Bring back Viper Noxious Gash

It was good, it made us think about when to use dreadwinder instead of just pressing it on cd. Unlike reaper you can't refresh it while in a combo if you don't have dreadwinder, which was it's originality and frankly made it better.
And the most annoying part Is that it was easy to keep it up by just pressing your button on cd, not the absolute best damage wise but still not that big a loss.
The job was already easy, there was some simple complexity that made it more engaging but apparently fun is too dangerous for Square Enix.

And let's not talk how stupid it is to remove the debuff from VIPER the job named after a VENOMOUS snake while the job icon is the two teeth VIPER use to inject VENOM.

I honestly don't even notice its absence.

It could have been a lot worse than what we got. If SE really had to change something I am glad it's this instead of anything else.

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Originally Posted by Amenara

It could have been a lot worse than what we got. If SE really had to change something I am glad it's this instead of anything else.

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The job effectively plays the same as it did before. Watching people in Balance theorycraft a triple reawaken set up has been fun for the morning at least.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

I honestly don't even notice its absence.

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Genuinely, how?

We went from occasionally starting a combo string with the secondary opener to starting every other combo with it. It is undeniably noticeable. You can say you don't mind it, you can even prefer it. But claiming you don't notice anything either makes you a liar or someone who doesn't even read their abilities.

Yes. Defanging the snake is not great fantasy for me. Also made the job feel dull and generic.

Bring black plunge!

And Spineshatter Dive!

And Time Dilation!

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

I honestly don't even notice its absence.

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Then you haven't been playing Viper. Not well, at least.

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Originally Posted by Underscore

Then you haven't been playing Viper. Not well, at least.

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Egh, follow the rotation and tips from the Balance to a T and I still stand by my statement. But thanks! <3

I hope they revert these changes (Other than slither, great change). The class just does not feel as good as before.

It's essentially a much less interesting monk now, viper has a dragon kick starter and a bootshine starter that you alternate between. I believe we call this homogenization of the jobs. At least on Monk I get to throw a hadouken

It's a melee summoner now

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Originally Posted by WhensMarvel

It's essentially a much less interesting monk now, viper has a dragon kick starter and a bootshine starter that you alternate between. I believe we call this homogenization of the jobs. At least on Monk I get to throw a hadouken

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I joked to a friend before that it was Monk with combo consolidation. Now all we need is to convince SE that it's too difficult to track which Blitz to execute and we'll have two almost perfectly homogenized job.

Lol some of you are out of your minds. Viper is not that much different, this does not have significant impact on how you play the class. The combo system was made very slightly easier (shocker they said they were going to do that) and they took out noxious hoo hah in favor of some potency increases so it balances out. It isn't really significantly easier to play, it wasn't hard to play before. Just now you use your #2 opener more often than you used to OH NO!!!!!

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Originally Posted by Karkarov

Lol some of you are out of your minds. Viper is not that much different, this does not have significant impact on how you play the class. The combo system was made very slightly easier (shocker they said they were going to do that) and they took out noxious hoo hah in favor of some potency increases so it balances out. It isn't really significantly easier to play, it wasn't hard to play before. Just now you use your #2 opener more often than you used to OH NO!!!!!

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The removal of Noxious Gnash has removed a noticeable bit of gameplay of the class. Previously, you had to monitor your debuff and make a conscious decision whether to reapply it with Dreadwinder or Dread Fangs. Sure, it was not a super in depth gameplay mechanic, but it was something that kept your mind occupied, even just a little bit. Now the job is on autopilot, no thought required at all. Is that really the gameplay people want, classes that practically play themselves?

The changes to Viper feel genuinely baffling. It hasn't even been a full patch and these level of changes are applied to a job that wasn't struggling... It feels hastily done, a revert would be nice and just add 5-10 more seconds on noxious gash if losing the debuff on enemies mid combo is truly such a huge concern.

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Originally Posted by LynxDubh

And Time Dilation!

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And Rough Divide!
...And Kaiten.

*Sad SAM noises*

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Originally Posted by LisseyCrowe

Genuinely, how?

We went from occasionally starting a combo string with the secondary opener to starting every other combo with it. It is undeniably noticeable. You can say you don't mind it, you can even prefer it. But claiming you don't notice anything either makes you a liar or someone who doesn't even read their abilities.

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He isn't the only one, I didn't notice it either.

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Originally Posted by WeakestZenosEnjoyer

Noxious Gash wasn't exactly good but our replacement they came up with in 4 seconds is substantially worse. One of the core rotational decisions you were always making is ensuring Dreadwinder doesn't overcap Noxious by managing when to Steel Fangs and when to Dread Fangs, that is now removed with literally no replacement and "Vicewinder" can be mindlessly mashed whenever you feel like it since the CD can't even drift. New combo buffs are also overly generous which eliminates interactions with Reawaken. The only justification for having like 8 buttons total was all the interactions between them but now? Now it's just melee Summoner with double weaves.

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They changed the very bones of Viper and that does objectively change the job. "Melee Summoner" is a subjective opinion but the Balance wouldn't be thinking about triple reawaken strings now if nothing changed.

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Originally Posted by Skyclaw726

He isn't the only one, I didn't notice it either.

