficulty in anything also artificially constrains design

Remember how people lost their shit at in from the cold because it actually required you to do something? Even though it was literally by a country mile the best designed solo duty from a storytelling perspective

If the entire MSQ has to be like the mitten from SpongeBob then you are artificially restricting how gameplay and storytelling can interact like they do with something like in from the cold; which we can see where there is nothing of similar quality in DT’s very limited solo duties

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I will agree that outright nerfing IFTC was a mistake instead of making it more obvious by having an actual minimap for the solo duty. But on the other hand they arent going to put anything again like that in DT when DT is supposed to be far less emotionally heavy than EW or even ShB. EW as a whole was supposed to be a emotional rollercoaster and a deconstruction and reconstruction of our entire journey.

I also think that difficulty isnt the only way that you can make gameplay and story/narrative integration like IFTC. The difficulty was a big part of that quest because it was part of the entire ''bodyswap into a rando garlean'' change of point of view narrative. But its not something that is necessary for every single solo duty, in fact I quite liked the Wuk Lamat vs Bakool Ja Ja solo duty where its implied that she learned to use dynamis as its the first time she uses a limit break.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

I just hope that after Dawntrail and XVI people stop worshiping the ground Yoshida walks on. He's just a businessman.
I do not believe he is passionate about game development, nor do I think he has a very solid vision for it.

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You dont know what you are talking about. There are things to criticize about him but basically nothing about what you said is true.

The entire reason he was able to fix FFXIV is that he was, in fact, passionate about MMORPGs for years. The entire reason why he was able to fix FFXIV is that he has an understanding of MMOs while the 1.0 team didnt - they understood single player RPGs. Yoshi-P was out there on Tokyo trying to find Ultima Online install CDs years before a lot of the FFXIV playerbase played their first videogame.

That his ideas and direction disagree with some people's ideas doesnt mean he ''is just a businessman'' or that he isnt passionate about game development. The man has to be kept down and made to rest because he overworks himself constantly.

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Originally Posted by ovIm

6 Minutes in and I already want to give that youtuber a medal.

"these accessories" (that make FFXVI easier) "are optional, of course but they are emblematic of Creative Studio 3's fear, that a player may be unable to overcome a gameplay challenge and as a result to experience the next cutscene. Thus they build their games to be nearly impossible to fail, smoothing out the rough textures that make playing video games interesting, and then they hide and semblance of challenge as far out of view as possible, out of fear that you might be scared of. All in service of storytelling."

FFXIV MSQ in a nutshell, yep. Doesn't help of course that whenever CS3 does ask the player for something, some players are up in arms against it.

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Haven't watched the video yet so I'm not responding to that, but specifically the accessories comment here. Though I may tangentially be responding to the video.

I don't think its the impossible to fail fear that is the focus, it's the too smooth. WoW is pretty easy *outside of the /specifically/ hard content* and is far less smooth.

I really think it's NOT the difficulty slider as the key issue (though it can play part). It's everything is too damn smooth.

Can be easy and not smooth. Pick almost, almost, any legendary game and they're not that hard.. they just tend to be crunchy (and or get you into a zen state). I almost never die in games and I have loads of fun.


Sometimes I don't even pick the hard options lol, like death stranding in easy and I had fun.... And it's a walking simulator hehe. Unless we are taking about souls games. Then I did die all the time....(And had fun).

I don't think it's the specifically the difficulty or amount of deaths that are the problem. It's with or without deaths it is all smooth. People think if they die more it is less so, but I think that is really superficial texture and won't get to the actual issue. Still smooth, just challenging smooth lol.

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Originally Posted by ovIm

6 Minutes in and I already want to give that youtuber a medal.

"these accessories" (that make FFXVI easier) "are optional, of course but they are emblematic of Creative Studio 3's fear, that a player may be unable to overcome a gameplay challenge and as a result to experience the next cutscene. Thus they build their games to be nearly impossible to fail, smoothing out the rough textures that make playing video games interesting, and then they hide and semblance of challenge as far out of view as possible, out of fear that you might be scared of. All in service of storytelling."

FFXIV MSQ in a nutshell, yep. Doesn't help of course that whenever CS3 does ask the player for something, some players are up in arms against it.

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I don't have issues with developers adding accessibility features, which is what those accessories are. It's a weird thing to take issue with, since, if you don't need or want them, you can simply ignore them, and it has no bearing whatsoever on your game experience. I think it's cool that they did it via gear and not by just flipping a switch in a menu somewhere.

