Suggestion Identity for Phy Range Jobs

I way thinking a bit on how we can fix current Phy range identity I would draw it this way:

1- MCH:
Attack range is High
90% of the weaponskills walk casting (PVP)
High damage focus on machines more

2- BRD:
focusing more on songs part
Attack range is High
mix between walk casting (PVP) and actual casting.

3- DNC:
Keep the buff identity
Attack range is medium (it is range but having some skills that need to be done melee)
High move speed
ability to extend buffs by moving nearby allies


what do you suggest for Phy range?

Yeah, I mostly agree except I feel like for BRD its songs have become paradoxically too important right now in terms of damage contribution, and rotation mechanics, especially in terms of death recovery, and to a certain extent, solo play -- like BRD barely a playable job with out having a song running. I think BRD needs more damage that is independent of its songs as well as continuing to improve song usability.

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Originally Posted by mallleable

Yeah, I mostly agree except I feel like for BRD its songs have become paradoxically too important right now in terms of damage contribution, and rotation mechanics, especially in terms of death recovery, and to a certain extent, solo play -- like BRD barely a playable job with out having a song running. I think BRD needs more damage that is independent of its songs as well as continuing to improve song usability.

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What I mean by BRD focusing on songs is how we can have a system for songs to be performed..

DNC must press standard dance then have to see the RNG buttons shine.

I want BRD to press different tunes to perform song(similar to ninjitsu system).. each 60s have mini game song to empower current buff even more.

I want DNC and BRD to have more rDPS than nDPS

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Originally Posted by BabyYoda

What I mean by BRD focusing on songs is how we can have a system for songs to be performed..

DNC must press standard dance then have to see the RNG buttons shine.

I want BRD to press different tunes to perform song(similar to ninjitsu system).. each 60s have mini game song to empower current buff even more.

I want DNC and BRD to have more rDPS than nDPS

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Oh I see. It would be cool if the game could handle simultaneous inputs so we could play chords both in performance mode, and in combat.

More rDPS than nDPS is crazy and wouldnt work in the current system. It would also essentially completely nullify their viability in other types of content like solo or especially deep dungeons / eureka / bozja if even supports can deal more damage than their squishy asses.

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Originally Posted by BabyYoda

I way thinking a bit on how we can fix current Phy range identity I would draw it this way:

1- MCH:
Attack range is High
90% of the weaponskills walk casting (PVP)
High damage focus on machines more

2- BRD:
focusing more on songs part
Attack range is High
mix between walk casting (PVP) and actual casting.

3- DNC:
Keep the buff identity
Attack range is medium (it is range but having some skills that need to be done melee)
High move speed
ability to extend buffs by moving nearby allies


what do you suggest for Phy range?

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So, essentially going for the path where all ranged should be casters then? Is this really strengthening job identity or homogenizing it?

What does high range vs medium range actually address?

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Originally Posted by Valence

What does high range vs medium range actually address?

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Going to assume medium range attacks deal more damage so it's like a range tax answer.

But what would you gain from high range attacks in the current encounters? You play at melee or medium range 99.9% of the time...

If the whole model actually embraced mechanics that have multiple range bands in mind where the closest to the target the higher damage attacks you could use, then sure though. But it doesn't.

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Originally Posted by Valence

More rDPS than nDPS is crazy and wouldnt work in the current system. It would also essentially completely nullify their viability in other types of content like solo or especially deep dungeons / eureka / bozja if even supports can deal more damage than their squishy asses.



So, essentially going for the path where all ranged should be casters then? Is this really strengthening job identity or homogenizing it?

What does high range vs medium range actually address?

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There should be a mechanism to increase buffs power while in 4 party member or solo..

Miduim range is having range skills and melee skills instead of having walking casting removing range tax completely from the game and forever

DNC have 3 dashes that can be utilized to get in range and out of range

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Originally Posted by Valence

But what would you gain from high range attacks in the current encounters? You play at melee or medium range 99.9% of the time...

If the whole model actually embraced mechanics that have multiple range bands in mind where the closest to the target the higher damage attacks you could use, then sure though. But it doesn't.

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It is like you save melee attacks after the mechanics.. you don't have to be melee all the time it's 50% 50%

Bard should get cast times on its songs again and have them turned back into spells. Make Paean/Minne GCD spells. Return Foe Requiem. Make them drain MP to limit the duration.

Frankly i don’t see the point in ‘just give it more dps’. I mean, first of all we all know that’s never going to happen; we’ll get a 10 potency increase on Empyreal Arrow and that’ll be it for ‘more dps’. I mean, Bard is already fairly high in rDPS so more nDPS would just unbalance it against all other non-blm/Picto ranged and break the balance, would it not?

SE will never risk Bards having good dps after the 4X Bard fiasco at Coil release, they’ve been absolutely fucking terrified of the job ever since lol. So even if it did get ‘more personal dps’, it would be such a minuscule increase it would be completely unnoticeable unless you’re on a PC specifically running metrics. That’s not even mentioning that it would just make Bard laugh even harder at Machinist’s inferior dps contribution lol.

At least if they increase the value of its defensive / non-offensive abilities like Paean/Minne it might have a chance of being worth bringing over a Summoner / Red Mage with Raise. Returning Foe Requiem would still give it a slight overall dps increase; MP drain and long uptime could prevent it being cannibalised by 120-meta. Cast times on songs balances the main three while giving more leeway on rotating them with no cool-down.

