Dark Kight again, i know there are other post but lets push it

Here are my 2 cents on Dark Kight:

-If this is a shield focus job, shields need to improve, TBN cost is too high and little return or none, Oblation cooldown is too high and no extra benefits compared to other jobs 25sec skills, two charges don't make for the lack of utility.

-MP management is a punishment, not a tax we pay to gain more DPS or mitigation. If it needs to stay for job personality ok, but we need something to gain ( Even Red Mage Res Tax for example is something understandable)

-No real useful ability to sustain, Abyssal Drain takes too long and shares cooldown with Carve and Spit. The same goes for Shadowed Vigil nice HP gain now but the cooldown makes it virtually useless on dungeons. And don't even mention Living Dead, if a tank job needs to use invul ability to recover HP, then something is really wrong.

-MP generation skills are a joke for a job mainly focused on MP management, Even paladin has way more skills to generate MP and honestly the job virtually doesn't need MP, I never run out of MP on Paladin.

-Big DPS skills potencies are underwhelming, Disesteem is the highest potency skill and goes up to 800 but no Crit nor Direct hit.

It starts to feel like YoshiP hates DK. In my opinion, it's the most punished job in every way.

Heck, they even took DRKs original identity of sacrificing HP, and gave it GNB. I dont think they care about DRK honestly. (or tanks at all, as they keep saying, we couldnt do it this expansion, but next time for sure! ever since Storm Blood...)

Why are you comparing oblation to the other tank's 25s CDs? TBN is your 25s CD and it has a shorter CD due to it having an MP cost. TBN having both an MP cost and a cooldown is fine IMO. It makes DRK unique compared to the other tanks and prevents the job from being completely braindead. IMO you should get bonus damage to the free edge/flood of shadows that you get when your TBN breaks though.

"MP management" isn't exactly some fickle art. You just dump edge of shadows into raid buffs and hold 3K for TBN if needed. Spend to avoid overcapping otherwise. You aren't supposed to have infinite MP. It isn't like PLD where you need a constant supply of MP to be able to do your GCD rotation. I don't understand why you're comparing DRK to PLD in this respect.

DRK has comparable sustain to GNB. It's more than enough to keep you up in a dungeon, you just can't solo like WAR can. I'm not sure why you're complaining that your invuln is good? Why do you have it if not to use it? DRK is fine in dungeons.

DRK does need potency buffs. It lost potency via some of the Dawntrail changes and didn't really get anything new to compensate for it. I imagine there will be potency buffs for DRK soon.

dark knight is a budget version of warrior, developers want it that way

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

Why are you comparing oblation to the other tank's 25s CDs? TBN is your 25s CD and it has a shorter CD due to it having an MP cost. TBN having both an MP cost and a cooldown is fine IMO. It makes DRK unique compared to the other tanks and prevents the job from being completely braindead. IMO you should get bonus damage to the free edge/flood of shadows that you get when your TBN breaks though.

"MP management" isn't exactly some fickle art. You just dump edge of shadows into raid buffs and hold 3K for TBN if needed. Spend to avoid overcapping otherwise. You aren't supposed to have infinite MP. It isn't like PLD where you need a constant supply of MP to be able to do your GCD rotation. I don't understand why you're comparing DRK to PLD in this respect.

DRK has comparable sustain to GNB. It's more than enough to keep you up in a dungeon, you just can't solo like WAR can. I'm not sure why you're complaining that your invuln is good? Why do you have it if not to use it? DRK is fine in dungeons.

DRK does need potency buffs. It lost potency via some of the Dawntrail changes and didn't really get anything new to compensate for it. I imagine there will be potency buffs for DRK soon.

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Dark knight problem is in its design..

risk and rewards are dead in this job

TBN proc is not satisfying and it is dumb that you do extra calculation to gain no reward

There is stuff to do without even adding any new animations for real. With all the ones that are already in the current iteration.
Make darkside a ressource to spend on the Scarlet combo, upkept by spending MP. Have some skills like Abyssal Drain cost MP but no give darkside so you can spam it for heal or damage but if you run out of MP you can't restore darkside (which can remain a condition for the use of shadowbringer and other stuff)
Maybe Scarlet combo costs like 15 darkside per attack or something, and you get a free use under a faster GCD under Delirium.


That way stuff starts to interract together. MP fills darkside gauge, blood gauge can fill MP (maybe Bloodspiller gives 1k MP or something) and darkside is for big damage or filling blood gauge (scarlet combo giving 10/15/25 blood per hit or something)

Well, you're now an expansion behind in your dps rotation AND your defensive toolkit.
Aren't you excited for what they're going to remove in the next expansion?