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Originally Posted by Torashiki

I literally dont care about MSQ duties difficulty. I dont really get why anyone would, if I wanted challenge I would go prog an ultimate or criterion savage. The compartmentalization of content is a good design, as a midcore savage raider.

In fact I absolutely love that I can take my time looking at dungeons' details instead of having to be too busy sweating through a MSQ dungeon. One of my favorite dungeons in XIV is The Aitiascope despite being rather easy. Which allows me to notice story and dialogue details that otherwise I never would have.

This weird nonsense about ''Yoshi-p hiding away difficulty'' seems to me to be some weird at attempt at finding something to complain for FFXIV not being something it never has been, more than anything.

Not everyone wants to play Elden Ring to ''earn'' a game's story, as someone that loves Elden Ring. I am not that person, but that doesnt mean I cant coexist with those people.

EDIT: also, as someone that played WoW for 12 years... the truth is that FFXIV was never going to be Vanilla WoW either. That kind of game cant exist without being massively frustrating in today's gaming scene. People would meta away the ''discovery/danger/etc'' within a week. There would be a speedrun to max level within 2 weeks. Not to mention that its rather silly to be fearing random dogs in the wilds after killing Gods for the 4th time a week.

But also FFXIV not being like Vanilla WoW is the entire point. FFXIV is not ''another WoW''. I thought we already went through this years ago when the late ShB WoW happened.

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Not everyone follows meta, some people play for discovery. Naturally some players flow to the easiest path and look up guides, but that doesn't mean you need to make every game easy just because "some people might just look up a guide". And what if they do speedrun? Its their choice, just like its anyones choice to discover the best path forward. I just feel like an "MMO" without a dangerous or at least somewhat challenging interactable open world is not an MMO at all. What is the point of the mobs in the open world aside from being windowdressing like the scenery and empty villages, not to mention the gazillion houses that should be OPEN and interactable like in any self-respecting RPG, let alone an MMO. Like I don't know... in any other Final fantasy game? The best excuse I heard was "Well, you wouldnt barge into a strangers house, would you?" "Uhm ,yes I would! Thats what you do in rpgs! Thats what makes the world feel alive and lived in. Its an MMO / RPG not a crime PSA"

The WoL gets morbol breath, deaf, blind, mute, gets eaten, dies. The monsters in the world are still dangerous, by that logic no random mobs in any MMO's should be a challenge because we killed raid bosses. Fighting is still needed, the WoL isn't superman/woman.

And I reaaaally hope Dynamis isnt mentioned ever again, its such a writers crutch for out of nowhere power ups for characters that haven't earned it.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

On the other hand the complete lack of ability to put difficulty in anything also artificially constrains design

Remember how people lost their shit at in from the cold because it actually required you to do something? Even though it was literally by a country mile the best designed solo duty from a storytelling perspective

If the entire MSQ has to be like the mitten from SpongeBob then you are artificially restricting how gameplay and storytelling can interact like they do with something like in from the cold; which we can see where there is nothing of similar quality in DT’s very limited solo duties

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That's interesting. From a plot point of view I didn't think it made any sense at all, and seemed very much grafted in to the MSQ as an afterthought.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

That's interesting. From a plot point of view I didn't think it made any sense at all, and seemed very much grafted in to the MSQ as an afterthought.

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Zenos in Endwalker makes no sense at all in general. His whole arc is that of a tantrum throwing toddler who pushes toy trucks and castles made of sand (In this case Garlemald offscreen oooof) to the ground, because the WoL won't play with him accompanied by his sidekick, the mental clown who pretends to the end that he's "deep". I still to this day believe that he was just a tack on, because they wanted to keep him alive for whatever reason and they just ran out of runway for him to actually do anything meaningful than being our cool dragon taxi and have a cool fight with a cool backround. He was there for the cool, very anime SE, very anime.

It was a COOL quest though! Gameplay-wise.

I never said the actual storytelling was actually good it’s just that’s about the only solo duty that attempts to actually do something interesting on terms of fusing the story with the gameplay

Even if the story is something straight out of harvester (1996) the fusion is still done far better in IFTC than any other solo duty

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I never said the actual storytelling was actually good it’s just that’s about the only solo duty that attempts to actually do something interesting on terms of fusing the story with the gameplay

Even if the story is something straight out of harvester (1996) the fusion is still done far better in IFTC than any other solo duty

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Should not a major plot device have subsequent consequences? Like I agree the whole concept was really bold, since it centered on the most brutal bodily violation imaginable. But the aftermath is basically a couple of the Scions asking "you feeling better now, honey?" then we all go off to fix another problem and it's never mentioned again.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Should not a major plot device have subsequent consequences? Like I agree the whole concept was really bold, since it centered on the most brutal bodily violation imaginable. But the aftermath is basically a couple of the Scions asking "you feeling better now, honey?" then we all go off to fix another problem and it's never mentioned again.

