MSQ Questing in response to Yoshida's interviews

Recently Yoshida has done some interviews at Gamescom and one particular point of criticism has been brought up; Pacing, or specifically the pacing of quest content during Dawntrail's MSQ.

While there's valid criticism about the pacing of the story and writing itself, this post is specifically about actual gameplay and questing, and how I feel Yoshida may have somewhat misunderstood that particular point of criticism.

I will say, it's entirely possible that Yoshida does actually understand what some players have been saying in their criticisms of this point, and it was simply lost in translation or Yoshida simply was being general.

Personally, I think the issues with Dawntrails questing that have been brought up is less about "Players want to get to the combat/dungeons/trials faster" and more that some players would like there to be more gameplay variety during the MSQ. This is actually something I think has been a bit of an issue throughout 14's lifetime, but the conversation is starting to happen more now in Dawntrail.

What I feel like 14 needs is more mechanical variety/minigames etc. that help break up the "Walk here/Talk to this NPC" that starts to get a bit monotonous during the MSQ. It would be good to find more ways to give players more variety in what it is they're doing during a quest, and these don't even need to be too in depth. Some of these could even be failable and simly give alternative dialogue, if difficulty for more casual players is a concern.

I know the "stealth" tailing quests had a mixed reception, but I at least appreciate the attempt to add some variety to the questing gameplay.

Games Development is difficult and some things need prioritising over others, so I understand why this is an easier ask than it is to address, but I think it's still worth discussing. And I would really enjoy having more types of activities and mechanics to do during my MSQ Questing.

It's interesting to hear that some players want more variety, and for those who want it, that's a valid thing to ask for.

Personally, I don't. I like experiencing the story when it's well-written, and I like experiencing boss-style combat encounters. That's the core of what I want from the MSQ. That's what I keep coming back for.

I wouldn't say I'm opposed to mini-games, but activities such as "find the thing through the spyglass" and "wait while they walk slowly, start over if they see you" aren't adding to my experience, and in some cases they are detracting from it by overstaying their welcome and feeling like a chore rather than an enjoyable diversion. If they're going to introduce mini-games, they need to actually make stuff that's enjoyable. And my concern would be that the process of refining a mini-game so that it's truly enjoyable might take more bandwidth than they have to spare.

I don't think anyone actually benefits if they put more depth into the questing experience of the MSQ. This game is built upon its instanced battle content and trying to shoe-horn more depth into monster killing, NPC chatting, or fetch-questing is just not going to impact players in the long-term. I would much rather see that effort being applied to the repeatable content that comes in the post-game, not the content that the vast majority of players do one time, if not just outright skipping.

That being said, I think this criticism is actually rooted in players wanting a change to the formulaic structure of the game. While the staleness of the FFXIV formula is not limited to its MSQ progression in each expansion, focusing specifically on that area we have had three straight expansions with mandatory dungeons at each odd level and the final level, and trials at 74/84/94, and 79/89/99. For a majority of this game's current playerbase, which started playing at Shadowbringers or later, it's been enough times through the cycle now that a lot of people are just seeing how formulaic this game is and begging for anything to excite or surprise them as they progress to the new maximum level.

why response?

I mean he tells us that he reads form.. I know he is a smart dude who can understand the issue but tried his best to avoid it

I agree that more things like In From The Cold would be welcome (from me at least, there was a massive backlash when they tried something different for once). Finding things, sneaking around enemies while weak and using brains is too much in some people's view.

The interviewer said he used diplomatic terms. I really wonder how he laid it out, because it's not just mixed reception, it's downright disappointment and frustration. I usually hate to mention it but the numbers speak for themselves here for the reviews.

They'll condense the msq going forward so get the next dungeon after 1 or 2 quests. They won't do overworld content which most people dislike already. Is fighting a wave of enemies in purple circles after every quest really going to improve the experience? No. Xiv has never had varied overworld content, much less during msq. The game that offers that is called Gw2.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

I agree that more things like In From The Cold would be welcome (from me at least, there was a massive backlash when they tried something different for once). Finding things, sneaking around enemies while weak and using brains is too much in some people's view.

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I really enjoyed In from the Cold before they nerfed it to the ground. To me it felt immersive enough to be 'lost' without direction surrounded by things that can easily kill you, to me it really showed me the mariana trench that is the difference in power between pepega NPC and us. Also in a way it kinda put us in Zenos' shoes to experience what he went through and what he may have overcame when a certain someone yoinked his body. As someone who loves Zenos alot, I appreciated this duty so much. A pity it got nerfed honestly, but I'm glad I experienced it as it was prior.

I enjoyed Thancred's stealth mission too...

What I hated were the new 'escort' quests they shoved in our faces in EW. I wish there was more combat encounters between this endless talking. It feels almost too much of Go here, pick this item, talk to this guy...or simply talk to this guy > talk to that guy > return to this.