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If you have not noticed a difference, then one could assume that you have alternated combo starters already, which would mean you have played the job wrong. That is just an assumption, and is not a criticism of you or your playstyle, mind you, just an objective fact to consider.
For people that did play the class right however (making a conscious note of the timer of Noxious Gnash, and deciding how and when to reapply it), they do notice a change in how the class plays, and that should be considered.

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Originally Posted by ovIm

If you have not noticed a difference, then one could assume that you have alternated combo starters already, which would mean you have played the job wrong. That is just an assumption, and is not a criticism of you or your playstyle, mind you, just an objective fact to consider.
For people that did play the class right however (making a conscious note of the timer of Noxious Gnash, and deciding how and when to reapply it), they do notice a change in how the class plays, and that should be considered.

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How does alternating combo starters mean playing the class wrong? I start with Noxious Gnash then go into Swiftscale and repeat until Awaken.

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Originally Posted by Skyclaw726

How does alternating combo starters mean playing the class wrong? I start with Noxious Gnash then go into Swiftscale and repeat until Awaken.

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Dread Fangs, and Dreadwinder, both applied 20s of Noxious Gnash, up to a maximum of 40seconds.
When playing the class right, you never wanted to use either Dread Fangs or Dreadwinder before the Noxious Gnash Debuff was below 20s duration. Doing so would mean playing the class wrong, as you do less damage (Dread Fangs was weaker than Steel Fangs), and also wasting ressources, as any Noxious Gnash generated above 40s would disappear into the void.

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Originally Posted by ovIm

Dread Fangs, and Dreadwinder, both applied 20s of Noxious Gnash, up to a maximum of 40seconds.
When playing the class right, you never wanted to use either Dread Fangs or Dreadwinder before the Noxious Gnash Debuff was below 20s duration. Doing so would mean playing the class wrong, as you do less damage (Dread Fangs was weaker than Steel Fangs), and also wasting ressources, as any Noxious Gnash generated above 40s would disappear into the void.

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That makes sense. I don't class that as playing the class wrong per say as rather not playing the class optimally which is something I have never done. I always do what is more comfortable to me, I have more fun that way.

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Originally Posted by Skyclaw726

That makes sense. I don't class that as playing the class wrong per say as rather not playing the class optimally which is something I have never done. I always do what is more comfortable to me, I have more fun that way.

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While we could argue whether that is simply wrong or unoptimized, I am sure you can see how people that enjoyed tracking the debuff and are now left with no other gameplay to make up for it are sad about it, no?

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Originally Posted by ovIm

While we could argue whether that is simply wrong or unoptimized, I am sure you can see how people that enjoyed tracking the debuff and are now left with no other gameplay to make up for it are sad about it, no?

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I can certainly see why they would be upset though I'd question how they found that enjoyable but I've already shown what I find enjoyable so perhaps I shouldn't question xD

Hey, just making a note in this forum as well.
To give context, I was actively running Viper in both EX Fights prior to Patch 7.05, and I am still presently running Viper in Savage content (M1S cleared, M2S almost cleared as of last night).
The changes made to Viper's kit are substantial, and I feel are a significant negative to the core of Viper's rotation, and I feel this needs to be stated as clear as possible as to why I feel this way.

The job was already very simple within Patch 7.01. Every weaponskill combo was effectively drawn out for you after the first weaponskill combo completed.
The Noxious Gnash debuff provided the job with a time-sensitive decision that needed to be made during the fight, between the rest of the monotony; a mental check that allowed players that actively and consciously choose between which weaponskill combo they wanted to open with.
Dreadwinder/Pit of Dread also applying Noxious Gnash provided additional routes of optimization that allowed VPR players to work on boss fights to minimize Dread Fang usage and maximize potency. It was a delicate dance, but it was a hint of complexity that allowed people who wanted to optimally play VPR to experiment .
Aligning your resources to maintain all of your buffs, Noxious Gnash, and have two Reawakenings within the game's own directed 2-minute window timers felt absolutely fantastic.

The complexity of the job was completely removed when Noxious Gnash was removed. Outside of the singular choice of Steel Fangs / Reaving Fangs when you open a fight, there is absolutely no choice made anymore. There is no reason not to use Vicewinder immediately on cooldown. There is no reason to ever deviate from the glowing buttons available on your hotbar. Outside of holding resources for 2 minute burst windows in harder fights or for pots, or perhaps using Uncoiled Fury stacks during forced downtime (which isn't even a major choice, since you can stock 3), literally every single weaponskill option is made for you.

And before someone brings up Triple Reawakening during pot window as a potential new burst, I don't feel like that is enough of a silver lining for this change.
I understand the necessity of making job classes more accessible, but I genuinely believe that this change goes too far and strips a portion of VPR's identity from it.
I'm open to having more discussions about it, of course. I loved this job when it released, and I want to see it better.

I am disheartened by the change this patch, but I am hopeful that the job can regain a bit of the identity it lost.

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Originally Posted by Skyclaw726

That makes sense. I don't class that as playing the class wrong per say as rather not playing the class optimally which is something I have never done. I always do what is more comfortable to me, I have more fun that way.

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If the people like yourself who were already alternating them without tracking the debuff never noticed the change, then it should be reverted and you can still keep having fun with an unoptimized rotation. You wouldn't even notice it's been reverted back.

I disagree. There wasn't much thinking involved in Viper, but removing NG make any thinking redundant. Usually you'd save a Dreadwinder charge if your NG timer was over 20 seconds to avoid overcapping but now its quite literally just pop it when it's off CD