Can anyone clearly explain "job homogenization" in this game?

I see this word thrown around a lot but I don't think you know what it means.

Please educate me on how jobs are homogenized in this game.

Make sure you are fully articulate and explain your reasoning clearly and thoroughly.

I tried to do it on the other post that was done so I’ll try it again here

Classes in an MMO can be defined by their damage profile (I don’t mean tanks healers DPS support) I mean how their damage is applied and the change in the rate it applies over the course of the fight. There are in my mind 5 “classical” damage profiles in an MMO

1) builder spender- builds a lot of resources using filler then dumps them all within a particular window

2) Sustained damage- doesn’t really care about anyone else just does consistent damage over the fight

3) ramper- has to set themselves up and work towards their eventual higher damage

4) DOT’er/debuffer- focuses on sustained damage via application of damaging debuffs

5) buffer- focuses the overwhelming majority of time and space on buffing others DPS, has little to no self damage


Now let’s looks at the 14 jobs. If we go back to “classical 14” (ie the HW era) these distinctions were far more defined. SCH and SMN were DOT’ers, BLM and PLD were sustained, NIN was a builder spender, MNK was a ramper, AST was a buffer etc. all of the jobs had unique damage profiles that led to unique minute to minute gameplay

Now contrast this with the modern jobs. Every single job in this game (arguably sans SGE) has a massive nuke that is designed explicitly to be pressed once per 2 minutes (or per minute for the tanks). And every job that has a mechanic to buff others damage has that buff out on exactly a 2 minute CD. More and more skills have been altered to allow to stacking into a 2 minute burst (enshroud and awakening having 100 gauge despite needing 50 to burst encouraging triple use of the burst because the 2 minute button gives you a “burst again button”)/lilys being neutral so they are a gain to sync with the buff window and dump misery/moves getting charged allowing you to hold charges for the burst window such as phlegma.

In short everything has coalesced around the two minute burst window and since buffs are multiplicative the burst window becomes so strong that the other styles of combat become unable to keep up and get changed to fit into the buff meta (this is why PLD was redone in EW) Every change they give BLM is designed to push more potency into the burst window so they can burst better (such as 3 charges of xeno and 2 leylines to always keep it aligned with the burst window). Our two DOT’ers basically lost their DOT’s and are now generic buff feeder jobs with pointless buffs and burst focused rotations (SMN especially). The rampers now basically just get buttons that allows them to burst immediately (such as plentiful harvest on RPR) and the buffers have been reduced from meaningful buff maintenance to generic big buffs in the burst window and set and forget buffs outside of it (DNC, BRD and AST)

So in short every job is now just a flavour of builder spender because the only thing that matters is the 2 minute burst window This has also led to the removal of meaningful utility. Between 21 classes we literally have ONE skill that fits the bill of true utility; expedient. Without utility and an overwhelming focus on damage with no alternatives the jobs feel flat and stale, nobody but SCH can offer anything to the party that’s not just a flavour of damage because every ability is either “I do damage” “I make someone else do damage” or “I make the boss hit us for less damage”

Now since every job focuses on building for the two minute window every job hates downtime and hates two target cleave (sans PCT) because the way they have been designed means they really only work in full uptime 2 single target savage and basically every other fight design is just “compensation” for their inherent flaws (jobs like RPR hate not getting gauge in downtime, SAM can’t get stickers etc)


So basically every job has been shoved down into a generic builder spender that only functions on full uptime single target, hates downtime and the majority of its potency comes from big disconnected nukes you press in the burst window. That’s why every job feels homogenised

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

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So what you're saying is that the timing of the job's climax moments is what is homogenized and everything else is very different? This is just how it has to be in a game with raid buffs and mechanics on timers. The two minute burst window is not job homogenization. Having the same timing for the busiest and most impactful moments is not the same gameplay.

It's like going into an icecream store, seeing 27 very different flavors and calling it homogenized because it's all icecream. Of course it's icecream.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

So what you're saying is that the timing of the job's climax moments is what is homogenized and everything else is very different? This is just how it has to be in a game with raid buffs and mechanics on timers. The two minute burst window is not job homogenization. Having the same timing for the busiest and most impactful moments is not the same gameplay.

It's like going into an icecream store, seeing 27 very different flavors and calling it homogenized because it's all icecream. Of course it's icecream.

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No it’s like going to a dessert store and seeing 27 different flavours of ice cream and nothing else

Where is my cheesecake, my mudcake, my doughnuts and my chocolate dishes

Like honestly did you even read my post. I clearly explained that the modern 2 minute meta has ruined job profiles in this game. You can’t play a DOT’er in this game, you can’t play a ramper. You play a builder spender and that’s it’s because the 2 minute meta doesn’t allow anything else to function in the modern job design

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

No it’s like going to a dessert store and seeing 27 different flavours of ice cream and nothing else

Where is my cheesecake, my mudcake, my doughnuts and my chocolate dishes

Like honestly did you even read my post. I clearly explained that the modern 2 minute meta has ruined job profiles in this game. You can’t play a DOT’er in this game, you can’t play a ramper. You play a builder spender and that’s it’s because the 2 minute meta doesn’t allow anything else to function in the modern job design

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I did read your post. I'm not going to take the time to address every single thing you said. I don't agree with the majority of it and addressed what was necessary.

Took me a minute to find the post, but this sums it up pretty well...

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Originally Posted by NegativeS

I'm going to pick two random DoW DPS jobs and go over their rotation. Let's see... VPR, MCH.