I really enjoyed the solo duties in the Endwalker MSQ, especially those playing at other NPCs to experience a different perspective of the story in a manner that's not just cutscene watching. I was disappointed we had less of these during the Dawntrail MSQ, it could've certainly made things a bit more engaging at times. The minigames are nice as well, if a little predictable, as they make the world more than just go to X and talk to Y. One can only hope we get more solo duties and a greater variety of open world activities as part of the MSQ in 7.x onwards.

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Originally Posted by Rueby

I really enjoyed In from the Cold before they nerfed it to the ground.

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I don't believe they actually nerfed it. They just added an easier version which you can select if you fail it the first time. However, old duties usually get a "Warrior of Light" buff generally.

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What I hated were the new 'escort' quests they shoved in our faces in EW.

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Well I appreciated them in the sense they were commonplace in many games I played growing up. To see something like that in FFXIV or really any MMORPG seemed different than the standard here's an enemy, kill it for quest...

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It feels almost too much of Go here, pick this item, talk to this guy...or simply talk to this guy > talk to that guy > return to this.

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It doesn't feel like that to me, but I suppose that's because I actually watch the cutscenes and follow the story. I feel like if the story isn't really what you're itching for then it can lead to this desperation for something to break up the go to person and talk.

I know what it feels like to want to do something other than "talk to this guy > talk to that guy > return to this".

...because I've experienced this feeling when skipping on an alt since it gets boring skipping for hours. But the game is not designed with skippers in mind and I don't experience this feeling at all my first time through while watching cutscenes.

The attack on Tuliyollal and even the train sequence to an extent not being solo instances of combat still feels incredibly criminal to me, especially when the former would have been the easiest way in the world to not have the WoL and crew be present in the Throne Room events.

I get that these instances are far from the most engaging but they're also one of the easier ways to make the player's presence matter and also ... I mean it's a video game, there should be some game content. And they're certainly more engaging than listening to Wuk prattle on about peace and understanding for the 427th time. But seriously, while I don't want to suggest more limitations to go by, if there should be a dungeon every odd level, I feel like there should be a decently-sized solo instance every even level, or at least something every map "chapter". It doesn't have to be fighting either, many people proposed the cooking thing to be a mini-game in other threads/forums. Some of these ideas could even be used and expanded on through seasonal events.

Dawntrail delivering it's story almost entirely through reading, cut-scenes and the bare minimum of combat through mandatory odd level dungeons felt incredibly uninspired to me, and makes me wonder what people mean when they said "this expansion was about trying things". 'Cause depending on how I feel when you ask me sometimes it feels like the answer to that is "Well we tried doing nothing and it turns out people don't really like that".

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Originally Posted by Rekh

They'll condense the msq going forward so get the next dungeon after 1 or 2 quests. They won't do overworld content which most people dislike already. Is fighting a wave of enemies in purple circles after every quest really going to improve the experience? No. Xiv has never had varied overworld content, much less during msq. The game that offers that is called Gw2.

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It's not even about having actual content, but just ambience. And by that I don't means stuffs like lighting or visual, FF14 is great at those. But stuffs that make a zone feel alive, and not just a pretty pictures. And frankly it's not just GW2, most MMO I played does this better than FF14. For examples:

In WoW Wotlk, the Wyrmrest temple is a raging battleground that every time you visit you can feel the conflicting exploding around it.

In SW:kotor, go down to places like the undercity on Corrusant and you can witness various factions duking it out.


Another things is the expansion zones are often too big, pointlessly big even. This makes the few set pieces they have feel far and few in between. I feel 2.0 zones were much more focus and enjoyable because they were more alive. For example:

In Northen Thanalan, it feels like the bottom half of the map belongs to us, pushing to the top half and you got into empire territory. Same with Mor Dohna
In Eastern Shroud, most area is peaceful but going deep into Sylphic plan feels like a small expedition into a mystical land.
Samething for Aleport, despite being such a small map, it has two distinction when you're on the Maelstrom side of the gate or not.

Comparing that to the zone in DT and the DT just feels ... flat and static. Again, they looks pretty, but that's about it. There is no sense of ownership or large divide, they're just a big map with landmark scatter around filled with randomly placed monsters.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

I don't believe they actually nerfed it. They just added an easier version which you can select if you fail it the first time. However, old duties usually get a "Warrior of Light" buff generally.

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Did you actually play it after they changed it? Because when I was running my alt through EW again they may have as well held my hand through it all on the normal difficulty. The objectives are much clearer, which to me was the charm point of that duty- to get lost in it. But maybe this is an unpopular opinion (and likely super biased because I put alot of personal significance to that duty)

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Well I appreciated them in the sense they were commonplace in many games I played growing up. To see something like that in FFXIV or really any MMORPG seemed different than the standard here's an enemy, kill it for quest...
It doesn't feel like that to me, but I suppose that's because I actually watch the cutscenes and follow the story. I feel like if the story isn't really what you're itching for then it can lead to this desperation for something to break up the go to person and talk.