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Originally Posted by Tunda

Dark knight problem is in its design..

risk and rewards are dead in this job

TBN proc is not satisfying and it is dumb that you do extra calculation to gain no reward

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Risk/reward doesn't exist in FFXIV. Damage rotations are rigid and fights are scripted to the millisecond. This is not unique to DRK, it's just how the game is designed.

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

Risk/reward doesn't exist in FFXIV. Damage rotations are rigid and fights are scripted to the millisecond. This is not unique to DRK, it's just how the game is designed.

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Third eye?

All they need to do for Dark right now is increase our MP regen, and yes, give us plunge back in normal gameplay it still exists in pvp. If someone is too stupid to know how to hold it back for fights that need gap closing then let them fail the fight. Also change enhanced unmend to a talent that actually does something maybe? Like anything? Even if all it did was increase unmend potency it would at least matter like 1% unlike the 0% it matters now.

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

Risk/reward doesn't exist in FFXIV. Damage rotations are rigid and fights are scripted to the millisecond. This is not unique to DRK, it's just how the game is designed.

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It does exist in PVP
it is weird then why they are trying to make that in DRK with TBN.. it doesn't make sense

PvP is very different from PvE, there you can designs jobs very differently. You can't have a tank trading HP for damage (they kinda did in the past with Blood Price giving you MP for damage taken, so purposefully getting hit by AoE became an issue) and even for DPS jobs it'd be an issue.

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Originally Posted by Kalaam

PvP is very different from PvE, there you can designs jobs very differently. You can't have a tank trading HP for damage (they kinda did in the past with Blood Price giving you MP for damage taken, so purposefully getting hit by AoE became an issue) and even for DPS jobs it'd be an issue.

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You absolutely can design a tank around HP spending. Getting really tired of this myth because it really shows how shallow some here are with design knowledge.

Fundamentally, just like PvP DRK, a tank with HP spending as a mechanic needs proportional amounts of sustain, either through healing potency or lifesteal. To make HP spending not go completely out of hand, you need to cap it in some way other than just HP (other resources, CD, procs) so you can't just tell your healer to dump everything on you to max your damage, the design goal is self-sufficient HP spending. Here some ideas for sustain:

• Lifesteal buff that on average will give you about 1.3x - 1.5x the HP needed for a spender + some leeway for defensive purposes (short CD, short duration)
• Dreadspikes effect where you gain 1.5x - 2.0x the HP you just took as damage (single hit timed). You gotta mitigate less but get more sustain out of it.
• Stable heal effects, either through resource actions (Blood skills having Cure potency) or timed HP recovery (Sole Survivor) for a burst of HP
• And ofc we can't forget what our dear Living Dead does.

What is important is that the sustain skills do not "just" fuel HP spending, but come with additional sustain for defensive benefit. Now here are some things you could make for HP spending:

• Think TBN, but: drains 20% of max HP, gives you 40% of max HP as shield. Moderate cooldown, only for self (lifesteal synergy)
• Dark Arts, drains 25%, enhances or morphs the next weaponskill/ability to a stronger or different version (maybe multiple stacks? Short CD gate like 15-40s)
• "Dilution", drains 10-15%, expands certain abilities to AOE that could not AOE before at lesser power (defensives too)

Of course, you could explore the avenue of MP and HP having interplay too, namely MP being usable for frequent access to lifesteal (like the short CD I mentioned) and certain HP actions granting MP for example. So you could create three systems:

HP <--> MP
HP <--> Blood
MP <--> Blood

This is just a napkin math and design concept I pulled out of the hat with minimal time investment, but I want to drive home the point that you can absolutely make HP spending a mechanic for tanks WITHOUT making the tank be a liability for having or using them.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

You absolutely can design a tank around HP spending. Getting really tired of this myth because it really shows how shallow some here are with design knowledge.

Fundamentally, just like PvP DRK, a tank with HP spending as a mechanic needs proportional amounts of sustain, either through healing potency or lifesteal. To make HP spending not go completely out of hand, you need to cap it in some way other than just HP (other resources, CD, procs) so you can't just tell your healer to dump everything on you to max your damage, the design goal is self-sufficient HP spending. Here some ideas for sustain:

• Lifesteal buff that on average will give you about 1.3x - 1.5x the HP needed for a spender + some leeway for defensive purposes (short CD, short duration)
• Dreadspikes effect where you gain 1.5x - 2.0x the HP you just took as damage (single hit timed). You gotta mitigate less but get more sustain out of it.
• Stable heal effects, either through resource actions (Blood skills having Cure potency) or timed HP recovery (Sole Survivor) for a burst of HP
• And ofc we can't forget what our dear Living Dead does.

