Please nerf overpowered Jobs before Chaotic Raid

As title say, please fix it, before the raid, it is ridicoulous as it is now... it does not require Masters Degree to be able to see the issues.

What is the problem, and what exactly do you propose the solution?

EDIT:

Woah look at that.
Chaotic came out and it turns out RDM is the meta caster because raise is way more valuable than extra DPS.

I'm glad you people aren't in charge of balance decisions.

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Originally Posted by Collin_Sky

What is the problem, and what exactly do you propose the solution?

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See every "Pictomancer needs a nerf" thread and basically, reduce the potency of the job across the board - it should not have this much damage, especially not with having decent mobility, ease of play and defensive utility (Tempera Coat/Grassa, Star Prism heals during bursts).

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

See every "Pictomancer needs a nerf" thread and basically, reduce the potency of the job across the board - it should not have this much damage, especially not with having decent mobility, ease of play and defensive utility (Tempera Coat/Grassa, Star Prism heals during bursts).

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PCT is fine in every single fight aside from FRU.
In every savage and extreme fight (aside from Honey B) it is either middle of the road or 2nd at absolute highest. It is absolutely fine in content without excessive downtime. This problem is exclusive to ultimate content and is not worth burning a job into the ground because of a subset of (poorly) designed fights.

So I ask again, how do you fix it without burning it to the ground in fights that it is perfectly fine in?

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Originally Posted by Collin_Sky

PCT is fine in every single fight aside from FRU.
In every savage and extreme fight (aside from Honey B) it is either middle of the road or 2nd at absolute highest. It is absolutely fine in content without excessive downtime. This problem is exclusive to ultimate content and is not worth burning a job into the ground because of a subset of (poorly) designed fights.

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The problem is not that ultimates are poorly designed. The problem is that the jobs in XIV are poorly designed and the vast majority of content needs to be designed to accommodate them.

If jobs were less rigid and had more interesting rotations, we wouldn't have this problem. They've designed themselves into a corner that's very difficult to get out of.

If they werent going to nerf picto in 7.1 for the ultimate, then they arent going to for the chaotic in 7.15. Next chance we might see anything would be 7.2

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Originally Posted by TomsYoungerBro

If they werent going to nerf picto in 7.1 for the ultimate, then they arent going to for the chaotic in 7.15. Next chance we might see anything would be 7.2

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Yoshida already said that they're just refusing to nerf anything because numbers going down "feels bad", so they'll buff every job until they're on PCT's level and further trivialize all pre-buff content in the process.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

Yoshida already said that they're just refusing to nerf anything because numbers going down "feels bad", so they'll buff every job until they're on PCT's level and further trivialize all pre-buff content in the process.

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Literally impossible.

PCT is playing a different game to the other jobs. On a striking dummy, PCT performs the same as the other jobs already. As soon as there is downtime that prevents other jobs from being able to build resources, PCT can use this time to paint and as a result, pulls ahead massively.

They need to either move away from the cookie cutter 123 build/spend rotations or prevent PCT from benefiting from painting during downtime.

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

or prevent PCT from benefiting from painting during downtime.

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or they give jobs a way to also benefit from downtime. The simple fact is that downtime in fights (especially ultimate it's excessively frequent) is really, really boring. I say that as someone with over 100 ultimate kills and well over 2000 ultimate pulls. Downtime in these fights is always the most boring part. Give me something to do beyond just standing around and letting mechanics resolve around me. It's so boring, but PCT at least has something to do there beyond standing doing nothing.

When PCT came out people were praising its design because of how much it fits the class fantasy and doesn't feel like other jobs. Now that it's exposed how poorly designed other jobs are by comparison, people are crying for nerfs instead of asking for other jobs to be given such a soulful redesign instead, it's pathetic.

People who have literally never stepped into a single one of these fights are complaining about things they do not understand without considering what it would actually do to the job or how it would impact the balance outside that specific fight.

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

Literally impossible.

PCT is playing a different game to the other jobs. On a striking dummy, PCT performs the same as the other jobs already. As soon as there is downtime that prevents other jobs from being able to build resources, PCT can use this time to paint and as a result, pulls ahead massively.