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I also follow the story and the only time I ever skipped a thing was Hildi, because it's not my cup of tea. I've felt this way alot in EW and now way more in DT where I'm constantly forced to either read alot of text or listen to exposition dump/too much dialogue with nothing to break it up. I jokingly said to my friend they really put the walk in Endwalker. The escort was cute, but it overstayed its welcome for me. I think they were really excited for this new feature and wanted to use it alot which I don't blame them for, it's not a bad one.

But yeah I agree with you if the story isn't interesting people might ache for something different. I just am very particular about what I like, usually if my favorites or parts I'm interested in aren't on screen I'm kinda bored and wonder when they'd be.

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I know what it feels like to want to do something other than "talk to this guy > talk to that guy > return to this".

...because I've experienced this feeling when skipping on an alt since it gets boring skipping for hours. But the game is not designed with skippers in mind and I don't experience this feeling at all my first time through while watching cutscenes.

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I actually agree. This game is awful if you want to skip it, my experience comes from my hobby of creating alts to relive the MSQ again but EW effectively killed it. I've leveled around 11 alts with various levels of MSQ progression, 5 of them are actually caught up to EW. I don't mind it much on second playthroughs, even if I'm breezing through it, though I usually don't because I always seem to find something I missed on my first run etc.

However, I feel this often on my first playthrough, I need to engage in combat to take a break from all the talking. I don't enjoy unvoiced cutscenes, and it's why I'm on EN voices because it gives me a break from having to read. But I want to press buttons and actually play too...

DT is the worst for me, because I actually have no interest in the story but I keep hoping it gets better but it only seems to get worse....which makes me crave the dungeons/trials that people are on about. Aka the 'good stuff' supposedly.

The trials this expansion felt like perfect opportunities to add some gameplay variety but they just refuse to go for it. And it's not like they need to reinvent the wheel or anything, they could just look at already existing minigames and implement those at a few places in quests.

Like let us actually aim and shoot at the robots attacking the train like one of those Gold Saucer Gates. Let us try and catch an alpaca like it's a chocobo race. Let us dance at the Hanuhanu festival with a rhythm minigame like in the Firmament. I could go on but you get the point.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

It's not even about having actual content, but just ambience. And by that I don't means stuffs like lighting or visual, FF14 is great at those. But stuffs that make a zone feel alive, and not just a pretty pictures. And frankly it's not just GW2, most MMO I played does this better than FF14. For examples:

In WoW Wotlk, the Wyrmrest temple is a raging battleground that every time you visit you can feel the conflicting exploding around it.

In SW:kotor, go down to places like the undercity on Corrusant and you can witness various factions duking it out.


Another things is the expansion zones are often too big, pointlessly big even. This makes the few set pieces they have feel far and few in between. I feel 2.0 zones were much more focus and enjoyable because they were more alive. For example:

In Northen Thanalan, it feels like the bottom half of the map belongs to us, pushing to the top half and you got into empire territory. Same with Mor Dohna
In Eastern Shroud, most area is peaceful but going deep into Sylphic plan feels like a small expedition into a mystical land.
Samething for Aleport, despite being such a small map, it has two distinction when you're on the Maelstrom side of the gate or not.

Comparing that to the zone in DT and the DT just feels ... flat and static. Again, they looks pretty, but that's about it. There is no sense of ownership or large divide, they're just a big map with landmark scatter around filled with randomly placed monsters.

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So you want fake destruction for the sake of it. That's worse than the current design. If you make an evironment that looks like it's going through conflict it better have the content to back it up. At that point you're asking for Gw2; it would be a completely different game; you'd have to sacrifice having leveling dungeons and more.

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Originally Posted by Rekh

So you want fake destruction for the sake of it.

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If you want to label having a better ambient and dynamic open world as "fake", then yes I want the fake. I think they're better than this real.

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At that point you're asking for Gw2;

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No, I'm not asking for GW2, I'm asking for what I think is a better experience.

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it would be a completely different game; you'd have to sacrifice having leveling dungeons and more.

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Idk, WoW had both open world and dungeon contents, sames goes SW:KOTOR, same goes for most MMO that I have played. Don't know why you talk like these things have to be mutual exclusive.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

If you want to label having a better ambient and dynamic open world as "fake", then yes I want the fake. I think they're better than this real.

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You asked for a fake environment even if it doesn't have content in it.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

It's not even about having actual content, but just ambience.
In WoW Wotlk, the Wyrmrest temple is a raging battleground that every time you visit you can feel the conflicting exploding around it.

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Fake conflict without content.

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No, I'm not asking for GW2, I'm asking for what I think is a better experience.

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Then you're asking for Gw2, it's the mmorpg that does open world the best; of the big 4. world of warcraft doesn't even come close.
https://mmorpg.gg/mmos-for-explorati...mber%202014%20
https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comm...rld/?rdt=62199
https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comm..._has_the_best/

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Idk, WoW had both open world and dungeon contents, sames goes SW:KOTOR, same goes for most MMO that I have played. Don't know why you talk like these things have to be mutual exclusive.