What is important is that the sustain skills do not "just" fuel HP spending, but come with additional sustain for defensive benefit. Now here are some things you could make for HP spending:

• Think TBN, but: drains 20% of max HP, gives you 40% of max HP as shield. Moderate cooldown, only for self (lifesteal synergy)
• Dark Arts, drains 25%, enhances or morphs the next weaponskill/ability to a stronger or different version (maybe multiple stacks? Short CD gate like 15-40s)
• "Dilution", drains 10-15%, expands certain abilities to AOE that could not AOE before at lesser power (defensives too)

Of course, you could explore the avenue of MP and HP having interplay too, namely MP being usable for frequent access to lifesteal (like the short CD I mentioned) and certain HP actions granting MP for example. So you could create three systems:

HP <--> MP
HP <--> Blood
MP <--> Blood

This is just a napkin math and design concept I pulled out of the hat with minimal time investment, but I want to drive home the point that you can absolutely make HP spending a mechanic for tanks WITHOUT making the tank be a liability for having or using them.

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I agree with you,

I have been playing RPG CO-OP games and I understand this can be exist but..

developers can't balance such a system without blowing the game

developers play the safe side so they don't want to anger small portion of players

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Originally Posted by Tunda

I agree with you,

I have been playing RPG CO-OP games and I understand this can be exist but..

developers can't balance such a system without blowing the game

developers play the safe side so they don't want to anger small portion of players

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You are right, but then again we also don't know if they can and they never tried.

I am open for them to try and make genuinely cool designs, even if it needs additional patches to fix certain rough things. But if we/they just stick to what is already known and tried, we will forever be stuck with current job design, which is too much on the side of "safe" and bland.

And I highly encourage players in general to give more than "one single chance or revert instantly" for endorsing it.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

You are right, but then again we also don't know if they can and they never tried.

I am open for them to try and make genuinely cool designs, even if it needs additional patches to fix certain rough things. But if we/they just stick to what is already known and tried, we will forever be stuck with current job design, which is too much on the side of "safe" and bland.

And I highly encourage players in general to give more than "one single chance or revert instantly" for endorsing it.

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there are have good attempt with PvP jobs I hope that they are making a case study and taking feedback to redesign PvE jobs

they started to dumb down jobs in ShB , after the success of ShB I think developers thought that the game success because of job simplicity, but it is obvious that the story is the reason why the expansion was a success.

since then they are keep the job design of shadowbringers the same

and now we got no engaging story no engaging jobs..

I just would like an opportunity to sit down with Yoship, look into his eyes and ask:

"What Dark Knight did to you, Yoshida-san? Why do you hate it so much?"

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

You absolutely can design a tank around HP spending. Getting really tired of this myth because it really shows how shallow some here are with design knowledge

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Finally someone said it. XIV players are so dismissive of any kind of unique idea if it proposes any sort of jank.

No gimmicks and only damage is so lame.

I mean it'd be cool, but it'd likely be a pain to balance so it doesn't end up very squishy as a tank.

You dont need it though. The problem is SE goes against its own philosophy. They want jobs to be easier to play and for everyone. While DRK rotation is very simple, perhaps the simplest out of the tanks. In dungeon content it takes the most skill to play successfully. IN DUNGEON content, the majority of content in the game DRK has to press more buttons to achieve what many of the other tanks can achieve with 1.

We have seen sustain for DRK in pvp. With old skills we lost like soul survivor. The fact that salt and darkness provides a regen in pvp and not pve is a crime. Abyssal drain should be split from Carve and Spit, and cost 3k mana and be tied to the dark arts effect to where when TBN breaks you can get a free edge, flood, or abyssal drain.

There are so many simple ways to fix DRK. But they only have 5 devs who actually work on the jobs so if the job can clear content it really isnt an issue.

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Originally Posted by Derio

You dont need it though. The problem is SE goes against its own philosophy. They want jobs to be easier to play and for everyone. While DRK rotation is very simple, perhaps the simplest out of the tanks. In dungeon content it takes the most skill to play successfully. IN DUNGEON content, the majority of content in the game DRK has to press more buttons to achieve what many of the other tanks can achieve with 1.

We have seen sustain for DRK in pvp. With old skills we lost like soul survivor. The fact that salt and darkness provides a regen in pvp and not pve is a crime. Abyssal drain should be split from Carve and Spit, and cost 3k mana and be tied to the dark arts effect to where when TBN breaks you can get a free edge, flood, or abyssal drain.

There are so many simple ways to fix DRK. But they only have 5 devs who actually work on the jobs so if the job can clear content it really isnt an issue.

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F2P games with no gatcha mechanic can do more than FFXIV in term of RPG elements and balancing..

SE is trying their best to use FFXIV money to start new NFT project no one will care or remember it in 2 weeks

nothing will change and I mean it.. I played since stormblood and the game is the biggest than ever it has been

no one in SE management will care they are cashing and we are doing our best to help devs with identifying the pain points..

it weather management just don't care

or devs are too lazy to do their job..

and I lean more into management don't care because I see square enix do nothing but burning money in failure projects and I can see where this money come from

I've been a DRK player for ages, I don't consider myself a DRK main, but it is definitely my most played job, to the point that I had the Dawntrail version of "Tank You Dark Knight" literally the second I logged in on DT patch day, because I already have the requirements for it well-surpassed.

