New Tank Skills

Just a post for discussion (and speculation) of the skills shown in the benchmark.

PLD

Frontal cone AoE? Given the animation it looks like a Requiescat upgrade.

https://i.ibb.co/NttgWVc/FINAL-FANTA...-Trailer-6.gif

WAR

Similar to intervention or just another shield? It seems to trigger as it is hit.

https://i.ibb.co/Fq7GLJ4/FINAL-FANTA...Trailer-18.gif

DRK

Big swing attack.

https://i.ibb.co/vkCBG4Y/FINAL-FANTA...Trailer-14.gif

GBN

Floor explosion.

https://i.ibb.co/NSHJkRC/FINAL-FANTA...rk-Trailer.gif

Placing bets on DRKs new swing being a Primal Rend equivalent, seeing as it has Bloodspiller effects

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mecia

Placing bets on DRKs new swing being a Primal Rend equivalent, seeing as it has Bloodspiller effects

---

I was instead betting on that being just TBN on WAR, except far better of course.

Paladin is 100% AoE req.

Warrior seems to be an upgrade to vengeance.

Gunbreaker is a continuation on fated circle, you can see the gnb use FC as the camera is moving.

Dark knight there's no telling. You can see the DRK use a lot of new animations so it could be it's getting a visual upgrade to its 1-2-3 combo, it could be a new combo, it could be an upgrade to edge or flood or shadowbringer. There's no telling there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SargeTheSeagull

Dark knight there's no telling. You can see the DRK use a lot of new animations so it could be it's getting a visual upgrade to its 1-2-3 combo, it could be a new combo, it could be an upgrade to edge or flood or shadowbringer. There's no telling there.

---

You can see the DRK use Hard Slash, Syphon Strike and Souleater in the benchmark, so if it is replacing them, it isn't a permanent replacement.

On a separate note, The clearly Vengeance upgrade poses another question, will the equivalent on other tanks also get an upgrade?

Dark Knight also uses bloodspiller.
It wouldn't surpirse me if its just a new GCD you can only press while under Delirium or Blodweapon, its the safest least committal thing they could do for Dark Knight.

That said, Dark Knight has multiple new animations shown here, so hopefully its more interesting than just another boring 2m finisher

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oizen

Dark Knight also uses bloodspiller.
It wouldn't surpirse me if its just a new GCD you can only press while under Delirium or Blodweapon, its the safest least committal thing they could do for Dark Knight.

That said, Dark Knight has multiple new animations shown here, so hopefully its more interesting than just another boring 2m finisher

---

Ah good catch. I don't think it's just a new GCD you can only press during buffs. You can see the DRK follow up with another new attack when the camera pans to the SCH. Perhaps DRK is getting another combo at long last?

It's the first time there's genuinely nothing for Warrior left to take from Dark knight or Gunbreaker, so i have no clue what Warrior will get.
Gnb might see a Double down follow up.
I'm guessing they merged paladin's abilties with that spin?
Dark knight probably gets an enhanced 123 or bloodspiller.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

Dark knight probably gets an enhanced 123 or bloodspiller.

---

DRK uses bloodspiller earlier in the benchmark so its probably not that

PLD - looks like a req upgrade

WAR - looks like a vengeance upgrade that allows them to protect a party member.

GNB - looks like a continuation for Fated Circle

DRK - looks like a new GCD combo (and a damn cool one at that). It looks like it could potentially by 3 GCD's long (4 if counting Bloodspiller) I have a couple guesses on this.

1) Delirium functions as basically DRK requiescat and we get the entire combo (3 to 4 part combo) on our Bloodspiller ability

2) Using Bloodspiller upgrades our 1-2-3

I do hope we have more mechanical changes on DRK in Dawntrail but we won't know that until the liveletter on may 16th (or the media tour...depending on how much they want to keep under wraps)

If anything I just hope they're more ok with GNB DRK existing as the big damage tanks and WAR/PLD existing as the big support tanks.

I'm excited to see what DRK GCDs could be like.

Now if only they could also update DrK's run animations.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oizen

If anything I just hope they're more ok with GNB DRK existing as the big damage tanks and WAR/PLD existing as the big support tanks.

I'm excited to see what DRK GCDs could be like.