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WoW? The mmorpg that had the exodus and only recently released a good expansion? If that's the quality you want; quantity over quality, then by all means, let's lower xiv's quality so we can have both dungeons and open world during the msq's launch. If you actually had a clue how a company's ran you'd know you can't just walk tell your workers they now have to add an extra project to their deliverables without removing something from it or by extending the project deadline. Clearly you're clueless how businesses are ran, much less about project management.

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Originally Posted by Rueby

Did you actually play it after they changed it?

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On alts, yes.

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Because when I was running my alt through EW again they may have as well held my hand through it all on the normal difficulty. The objectives are much clearer, which to me was the charm point of that duty- to get lost in it. But maybe this is an unpopular opinion (and likely super biased because I put alot of personal significance to that duty)

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Maybe. I suppose I didn't notice it being clearer since I assumed I was lost in exploring the whole place the first time regardless.

And although it maybe feels slightly easier I think this is just because I know what to do and where everything is and how to navigate through it efficiently. A lot of things in this game feel easier when you repeat them because of knowing what to do after all.

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I think they were really excited for this new feature and wanted to use it alot which I don't blame them for, it's not a bad one.

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I think that's really it right there. It's something they developed and it's only logical a developer doesn't want to waste their new feature.

But it could help if they come up with some similar ideas to mix in with it, even if they're from traditional single player games that MMORPGs don't normally copy, and bring those into the MMORPG genre in a similar way, to shake up the concept of killing enemies and picking up/handing over items that MMORPGs have done for decades.

I leveled an alt recently and arr questing was very refreshing compared to the SHb-Ew-Dt era of visual novels
there is kill quests constantly and it feels more like na actual MMO
i'd love to see more of that especilally in slower parts of the story.

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Originally Posted by Rekh

WoW? The mmorpg that had the exodus and only recently released a good expansion? If that's the quality you want; quantity over quality, then by all means, let's lower xiv's quality so we can have both dungeons and open world during the msq's launch. If you actually had a clue how a company's ran you'd know you can't just walk tell your workers they now have to add an extra project to their deliverables without removing something from it or by extending the project deadline. Clearly you're clueless how businesses are ran, much less about project management.

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Yes. WoW definitely just had its first good expansion. The people before the exodus stuck around for so long despite every expansion being low quality trash, and somehow all had enough specifically in Shadowlands as well as around the same time we all learned how terrible a place to work at was Blizzard. It was all a coincidence and there's nothing at all to learn from WoW and all of its low quality content that totally did not lead to it being the king of the MMO landscape for so long.

I also struggle to understand what you mean by fake content. FF14's overworld is as fake as it gets. Nothing actually exists here. Any and all content is tied to stuff magically spawning out of thin air to be cleared, be it quest objectives or FATEs. Are you actually defending for the overworld to remain ... empty?

Like, seriously? And maybe if they spent more times thinking about quality overworld content, the quest design wouldn't struggle as much to give the player anything at all to do other than click for the next dialogue box.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

On alts, yes.
Maybe. I suppose I didn't notice it being clearer since I assumed I was lost in exploring the whole place the first time regardless.

And although it maybe feels slightly easier I think this is just because I know what to do and where everything is and how to navigate through it efficiently. A lot of things in this game feel easier when you repeat them because of knowing what to do after all.

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From my personal observation, the fuel tank and also the injured imperial were pretty clearly shown which wasn't before. I'd have to actually run it again to confirm it but I don't think I have it in me to endure the emotional torture that is EW on another char.

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I think that's really it right there. It's something they developed and it's only logical a developer doesn't want to waste their new feature.

But it could help if they come up with some similar ideas to mix in with it, even if they're from traditional single player games that MMORPGs don't normally copy, and bring those into the MMORPG genre in a similar way, to shake up the concept of killing enemies and picking up/handing over items that MMORPGs have done for decades.

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Honestly I hope so

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Originally Posted by LisseyCrowe

Yes. WoW definitely just had its first good expansion. The people before the exodus stuck around for so long despite every expansion being low quality trash, and somehow all had enough specifically in Shadowlands as well as around the same time we all learned how terrible a place to work at was Blizzard. It was all a coincidence and there's nothing at all to learn from WoW and all of its low quality content that totally did not lead to it being the king of the MMO landscape for so long.

I also struggle to understand what you mean by fake content. FF14's overworld is as fake as it gets. Nothing actually exists here. Any and all content is tied to stuff magically spawning out of thin air to be cleared, be it quest objectives or FATEs. Are you actually defending for the overworld to remain ... empty?

Like, seriously? And maybe if they spent more times thinking about quality overworld content, the quest design wouldn't struggle as much to give the player anything at all to do other than click for the next dialogue box.

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Yes, let's dismiss the exodus and call Wow's continual decline "not a problem." It flat out hasn't had quality open world + instanced content in 3+ expansions until the most recent ones; hence the exodus.

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It's not even about having actual content, but just ambience.

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That's fake content. Why would I want tural to be on fire if there's no interactive content to make that meaningful?

