Are you happy with role actions? If not, how would you rework them?

I personally would like to use interrupt and esuna more in raids. I obviously don't want whole mechanics to be solved by them (like what Coils did), but I want to feel like they're an important addition to my kit, like knockback invul. I think state effects should be particularly usefull in dungeon pulls, like an additional mit. For example, imagine if p.dps's heavy was aoe and affected attack speed instead (but still only worked for mobs, not bosses).

For phys ranged, I would get rid of Foot Graze, and replace it with either reworked Palisade (10% party mit, 90 sec CD) or a reworked Hawk's Eye (guarantees the next weaponskill is a crit), and then add a second charge of Leg Graze. If phys ranged got Palisade as a role action than Troubadour, Tactician, and Shield Samba could become unique utilities.

Not in the least. I would revert us to Cross Class skills.

In ways, I think the functionality that exists under the Role Actions umbrella is a bit arbitrary. If every tank is going to have a 1-2-3 combo, if every healer is going to have Cure and Raise analogues, then Role Actions feel less like a place for functionality that's universal to a role — since there's plenty of functionality universal to roles that aren't Role Actions — and more like a place for functionality that is universal to a role and isn't going to try to skin itself to the class that's using it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

more like a place for functionality that is universal to a role and isn't going to try to skin itself to the class that's using it

---

This. Rampart looks like a PLD skill. Reprisal looks like a DRK skill. Esuna looks like a WHM skill. Repose uses an icon with a CNJ/WHM cane. Feint makes me think PGL/MNK. Etc. Etc.

I'd take all such "role actions", make them exclusive to their original class and job (yes, yes, I'm actually wrong on Feint, ignore that), and if necessary, add appropriately themed versions back to the rest of the classes and jobs in the role.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

This. Rampart looks like a PLD skill. Reprisal looks like a DRK skill. Esuna looks like a WHM skill. Repose uses an icon with a CNJ/WHM cane. Feint makes me think PGL/MNK. Etc. Etc.

I'd take all such "role actions", make them exclusive to their original class and job (yes, yes, I'm actually wrong on Feint, ignore that), and if necessary, add appropriately themed versions back to the rest of the classes and jobs in the role.

---

Idk, i don't think I would ever get rid of Swiftcast for any caster or healer, or Provoke for any tank, I think there are role actions that are absolutelly necessary. I just think they need more depth.

It’s so strange that we have role actions that are specifically just actions ripped off one class and made universal even if they don’t fit (esuna being a water skill for example when SCH is a wind aspected class or rampart straight up using a “putting a shield up” like animation) but then there is two specific examples of skills that do the same thing but have unique animations; namely the 5 rezzes and the 3 phys ranged 90 second mitigations (I would count the tanks 30% but WAR’s is actually slightly unique)

I’m much more a fan of functionally deleting role actions outside of very core actions that the role absolutely cannot function without (which basically amounts to provoke and shirk) and returning all other actions to the classes to fill gaps in levelling caused by old skills being deleted and to give more variety

For example all 4 healers don’t need exactly the same lucid dreaming, AST doesn’t need it at all considering how astrodyne works, SCH could get mana off of eos and embrace casts and SGE could get something else, all 4 having the same button you press at the same time to achieve the same effect with the same animation is boring

Role Actions solved a problem, which everyone said was a problem in Heavensward, that tanks didn't automatically have Provoke (RIP tank swap mechs), that everyone didn't have Second Wind or Swiftcast without leveling other classes.

Additionally, the cross-class system was not updated and a lot of the abilities felt useless because they weren't buffed by traits or scaled off stats the other job didn't have.