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That's the unfortunate outcome of the MSQ having no consequences in general.

Ultima Thule later shows that problem once again.
The Scions all sacrifice themselve to allow you to reach the top. It's supposed to tug at your heartstrings (in a very cheap way imo) but fails to do so because they are immediately revived afterwards, in the exact same state they were before, once again no consequences and the entire section falls flat because it might as well not have happened.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

That's the unfortunate outcome of the MSQ having no consequences in general.

Ultima Thule later shows that problem once again.
The Scions all sacrifice themselve to allow you to reach the top. It's supposed to tug at your heartstrings (in a very cheap way imo) but fails to do so because they are immediately revived afterwards, in the exact same state they were before, once again no consequences and the entire section falls flat because it might as well not have happened.

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Personally I think it would've been much better if at least half of the Scions perished then.
That the crystal didn't have enough power to bring all of them back.
It was the Endwalker expansion after all, the end of a story that's been going on for many many years.

It would've also made the next expansion feel more like a new adventure if not all the previous characters were still tagging along.
That the players ventures forth while remembering those that were lost.
Would've made it much more impactful imo.

"Everyone likes a happy ending" as they say.
But bittersweet endings are the ones that people remember.

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Originally Posted by Torashiki

I literally dont care about MSQ duties difficulty. I dont really get why anyone would, if I wanted challenge I would go prog an ultimate or criterion savage. The compartmentalization of content is a good design, as a midcore savage raider.

...

This weird nonsense about ''Yoshi-p hiding away difficulty'' seems to me to be some weird at attempt at finding something to complain for FFXIV not being something it never has been, more than anything.

Not everyone wants to play Elden Ring to ''earn'' a game's story, as someone that loves Elden Ring. I am not that person, but that doesnt mean I cant coexist with those people.

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This is not about difficulty though, nor is it advocating for Elden Ring style difficulty during MSQ. There are nuances in gameplay requirements, and right now, that requirement for FFXIV MSQ is pretty close to "none".
Why, pray tell, could we, the player, not play as Wuk Lamat capturing an Alpaca? Why weren't we allowed to control the float of the Hanu festival and make sure it goes the right way? Why could we not craft the xibruq pibil? Why was the train scene a cutscene and not a fight on the train, or a goldsaucer-esque shooting minigame, or maybe even both of those things? Why is our own input in the fight for Solution 9 so inconsequential that you can press no buttons at all, sit in a corner during the Otis fight, and win?

The answer to that is still twofold. One, CS3 are deadly afraid of people quitting their beloved game because they were confronted with a gameplay requirement (requirement! not difficulty) of any kind (i keep repeating those examples but - Steps of Faith, or In from the Cold, anyone?). And two, the outcriers that yap about not being able to instantly progress the story because of something in the game asking them to actually play the game. And for those that still struggle, solo instances do advertise their easy mode should the player fail, so its not like they would be completely barred from progressing if they were to struggle with something.

Without a shred of difficulty you can’t have any engagement

If you never want to interact with the game as a game you can’t also be annoyed the game is basically a visual novel

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Originally Posted by ovIm

This is not about difficulty though, nor is it advocating for Elden Ring style difficulty during MSQ.

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Difficulty can be a storytelling tool they refuse to use, and the dark souls comparison always seem to be there when they add any possible friction to the content, remember people angrily comparing the DT dungeons to Elden Ring because they wiped a couple of times on new content they've never seen before?

I definitely agree that lack of player agency and emergent gameplay are serious issues for the game right now. I rolled an alt on a random server and ended up on one that seemed fairly normie-RP heavy, and the lengths people go to to make their own fun, working with almost nothing, is pretty impressive.

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Originally Posted by Volgia

Difficulty can be a storytelling tool they refuse to use, and the dark souls comparison always seem to be there when they add any possible friction to the content, remember people angrily comparing the DT dungeons to Elden Ring because they wiped a couple of times on new content they've never seen before?

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I'd suggest the only way to make required content appeal to the wide demographic SE wants is to dual-track the difficulty. Otherwise we're left with this pantomime where the left side of the audience shouts "It's too hard," and the right replies "It's too easy." And both sides are pissed off.