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maybe if they spent more times thinking about quality overworld content

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I don't know who you're addressing with that but the conversation's about launch msq and open world. What are you willing to sacrifice for what you're suggesting? Longer development cycles between expansions? Less instanced leveling dungeons?

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Originally Posted by Rekh

You asked for a fake environment even if it doesn't have content in it.

Fake conflict without content.


Then you're asking for Gw2, it's the mmorpg that does open world the best; of the big 4. world of warcraft doesn't even come close.
https://mmorpg.gg/mmos-for-explorati...mber%202014%20
https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comm...rld/?rdt=62199
https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comm..._has_the_best/



WoW? The mmorpg that had the exodus and only recently released a good expansion? If that's the quality you want; quantity over quality, then by all means, let's lower xiv's quality so we can have both dungeons and open world during the msq's launch. If you actually had a clue how a company's ran you'd know you can't just walk tell your workers they now have to add an extra project to their deliverables without removing something from it or by extending the project deadline. Clearly you're clueless how businesses are ran, much less about project management.

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Just saying, but, ARR was made by having the devs LITERALLY look at wow and copy them.
You are playing a game made on the basis of WoW right now.

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Originally Posted by Rekh

Yes, let's dismiss the exodus and call Wow's continual decline "not a problem." It flat out hasn't had quality open world + instanced content in 3+ expansions until the most recent ones; hence the exodus.

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Where did I say it has no problems, exactly? You always strawman your way out of discussions? Btw feel free to explain why the exodus happened exactly when it did (Hint: It's because Shadowlands was really, really bad, not because everyone suddenly had enough at the same time).

Also curious how you plan to justify WoW's open world being worse than FF14's. With an actual argument, possibly, instead of just "It's bad lol". WoW's open world has more enemies, better enemy placement, unique enemies, unique loot, secrets, achievements, secret quests, pets, and that's just the stuff I remember. What exactly does 14 have? FATEs? Hunts are okay, have their pros and cons. Uhhhh ... Sight-seeing log? If you want though, we don't even have to bring WoW into it, since the person you originally responded to talked about how ARR zones had a story to tell just from area and zone placement alone. Or was that just bad fake content, whatever that means, and ARR was a very naughty boy for designing their areas as such.

As for the last statement, it was a hook to other issues the game has had. Putting work here can then be used to make other work easier, so it's not overwhelming and won't require talent to be "spread thin". Which is also something we're supposed to assume just is, because you said it, I guess? You don't know the development, same as us. And this is Square Enix, not some indie company.

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Originally Posted by Reimmi

Just saying, but, ARR was made by having the devs LITERALLY look at wow and copy them.
You are playing a game made on the basis of WoW right now.

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10+ years ago, when Wow was actually great. Did you even read the post? Haha

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Originally Posted by Rekh

10+ years ago, when Wow was actually great. Did you even read the post? Haha

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Soooo you won't have anything against them learning from WoW Classic then? Which still did many of the things that were brought up and immediately classified as "fake content".

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Originally Posted by LisseyCrowe

Where did I say it has no problems, exactly? You always strawman your way out of discussions? Btw feel free to explain why the exodus happened exactly when it did (Hint: It's because Shadowlands was really, really bad, not because everyone suddenly had enough at the same time).

Also curious how you plan to justify WoW's open world being worse than FF14's. With an actual argument, possibly, instead of just "It's bad lol". WoW's open world has more enemies, better enemy placement, unique enemies, unique loot, secrets, achievements, secret quests, pets, and that's just the stuff I remember. What exactly does 14 have? FATEs? Hunts are okay, have their pros and cons. Uhhhh ... Sight-seeing log? If you want though, we don't even have to bring WoW into it, since the person you originally responded to talked about how ARR zones had a story to tell just from area and zone placement alone. Or was that just bad fake content, whatever that means, and ARR was a very naughty boy for designing their areas as such.

As for the last statement, it was a hook to other issues the game has had. Putting work here can then be used to make other work easier, so it's not overwhelming and won't require talent to be "spread thin". Which is also something we're supposed to assume just is, because you said it, I guess? You don't know the development, same as us. And this is Square Enix, not some indie company.

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They won’t (or can’t, even) step up their game, and the game hasn’t been in competitive shape since Legion.

The fact that they’re already reusing systems from 8.2/8.3 in Benthic/Vision Tech Tree should tell you all you need to know about the state of WoW’s future development. They’re unable to compete in the space anymore, and are relying 100% on sunk cost keeping this playerbase going.

WoW was largely unliked in BFA, but Legion was good enough (and M+ fresh enough) to keep people playing in the hopes that they could recapture some form of lightning in a bottle. Shadowlands has all but guaranteed to people they cannot do that again.

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Simple question, Id like to hear everyones different reasons as to when/why/how WoW (for them) started to decline/die out for them. And I dont mean actually dead and forgotten etc I meant… Not as enjoyable.