VPR: 123 single target combo, or 123 AOE combo. With some variation depending on which button lights up. Occasionally, you can use a different ability that unlocks a separate, harder-hitting combo, and after filling a bar you gain a single use of your 'capstone' combo.
MCH: 123 single target combo. No AOE combo, just one ability plus another that you use off cooldown. Occasionally, you can use a different ability that unlocks a separate, harder-hitting ability, and after filling a bar you gain a single use of your 'capstone' ability.

Okay, two random DoW tank jobs. WAR and DRK.

WAR: 123 single target combo, or 12 AOE combo. Every now and then you hit a different button in your combo to increase damage dealt. You fill a bar to use a more powerful attack, or you use a different ability to use this attack anyway, and every 2 minutes you gain a single use of your 'capstone' attack.
DRK: 123 single target combo, or 12 AOE combo. Every now and then you hit a different button to increase damage dealt. You fill a bar to use a more powerful combo, or you use a different ability to use this combo anyway, and every 2 minutes you gain a single use of your 'capstone' attack.

I hope you understand where I'm coming from.

They can make jobs look as different as they want, and they've done a good job doing so. But, as a person who has played several years, if they stripped all the art and flavor off of every attack and only left the combos and damage, I wouldn't have a clue what job I was playing. Maybe the larger range would give away that I was playing MCH compared to VPR, but you get the point, I'm sure.

(Note: While doing this I did try this with DoM DPS jobs and noted that they are pretty unique, which is why I would guess they are so popular. So, one point for SE. No point in doing it for healers since a healer's rotation is not really set in stone because of healing being reactionary, but I would be glad to go over how similar their builds are if requested)

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Originally Posted by NegativeS

Took me a minute to find the post, but this sums it up pretty well...

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Yeah, it's no wonder the devs don't listen to this community lol. This thread is playing out exactly like I thought it would. Glad I made it because it's good to expose the "homogenization" angle for what it is.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

Yeah, it's no wonder the devs don't listen to this community lol. This thread is playing out exactly like I thought it would. Glad I made it because it's good to expose the "homogenization" angle for what it is.

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https://i.imgur.com/8lYDmxV.png

Alright, well, considering I already had this entire conversation with another different inflammatory forumgoer (sorry diadeem mwah) in two separate threads, I'll just say I hope you find whatever fulfillment you were looking for when you made this thread, cuz I'm not doing it again.

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Originally Posted by NegativeS

Alright, well, considering I already had this entire conversation with another different inflammatory forumgoer (sorry diadeem mwah) in two separate threads, I'll just say I hope you find whatever fulfillment you were looking for when you made this thread, cuz I'm not doing it again.

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You didn't really do anything though you just quoted your own extremely disingenuous post that failed to elaborate or explain specific examples of homogenization. Good on you for knowing when to quit though.

You're clearly not interested in arguing in good faith, but the question is still worth answering for other readers.

Homogenization is a process/direction, not an absolute state. You could also call it "convergence". The opposite would be divergence, in which things become less and less alike over time, kind of like the process of speciation in evolution.

In your ice cream example, it's pretty meaningless to accuse an ice cream store of being "homogenized" without knowledge of their previous offerings. Maybe they always served a handful of basic flavors and have actually branched out over the years, maybe they started off with dozens of unusual flavors but discontinued most of them in an attempt to cut costs and appeal to more mainstream tastes.

So, when we compare the game's current job offerings to those of previous expansions, do we see convergence, or do we see divergence?

Let's just go back one expansion and look at some of the changes that took place between 6.0 and 7.1.

• SAM: Removed Kaiten, changed AoEs from cones to circles, changed subame-gaeshi from stacks to a proc.
  
• NIN: Changed their party debuff to 120s, removed movement constraints on TCJ, reworked their gauge.
  
• DRG: Removed Life of the Dragon, removed Dragon Sight, removed eyes/Geirskogul + Mirage interactions, removed positionals, removed Nastrond cooldowns and then Nastrond stacks, removed spineshatter drives.
  
• MNK: Removed their dot/buffs, which allowed for variable burst windows, and replaced them with a fixed "follow the glowing button" rotation that you just repeat forever.
  
• VPR: Removed their debuff and replaced it with a fixed "follow the glowing button" rotation that you just repeat forever.
  
• SMN: Removed pet management, removed dots, removed, well... just about everything.
  
• RDM: Removed the decay effect from Embolden, removed the multiplication effect from Manafication, removed Disengagement optimization.
  
• BLM: Removed almost all alternative spells lines, removed sharpcast, removed thundercloud in favor of a glorified (vilified?) healer dot, increased the number of instant-cast spells.
  
• PLD: Removed physical/magic phases, removed the dot, and completely reworked the rotation so it functioned as yet another 60s burst job.
  
• AST: Removed pretty much every mechanic involving your cards. No more redrawing, no collecting signs, no more RNG, period.
  
• WHM/SCH: reduced all offensive spell cast times to be 1.5s, like AST.
  
• DNC: Removed most of the RNG from your burst in favor of a mostly fixed sequence.

I'll simply ask you this: name a single example of a change that was made to an existing job in the past three years that made it play less like the other jobs in its role. I provided over 20 examples of convergence, so certainly it shouldn't be that hard to think of a single example of divergence (hard mode: no SCH).

^i was literally going to point out that a single example I can think of is that Seraphism introduces a form of soft conflict with recitation which is unique compared to either synergy or hard conflict (even if it’s an extension of what already makes SCH unique) but you pre-empted me with no SCH

I think people tend to confuse 'homogenization' with 'being subject to the same set of rules as everyone else'. Most jobs have to maintain some degree of uptime in order to generate their burst. PCT ignores this. Of course, when you point out a simple balance fix for it, there's pushback. Not because people care about 'homogenization', but because they like knowing that they like being more powerful than everyone else with zero skill investment.