They need to either move away from the cookie cutter 123 build/spend rotations or prevent PCT from benefiting from painting during downtime.

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The former. They should do the former. Because nuking the 1 interesting new job design we've gotten since Shadowbringers knee-capped job design is the absolute worst choice they could make.

I don't give a single shit if Picto is broken in ultis. If that's the price to pay for a new standard of job design, then I'll see it paid with a smile on my face.

PCT is ahead of the next best dps (DRG) by 2k rDPS (32.7k vs 30.7k, a difference of 6%).
AST is ahead of the next best healer (WHM) by 1k rDPS (17.6k vs 16.6k, also a difference of 6%)

We should also nerf AST, it's way too OP compared to other jobs in its category for FRU, clearly, yet no one is talking about that. Curious.

AST also offers far more raid buffs and has more shields than WHM, its direct competitor, a common complaint we see used against PCT. Surely we care this much about AST domination too, right?

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Originally Posted by IOwn92FCHouses

The former. They should do the former. Because nuking the 1 interesting new job design we've gotten since Shadowbringers knee-capped job design is the absolute worst choice they could make.

I don't give a single shit if Picto is broken in ultis. If that's the price to pay for a new standard of job design, then I'll see it paid with a smile on my face.

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I agree but given recent trends, I wouldn't be surprised if they just make PCT's paintings targeted attacks instead.

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

I agree but given recent trends, I wouldn't be surprised if they just make PCT's paintings targeted attacks instead.

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This would break PCT in ways you do not understand.
After downtime occurs, very often in a fight people will go directly into their burst windows when the next phase starts. This happens quite often as fights often line up like this, P2 into the intermission in FRU is a good example of this.
If PCT could only paint with a target, you have 2 scenarios:
1. PCT has to pre-paint before the boss goes untargetable, potentially failing a DPS check as up to 9 seconds are spent doing absolutely no DPS.
2. PCT has to paint once the boss becomes targetable again, thereby either misaligning its raid buffs with the rest of the party, or forcing the entire party to burst around PCT.

This is not a good solution.

Once again, Ultimate is the only content in the game this is a problem. There is no reason to burn the job to the ground just because of ultimate fights being designed around excessive downtime. Hell, I'd go as far as to say ultimates would be much harder and engaging if there was less downtime.

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Originally Posted by Collin_Sky

This would break PCT in ways you do not understand.
After downtime occurs, very often in a fight people will go directly into their burst windows when the next phase starts. This happens quite often as fights line up like this. P2 into the intermission in FRU is a good example of this.
If PCT could only paint with a target, you have 2 scenarios:
1. PCT has to pre-paint before the boss goes untargetable, potentially failing a DPS check.
2. PCT has to paint once the boss becomes targetable again, thereby either misaligning its raid buffs with the rest of the party, or forcing the entire party to burst around PCT.

This is not a good solution.

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Yeah, you'd need to make the decision to burst early and build again when the boss targetable or hold burst until after the boss is targetable. The same as pretty much every other job. I imagine they would also add potency to painting so that it's part of your filler and you aren't doing 0 damage by choosing to paint early/

Like I said before, they need to either make PCT fit the mould defined by the other jobs, or make the other jobs less rigid. I think it would be better to change the other jobs, but these are the 2 possible solutions to the PCT problem.

If they did this, I imagine they would add potency to painting so that it's part of your filler and you aren't doing 0 damage by choosing to paint.

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

Yeah, you'd need to make the decision to burst early and build again when the boss targetable or hold burst until after the boss is targetable. The same as pretty much every other job.

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No. Not entirely.

I used the example of P2 transitioning into the intermission of FRU, so I'll continue with that. During the ~30 seconds of downtime, cooldowns for all other jobs are ticking away and are ready to go almost immediately once the crystals become targetable.
However, PCT requires extra steps to perform its burst. SCH can simply pop Chain Stratagem, WAR can activate Inner Release, and DNC can use Technical Step. While these jobs can hold their gauges, that’s not the same as requiring 9 seconds of GCDs that accomplish absolutely nothing just to set up a proper burst.