I mean, Bard has been at the absolute bottom of the personal dps charts since its inception, and that only changed (slightly) when Dancer was added. Does it really matter if they stay there? Giving every phys ranged cast times is homogenisation, sure, but isn’t making them all even more heavily pDPS oriented homogenisation as well? We have Machinist for phys ranged who want extra high personal dps without having to support the party in any way.

Returning rphys to MP based raid buffs would bring back a lot of identity to the role altogether. MCH included. Making buffing and support actually involved instead of fire and forget buttons would go a long way already.

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Originally Posted by BabyYoda

It is like you save melee attacks after the mechanics.. you don't have to be melee all the time it's 50% 50%

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I see, I didn't exactly understand that you wanted to mix melee attacks into the kit, a bit like with pvp DNC and ShB pve DNC (for burst). Maybe it could prove interesting.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Returning rphys to MP based raid buffs would bring back a lot of identity to the role altogether. MCH included. Making buffing and support actually involved instead of fire and forget buttons would go a long way already.

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Honestly I don’t remember if people liked them or not but I think it’d be pretty cool if Machinist’s Deploy Turret / Promotion made a comeback. Not as an actual pet ofc, just the mechanic itself lol. They could have the promoted turrets give debuff effects to keep in line with Machinist being more ‘offense oriented’ as opposed to the defensive/healing support oriented Bard/Dancer. Though they’d probably need to separate Queen Automaton from Rook Autoturret first or there’s be a SMN Carbuncle situation with it popping in/out at certain points lol.

Rook Overdrive could restore more MP if Promote is used for a shorter duration to make applying buffs for short periods and switching between them more regularly more worthwhile than just using one and forgetting about it until you hit 0MP. Or maybe they could add a MP recovery effect to Double Check / Checkmate so Hypercharge phases doubles as an mp maintenance one? Idk just random thoughts.

Basically I do feel like if they did want to lean more into the ‘phys ranged = support dps’, there’s plenty of space for Machinist to fit into that niche too without having to give up it’s more ‘offensive oriented’ nature. Not that anyone is saying otherwise lol I just think it’s worth pointing out since I know a lot of people prefer Machinist precisely because it has a (somewhat) more ‘offensive’ leaning than Bard and Dancer

If any phys range job has walking casts it should be BRD because its the only phys range job that has a weapon that requires charging, knocking an arrow and letting it go makes far more sense then a gun cast. Other than that instead of a cast but DNC having its spin move from pvp in pve its something that I literally can't understand why hasn't been added into PVE, that skill just suits DNC so well and would be so much fun in AOE and its already in the game just rework it slightly for PVE.

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Originally Posted by Ramiee

If any phys range job has walking casts it should be BRD because its the only phys range job that has a weapon that requires charging, knocking an arrow and letting it go makes far more sense then a gun cast. Other than that instead of a cast but DNC having its spin move from pvp in pve its something that I literally can't understand why hasn't been added into PVE, that skill just suits DNC so well and would be so much fun in AOE and its already in the game just rework it slightly for PVE.

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I feel like walking casts would work really well for MCH as well because they are mechanically similar to scoping in/aim down sights mechanics present in most shooters where you can have perfect long ranged accuracy at the cost of limited movement, and field of view. DNC on the hand I absolutely would not want walking casts because the would be wildly inappropriate for the theme, and feeling of the job. If anything I think DNC could benefit from some melee attacks, and maybe something like a walking channel attack like Honing Dance from PVP.

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Originally Posted by mallleable

DNC on the hand I absolutely would not want walking casts because the would be wildly inappropriate for the theme, and feeling of the job. If anything I think DNC could benefit from some melee attacks, and maybe something like a walking channel attack like Honing Dance from PVP.

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This is quite literally what I said

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Originally Posted by BabyYoda

What I mean by BRD focusing on songs is how we can have a system for songs to be performed..
I want BRD to press different tunes to perform song(similar to ninjitsu system).. each 60s have mini game song to empower current buff even more.

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This sounds a lot like the EQ1 bard. You have different songs that pulse for 3 seconds (damage, stun, dot, heal, root, etc.). Changing instruments gave you different effects (such as drum would increase your run speed). There were certain instruments that would allow you to weave up to 4 different songs (Lyre of the Bard IIRC) where you could freeze a target in place, and all they could do is just stand there watching their HP dwindle to nothing. The trick was you had to constantly press your buttons. If you missed a beat your song would end prematurely, and your rotation disrupted. They didn't use bows (that was the ranger class), only instruments.

Would be kind of cool to have a class like that.

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Originally Posted by Gaiinahat

This sounds a lot like the EQ1 bard.

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It's actually a pretty common design overall, expecially in older MMORPGs and RPGs.

For another example that is ~same, see DAoC Albion Paladin. For a design clearly inspired by this albeit mechanically distinct, see GW2 Revenant Herald-spec.

I would love meaningful cast times on MCH and BRD and I mean that visually. Like Bard calling Moogles to play instruments and directing them like an Orchestra Conductor. Or MCH stopping to actually build something like a machine gun turret or teleport pad that other party members can walk thru for quick movement wherever they have placed the second pad.