The fact that the devs cater to this sort of mindset is a strong indicator that they probably need fresh views on their five person job design team.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I think people tend to confuse 'homogenization' with 'being subject to the same set of rules as everyone else'. Most jobs have to maintain some degree of uptime in order to generate their burst. PCT ignores this. Of course, when you point out a simple balance fix for it, there's pushback. Not because people care about 'homogenization', but because they like knowing that they like being more powerful than everyone else with zero skill investment.

The fact that the devs cater to this sort of mindset is a strong indicator that they probably need fresh views on their five person job design team.

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Or maybe PCT reveals that “everyone hates downtime some just compensate for it slightly better than others” is a flawed design mindset from the outset

WHY DO WE CONSTANTLY HAVE ULTIMATES FULL OF DOWNTIME WHEN EVERY JOB HATES DOWNTIME. This has never made sense to me. The modern job design hates downtime.

Downtime is one of the things that makes jobs fun, because it changes the way you approach them. If every single encounter was a full uptime dummy, combat would be extremely boring.

Sorry I don’t mean downtime doesn’t make it fun to plan out I mean why is every job (sans PCT) completely and utterly designed for full uptime and barely functions in periods of high downtime then we go and make fights that have high downtime

Like PCT isn’t a “problem” in terms of its core design, it just shows that designing every job so that they barely function with lots of downtime is a dead end of design

Jobs whose burst is mostly cooldown gated and don't care too much about uptime to build gauge like DRG and NIN scale quite hard when a lot of downtime is involved. You see them doing quite well after PCT in the current statistics.

PCT is simply a "special" new case in which the job is forced to do no damage for X amount of seconds every 2 minutes in full uptime so when this no-damage situation is removed, they gain plenty of potency. However, since it's also coupled with extremely high burst potential, it all sums up to the situation we're in now.

Another example would be SAM, which has some problems in Ultimates due to Higanbana's DoT duration but whose Meditate ability can generate quite a bit of potency if allowed to channel for its full duration. Whether that is enough to compensate or not is a different question though.

The issue is more that there's also lots of jobs that dislike not having uptime due to their gauge (VPR, RPR, MCH, RDM...) but have no decent tools to deal with it. I don't think all jobs should have the same tools however but I would like some more variety in general, for both uptime and downtime purposes.

For instance, many DPS jobs such as DRG have been ninjafied over time: everything is about the 2-minute window with, perhaps, milder 1-minute ones. The main difference between NIN and DRG, then, is that the latter's 1-minute bursts are strong enough when compared to 2-minutes. Since plenty of jobs are now in this paradigm of weak and/or boring filler and very strong burst, what made NIN more unique in the first place (besides trick) has been lost.

It's not an easy problem to solve: do we give all jobs similar tools and thus homogenize them, or do we try to keep them all different enough without digging deeper into the homogenization pitfall we're already in?

It's often said that the latter option poses the risk of alienating (or creating the perception of) jobs from battle content but this has already been happening with roles such as casters for a while, so at this point the issue is not strictly about homogenization but also the agonizingly slow balance passes from SE. We only get adjustments for numbers in (some) bigger patches, thus prolonging any unbalanced state for long periods in any given expansion.

Love the fact that in a thread where OP outs themselves as an insecure troll unwilling to engage in actual exchange of opinions and trying to "expose" people instead, there is actual good information about the issues regarding the current job design philosophy.

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Originally Posted by Aco505

It's not an easy problem to solve: do we give all jobs similar tools and thus homogenize them, or do we try to keep them all different enough without digging deeper into the homogenization pitfall we're already in?

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Thing is, this is why Square Enix has actual game designers on their payroll (though the current class design team is really in desperate need for new talent) whos job it is to solve this conundrum. This is a problem they have created and have doubled down on despite the producer of the game claiming to want to break away from it as well. Ideally, classes are able to do similar things in a different way.
While speaking of classes, we also need to keep in mind that fight design is also inherently intertwined with them. Like back in Heavensward, where Paladin was a good tank, but undesired in Raids because they excelled in physical mitigation, and Raid Damage was almost purely magical.

It's important to keep in mind that homogenization can look different in different games, even of the same genre.

Generally speaking in MMORPGs, you'll see one or multiple of four kinds of homogenization:

* Conceptual homogenization. This is frequent in games with multiple sides, where you want two warrying sides to have a similar type of class with relatively minor differences. For example in Dark Age of Camelot each of the three factions has a "bolt caster", but the Wizard of Albion, the Eldritch of Hibernia and the Warlock of Midgard aren't 100% carbon-copies of each other, either.
* Implementation homogenization. This is the most frequent one, where your effective classes are flat out sharing abilities are entire sub-areas. Branching sub-classes often have this, since they keep the shared parent classes. WoW has this, as its classes have ~3 specs each, but also base elements that they share. All tanks in this game share a Provoke ability, Rampart, a big CD, a short CD, etc. This exists in FFXIV, but it's not as prevalent as what we mostly talk about here, which is...
* Gameplay homogenization. Here your abilities might or might not be different, but that's not the important part. Rather, the resulting player interaction is near-identical. This usually gives itself away because you can set up "similar enough" hotbar setups between jobs of each homogenization group. Also certain scaffolding like limited in-combat rezzing or (the big one in FFXIV) a fixed burst window cycle heavily feed into this as they require classes to ultimately all play the same in many regards.
* Lore homogenization. This is an RPG/Story specific thing, and usually not what people mean, but it's important to bring up: For ease of writing, you might see the origins/story/lore of two+ classes be merged or simplified to the point it might as well be merged. This often happens in expansions in MMORPGs where new area X is found, and new race Y you find there just happens to have melee class A and healer class B, yeah they're both of our tribe, congratulations, you can now also do this.