I definitely don't think the jobs is nearly as bad as you think it is, but I do think a nicer middle-ground could be reached for the job.

That said, I don't understand what you mean by "TBN cost is too high". TBN's cost is dependant on whatever Edge of Shadow's cost is, and while I absolutely utterly despise Edge of Shadow as a mechanic because of how boring it is, the mana cost on Edge is fine. If TBN had a lower cost than Edge of Shadow, DRK would be the most frustrating piece of shit to play because of how obnoxious it can be to break TBN off-cooldown. If TBN was a higher cost than Edge, TBN would be the worst mitigation tool out of every single tank's abilities combined.

I personally think a positive change for the job would be giving DRK a new action that has a comparative damage return to Edge of Shadow, but has a moderately powerful healing effect tacked onto it, and the skill can only be used while under the effect of Dark Arts (which is the resource you get when your TBN breaks) and of course, removing the current effect of Dark Arts, where it gives you a free Edge/Flood cast.
It's not like DRK doesn't have a collection of gorgeous skill animations just sitting in the back log. I'm no developer, but I can't imagine this would be the most difficult thing to implement. Just add a new action, give it the namesake, icon, and animation/VFX of one of DRK's old, removed actions, and give it either the exact same potency of Edge of Shadow if it's implemented as an ability, or something comparative to how much Edge would give you (~600potency?) if it's a skill/spell. Tack on a decent self-healing potency like 600-700, and make Dark Arts a prerequisite for it to be cast.
ALTERNATIVELY, add Sole Survivor back into the game, but replace it's effect with something like "Restores own HP with a potency of 1000" (or whatever value the devs deem balanced), and make it a third option you can use Dark Arts on. So after you pop your TBN, you now have the option to choose between Edge for single target DPS, Flood for AoE DPS, or Sole Survivor where you lose the 460 potency of damage in a trade-off for a hefty self-heal. I know that I basically just designed Dark Knight flavour Clemency, but I think it would be an AMAZING change for the job.

TBN Should have a 30s cooldown and merged with Oblation for a 7s shield and 10s 10% reduction and still give Dark Arts on a broken shield, but have its MP cost removed and have Dark Arts reworked to empower the DRK defensive tools instead. Each time a defensive tool is used with a charge of DA available, it automatically enhances it. You can lock the healing behind a broken TBN and implement other effects behind different defensive tools, the only catch is TBN has to break and you don't have a choice in when DA takes effect; it is always your next defensive.

Bring back Dark Passanger, put it on GCD and make it consume 15s of Darkside time. Put Abyssal Drain back on GCD and make it also consume 15s of Darkside. Obviously, neither ability can be used unless under the effects of Darkside.

That'll probably fix most issues, including the underperforming TBN. One I wish people would stop saying is so great when it really is the worst of the other tanks options. I'm also just BEGGING for interaction with our Darkside gauge. Why do we even have it?

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Originally Posted by Ryaduera

TBN Should have a30s cooldown and merged with Oblation for a 7s shield and 10s 10% reduction and still give Dark Arts on a broken shield, but have its MP cost removed and have Dark Arts reworked to empower the DRK defensive tools instead. Each time a defensive tool is used with a charge of DA available, it automatically enhances it. You can lock the healing behind a broken TBN and implement other effects behind different defensive tools, the only catch is TBN has to break and you don't have a choice in when DA takes effect; it is always your next defensive.

Bring back Dark Passanger, put it on GCD and make it consume 15s of Darkside time. Put Abyssal Drain back on GCD and make it also consume 15s of Darkside. Obviously, neither ability can be used unless under the effects of Darkside.

That'll probably fix most issues, including the underperforming TBN. One I wish people would stop saying is so great when it really is the worst of the other tanks options. I'm also just BEGGING for interaction with our Darkside gauge. Why do we even have it?

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Jesus christ...

You DOUBLED the cooldown of TBN AND merged it with Oblation (removing most of the flexibility from them being split cooldowns and TBN being frequently available, especially when giving to other party members), then you have the gall to remove the MP cost which gives MP a minimum of nuance that keeps us from just emptying the entire MP pool for Edge of Shadow. Furthermore, you replace the MP reimbursement with a "enhances your next defensive tool", like what? I am supposed to work 30s or more in advance to break it (which is made harder thanks to your Oblation merge) so I can get the empowering effect for when it actually matters?