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Originally Posted by Volgia

Difficulty can be a storytelling tool they refuse to use, and the dark souls comparison always seem to be there when they add any possible friction to the content, remember people angrily comparing the DT dungeons to Elden Ring because they wiped a couple of times on new content they've never seen before?

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Oh absolutely agree there. Its twice as funny considering that some those people most likely never played a soulsborne title in earnest.

The way I like to see it is to compare FF14 MSQ to the structure to a Mario game.
In Mario, you are expected to run through and jump over things for a couple of levels, then fight bowser, and when you are hungry for more, you can tackle the optional extra challenges, after which you get an additional reward.
If the FFXIV MSQ were a Mario Game, almost every level up to the final boss would be solid ground with no pitfalls or enviromental hazards, and no enemies besides an occasional goomba every couple of levels. There is an occasional mini-bowser in between. And then, once you have cleared the final Bowser, suddenly the game opens up the aforementioned optional levels with pitfals and spikes and traps and enemies where danger is very much real (ie, Extreme and Savage instances).
That is, imho, weird for a video game.

I agree, excessive focus on not wanting to leave anyone behind in getting to the next part of the story, has the 'necessary side effect' of stripping anything that would be an obstacle from that path. But that defeats the purpose of the writing instrument of the Hero's Journey -- it is supposed to be the journey of a character going through trials and tribulations in the overcoming of obstacles. Take out those parts and you have something whose story beats are not connected by challenges, but by chores. An easy mode that lets anyone experience the story, including those with e.g. disabilities that would prevent them from performing the gameplay, should be a fallback, not the default and only setting.

I wouldn't mind if they even added a 'skip' option to msq dungeons and trials that just gives you the cutscenes and a written summary of any story beats not covered by cutscenes that happened in there. The only thing they'd need to be mindful of then would be that there shouldn't be any advantage to finishing the msq ahead of the majority, to prevent skipping content becoming a meta.


EDIT: And then make the default gameplay something that would actually be interesting to play through and exciting to clear - not this odd halfway point between skipping and gameplay where you're kind of skipping out of needing to do much, but still having to sit the time and go through the motions.

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Originally Posted by Eyrilona

I agree, excessive focus on not wanting to leave anyone behind in getting to the next part of the story, has the 'necessary side effect' of stripping anything that would be an obstacle from that path. But that defeats the purpose of the writing instrument of the Hero's Journey -- it is supposed to be the journey of a character going through trials and tribulations in the overcoming of obstacles. Take out those parts and you have something whose story beats are not connected by challenges, but by chores. An easy mode that lets anyone experience the story, including those with e.g. disabilities that would prevent them from performing the gameplay, should be a fallback, not the default and only setting.

I wouldn't mind if they even added a 'skip' option to msq dungeons and trials that just gives you the cutscenes and a written summary of any story beats not covered by cutscenes that happened in there. The only thing they'd need to be mindful of then would be that there shouldn't be any advantage to finishing the msq ahead of the majority, to prevent skipping content becoming a meta.

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This idea potentially solves a lot of problems. Possibly even more useful in solo duties, since it would open up design space for those who want more of a challenge.

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Originally Posted by Evergrey

Personally I think it would've been much better if at least half of the Scions perished then.
That the crystal didn't have enough power to bring all of them back.
It was the Endwalker expansion after all, the end of a story that's been going on for many many years.

It would've also made the next expansion feel more like a new adventure if not all the previous characters were still tagging along.
That the players ventures forth while remembering those that were lost.
Would've made it much more impactful imo.

"Everyone likes a happy ending" as they say.
But bittersweet endings are the ones that people remember.

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I don't even mean that they necessarily needed to kill any of them off, but there needed to be SOME consequence.
Just like there were originally consequences to Y'shtola casting a spell that pulled both her and Thancred into the lifestream...let's forget for a second that they completely forgot that part in later expansions.

Happy endings are nice and all but I completely agree that they do not have the same emotional impact, especially when you try to portrait some kind of heroic sacrifice but everything is hunky dory 30 minutes later.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

That's interesting. From a plot point of view I didn't think it made any sense at all, and seemed very much grafted in to the MSQ as an afterthought.

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Same, I disliked IFTC not cause of difficulty (I didn’t find any, played on release), but because it didn’t make sense. It disregarded previous lore for purely shock value and didn’t know what to do with itself properly (it is a traumatic event, anyone?) so was thrown away right after by everyone around you. Pretty underwhelming.

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Originally Posted by Torashiki

You dont know what you are talking about. There are things to criticize about him but basically nothing about what you said is true.