In FFXIV we usually talk about the third thing. About how our jobs "lost identity", because they all have such similar gameplay. In fact you can set up all 4 tanks virtually identical in hotbar layouts, and by and large you even go through the same button-motions (not 100%, but so much is mirrored it's just weird). Healers are the same, by and large they are copies of one another with 3-4 unique elements each. DPS are a bit better, but my melee jobs are surprisingly similar in hotbar setup, too!

But it's also important to keep in mind that at least implementation and gameplay homogenization cannot be avoided as a game evolves and ages. Simply due to numbers:

* As you add more and more classes - assuming your players want that, sometimes you get lucky and they're not at all interested in "MOAR!" - you will naturally run out of ways to keep first 10, then 20, then 30 classes balances. For ease of tuning, gameplay homogenization is important. If players roughly press equivalent buttons, the profile of damage is similar, so it can be tuned in equivalent ways.
* Likewise, further into a game's life, implementation homogenization becomes always a necessity. You can only conceptualize so many types of nukes, backstabs and heals. You'll have to copy&paste sooner or later.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

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Jobs are not designed for full uptime. If they were, you would expect sustained DPS jobs like BLM would be consistently on top.

Historically, jobs operated on timer-dependent burst. Jobs which were more burst orientated unsurprisingly did more damage during downtime. So they fixed this, and opted for burst to be resource-gated. Now they've ignored their own fix for this problem with PCT. That makes it a major problem.

It's really quite simple. If you want to burst, you need uptime to earn that burst.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Jobs are not designed for full uptime. If they were, you would expect sustained DPS jobs like BLM would be consistently on top.

Historically, jobs operated on timer-dependent burst. Jobs which were more burst orientated unsurprisingly did more damage during downtime. So they fixed this, and opted for burst to be resource-gated. Now they've ignored their own fix for this problem with PCT. That makes it a major problem.

It's really quite simple. If you want to burst, you need uptime to earn that burst.

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We literally have examples of jobs underperforming or falling apart because they don’t work with downtime. The PLD rework in EW, BLM being progressively made burstier and burstier or RPR and VPR currently struggling in phase 1 and 2 of FRU

Jobs like PLD in EW are designed to pull roughly equal damage in full uptime with no disconnects, then they wonder why they fall apart when there is downtime, your own description even supports this. Jobs are made to require uptime to fulfil their burst, so they don’t work with downtime. PCT precisely works because it likes downtime, everyone else just has various ways of partially mitigating it

Downtime, uptime, you'll never balance the game around just those variables tied to damage and nothing else if you want variety. Trying to argue or half ass anything within that lack of parameters to play around will only result in migraines because it's not objectively solvable. Since the current battle system design is sanctified to the devs, their only option for balance is to use the holy sandpaper on jobs in order to remove their rough edges so that they all fit neatly into the same hole.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I tried to do it on the other post that was done so I’ll try it again here

Classes in an MMO can be defined by their damage profile (I don’t mean tanks healers DPS support) I mean how their damage is applied and the change in the rate it applies over the course of the fight. There are in my mind 5 “classical” damage profiles in an MMO

1) builder spender- builds a lot of resources using filler then dumps them all within a particular window

2) Sustained damage- doesn’t really care about anyone else just does consistent damage over the fight

3) ramper- has to set themselves up and work towards their eventual higher damage

4) DOT’er/debuffer- focuses on sustained damage via application of damaging debuffs

5) buffer- focuses the overwhelming majority of time and space on buffing others DPS, has little to no self damage


Now let’s looks at the 14 jobs. If we go back to “classical 14” (ie the HW era) these distinctions were far more defined. SCH and SMN were DOT’ers, BLM and PLD were sustained, NIN was a builder spender, MNK was a ramper, AST was a buffer etc. all of the jobs had unique damage profiles that led to unique minute to minute gameplay

Now contrast this with the modern jobs. Every single job in this game (arguably sans SGE) has a massive nuke that is designed explicitly to be pressed once per 2 minutes (or per minute for the tanks). And every job that has a mechanic to buff others damage has that buff out on exactly a 2 minute CD. More and more skills have been altered to allow to stacking into a 2 minute burst (enshroud and awakening having 100 gauge despite needing 50 to burst encouraging triple use of the burst because the 2 minute button gives you a “burst again button”)/lilys being neutral so they are a gain to sync with the buff window and dump misery/moves getting charged allowing you to hold charges for the burst window such as phlegma.

In short everything has coalesced around the two minute burst window and since buffs are multiplicative the burst window becomes so strong that the other styles of combat become unable to keep up and get changed to fit into the buff meta (this is why PLD was redone in EW) Every change they give BLM is designed to push more potency into the burst window so they can burst better (such as 3 charges of xeno and 2 leylines to always keep it aligned with the burst window). Our two DOT’ers basically lost their DOT’s and are now generic buff feeder jobs with pointless buffs and burst focused rotations (SMN especially). The rampers now basically just get buttons that allows them to burst immediately (such as plentiful harvest on RPR) and the buffers have been reduced from meaningful buff maintenance to generic big buffs in the burst window and set and forget buffs outside of it (DNC, BRD and AST)

So in short every job is now just a flavour of builder spender because the only thing that matters is the 2 minute burst window This has also led to the removal of meaningful utility. Between 21 classes we literally have ONE skill that fits the bill of true utility; expedient. Without utility and an overwhelming focus on damage with no alternatives the jobs feel flat and stale, nobody but SCH can offer anything to the party that’s not just a flavour of damage because every ability is either “I do damage” “I make someone else do damage” or “I make the boss hit us for less damage”