Please tell me you don't know what makes TBN strong without telling me you don't know what makes TBN strong, in fact your suggestion before getting a defensive enhancement (of which you named NONE so its all speculation) all you did was save me a button press of Oblation, which thank you I can do myself - and nerf TBN frequency, which matters MORE in high-end content and can be gamed more extensively there (double TBN on longer dots, double TBN in short time to handle various busters or high damage autos like in DSR). You made the whole package worse in a sorry attempt to powerscale the other CDs (which are 22-25s CD btw).

And you didn't even bother addressing the actual problem child of DRK dungeon mitigation.

https://i.imgur.com/uFKHKyo.png

This action at bare minimum needs to get the Addle treatment, meaning half of the magic reduction is also physical. Alternatively make it 10% magical, 10% generic mitigation (net -1%) or if we feel funny, just make it 20% generic mitigation - the short CD availability is the key strength here. This would solve the "lack" of DRK's dungeon mitigation since the other Extra CDs (Bulwark, Thrill of Battle, Camouflage) work effortlessly in dungeons and would allow for parity while keeping the niche alive.

TBN in it's current form is strong in the same way WAR's Thrill of Battle is strong for big single-hit busters for survival. As much as raw number calculations show that it is lagging behind when taking into account the regen and heals from the other short CDs, that is not what TBN is needed for and the gap can be closed in other ways - what you want to work on is Oblation, of which I suggest either a ~500 cure potency heal on effect expiration (like AST's exaltation) or a 4x 200-250p regen effect.

It is admirable you try to find solutions in AOE gcds for the sake of dungeon mitigation and sustain, but these will do nothing in a raid setting unless the single-target potency is competitive with other actions.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Jesus christ...

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Yes, because TBN is an overrated tool that has been used as a crutch to keep DRK in the dirt for far too long and it was a problem in EW that people didn't mind because it did significantly more damage but TBN has never had the uptime everyone pretends it does and it's time we stop acting like it has any place holding DRK defensives back just because it can be used every 15s in dungeons, when realistically in raid content it will only be used once every minute due to the MP nerfs and how it effects your DPS to need to use it twice. Its uptime rate is now significantly lower than it was before and its usecase is even smaller since you want to make sure you only use 1.

TBN has been bad for years but the MP changes make it's cooldown even less significant and giving Dark Mind the Addle treatment will not even begin to compensate for the objectively lower Mitigation numbers even based on magic damage because of how bad Oblation and TBN are designed to be. There is no reason for two bad skills to exist when they can merge and become one decent skill together.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

Third eye?

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What? Third eye is a mit. What does that have to do with risk/reward?

You know damage is coming. You press third eye. Where is the risk?

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Originally Posted by Ryaduera

Yes, because TBN is an overrated tool that has been used as a crutch to keep DRK in the dirt for far too long and it was a problem in EW that people didn't mind because it did significantly more damage but TBN has never had the uptime everyone pretends it does and it's time we stop acting like it has any place holding DRK defensives back just because it can be used every 15s in dungeons, when realistically in raid content it will only be used once every minute due to the MP nerfs and how it effects your DPS to need to use it twice. Its uptime rate is now significantly lower than it was before and its usecase is even smaller since you want to make sure you only use 1.

TBN has been bad for years but the MP changes make it's cooldown even less significant and giving Dark Mind the Addle treatment will not even begin to compensate for the objectively lower Mitigation numbers even based on magic damage because of how bad Oblation and TBN are designed to be. There is no reason for two bad skills to exist when they can merge and become one decent skill together.

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Again, your suggestion and borderline personal vendetta with these skills is that they are too weak therefore they need to be merged/reworked, but your suggestion to merge them is hot garbage and solves nothing about the mitigation budget. The HP shield is completely unchanged and now it is less flexible to be used, with a CD higher than Holy Sheltron / Bloodwhetting / Heart of Corundum for no good reason. It is a net nerf, both in practice and in potential. You can personally space out Oblation in 30s intervals and have that go three times if you space it out that way - and can choose to not pair it with TBN because you don't need to all the time and can toss it to a teammate (either of them). Your whole TBN suggestion is complete and utter whack and you have yet to provide what enhancements would even be available if you broke it. I can use these skills together on my own without this shitty merge, at my own discretion.

And at that point, just introduce Dark Arts as an actual action for mitigation enhancement and don't do this roundabout delayed mitigation enhancement if you need mitigation NOW AND NOT LATER.

The MP changes are bad in general and isn't an issue for TBN alone, but even with that in mind you can STILL spend 6000 MP on TBN in a short time frame if you pool it that way, making the cooldown not irrelevant. A good example for that recently is Mountain Fire from EX1, allowing you to shield both the first and the third hit for your turn. In Abyssos you could double TBN the dot busters to cover a fair bit of damage without heals. Your suggestion would just make this objectively worse from a mitigation standpoint.