PCT is the new sieve job. The development team are scared that if PCT gets nerfed, all those players will literally fall out of the game. What they don't realize is that catering to such players is much worse for the state of the game in the long run. Let them go back to SMN, they'll get over it.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

PCT is the new sieve job. The development team are scared that if PCT gets nerfed, all those players will literally fall out of the game. What they don't realize is that catering to such players is much worse for the state of the game in the long run. Let them go back to SMN, they'll get over it.

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I see this from people like you so often. What slippery slope will we fall down if no changes happen? (Which there won't be because Square has demonstrated they don't know how to balance the game since the implementation of the 5% buff. Grats to everyone who have finally caught up)

Because I saw the same doomsday speak with the healer strike thread. 1k pages and no results. I saw the same doomsday speak with the story. Most people just play the game, vibing, and don't care about what the balance is like. Hell, the vast majority of players can't even play Picto right, making it's power non-existant.

So do tell. How will current state picto kill the game considering the above things haven't, and that the majority of the playerbase is unaware of the issue and/or apathetic?

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Originally Posted by IOwn92FCHouses

So do tell. How will current state picto kill the game considering the above things haven't, and that the majority of the playerbase is unaware of the issue and/or apathetic?

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It won't. Because 99% of the people complaining don't even enter the content PCT is a "problem" in.

It's pretty simple, really.

The reason for adding new jobs is to give players more gameplay styles and aesthetics to choose from. Perhaps someone might play a tank if they had the right job fantasy available. Perhaps you could convince someone to try out melee if the right job existed. It helps attract and retain players. That's why they invest dev time into releasing new jobs each expansion.

When you have one job that completely dominates a role (and PCT most certainly does this) and is a lock to the slot, then those alternative jobs might as well not exist. Suddenly, players who would have played that role are forced to either swap to the dominant job, change roles, or if there's no role that they still want to play at that point, then they quit. And what happens at high levels of play filters down and influences perception at even the most casual levels of play (even if it shouldn't), because people talk. Why should you play a job that everyone around you perceives as unilaterally weaker? Balance drives perception, which drives job distributions, which drives retention.

That's why balance matters.

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Originally Posted by Collin_Sky

It won't. Because 99% of the people complaining don't even enter the content PCT is a "problem" in.

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Correct. People too often forget, me included, that our circles here on the official forums, on reddit, discord, whatever app or social media you go through, are a tiny portion of the community. Wanna know what's happening in Limsa right now? Tank Program is still crashing on Ultros. The weeb police are hopping to random servers. And the players are just chatting and chilling. Doing roulettes. Posing with their glam.

Picto isn't on their list of topics today, not because they don't care or don't have the game's health in mind. But because it's unimportant to them. These are the most common types of players. They log in, so whatever, log off, and ffxiv ceases to be a thing in their world.

Picto is 100% an issue in FRU, and in ultis in general, due to its unique interaction with downtime. It's only a real issue in savage if you look exclusively at x:30 kill times (and, if you don't know what that's significant, do some research into what burst does to your parse). But to go so far as to say it's killing the game? Laughable. As always, a PF locking a job out is a red flag. Picto makes the DPS checks trivial in FRU, but, you know what? My group still has to hold DPS in P1 and we have the option of holding CDs in phase 2 with a non Picto, SMN as the caster comp. FRU's DPS check is already non-existent.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

character limit, removing quote

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I've yet to be locked out of my Savage PF clears as Black Mage or SMN. Ive yet to be kicked from an extreme farm for not using picto when I'm caster. I've yet to experience anything negative in relation to roulettes for my job choices. The only lockouts I've seen are in FRU, which, again, is a red flag and not universal.

I'd agree with your assessment if it was reality, but it is not. You're still allowed to pick up a staff or a book or a rapier and do content. The only limiting factors your defeatist attitude.

The average player is unaware that there is a balance issue in ultimates. The average player does not do the research necessary into their jobs to find a balance issue or a hard preference based on performance.

This is a theme park mmo. Most people are here for vibes. A single job in a single role doing more than it should isn't hitting those vibes for most people. And, going off of play rates in casual content, swinging a silly paint hammer is a good vibe.

You can run whatever job you like in old content.