Now since every job focuses on building for the two minute window every job hates downtime and hates two target cleave (sans PCT) because the way they have been designed means they really only work in full uptime 2 single target savage and basically every other fight design is just “compensation” for their inherent flaws (jobs like RPR hate not getting gauge in downtime, SAM can’t get stickers etc)


So basically every job has been shoved down into a generic builder spender that only functions on full uptime single target, hates downtime and the majority of its potency comes from big disconnected nukes you press in the burst window. That’s why every job feels homogenised

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Adding to this you can also check the history of big job partial or total reworks and they stop before Stormblood jobs. SAM, RDM, DNC, GNB, RPR, SGE, all have had some changes happening here and there don't get me wrong (kaiten removed), but they're still at the core the same jobs with the same mechanics. Now go back before... MCH? Has nothing left from the original. DRK? Same, just hasn't gone through a huge rework but saw things constantly removed from it every expansion until not much remained. AST? The job that gets partially or completely reworked every expansion? MNK? Reworked. NIN? Reworked (but perhaps for the best?). DRG? Finally starting to get reworked in depth this expansion too, and let's not talk about BLM. SMN got completely reworked into something else last expansion. Healers got it the least, but they still got a lot of changes whether it's WHM or SCH. PLD completely reworked, WAR as well over time.

I always felt like the "job homogenization" was an exageration. As much as I totally agree for tanks (nearly every skill has it's counterpart in every job), it's not true for DPS and Healers (except maybe WHM and AST sharing some similarities - I didn't play them enough at high lvl).

Even the arguments presented in this thread talk more about job simplification than homogenization. Or resullt of the 2 min meta that was asked by the players for years before everyone realized it was a bad idea. I swear to god, people in this game are really bad at reflecting on and analyzing the problems, and often end pointing a real symptoms under a fake problem. Except for tanks (and maybe WHM and AST), homogenization is not a problem, 2 min meta and simplification are. None of the melee ranged or magic jobs feel the same. Even the barrier Healers don't feel the same.

The same kind of argument can be made about content, where people claim it's predictability problem or the time between patch being too long, when the problem is that the content has no shelf life. Unpreductability would be nice plus, but if the content continue to be one time and never again, not being predictable and being every 3.5 month instead of 4.5 won't change anything, the problem is the nature of the content we get.

And then people complain about the dev team being out of touch (well, that's not totally untrue), when their complaints continue to be out there, pointing at problems that are, at best a result of the core problem.

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Originally Posted by AlgernonBlackwood

You're clearly not interested in arguing in good faith, but the question is still worth answering for other readers.

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I'm not interested in arguing about this period. This thread is for you to explain to me and state your case about homogenization. I personally do not believe this game has homogenization, I am just interested in actually understanding where the people who believe it does are coming from.

It's also good for you to put it into clear words so it's out there in an organized thread.

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Originally Posted by CNitsah

I always felt like the "job homogenization" was an exageration. As much as I totally agree for tanks (nearly every skill has it's counterpart in every job), it's not true for DPS and Healers (except WHM and AST sharing some similarities).

Even the arguments presented in this thread talk more about job simplification than homogenization. Or resullt of the 2 min meta that was asked by the players for years before everyone realized it was a bad idea. I swear to god, people in this game are really bad at reflecting on and analyzing the problems, and often end pointing a real problem under a fake problem. Except for tanks (and maybe WHM and AST), homogenization is not a problem, 2 min meta and simplification are. None of the melee ranged or magic jobs feel the same. Even the barrier Healers don't feel the same.

The same kind of argument can be made about content, where people claim it's predictability problem or the time between patch being too long, when the problem is that the content has no shelf life. Unpreductability would be nice plus, but if the content continue to be one time and never again, not being predictable and being every 3.5 month instead of 4.5 won't change anything, the problem is the nature of the content we get.

And then people complain about the dev team being out of touch (well, that's not totally untrue), when their complaints continue to be out there, pointing at problems that are, at best a result of the core problem.

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I don't see the homogenization with tanks though. How is warrior gameplay even remotely similar to paladin or gunbreaker? I don't know anything about dark knight, but it seems to be the same in being totally different than the other three.

Every tank simply needs to have cooldowns for tankbusters. That said, they are all different executions and forms of the same result. It's like my icecream argument. Tank cooldowns are different flavors of icecream. If you look at the way they play rotationally and how they feel though, every single tank is wildly different. Even if you stripped away all animations and made it so they were hitting with fists and wearing plain clothes, they would feel and flow completely differently.

Reading through this thread is amusing though. People really can't clearly articulate how homogenization exists in this game. They just say "it's homogenization1!!" without actually explaining their reasoning. I think it's good because maybe you'll learn to appreciate the differences through your failures to express yourselves.

"DPS all deals damage and has 2 minute burst windows that's homogenization!" "Healers all heal and two are barrier two are pure healers that's homogenization!!" "Tanks all have tank cooldowns!! Homogenization!!" "They keep simplifying jobs that's homogenization!!"

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

Every tank simply needs to have cooldowns for tankbusters. That said, they are all different executions and forms of the same result. It's like my icecream argument. Tank cooldowns are different flavors of icecream. If you look at the way they play rotationally and how they feel though, every single tank is wildly different. Even if you stripped away all animations and made it so they were hitting with fists and wearing plain clothes, they would feel and flow completely differently.