The entire reason he was able to fix FFXIV is that he was, in fact, passionate about MMORPGs for years. The entire reason why he was able to fix FFXIV is that he has an understanding of MMOs while the 1.0 team didnt - they understood single player RPGs. Yoshi-P was out there on Tokyo trying to find Ultima Online install CDs years before a lot of the FFXIV playerbase played their first videogame.

That his ideas and direction disagree with some people's ideas doesnt mean he ''is just a businessman'' or that he isnt passionate about game development. The man has to be kept down and made to rest because he overworks himself constantly.

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I'm willing to be wrong here, but to be frank I'm not feeling it. I invite him to make me eat my words, I'd be overjoyed even. But so far all I see is a company that feels disconnected from its audience and utterly indifferent to anything they say.
Yeah I get it the stuff about 1.0 and ARR. I get those things are impressive to you, and they are. But you need to understand, the triumphant rise of A realm reborn saving 1.0 happened over a decade ago.

Dawntrail is now. I'm asking if he is as passionate as you say about game development, then where is it? Where did it go? Because its not in Dawntrail. And its not in XVI either.

We are not asking elden ring level of open world but any random gatcha game these days could serve the job,.

This video didn't explain why it's focusing on Yoshi really other than, top guy = buck stops with him
Sort of valid, but it's a bit of a bait title considering how little it really sites actions that are 'definitely' Yoshi.
Ignoring the title though the video kind of rings true.
I haven't liked an FF 'really' since XII, for an these reasons.
XIII, too Railtrack
XV I gather went quite railtack
XVII looks like a Railtrack movie
XVI I'm sorry, I started it, battle with accessories was not very engaging, and battle without for me was immediately confusing and too hard, but there was nothing enticing me too continue and practice and get better. (The medieval world didn't vibe with my personal tastes either)
Resting on 'just' story is risky, DT is a perfect example of this. (It certainly doesn't work for me)

I won't be back for 'just' MSQ if the next expansion, unless they slash the price. Little voice over. Very little 'quality' cutscene animation. (Stick figure in game animation)

When you think about it £30+£7 if you don't feel any of the MSQ 'gameplay' is worth repeating is not great value.
Thats about £10 shy of a full blown A* title (maybe not on new release) that you can play 'forever'. I saw Cyber 2077 was about £50 the other day.

Gameplay is important. If what you do isn't relevant or doesn't have impact there is no game. At least not in RP.

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Originally Posted by Gurgeh

This video didn't explain why it's focusing on Yoshi really other than, top guy = buck stops with him

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Did you not watch the video? Yoshi P's mindset is that he does not want to leave any players behind by having them struggle, so he ensures that Final Fantasy XIV and Final Fantasy XVI are incredibly simple on a gameplay standpoint, which makes the game themselves feel incredibly shallow and it shows. There's a pattern with how Yoshi P approached game design that does become evident in other projects that he is a part of (that being XVI). Because Final Fantasy XVI gearing system is completely shallow and pointless. There's like a lack of options, but it gives you the illusion that there is when there really isn't. Yoshi P may just be a producer of XVI, but he does have a HUGE influence on how its designed.

I'm pretty sure that a good majority of players are fed up with Yoshi P choosing to not innovate the recent games he's been part of, and they really do want more innovation with a game that has now felt outdated for many years. But we're just not getting it. Yet, when we criticise Yoshi P, the people who are so emotionally attached to Yoshi P do not take it well, and they start chucking a tantrum. But the thing is, Yoshi P works for a company, and these company are not your friends, yet people treat them like they are due to one sole person. If they refuse to innovate FFXIV same old basic formula, then there is nothing people can look forward to, given that the writing of the game has gone to complete trash with the evidence of Dawntrail. So what is going to keep the average player coming back now?

So yes, the title is justified.

tl;dr: Yoshi P should be fairly held accountable for the stagnation of his game design philosophy, and no one should defend bad game design choices out of emotional attachment, especially when you are a paying customer for a live service. You are not a friend of Square Enix just because you think Yoshi P's your friend.

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Originally Posted by Edelgarde

Did you not watch the video? Yoshi P's mindset is that he ...

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Yes I did watch the whole video. It was very anecdotal, and I lot of 'extrapolation' from "this one thing Yoshi said off the cuff 7 years ago"

Yes I did watch it.
Good video, and I get the title. But it isn't 'heavy' on Yoshi
Most of what I see in CS3s games I see in other FFtitles for years, little to do with Yoshi.
Yes I did watch the video. I like it. It has something that rings very relevant.