---

I'm excited for the new GCD's too, but i'm also worried.
At the start of EW, we got Shadowbringer - which made Drk and Gnb the dps tanks.
But in the end, Drk just kinda became the worst at everything tanks do because they didn't want to tax the other tanks for their utility and sustain anymore.
Is it going to be a dps increase, or will it simply be yet another extra step to accomplish less than what the others do?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

I'm excited for the new GCD's too, but i'm also worried.
At the start of EW, we got Shadowbringer - which made Drk and Gnb the dps tanks.
But in the end, Drk just kinda became the worst at everything tanks do because they didn't want to tax the other tanks for their utility and sustain anymore.
Is it going to be a dps increase, or will it simply be yet another extra step to accomplish less than what the others do?

---

Its a fair concern, and I'm hoping that WAR's new Passage of Arms/Cover esque skill cements the design of WAR and PLD being Big support tanks with GNB and DRK being big damage tanks. They seem to be moving away from heavy damage checks as of anabaseios so I hope that design returns.

If this means the parse meta is locked into DRK/GNB parties, so what? Parsers hate fun anyway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oizen

Parsers hate fun anyway.

---

Truer words have never been said.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

Is it going to be a dps increase, or will it simply be yet another extra step to accomplish less than what the others do?

---

While balance certainly plays a role, my primary concern is how all tanks currently play, not how good their DPS is. Warrior got buffed the entire expansion, but more potency can't fix the fact that it's about as interesting to play as watching paint dry.

I'll gladly take some lower DPS if it means I'm not falling asleep at the keyboard.

I bet that WAR got Cover 2.0 with an additional effect passing Vengance reflect

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rawker

I bet that WAR got Cover 2.0 with an additional effect passing Vengance reflect

---

That would be kinda hilarious, the physical-damage-only reflect is already pretty mediocre on a tank but probably the most useless effect on a non-tank.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Absurdity

That would be kinda hilarious, the physical-damage-only reflect is already pretty mediocre on a tank but probably the most useless effect on a non-tank.

---

Dont worry.. they will design bosses to do more physical tank busters and physical raid wides to compensate since this will infuriate the spoiled children and will ask for buffs

DRK is probaly just a finisher after the 3 bloodspillers during delirium.

WAR is probably upgraded Bloodwhetting/NF

PLD is upgraded Req with it doing X damage to the first enemy and % based to the ones after.

GNB is probably upgrade of the existing AOEs or upgraded double down.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mikey_R

On a separate note, The clearly Vengeance upgrade poses another question, will the equivalent on other tanks also get an upgrade?

---

Is it too hopeful to think this upgrade would differentiate them?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Moqi

Is it too hopeful to think this upgrade would differentiate them?

---

Differentiation is kinda odd to describe a job that borrows abilities from other tanks, make them overpowered versions with no downsides other it doesn't have 100% uptime, and claim their own and the rest just cry and ask to be on parity with them. And when the dev does, they will cry again and get over-buffed. The cycle continues.

If they are actually revising the 120s cooldowns, then perhaps they should actually use the opportunity to rectify the arbitrary advantage that Vengeance has over all the other 120 second recast defensives.

While I'd hope that the DRK actions could represent a new combo, I wonder if one of them could be just the merger of Abyssal Drain and C+S.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oizen

Its a fair concern, and I'm hoping that WAR's new Passage of Arms/Cover esque skill cements the design of WAR and PLD being Big support tanks with GNB and DRK being big damage tanks.

---

This is very optimistic. You're locked into utility and defensive advantages for the expansion. In practice, that means that WARs will greedily gobble up those utility advantages that they know you'll never get revised mid-expansion. You'll then see those same players turn around and complain en masse that the 50 rDPS advantage that you got from the deal is locking them out of week 1 parties on fights that they are unable to clear without Echo anyways. You'll then end up with both less damage and less utility by the first or second tier, just like in every other expansion we've seen to date.

The only role where 'utility vs. damage' ever holds true is on Casters, and that's because it's the producer's home turf.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyth

If they are actually revising the 120s cooldowns, then perhaps they should actually use the opportunity to rectify the arbitrary advantage that Vengeance has over all the other 120 second recast defensives.

While I'd hope that the DRK actions could represent a new combo, I wonder if one of them could be just the merger of Abyssal Drain and C+S.