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I think tank are homogenized in the sense that you can play one, you will be able to play the others. It's the same mentality with every tank. Sure they all have a dps gimmick, but for the rest it's essentially the same. I think could totally create a tank without cooldown. For example a tank that get a "minus 15% damage" as long as it does its combos well, wouldn't have the 40% CD and invulnerability, and could have a bigger one linked to the moment he uses its burst. Or a tank based on decreasing dammage dealt by mobs instead of decreasing the damage you get. It's just some idea I came up with in the past 10 min, that I didn't though much about (so no need to go "It wouldn't work in XIV because ..."), but my point is more you can imagine doing thing another way.

But yeah, despite thinking the tank are the most homogenized, I also think they still get enough individuality on the "cosmetic/skills" side. But when it comes to the mentality/the gameplay loop behind them, it's the same process in its core, with a few tweak. Compared to Dragoon, Ninja and Samurai for example, it's not the same gameplay with a few tweak. the way each plays is more different than any tanks is.

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Originally Posted by CNitsah

I think tank are homogenized in the sense that you can play one, you will be able to play the others. It's the same mentality with every tank. Sure they all have a dps gimmick, still, but for the rest it's essentially the same. I think could totally create a tank without cooldow. For example a tank that get a "minus 15% damage" as long as it does its combos well, wouldn't have the 40% CD and invulnerability, and could have a bigger one linked to the moment he uses its burst. Or a tank based on removing dammage given by mobs instead of augmenting the damage dealt. It's just some idea I came up with in the past 10 min, that I didn't though much about (so no need to go "It wouldn't work in XIV because ..."), but my point is more you can imagine doing thing another way.

But yeah, despite thinking the tank are the most homogenized, I also think they still get enough individuality on the "cosmetic/skills" side. But when it comes to the mentality/the gameplay loop behind them, it's the same process in its core, with a few tweak. Compared to Dragoon, Ninja and Samurai for example, it's not the same gameplay with a few tweak. the way each plays is more different than any differences between the tanks.

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Yeah I agree, they have room and it is possible to create much more different tanks and jobs in general. I just don't really see the issue with the minor level of "homogenization" that exists, and would argue it is necessary for the current abilities of the jobs that exist in order for them to be viable. It's such a low level of shared function that I can't really see it as homogenization. The core gameplay of every single job is wildly different in this game.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

Yeah I agree, they have room and it is possible to create much more different tanks and jobs in general. I just don't really see the issue with the minor level of "homogenization" that exists, and would argue it is necessary for the current abilities of the jobs that exist in order for them to be viable. It's such a low level of shared function that I can't really see it as homogenization. The core gameplay of every single job is wildly different in this game.

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Yeah, I also don't think it's too much of a problem, but I can also see how it can legitimately be one for other players. It wouldn't be fair to totally dismiss the argument when I can see it to some degree with some jobs. That's why I talked about the problem being exagerated, not about being a non problem.

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Originally Posted by CNitsah

Yeah, I also don't think it's too much of a problem, but I can also see how it can legitimately be one for other players. It wouldn't be fair to totally dismiss the argument when I can see it to some degree with some jobs. That's why I talked about the problem being exagerated, not about being a non problem.

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Yeah I am trying not to argue that it doesn't exist, the thread was made to understand where they are coming from because every time I see people talking about it, they come across as totally illogical and don't articulate their reasoning clearly or at all.

Even in this thread it is still difficult to understand where they are coming from.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

Yeah I am trying not to argue that it doesn't exist, the thread was made to understand where they are coming from because every time I see people talking about it, they come across as totally illogical and don't articulate their reasoning clearly or at all.

Even in this thread it is still difficult to understand where they are coming from.

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Okay here is 2 questions for you

1) what is your barometer for homogenisation? Let’s say I took what most people would consider the two most similar classes in SCH and SGE. Now let’s look at SCH as the baseline as it’s the older class. How much “more” similar does SGE have to be for you to be consider them homogenised? If I gave SGE deployment would that be enough? Do I have to give SGE a fairy as well? Where is the “sufficiently similar” line for you

2) why is your barometer of homogenisation more important than anyone else’s barometer. If you don’t think SCH and SGE are sufficiently similar but say person a down the street does why is your barometer more important than his one

No offence but basically you asked us to articulate our thoughts then every one you’ve basically gone “nuh uh that’s not homogenisation” if you won’t offer a valid barometer as to what your definition of homogenisation is and why our examples don’t meet it then your opinion is functionally less than worthless because you are just applying personal feelings as an “authority” over others opinions who are actually trying to back themselves up with points

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Okay here is 2 questions for you

1) what is your barometer for homogenisation? Let’s say I took what most people would consider the two most similar classes in SCH and SGE. Now let’s look at SCH as the baseline as it’s the older class. How much “more” similar does SGE have to be for you to be consider them homogenised? If I gave SGE deployment would that be enough? Do I have to give SGE a fairy as well? Where is the “sufficiently similar” line for you

2) why is your barometer of homogenisation more important than anyone else’s barometer. If you don’t think SCH and SGE are sufficiently similar but say person a down the street does why is your barometer more important than his one

No offence but basically you asked us to articulate our thoughts then every one you’ve basically gone “nuh uh that’s not homogenisation” if you won’t offer a valid barometer as to what your definition of homogenisation is and why our examples don’t meet it then your opinion is functionally less than worthless because you are just applying personal feelings as an “authority” over others opinions who are actually trying to back themselves up with points

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1) If they don't play the same, there isn't homogenization by definition. Scholar has passive healing through the fairy, sage needs to deal damage to get healing through a similar but completely different mechanic. If sage's bits passively healed in the form of being robotic fairies, sure I'd say there is homogenization. That's not how they play though. You're just conflating the two jobs because they both are barrier healers. None of scholar's output is based on damage dealt, and that's the primary identity of sage. Even the ways their barriers work are completely different.