I gave three potential suggestions for Dark Mind, of which you only addressed the bare minimum one, I could even give you a fourth one - readding Dark Dance which is basically just a physical copy of Dark Mind and shares a CD. The goal with that change was to provide additional mitigation in predominantly physical damage environments which is most dungeons and a fair share of raid fights (P11S if we discount the invulned Dike busters, P10S Harrowing Hell, DSR Heavenly Heel + Ascalon's Might, etc.).

I also suggested changes to Oblation in favour of sustain, which you completely ignored. You also mention "how it affects our DPS to need to use it twice", like do you have actual numbers for this? What would the total DPS loss amount to if you'd favour TBN breaks rather than pooling 5 EoS in raid buff windows?

Mind you, I have played DRK throughout the raid tiers since Stormblood 4.3 onward - and not once have I thought that my mitigation was weak, at most I had wished Dark Mind could be at least half-usable on physical damage. I have done many savage tiers when relevant and I do not shy from Ultimates, many allowing me to make use of the 15s CD quite handsomely.

I could almost forgive it if TBN was made so utterly bland like you suggested and interacted in zero ways with our damage (MP), if you'd at least up the numbers of the mitigation you so decry being inferior to other tanks, because double the CD for the HP shield (5s over other tank short CDs) and barely a gain in Oblation uptime (if used on cooldown) is not it chief.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Again, your suggestion and borderline personal vendetta with these skills is that they are too weak therefore they need to be merged/reworked, but your suggestion to merge them is hot garbage and solves nothing about the mitigation budget. The HP shield is completely unchanged and now it is less flexible to be used, with a CD higher than Holy Sheltron / Bloodwhetting / Heart of Corundum for no good reason. It is a net nerf, both in practice and in potential. You can personally space out Oblation in 30s intervals and have that go three times if you space it out that way - and can choose to not pair it with TBN because you don't need to all the time and can toss it to a teammate (either of them). Your whole TBN suggestion is complete and utter whack and you have yet to provide what enhancements would even be available if you broke it. I can use these skills together on my own without this shitty merge, at my own discretion.

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Firstly, I am not a developer, the best I've done is make some mods for some obscure games as a hobby and balance some things, but design is not what I do. This is a suggestion for design philosophy of feeding defensives into eachother which is better than a DPS loss if TBN doesn't break which is why TBN has the potential to be a DPS loss, I didn't think I'd have to spill random player-minded numbers and effects out as if I were the actual developer for the discussion of a concept that. You don't need th write all of that to say "I think this style of mechanic would be a benefit". Secondly, this hostility towards a suggestion from a fellow player is weird, it's okay to disagree, but settle down a little. And thirdly, in a thread actually about reworking defensives...

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Originally Posted by Ryaduera

EDIT2: Okay my brain juices got flowing at the thought and I can't help myself, here's my pitch to rework DRK defensives.

Merge TBN and Oblation into one skill, 25% max health shield for 7 seconds and 10% damage reduction for 10 seconds on a 25 second cooldown. It costs 10 seconds off your Darkside timer (that's 2.4 TNBs in a 1 minute window, you'll consume 20-30s Darkside time a minute depending on timing). When the shield breaks, you gain Dark Arts. If the shield does not break, heal for 30% of the remaining shield value.

Dark Arts empowers your next defensive ability automatically. If used with Dark Mind you gain a 100% Parry Rate for 10 seconds as well as the 20% magic damage reduction.

If you use Shadowed Vigil with Dark Arts you give yourself an effect for 15 seconds that bursts in an area around you upon expiration and lowers all hit targets damage by 10% for 10 seconds.

If you have Dark Arts and use Dark Passenger (Missionary) you give yourself and your party a shield with a potency equivalent to 500 heal potency that can only absorb magical damage.

If you have Dark Arts and use TBN once again you gain an additional 5% max HP shielding

Give Dark Knight an all new skill, maybe keep the name of Oblation idk, but you can only activate it while Dark Arts is available. This skill heals you for a 300 potency with a 1s cooldown, but of course, you only have 1 charge of Dark Arts at a time so it's effectively a 25s cooldown.

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Yeah I used different numbers, but all of it is pretty fluid in my head since I'm just a player not a dev and there's really any number of enhancements that could be provided as well as small gameplay changes. I also believe that 2 charges makes up for the 5 additional seconds as well, this is basically how PLD works, though PLD can recharge in 21ish seconds, but should you need to step away it slows the recharge of it. As Are you really using TBN every 15 seconds?

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And at that point, just introduce Dark Arts as an actual action for mitigation enhancement and don't do this roundabout delayed mitigation enhancement if you need mitigation NOW AND NOT LATER.

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The way it works is basically your first TBN is a bit weaker, which is pretty easy to proc and if you don't proc it you didn't need to in the first place, the first TBN in dungeons is always the easiest to break, the first TBN in raids is always easy to find an opportunity for, especially for raidwide damage.