It's fair to make the point that job balance shouldn't make any difference to the casual playerbase. But it still does, in this game, like every other one. Progression means looking up to what better players are doing and emulating their gameplay. Behaviors and attitudes at higher levels of play invariably filter down to lower levels. And that in turn impacts player satisfaction.

That's also the reason, presumably, why they hired a job balance team. Otherwise, just move them off into designing mogstation glamours so that they can generate more profits off those PCT 'vibes'. We'll see how long that strategy lasts.

unhinged reply lmao

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Originally Posted by Lyth

You can run whatever job you like in old content.

It's fair to make the point that job balance shouldn't make any difference to the casual playerbase. But it still does, in this game, like every other one. Progression means looking up to what better players are doing and emulating their gameplay. Behaviors and attitudes at higher levels of play invariably filter down to lower levels. And that in turn impacts player satisfaction.

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Except, here's the thing. What filters down from the Elite Raiders is not typically choice of job. It is: "What is my opener? What is my burst? What is my BiS?" Or sometimes, it is: "Why does my damage suck?" To which the answer is almost always: "Because your uptime sucks."

One singular Ultimate fight is utterly and completely irrelevant.

Even in Party Finder for current savages (M1S-M4S), at this moment, I see none of this alleged locking of slot(s) to PCT. Or locking out of physical ranged. (To say nothing of Duty Finder, but I guess that's "old content.")

Hot take; it's okay for some jobs to be strong under certain conditions.

Only jobs that really need nerfed is all the tank jobs. Make there dps the same as healers.

It's worth repeating, but even if PCT gets nerfed -- which yeah it should, other jobs will still need substantial changes, and buffs. Nerfing PCT will cause a pretty substantial power vacuum.

The fact that the two most overpowered jobs relative to their counterparts in terms of contribution to the raid as a complete set are AST and SCH yet all attention is being given to PCT shows that people are being excessively vibes based with their feelings of how overpowered PCT is

You lose basically the same damage to swapping an AST for a WHM and you lose basically an entire raids worth of utility swapping SCH for SGE. The fact the healer situation doesn’t have excessive party locks when it arguably has even more reason than PCT shows while PCT needs nerfs people are being way too vibey about how strong PCT is

you can just say pictomancer, you don't have to frame it as though you mean anything else

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Originally Posted by IOwn92FCHouses

This is a theme park mmo. Most people are here for vibes.

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This is a very important point, a similar point: literally yesterday, I was talking to someone on a Discord server, and they were complaining about how every Job has a 1000+ potency skill nowdays, and how much that adds a lot of variance to damage because of crits and dire hits and such, my response to that was, you will have to rip my beautiful 1300 pot Technical Finish from my cold, dead hands, like yeah it sucks when it doesn't crit, but then it does get the perfect damage roll, and you just see over 200k damage fly by in one shot and that just makes me smile, I would be doing a lot less damage if it didn't crit, but that's not as important as how good it feels when it does crit, and that feeling is the reason 1000+ pot finishers are so commonplace now.

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Originally Posted by Collin_Sky

What is the problem, and what exactly do you propose the solution?

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Pictomancer is miles ahead of everyone else, at a degree i've never seen in this game. People will meme and say machinist is bad, but its never truly unplayable. Atm if you're bringing black mage over picto you are trolling your group for example

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Originally Posted by Lyth

You can run whatever job you like in old content.

It's fair to make the point that job balance shouldn't make any difference to the casual playerbase. But it still does, in this game, like every other one. Progression means looking up to what better players are doing and emulating their gameplay. Behaviors and attitudes at higher levels of play invariably filter down to lower levels. And that in turn impacts player satisfaction.

That's also the reason, presumably, why they hired a job balance team. Otherwise, just move them off into designing mogstation glamours so that they can generate more profits off those PCT 'vibes'. We'll see how long that strategy lasts.

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this is only a negative when it results in degenerate gameplay behaviors/strategies disseminating through the game's community

I highly doubt there will be multiple 15-20s downtime periods in the 24 man chaotic raid for picto to take advange of. Thats where the real imbalance lies. In full uptime fights the picto problem isnt there.