2) it's not, in the end it's up to the devs to decide who they want to take seriously. Going off what you've been posting, it's a very hard sell that there is homogenization in this game.

Wait I’m confused. What is there to not get?

Homogenisation is when they put stuff that clearly belongs on one job onto another, that makes them feel the same gameplay wise.


Like making all four healers have effectively identical filler attack spells with the same 1.5 cast time because they wanted to homogenise the role with AST’s faster casts (Glare / Broil / Dosis \ Malefic). There isn’t a functional difference outside of flat potency between any of these abilities, despite them existing on four different jobs. Un-homogenising them would mean giving them each unique filler attack spells that fit with the actual job’s design/identity and not just matching Astrologian’s cast times across the entire role lol. I.E WHM having a longer cast higher potency filled, SCHs could have a debuff attached, Astrologian’s could remain a 1.5s cast, and Sage’s filler could have a chance to proc Addersting or the Kardia effects could be different when Eukrasia is up.

I mean if we want the perfect example of a time in which the devs pursued homogenisation to the point it made the game worse, we need look no further than Heavensward phys ranged. They designed Machinist as a pseudo-caster with the ammo system to work around casts, then randomly decided to add cast times to literally every Bard weaponskill they had. There was no functional reason for it, no gameplay advantage, and Bard already had casts on their songs anyway. There was no need for them to copy+paste Machinist’s entire job gimmick onto Bard, but they did it solely for the sake of ‘homogenisation’ - to make them play and feel the exact same.

Why do they choose to ‘homogenised’ classes by making them all do the exact same things in the exact same ways? That’s easier to answer. Easier job balancing lol

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Originally Posted by Connor

Wait I’m confused. What is there to not get?

Homogenisation is when they put stuff that clearly belongs on one job onto another, that makes them feel the same gameplay wise.


Like making all four healers have effectively identical filler attack spells with the same 1.5 cast time because they wanted to homogenise the role with AST’s faster casts (Glare / Broil / Dosis \ Malefic). There isn’t a functional difference outside of flat potency between any of these abilities, despite them existing on four different jobs. Un-homogenising them would mean giving them each unique filler attack spells that fit with the actual job’s design/identity and not just matching Astrologian’s cast times across the entire role lol. I.E WHM having a longer cast higher potency filled, SCHs could have a debuff attached, Astrologian’s could remain a 1.5s cast, and Sage’s filler could have a chance to proc Addersting or the Kardia effects could be different when Eukrasia is up.

I mean if we want the perfect example of a time in which the devs pursued homogenisation to the point it made the game worse, we need look no further than Heavensward phys ranged. They designed Machinist as a pseudo-caster with the ammo system to work around casts, then randomly decided to add cast times to literally every Bard weaponskill they had. There was no functional reason for it, no gameplay advantage, and Bard already had casts on their songs anyway. There was no need for them to copy+paste Machinist’s entire job gimmick onto Bard, but they did it solely for the sake of ‘homogenisation’ - to make them play and feel the exact same.

Why do they choose to ‘homogenised’ classes by making them all do the exact same things in the exact same ways? That’s easier to answer. Easier job balancing lol

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Sure, healer dot and single target filler spell is all the same. They're healers after all, the distinction between the jobs is their healing not their damage. Even then though, outside of their single target filler cast and dots they all have very different damage spells.

I've played bard and mch at level 80 and both are completely different. Like what, tactician troubadour and shield samba existing means the jobs are the same? It's not even about easier job balancing, it's about keeping different jobs viable in all content and preventing role stacking from occurring. They want us to bring a diverse set of jobs to each encounter, that's a good thing.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

It's not even about easier job balancing, it's about keeping different jobs viable in all content and preventing role stacking from occurring. They want us to bring a diverse set of jobs to each encounter, that's a good thing.

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That doesn’t make any sense. Why does being healers mean all their attacks have to be the same? And I mean, if you’re really going to say Scholar and Sage have completely different healing profiles then, I really don’t know what to say.

Oh yeah, they’re doing such a good job of balancing the game right now…not like they had to enforce limit break restrictions and party stat bonuses to stop jobs being locked out of parties entirely. Phys range did barely holding on by a thread and you truly see that as ‘different jobs being viable?’ Are the viable jobs in the room with us now?

Phys ranged shared damage reduction is absolutely an example of homogenisation. Tell me, what exactly is the reason for them to be completely identical? ‘Because one would get locked out it wasn’t’, you say? Gee, if only there was a category of literally shared skills where they can put an ability and have it shared between all jobs in that role. So, why exactly are they taking up ability slots that could be used for actually unique skills when they have the role skills category that does the exact same thing? Because that cannot be handwaved by ‘it makes them all viable’ lol

You’re acting as if homogenisation has to be literally 100% for it to count as existing? Like the sheer fact that one or two minor abilities exist that aren’t homogenised somehow completely nullify the ones that are. Minor acts of homogenisation can be just as damaging or indicative or an issue as major ones. MCH having a 1-2-3 weaponskill combo where Bard doesnt isn’t evidence that homogenisation doesn’t exist lol.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

1) If they don't play the same, there isn't homogenization by definition. Scholar has passive healing through the fairy, sage needs to deal damage to get healing through a similar but completely different mechanic. If sage's bits passively healed in the form of being robotic fairies, sure I'd say there is homogenization. That's not how they play though. You're just conflating the two jobs because they both are barrier healers. None of scholar's output is based on damage dealt, and that's the primary identity of sage. Even the ways their barriers work are completely different.