Ive played for a long time and with the same class ( I havent ever changed since 2006 ) and for me I’d say it was between WOTLK and Cata. Don’t get me wrong. I enjoyed WOTLK for what it was (I peaked as a raider/‘hardcoreness’ in TBC) but IIRC WOTLK was when I started to notice things that irked me… I think the first thing I kind of disliked was the ability for literally 20-40 people to form a huge pug and just go mongoloid on bosses on ‘normal’ raid difficulties without any real preparation and communication. It was wack to me because 10man Karazhan kicked peoples asses for months.

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Cata and MoP.

MoP was the first time had a huge decline in subs. From 10 million to to 6 million.

MoP basically was a warning sign. When a company makes a whole expansion based around pandering to the Chinese market instead of it’s original core market you can tell it’s going for money instead of making a good game. MoP was the foreshadowing to Diablo Imortal.

MoP was the starting of pruning even if WoD pruned harder. Forcing specs instead of trees was the start of the quality of the game for me personally.

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Cataclysm was when I felt like the game was losing its touch but It has some high points in mop and legion again so I think this game has trends of inconsistency in quality

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Quotes from 2019; source blizzard forums

Cata and MoP as is often mentioned came out around the 2010-2012 time period.
https://i.imgur.com/3vqtYXI.png

Continual decline. I bring you proof you just bring words.

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Originally Posted by LisseyCrowe

Soooo you won't have anything against them learning from WoW Classic then? Which still did many of the things that were brought up and immediately classified as "fake content".

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Of course not, specially recent WoW is actually a good product. But you have to realize that ffxiv can't do it all at launc for and during msq-expansion launch. You will have to sacrifice something to get open world content during msq.

Unreasonable requests for a game that's had the same formula since 2015 don't really help the devs. I'd personally like open world stuff during msq and I'd sacrifice nomral raids roulete for it. But then people that do savage will do youtube videos about "square enix hates raiders."

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Originally Posted by Rekh

Of course not, specially recent WoW is actually a good product. But you have to realize that ffxiv can't do it all at launc for and during msq-expansion launch. You will have to sacrifice something to get open world content during msq.

Unreasonable requests for a game that's had the same formula since 2015 don't really help the devs. I'd personally like open world stuff during msq and I'd sacrifice nomral raids roulete for it. But then people that do savage will do youtube videos about "square enix hates raiders."

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If anything all you've proven is they've stabilized spectacularly since WoD despite the controversies, exodus and so-called "bad expansions".

Anyway, moving on. I'm more interested in what you think is actually real open-world content from Classic WoW vs the "fake" open-world content from retail. That would be a lot more constructive. Let the devs decide if they can or can't do something, our job as fans/players/customers is to discuss what they could do.

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Originally Posted by LisseyCrowe

If anything all you've proven is they've stabilized spectacularly since WoD despite the controversies, exodus and so-called "bad expansions".

Anyway, moving on. I'm more interested in what you think is actually real open-world content from Classic WoW vs the "fake" open-world content from retail. That would be a lot more constructive. Let the devs decide if they can or can't do something, our job as fans/players/customers is to discuss what they could do.

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Only in your head is going downhill = Stabilized. In numbers, from around 10 million for 8 or so years down to 5.5 then losing 1 million over the next 6 years.

Ask the OP; he's talking about msq content. xiv doesn't have the capacity for deep open world content with the amount of resources and time launch msq takes. The best they can settle for is heavensward/shadowbringers story telling.

For open world content in general they already created them with bozja, and eureka to a lesser extent. Unfortunately they're locked behind instances instead of being a part of the regular open world. And there's benefit for square enix to do this since they wouldn't have to create brand new locations.

i'm fine with anything as long as they're NOT making fight as Wuk Lamat again

Backseating Wuk Lamat would greatly improve most of the experience, I reckon. I've 'heard, felt, and thought' enough about that character for a lifetime.

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Originally Posted by RyanV

I will say, it's entirely possible that Yoshida does actually understand what some players have been saying in their criticisms of this point, and it was simply lost in translation or Yoshida simply was being general.

Personally, I think the issues with Dawntrails questing that have been brought up is less about "Players want to get to the combat/dungeons/trials faster" and more that some players would like there to be more gameplay variety during the MSQ. This is actually something I think has been a bit of an issue throughout 14's lifetime, but the conversation is starting to happen more now in Dawntrail.

What I feel like 14 needs is more mechanical variety/minigames etc. that help break up the "Walk here/Talk to this NPC" that starts to get a bit monotonous during the MSQ. It would be good to find more ways to give players more variety in what it is they're doing during a quest, and these don't even need to be too in depth.

I know the "stealth" tailing quests had a mixed reception, but I at least appreciate the attempt to add some variety to the questing gameplay.

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Yeah, I wasn't put off by the fact that it took awhile to get to the first dungeon, I was put off by the fact we were given monotonous tasks/quests to get up to that point. There were soooo many "talk to 0/3" bits and mindless exposition and gameplay that just wasn't fun.