This is very optimistic. You're locked into utility and defensive advantages for the expansion. In practice, that means that WARs will greedily gobble up those utility advantages that they know you'll never get revised mid-expansion. You'll then see those same players turn around and complain en masse that the 50 rDPS advantage that you got from the deal is locking them out of week 1 parties on fights that they are unable to clear without Echo anyways. You'll then end up with both less damage and less utility by the first or second tier, just like in every other expansion we've seen to date.

The only role where 'utility vs. damage' ever holds true is on Casters, and that's because it's the producer's home turf.

---

That's pretty much what i'm expecting, yeah.
Not to mention them perfectly lining up tank mechanics for Holmgang and only putting mechanics into the fights to disavantage the already disadvantaged tanks.
And buffing Warrior because a streamer had his ego hurt over a 100 dps difference.
Going as far as to say ''Warrior is dead'' over the 100 dps difference.
But yeah, if we see a repeat i'll just quit tanking unceremoniously like i quit healing.
As it stands now there already isn't really a reason to have the 3 other tanks besides not wanting to carry an axe.

https://youtu.be/FFK6jDpHDak

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyth

If they are actually revising the 120s cooldowns, then perhaps they should actually use the opportunity to rectify the arbitrary advantage that Vengeance has over all the other 120 second recast defensives.

While I'd hope that the DRK actions could represent a new combo, I wonder if one of them could be just the merger of Abyssal Drain and C+S.

This is very optimistic. You're locked into utility and defensive advantages for the expansion. In practice, that means that WARs will greedily gobble up those utility advantages that they know you'll never get revised mid-expansion. You'll then see those same players turn around and complain en masse that the 50 rDPS advantage that you got from the deal is locking them out of week 1 parties on fights that they are unable to clear without Echo anyways. You'll then end up with both less damage and less utility by the first or second tier, just like in every other expansion we've seen to date.

The only role where 'utility vs. damage' ever holds true is on Casters, and that's because it's the producer's home turf.

---

Imagine if we just ignored the feedback of balding streamers with questionable interests.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oizen

Imagine if we just ignored the feedback of balding streamers with questionable interests.

---

Can't have that, because WARRIOR is supposed to be the chosen one. WARRIOR is supposed to be the savior. WARRIOR is supposed to carry the group and save the day!

Oh the other tanks? Yeah they can clear. The game's great! - Streamer who does not buy hair products, probably.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rawker

Differentiation is kinda odd to describe a job that borrows abilities from other tanks, make them overpowered versions with no downsides other it doesn't have 100% uptime, and claim their own and the rest just cry and ask to be on parity with them. And when the dev does, they will cry again and get over-buffed. The cycle continues.

---

I meant every other tank's 30% mit gets a different effect when upgraded.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

It's the first time there's genuinely nothing for Warrior left to take from Dark knight or Gunbreaker, so i have no clue what Warrior will get.
Gnb might see a Double down follow up.
I'm guessing they merged paladin's abilties with that spin?
Dark knight probably gets an enhanced 123 or bloodspiller.

---

It's gonna be a second invul that's the exact same as PLD's but shorter they will keep holmgang obviously because warrior is weak, they're also going to get old stormblood cover with the 20% built in mitigation (100% serious!)

I actually wouldn't be surprised if warrior just got more then every other tank again though for real lol.

Oh yeah before i forget they will get passage of rocks, it's a 20% AOE mitigation that you don't have to hold in a cone like PLD.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Moqi

I meant every other tank's 30% mit gets a different effect when upgraded.

---

Vengance is already like that ever since. It is the only 30% mitigation with an additional effect. Sentinel/Shadow Wall/Nebula are just 30% mitigation. Nothing else. Sentinel used to be 40% but since it was deemed better than the 30% from Vengance, it was nerfed to 30% (trait removed) yet the damage reflect from Vengance is still intact, to this day.

I'm not expecting much from the 30% mit upgrade, I think its pretty likely that they'll all still more or less do what they do now, just either slightly more or with a lowercooldown, with WAR retaining its dev favorite trait on it because of course.