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The MP changes are bad in general and isn't an issue for TBN alone, but even with that in mind you can STILL spend 6000 MP on TBN in a short time frame if you pool it that way, making the cooldown not irrelevant. A good example for that recently is Mountain Fire from EX1, allowing you to shield both the first and the third hit for your turn. In Abyssos you could double TBN the dot busters to cover a fair bit of damage without heals. Your suggestion would just make this objectively worse from a mitigation standpoint.

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You want every bit of MP damage usage to fit within a burst window, this includes Dark Arts, to maximize your DPS. If you are using TBN twice outside tour MP capping and your burst windows you have sacrificed some DPS which will vary by party, a crit or two aided by Battle Litany can add up in longer fights with tighter DPS checks, like early savage clears. THis is min-maxing but it's something a lot of players consider. It could also be addressed by adding multiple charges of DA as well, an easier fix that fits current design just fine. Is it a large discrepancy? No, but the discrepancy shouldn't exist since it comes from a defensive tool, not an offensive tool.

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I gave three potential suggestions for Dark Mind, of which you only addressed the bare minimum one, I could even give you a fourth one - readding Dark Dance which is basically just a physical copy of Dark Mind and shares a CD. The goal with that change was to provide additional mitigation in predominantly physical damage environments which is most dungeons and a fair share of raid fights (P11S if we discount the invulned Dike busters, P10S Harrowing Hell, DSR Heavenly Heel + Ascalon's Might, etc.).

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Because I'm not a developer, you are not my enemy, and the other ideas are fine. But I'm not going to look at a bad idea and pretend its good when DRK, even vs magic damage, still takes the most damage and we pretend it's okay because TBN exists even though it's directly holding the job back. Everything else is fine, didn't feel a need to comment, that's all.

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I also suggested changes to Oblation in favour of sustain, which you completely ignored. You also mention "how it affects our DPS to need to use it twice", like do you have actual numbers for this? What would the total DPS loss amount to if you'd favour TBN breaks rather than pooling 5 EoS in raid buff windows?

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I ignored this because there was no comment to make. It was a fine idea. Thumbs up. Didn't think that needed pointing out. Strange hostility here, but you do you. I've also suggested a HoT on Oblation before.

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Mind you, I have played DRK throughout the raid tiers since Stormblood 4.3 onward - and not once have I thought that my mitigation was weak, at most I had wished Dark Mind could be at least half-usable on physical damage. I have done many savage tiers when relevant and I do not shy from Ultimates, many allowing me to make use of the 15s CD quite handsomely.

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Weird flex but okay, let's play the "I played longer so I know more" game. Because that never gets old and is valid under all circumstances. Playtime means nothing for design knowledge and that goes for both of us.

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Originally Posted by Ryaduera

That's awfully presumptions of you to say. Let's put it this way. I still have PTSD from Gordias Savage, so I don't want to hear "any content I've seen thus far". The server tick counting... Oh the horror... And Thordans eyes. Oh lord his eyes, no please god...

[EDIT] if you got that by looking at this characters job levels, this was a new character made to play with some friends on a different data center and is not indicative of my actual experience with this game, but I use this one because it is the one I will now exclusively use.

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I could almost forgive it if TBN was made so utterly bland like you suggested and interacted in zero ways with our damage (MP), if you'd at least up the numbers of the mitigation you so decry being inferior to other tanks, because double the CD for the HP shield (5s over other tank short CDs) and barely a gain in Oblation uptime (if used on cooldown) is not it chief.

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Flat damage reduction is king and amping up the Oblation uptime allows more room for it to be stacked (RIP Diminishing returns, but still) and increase the likelihood that you always have something available, which DRK pretty much just runs out of stuff.

EDIT: If we only double Oblations uptime in a 2 minute window and ignore all other potential changes it goes from (30x10)/120 for 2.5% damage reduction to 30s cooldown and 2 charges for 3 in the first 30 seconds then 2 mote (third falls on 2m mark being outside the 120 second limit) it becomes (50x10)\120 for 4.6% which brings it between GNB and PLD in mitigation, but also it spreads the damage that does happen over a longer period being easier to deal with overall. That's why percentage mitigations are king, it also spreads damage out over a longer period of time allowing more room for recovery as well. This is why GNB feels tankier than DRK even though DRK is technically taking less damage due to TBN. Of course this isn't enough, same goes for 10% physical reduction on Dark Mind, but the uptime is key.

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

Why are you comparing oblation to the other tank's 25s CDs? TBN is your 25s CD and it has a shorter CD due to it having an MP cost. TBN having both an MP cost and a cooldown is fine IMO. It makes DRK unique compared to the other tanks and prevents the job from being completely braindead. IMO you should get bonus damage to the free edge/flood of shadows that you get when your TBN breaks though.