For comparison, in Endwalker when the WoL and Thancred/Urianger/Estinien first get to Yedlihmad, there's a fun bit of story with them getting sick, and then dealing with Estinien being bad with money, and then meeting the locals but doing it in an interesting way by trying to help a guy sell some fish. Then later we meet the alchemists and Estinien gets experimented on, the alchemists themselves are unusual, and we're engaged throughout with entertaining moments like that, plus you get insight into character personalities and do a bit more bonding with the ones you're with.
In Dawntrail, when we get to the Pelupelu town, what do we do? Get dry conversations about the locals and get mired in a really boring and LONG trading gameplay which seems nonsensical under the guise of showing how their merchant culture works, make a harness for an alpaca quest we don't even get to see, and generally just feel like we're just being dragged along for the ride.

I think the takeaway is that they need to try significantly harder to make quest/story progression more varied and entertaining from those moment to moment quests. Tossing "talk to 0/3" and dry exposition dump paragraphs at us every 20 feet isn't fun or engaging, and just feels like some bizarre fantasy homework or something. I know it's easier to make and probably faster to design, but it's so boring that you guarantee if anyone does NG+ they'd just skip cutscenes a lot more.

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Originally Posted by Gaddes

In Dawntrail, when we get to the Pelupelu town, what do we do? Get dry conversations about the locals and get mired in a really boring and LONG trading gameplay which seems nonsensical under the guise of showing how their merchant culture works, make a harness for an alpaca quest we don't even get to see, and generally just feel like we're just being dragged along for the ride.

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I think this is one of the most notable issues that makes the story feels dragged out, and it happens constantly during the entire MSQ.
We spent a lot of time in very meaningless, unimportant dialogue and 0/3 quests to get information that doesn't really matter, so that the thing we'd actually have fun being a part of would most of the time be done offscreen. Why couldn't we at least watch her get the alpaca, or make it a solo duty, or a new minigame?

During the Rite there were a lot of parts we would spend a quests talking to 0/3 villagers, gathering stones or something else, and then when we get back and talk to the twins between quests, they tell us how something funny happened and how they were having a good time. Good for you, guys...I really wish I was there instead.
In the cooking contest part, we spend a lot of time talking to people see their obvious hints of things about the dish, spend a lot of time getting exposition on their taco-solved war, and the whole thing feels like a school field trip to a museum...and then when we get to the cooking part, expecting being a part of it, not only we get no minigame for us to take part on, but there's not even a cutscene of the dish being prepared.

When we finally get to the portal of the Golden City for the first time, it's just "ok you got here, let's go back and don't talk about this for a while", like oh.
Ok, cool, great. At least you are going to tell us now about the Golden City and the things Krile has been asking THE ENTIRE TIME, while everyone told her "you will get your answers after the rite"...right? No, Krile gets her answers offscreen, and we don't even get to see her reaction.

The Scions figure out stuff after the trial by themselves while we go back to Tullyolal to hear Wuk Lamat telling Koana what just happened while we stand there, even though it just happened and we were there...

And I'm sure there's more.

It's not about "getting to battle content faster". It's about feeling like I'm getting anywhere. In the past the story already felt satisfying and there were fun stuff happening along the way, so we're not rushing to get to the battle content - it was more about being invested in the story and having payoff moments during the quests.

Now the story is escalator land. It gets us nowhere and there's no payoff...and that's probably why he feels a lot of people wanted to get to battle content faster, because those are the only times during the MSQ we feel like we get to do anything fun.

these threads seam to be constantly popping up now, it feels like everyone wants to say there only small opinions on a massive thread. im not sure thats going to be the best way deliver this feedback.

yoshiP said "he was not surprised about the feedback" and "that he feels he didnt do good with wuk lamat" i think these responses are fine. hes not going to come on PLL and cry because people were so mad about wuk lamat, hes not going to apologise for DT. because this is an entitled belief, that you were owed this. you paid for this expansion and you are not entitled to your money back if you didnt enjoy the msq, since u paid for more than just the msq. are you enjoying the new ex? the new raid? are u enjoying the double dye, the graphics update? are u enjoying anything dt added. no? then its time to unsub and play something else. yes? then you are not entitled to an apology. you paid to watch a movie and you didnt like it. sorry but thats not grounds for appology. speak with you future purchases

WUK lamat is a bad character. but she is not all of dt, the second half of DT was good, interesting and has me excited for 8.0 and patch story. i also want wuk lamat exiled form msq. but i dont think its fair the to underrate dt because of only her

comming off the msq to adress some of you points

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and more that some players would like there to be more gameplay variety during the MSQ. This is actually something I think has been a bit of an issue throughout 14's lifetime, but the conversation is starting to happen more now in Dawntrail.

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i agree. the msq is a visual novel at this point, it is not fun to just spam X to progress. i feel earlier msq did this better. i would like to see something more like ffr7(1) where u are sometimes IN the cutscenes and have to move around in them. i also like how the people in the towns talk as u move around.