I'd love for them to be more individualized as stated before, but that sort of design is expecting a lot from this game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rawker

Vengance is already like that ever since. It is the only 30% mitigation with an additional effect. Sentinel/Shadow Wall/Nebula are just 30% mitigation. Nothing else. Sentinel used to be 40% but since it was deemed better than the 30% from Vengance, it was nerfed to 30% (trait removed) yet the damage reflect from Vengance is still intact, to this day.

---

I know? That's why I said what I said.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oizen

I'm not expecting much from the 30% mit upgrade, I think its pretty likely that they'll all still more or less do what they do now, just either slightly more or with a lowercooldown, with WAR retaining its dev favorite trait on it because of course.

I'd love for them to be more individualized as stated before, but that sort of design is expecting a lot from this game.

---

What I'd kind of like if "30%" got Upgrades, all could target another player.
DRK - 30% With a 5% Shield that Reapplies the Shield against once broken (3-5 Stacks?)
PLD - 30% With a Big Shield such as 15%
War - 40% With the built in attack on Hit.
GNB - 30% With a slight shorter CD. (Likely the most strongest, so this could be changed, DM having 60s generally makes it super strong in magic situations).

Although i think they should Remove rampart in general it's really boring, Adding strength to DM, Bulwark, Thrill, Camo ect also. I do think tanks base defensiveness (zero mitigation) should be lowered a bit too, so cycling or timing your strong mitigations becomes important even in basic content.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oizen

If anything I just hope they're more ok with GNB DRK existing as the big damage tanks and WAR/PLD existing as the big support tanks.

I'm excited to see what DRK GCDs could be like.

---

The issue is that they all need to be good at both things.
DPS is king, so unless "dps tank" means doing less than 1% more, then you end up having a meta which isn't good. Unless you prefer "bring the job not the player".

Different rotation style and complexity are fine, but in the end, they all need to bring equivalent things to the table.

I hope DRK gets "The black night at lower level, something like -10% absorb but cost 0 mp (and grants nothing when it breaks) to help a bit at lower level.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

I'm excited for the new GCD's too, but i'm also worried.
At the start of EW, we got Shadowbringer - which made Drk and Gnb the dps tanks.
But in the end, Drk just kinda became the worst at everything tanks do because they didn't want to tax the other tanks for their utility and sustain anymore.
Is it going to be a dps increase, or will it simply be yet another extra step to accomplish less than what the others do?

---

Shadowbringer is so boring... like if drk ever needed more 1-2min dmg ogcd with 0 interactions.
Anyone's expecting yet-another rework?

The dev team are so inconsistent in their balancing that it's hard to see what the underlying balance principle is. WAR is mechanically one of the simplest jobs in the game, yet also offers high survivability and relatively high damage within its role category. That sounds like the very definition of 'bring the job not the player', but yet we don't seem to be doing anything about it.

I don't really see why there's a mitigation upgrade every single expansion. Yoshi-p mentioned during a recent Famitsu interview that he regretted making the game too stress free, with the example being having pits to fall into when playing a platformer game. Forget pitfalls. If this was a platformer, the current iteration of self-healing tanks with a vast array of free mitigation tools would be practically levitating.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sylvain

The issue is that they all need to be good at both things.
DPS is king, so unless "dps tank" means doing less than 1% more, then you end up having a meta which isn't good. Unless you prefer "bring the job not the player".

Different rotation style and complexity are fine, but in the end, they all need to bring equivalent things to the table.

I hope DRK gets "The black night at lower level, something like -10% absorb but cost 0 mp (and grants nothing when it breaks) to help a bit at lower level.



Shadowbringer is so boring... like if drk ever needed more 1-2min dmg ogcd with 0 interactions.
Anyone's expecting yet-another rework?

---

I still think Dark knight is infinitely more engaging than Warrior.
Notice how much damage they put into Warrior's 123 compared to Dark knight, just to make it do the same (Usually even more) damage.
The one OGCD Warrior has does nearly the same damage as Carve and spit on half the cooldown.
This is because there were barely any damage buttons to begin with. It doesn't have any ''interactions'' That Dark knight doesn't.
Neither do the other 2. The only one that you could argue is more engaging is GnB because of gnashing fang.
''Turns fell cleave into super fell cleave and gives you one super duper fell cleave'' is the only thing Warrior does besides 123 fell cleave.

I find Dark knight the most fun to optimise tank in the role.