I feel like this is a parsing competitive problem, like I don't see how this damages the content in general, is the DPS variance jobs THAT high?

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Originally Posted by Volgia

I feel like this is a parsing competitive problem, like I don't see how this damages the content in general, is the DPS variance jobs THAT high?

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We are talking about making up for large mistakes that would lead to failure of damage checks to outright trivializing damage checks in highest-end content. It is, in that context, incredibly high and it isn't something that is about parsing or competitive problems, it's players wanting the path of least resistence and therefore making Pictomancer basically mandatory in quite a lot of parties, at least in the most recent Ultimate.

Indeed I've seen some parties locking in a slot for picto.From what I've heard, picto allows for a death or 2 in the fi al phase where the caster jobs don't.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

We are talking about making up for large mistakes that would lead to failure of damage checks to outright trivializing damage checks in highest-end content. It is, in that context, incredibly high and it isn't something that is about parsing or competitive problems, it's players wanting the path of least resistence and therefore making Pictomancer basically mandatory in quite a lot of parties, at least in the most recent Ultimate.

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Reminds me when people would lock out MCH out of parties because their DPS wouldn't guarantee a min ilvl clear. I guess that's fair considering it's FRUltimate.

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Originally Posted by Reimmi

Pictomancer is miles ahead of everyone else, at a degree i've never seen in this game. People will meme and say machinist is bad, but its never truly unplayable. Atm if you're bringing black mage over picto you are trolling your group for example

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I hate this opinion with a passion. Saying that bringing a black mage over a picto is trolling is misinformation. This is the reason we have party finders locking caster to only picto. Ultimate can be beaten with any caster, that is fact. If your party is not meeting the dps checks and the non-picto caster is playing their job correctly, then someone else in your party needs to learn how to play their job.

Now if you said that bringing a picto makes prog easier because dps checks can still be met even with some small mistakes, then sure, I'd agree. But you know what other job does that? Red Mage, the premier prog job, just through bonus raises instead of bonus damage. Just a reminder, this only applies to Ultimate, because as been said earlier in this thread, pictomancer in a regular fight without all the extra downtime is balanced fine.

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Originally Posted by Pebe

I hate this opinion with a passion. Saying that bringing a black mage over a picto is trolling is misinformation. This is the reason we have party finders locking caster to only picto. Ultimate can be beaten with any caster, that is fact. If your party is not meeting the dps checks and the non-picto caster is playing their job correctly, then someone else in your party needs to learn how to play their job.

Now if you said that bringing a picto makes prog easier because dps checks can still be met even with some small mistakes, then sure, I'd agree. But you know what other job does that? Red Mage, the premier prog job, just through bonus raises instead of bonus damage. Just a reminder, this only applies to Ultimate, because as been said earlier in this thread, pictomancer in a regular fight without all the extra downtime is balanced fine.

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Obviously you can bring one, but in ultimates your damage is much much worse than a picto due to how ultimate works.
It's not nearly as much of an issue in savage/extremes where dps checks are super lenient.

I've yet to be locked out of my Savage PF clears as Black Mage or SMN. Ive yet to be kicked from an extreme farm for not using picto when I'm caster. I've yet to experience anything negative in relation to roulettes for my job choices. The only lockouts I've seen are in FRU, which, again, is a red flag and not universal.

You are lucky then as I am BLM have seen many PF groups who has locked casters to PCT for even Extreme farms. It does happen and it will probably increase unless PCT is changed before Chaotic and every group in the alliance will stack 4 PCT, 12 total and just destroy Chaotic.

Yoshida even admitted in an interview before Savage launched that the raid was tuned to 7.0 stats but 1 job stood out visible, PCT. But rather than fix that 1 job, they increased all others. And with so much time spend on that, they didn't have enough time to retune the raid to the new increased damage and savage was released and made easier than planned.

PCT is breaking the game. Either nerf if, or take it out of Dawntrail and rerelease it with 8.0 when all Jobs gets there so-called redesign. I'm scared what they will do to 8.0 BLM as they fumbled BLM enough for Dawntrail launch.

if there no downtime, then the jobs are fine. You guys didnt touch the content yet and it not available right now.