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What I feel like 14 needs is more mechanical variety/minigames etc. that help break up the "Walk here/Talk to this NPC" that starts to get a bit monotonous during the MSQ. It would be good to find more ways to give players more variety in what it is they're doing during a quest, and these don't even need to be too in depth. Some of these could even be failable and simly give alternative dialogue, if difficulty for more casual players is a concern.

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i would also like more gold saucer activities and i wish the fans could have more contests for these, it might be easier for the devs then. but atm i can honestly say im happy about dungeon and raid changes, there is more mechanics and more challenge. i really enjoyed the spar with galool ja ja

I'd also like more variety to gameplay when questing.

Recently I made a thread with some thoughts about it:

FFXIV and Quest Design

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Originally Posted by Rekh

Only in your head is going downhill = Stabilized. In numbers, from around 10 million for 8 or so years down to 5.5 then losing 1 million over the next 6 years.

Ask the OP; he's talking about msq content. xiv doesn't have the capacity for deep open world content with the amount of resources and time launch msq takes. The best they can settle for is heavensward/shadowbringers story telling.

For open world content in general they already created them with bozja, and eureka to a lesser extent. Unfortunately they're locked behind instances instead of being a part of the regular open world. And there's benefit for square enix to do this since they wouldn't have to create brand new locations.

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Only in your head does "stabilized spectacularly since WoD" includes everything before WoD. But I understand that your point only stands if you ignore what I say. Fact is that for the last 10 years, an aging game has managed to keep 95% of it's playerbase per year, that is commendable. Or at least that's what I'd like to say, but it's also important to state that your "source" isn't reliable. Blizzard doesn't actually release sub numbers, it's all just estimates. If you read the article it even "didn’t consider the popularity of WoW Classic and the pandemic’s rise in players. But there’s no way to know". You did read the article, right? It's impressive, to be sure, but most of it's information is informed guesswork (which is my way of saying the actual numbers possibly fluctuate a lot more and aren't in fact, in a constant decline as you claim).

And I'm not asking OP, I'm asking you. You're the one dismissing ideas because of being "fake" without ever defining what it means. So please, enlighten us, we're listening!

Bozja and Eureka are interesting pieces of open-world content, that's true. But they feel more like mini-games to me than, dare I say, real. They are, after-all, all about killing specific amounts of enemies to pop special events. Great way to turn one's brain off and kill mobs for an hour, but there's obviously nothing else to do in there either.

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Originally Posted by LisseyCrowe

Only in your head does "stabilized spectacularly since WoD" includes everything before WoD. But I understand that your point only stands if you ignore what I say. Fact is that for the last 10 years, an aging game has managed to keep 95% of it's playerbase per year, that is commendable. Or at least that's what I'd like to say, but it's also important to state that your "source" isn't reliable. Blizzard doesn't actually release sub numbers, it's all just estimates. If you read the article it even "didn’t consider the popularity of WoW Classic and the pandemic’s rise in players. But there’s no way to know". You did read the article, right? It's impressive, to be sure, but most of it's information is informed guesswork (which is my way of saying the actual numbers possibly fluctuate a lot more and aren't in fact, in a constant decline as you claim).

And I'm not asking OP, I'm asking you. You're the one dismissing ideas because of being "fake" without ever defining what it means. So please, enlighten us, we're listening!

Bozja and Eureka are interesting pieces of open-world content, that's true. But they feel more like mini-games to me than, dare I say, real. They are, after-all, all about killing specific amounts of enemies to pop special events. Great way to turn one's brain off and kill mobs for an hour, but there's obviously nothing else to do in there either.

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You're way too emotilnal to comprehend that you've been burned to a crisp with actual proof instead of words. The term you're looking for is a slow decline. You're like those politicians that tell the public we're not in a recession because inflation only went up by some small percent this year as opposed to 20% a few years ago.

Turn your brain off at Red chocobo and Castrum Lacus Litore? Sure.

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Originally Posted by Rekh

You're way too emotilnal to comprehend that you've been burned to a crisp with actual proof instead of words. The term you're looking for is a slow decline. You're like those politicians that tell the public we're not in a recession because inflation only went up by some small percent this year as opposed to 20% a few years ago.

Turn your brain off at Red chocobo and Castrum Lacus Litore? Sure.

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"Quick, quick, distract them with the "You're emotional!" because I don't have any substantive evidence to my claims anymore!"

You are correct, I am having fun with this, which is an emotion. But I think my fun's come to an end, since you've made abundantly clear by now you don't have any opinion or stance at all other than a strong desire to appear in the right, despite not even knowing yourself what right means as you cannot explain it, and so you resort to insults and false data all while hoping the other parties don't look into it.

Have a good day sir, though if I may, a suggestion in return. Maybe study a bit on what open-world design is, you'll be surprised to know it doesn't actually mean combat difficulty. I described Eureka/Bozja as "turn-your brain off" content because all you have to do is kill things, not because the content is easy. But then again, how can you be right if you don't misrepresent someone's point in order to have them defend something they never said?

I was never really bothered by the MSQ structure pre DT because the MSQ kept me interested throughout. They dropped the ball hard though.