But besides that, Warrior is a support oriented job.
It needs to have it's dps taxed for all it's support.
Red mage has lower dps than a black mage for a reason, let's apply the same common sense to Warrior.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sylvain

The issue is that they all need to be good at both things.
DPS is king, so unless "dps tank" means doing less than 1% more, then you end up having a meta which isn't good. Unless you prefer "bring the job not the player".

Different rotation style and complexity are fine, but in the end, they all need to bring equivalent things to the table.

---

Well heres my issue with that, if Dark Knight is investing so hard into various different attacks each expansion, to the point where its losing out on utility and mitigations, and WAR is specing more in the otherside, why is it fair that by the end of the expansion they've thrown so much free potency into the same attacks WAR has been using since lv 50 to make them equal? its not like DRK has tools to heal other players more efficiently than actual healers, or the strongest raidwide mit by a mile.

Its not like they balance at all in the other direction, with this philosophy Abyssal drain should have a 12s CD and a 600 cure potency per hit and dark missionary should work on all damage types with and have a direct heal as well. It just seems to me this game is balance almost exclusively for max level week 1 savage clear damage specifically, and everything else is irrelevant. It just seems like WAR gets to bring the best of everything while anyone who isn't WAR is meant to have the bare minimum

Its very difficult to find a niche in tanking right now that isn't summarized by "WAR does it the best"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oizen

Well heres my issue with that, if Dark Knight is investing so hard into various different attacks each expansion, to the point where its losing out on utility and mitigations, and WAR is specing more in the otherside, why is it fair that by the end of the expansion they've thrown so much free potency into the same attacks WAR has been using since lv 50 to make them equal? its not like DRK has tools to heal other players more efficiently than actual healers, or the strongest raidwide mit by a mile.

Its not like they balance at all in the other direction, with this philosophy Abyssal drain should have a 12s CD and a 600 cure potency per hit and dark missionary should work on all damage types with and have a direct heal as well. It just seems to me this game is balance almost exclusively for max level week 1 savage clear damage specifically, and everything else is irrelevant. It just seems like WAR gets to bring the best of everything while anyone who isn't WAR is meant to have the bare minimum

Its very difficult to find a niche in tanking right now that isn't summarized by "WAR does it the best"

---

Warrior was actually top DPS in week 1.
So i don't think they balance for week 1 anymore, they just give in to streamer driven demand.
I think they're looking to balance for speed kills, which are a super niche and tiny portion of the community.
Seeing as said streamers like to use speedkills as their point of reference.
The result is that everyone who's not playing in hyper optimised speedkill groups should basically default into Warrior because it does everything better.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rithy255

It's gonna be a second invul that's the exact same as PLD's but shorter they will keep holmgang obviously because warrior is weak, they're also going to get old stormblood cover with the 20% built in mitigation (100% serious!)

I actually wouldn't be surprised if warrior just got more then every other tank again though for real lol.

Oh yeah before i forget they will get passage of rocks, it's a 20% AOE mitigation that you don't have to hold in a cone like PLD.

---

Your next attack can hit allies and gives them a shield equal to twice the damage you deal to them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sylvain

Shadowbringer is so boring... like if drk ever needed more 1-2min dmg ogcd with 0 interactions.
Anyone's expecting yet-another rework?

---

I'd love another DRK rework. Since ShB it's been warrior that facerolls on burst. As you said with shadowbringer, none of the ogcds have any interactions. They could remove darkside as a whole and it wouldn't make a difference at the moment. I'd love if the job had some actual identity like it had in SB (not saying they should revert it, but rather learn from it.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Naomishtola

I'd love another DRK rework. Since ShB it's been warrior that facerolls on burst. As you said with shadowbringer, none of the ogcds have any interactions. They could remove darkside as a whole and it wouldn't make a difference at the moment. I'd love if the job had some actual identity like it had in SB (not saying they should revert it, but rather learn from it.)

---

Where exactly is all this interaction on the other tanks?
Warrior pressing a button so that Fell cleave turns into Super fell cleave?
Pressing Inner release for 3 fell cleaves and a super duper fell cleave?
And pressing 123 for a minute after?

Paladin pressing ''not inner release'' to then spam ''Not fell cleave''?

Get real.
Any sort of identity they gave to Dark knight got cannibalised and streamlined because of angry Warrior players.