"MP management" isn't exactly some fickle art. You just dump edge of shadows into raid buffs and hold 3K for TBN if needed. Spend to avoid overcapping otherwise. You aren't supposed to have infinite MP. It isn't like PLD where you need a constant supply of MP to be able to do your GCD rotation. I don't understand why you're comparing DRK to PLD in this respect.

DRK has comparable sustain to GNB. It's more than enough to keep you up in a dungeon, you just can't solo like WAR can. I'm not sure why you're complaining that your invuln is good? Why do you have it if not to use it? DRK is fine in dungeons.

DRK does need potency buffs. It lost potency via some of the Dawntrail changes and didn't really get anything new to compensate for it. I imagine there will be potency buffs for DRK soon.

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Agreed with all except that it has comparable sustain to GNB. DRK still has the lowest sustain of all tanks, which is fine IMO, though it just needs to increase potency.
Also the changes to living dead make it easier but kind of useless, I don't think I died once from living dead in DW, makes healers almost useless in this regard, at last in EW it had some punch to it, that 10s countdown was real, now it's just fluff.

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

What? Third eye is a mit. What does that have to do with risk/reward?

You know damage is coming. You press third eye. Where is the risk?

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There's a lot of mechanics you can dipp into with third eye for a small Kenki gain. Including tankbusters and spreads.
Often followed by a raidwide that will kill you if you're not topped off. Hence, creating a risk of dying, and a reward for taking the risk anyways.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

they never tried.

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They did in 1.23 when they made DRG a DRK. (Its why they were so scared to try again, since they botched it)

But in all seriousness, they also had the perfect set up for implementation back in 3.0 when DRKs MP was being constantly drained. All they had to do was make MP drain before HP, and at smaller amounts. Once out of MP, it takes HP, and is less potent (to limit DRKs to only trying to burst at the last 1% of a boss, or the end of another tight DPS check)
(I also agree to putting short CDs on HP spending skills)

The idea of HP being drained if out of mana is funny, could be fun though grief could be an issue.
Would it disable heals like darkside disabled mp regens effects ?

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Originally Posted by Kalaam

The idea of HP being drained if out of mana is funny, could be fun though grief could be an issue.
Would it disable heals like darkside disabled mp regens effects ?

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Not sure why it would. The idea yoship had was that DRKs had to sacrifice something, so instead of HP, they scarified MP. (Which is what all casters do..?)
Preventing MP regeneration was and would still be enough. But instead of preventing heals, everyone has a 2% natural regen on their HP during combat, that could also be turned off as well, if youd be looking for that.
But the way I see it, (numbers can be adjusted) if you have enough MP, it drains the MP. If you have some MP, it drains the remaining, and then cuts into HP a bit, and has a reduced efficiency. Once youre MP is 0, dark side is turned off, and you cant use it again in succession. (Idealy turning on dark side should put a few seconds lock on turning it back on a second time (like 30s?) this way if they use it at low MP, they lose 5%hp, turn it on, use it again, lose another 5%hp, and then are locked out of it.
I forget how quick/slow DRKs can build up MP from 3.0, so it has to be built on the idea its faster to build up MP, than it is to consume hp and go w/o darkside for 30seconds.

This would in turn make it more akin to the old 2.0 move (forget what its called) that you used at the very end of the fight.
Alternatively, the dmg loss if spamming it w/o darkside up wouldnt be worth it unless ur at the end of the fight.
Alternatively #2 if darkside drains 1%hp instead of MP once out, id still make the dps loss need to be great enough that its more efficient by a tiny amount to manage MP over HP.

Also another idea of "instead of MP", id have TBN take 5%HP for a 25%hp shield. If not that, then a max HP buff like what WAR had, and be required to "consume it" as a shield. (something along the lines of max HP+10% for nearly 30seconds, recast 45seconds. if this is up, it is consumed instead of HP for TBN.) And of course super bolide shoulda been DRKs invuln.
WAR shoulda got something akin to living dead, where they need healed to full, otherwise they go berserk (instead of dying)
PLD is fine, Holmgang also seems fine for GNB)

Thinking they could remove the MP coast of TBN, and when it breaks it turns into Abyssal Drain. And then TBN unlocks at level 56 -- the level at which Abyssal Drain in unlocked, and upgrade to Oblation at level 70.

Personally I think just removing a cd from abyssal drain and giving it a cast time again would be a good way to fix the drk sustain issue without it being op. Make it like a 3-4 cast so you have to factor in that you'll take ticks of damage while using it.

Honestly I'm fine with TBN it rewards you by refunding damage you could of spent that MP on. That's the reason it uses MP, if they got rid of the MP usage they'd have to remove the break reward then it just becomes a shitty Divine Benison.