2) it's not, in the end it's up to the devs to decide who they want to take seriously. Going off what you've been posting, it's a very hard sell that there is homogenization in this game.

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So both barrier healers have a means of applying a passive regen that when factoring in fairy potency is literally designed to be functionally exactly the same potency. Both have a button to temporarily buff the output and both have functionally 100% uptime on said regen but since SGE has to actually do damage to attain said regen (even though they are functionally never not going to be doing damage) then it’s not homogenisation?

I’m sorry but your definition of homogenisation is literally “if the jobs aren’t exactly the same sans their name they aren’t homogenised”

That’s such a wildly restrictive definition as to be functionally useless in discussion

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

So both barrier healers have a means of applying a passive regen that when factoring in fairy potency is literally designed to be functionally exactly the same potency. Both have a button to temporarily buff the output and both have functionally 100% uptime on said regen but since SGE has to actually do damage to attain said regen (even though they are functionally never not going to be doing damage) then it’s not homogenisation?

I’m sorry but your definition of homogenisation is literally “if the jobs aren’t exactly the same sans their name they aren’t homogenised”

That’s such a wildly restrictive definition as to be functionally useless in discussion

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the process of making things uniform or similar.
"the fear of cultural homogenization is a barrier to some multinational businesses"

Yeah I don't really see it.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

the process of making things uniform or similar.
"the fear of cultural homogenization is a barrier to some multinational businesses"

Yeah I don't really see it.

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Healer skills have literally been made uniform and you don’t consider that ‘uniformity’? I think you might need to reread

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

the process of making things uniform or similar.
"the fear of cultural homogenization is a barrier to some multinational businesses"

Yeah I don't really see it.

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So you haven't seen things becoming uniform and similar when more jobs like old Paladin was moved to fit under burst, all raid buffs were made 2minutes, Healers having one button dps rotations, a 30s dot, very very similar healing kits, tanks all being 1, 2, 3 builder spenders, the list goes on and on

People aren't complaining that literally everything is the same, people are complaining that the game is slowly removing more and more of what made a job stand out, which is by definition homogenization, because its a process of things becoming similar, we're still in that process with some variance but if you look with each expansion despite gaining new jobs things have become more similar and uniform overtime.

Either way seems you don't actually want to engage with others, which is a shame but I'm not surprised.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

the process of making things uniform or similar.
"the fear of cultural homogenization is a barrier to some multinational businesses"

Yeah I don't really see it.

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Because you only see what aligns with your viewpoint. We point out that healers have been massively homogenised on their damage profiles but you deny that because healers are divided by their healing, so we point out that the barrier healers have near identical healing kits where SGE abilities were blatantly designed to copy SCH ability to varying effects (soteria copies union, Zoe copies recitation, druachole copies lustrate, kerechole copies sacred soil, kardia copies embrace) and you deny that because kardia and embrace technically are applied slightly differently even though to the end user this never makes a difference. However even though healers are defined by their healing tanks have to have similar tanking kits which justifies why their tanking skills are so similar but their core damage rotation also isn’t homogenised because they slightly differ in their burst profile, then we point out that every job has been forced to be a builder spender despite them not originally being a builder spender but that’s also not making the more similar because that’s a balance consideration

You quoted a definition that says “to become similar” but every time classes become more similar you either deflect it as a balance consideration (which doesn’t make it not homogenisation) or say “if it’s not exactly the same it’s not homogenisation” despite clear evidence existing that it’s more similar than it used to be

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

Sure, healer dot and single target filler spell is all the same. They're healers after all, the distinction between the jobs is their healing not their damage. Even then though, outside of their single target filler cast and dots they all have very different damage spells.

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You do realize that is a completely arbitrary rule that wasn't the case prior to ShB, right? Healers were defined just as much, if not more, by their offensive skillsets (or secondary support skillsets, like AST's card system). You're accepting "one nuke, one DoT" as a sensical design choice, not because it's a normal expectation of healers in MMORPGS (it's not, nor would it be considered acceptable in any other modern multiplayer game), but simply because it's all you know (as evidence by the fact that you seemed to have no idea what Connor was talking about when they brought up SB-era cast times on PRanged and instead started fixating on the modern version of the job's mitigation skills, of all things).

Also, yes "very different damage spells", lol. You have damage neutral heals (Pneuma, Macro), damage neutral mobility (Toxicon, Misery), and your 40/60/120 cd nukes (Phlegma, Assize, Psyche, Oracle, Bainful Impactation, Glare 4), most of which you can only press once a minute, at best. That's it. Well, aside from energy drain (AKA: "the most interesting offensive healer ability in the game"), but that's a true fossil that the devs have already established that they'd love to axe.

Even if we are just talking about healing, there is very little diversity compared to other MMORPGs. Every healer just has slightly different ratios of burst/HoT/shields/%mitigation. Something like "heals when dealing damage" isn't a mechanical identity because it doesn't actually change the way a player approaches playing SGE. It's pure flavor. Every healer wants to keep casting their offensive spells as much as possible, which means at best it's simply rewarding you for playing it the exact same way as every other healer. Contrast with Disc Priest in WOW, whose healing scales with their damage inflicted, requiring the playing to plan their offensive bursts around healing demands. Or imagine if all of SGE's AoE heals worked like Healing Waltz, requiring you to keep track of your Kardia target and plan around their position.

Well at least I understand where you guys are coming from now. Can't say the game is ever going to change the way you want it to though. Small degrees of homogenization are what keeps the jobs viable in every situation. It's necessary and not a bad thing.