But after Role Actions had been around for a bit, some clear problems became apparent:

• The 20% mit (Rampart) is a role action, but the 30% mit is not.
• Esuna is a role action, but resurrection is not.
• Stuns are a big part of class identity, regardless of how little they are used. Doing a low blow as a Paladin seems... wrong. Surely it should not be a role action, so that Shield Bash can be the ability stun for Paladin.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vandso

I personally would like to use interrupt

---

Although rarely used in raid content, it was very common to see interruptable casts in Shadowbringers dungeons (on trash) and the challenge was to identify the interruptable enemy out of the 100 you pulled and interrupt it in time, to reduce the burden on the healer. They were also on many of the Shadowbringers hunts. We also saw them initially in Endwalker, including in Ktisis. I was glad to see them again in the latest Alliance Raid.

Quote:

---

and esuna more in raids.

---

I don't know, I guess this wouldn't bother me and the reason is that when I heal things, I usually don't Esuna most things because either it's on too many players and is a waste of time when I could just do a raid-wide heal instead, or it'll expire quickly anyway. The exceptions are if it affects DPS such as Paralysis, Blind, Damage Down or Doom.

If you could Esuna a DoT that affects 8 people then healers probably wouldn't bother but if it was Paralaysis they might.

Quote:

---

I want to feel like they're an important addition to my kit, like knockback invul.

---

KB immunity is useful and makes some mechanics easier but I should make it clear that there is a way to do mechanics without it, but players are often unaware of this due to KB immunity being the pug strat.

I'd make it so they all draw from the Blu spellbook for access to a small number [selection of 2-4 would be fair I reckon] of actions to supplement jobs [extra DoTs, extra damage spells, personal buffs, party buffs, mana regen and gapclosers] and also add in more utility options for things like stuns, slows, interrupts [I too would like to see more emphasis on these types of mechanics and I also really like the idea of slows affecting enemy autoattacks.]

I'll never like them because they deleted the DRK and WAR 20% mit equivalent animations for the sake of giving them what looks like a pld skill.

Low Blow and Reprisal also feel out of place on anything that isn't Dark Knight.

Foresight was never 20% mit but they could have just made it that instead of making it SOULLESS.
Bring back shadow shadowskin, leeches, etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Not in the least. I would revert us to Cross Class skills.

---

This a 100%.

I don't care what turbo-casuals think. This is a game that promotes being every job in 1 character... It really was never the end of the world to level a job to sub 50 to learn actions you could equip on another job. And that was back when leveling from 1 to 60 took much longer than it does now.
If anything it gave more gratification for leveling other classes. Only reason most people level other jobs now is to flex they leveled other jobs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

It’s so strange that we have role actions that are specifically just actions ripped off one class and made universal even if they don’t fit (esuna being a water skill for example when SCH is a wind aspected class or rampart straight up using a “putting a shield up” like animation) but then there is two specific examples of skills that do the same thing but have unique animations; namely the 5 rezzes and the 3 phys ranged 90 second mitigations (I would count the tanks 30% but WAR’s is actually slightly unique)

I’m much more a fan of functionally deleting role actions outside of very core actions that the role absolutely cannot function without (which basically amounts to provoke and shirk) and returning all other actions to the classes to fill gaps in levelling caused by old skills being deleted and to give more variety

For example all 4 healers don’t need exactly the same lucid dreaming, AST doesn’t need it at all considering how astrodyne works, SCH could get mana off of eos and embrace casts and SGE could get something else, all 4 having the same button you press at the same time to achieve the same effect with the same animation is boring

---

Essentially this

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

I'd take all such "role actions", make them exclusive to their original class and job[...], and if necessary, add appropriately themed versions back to the rest of the classes and jobs in the role.

---

I like this idea.

I can see how it might be confusing to very new players if role actions were instead a unique 'themed' version for each class/job that had it, but as has been said, that already exists to an extent with stuff like Raise spells, Tank stances, the phys ranged AOE mitigations...

Skills feeling like they fit the job they're on is nice.



In terms of gameplay functionality, I don't have any particularly strong feelings. I started in Shadowbringers, so I have no personal experience to pull from in regards to how the past versions worked and felt in comparison (Stormblood's choices, ARR/HW's cross-class skills). The current version really just feels like certain skills that aren't unique by job, unlike other skills available to every member of a role that are unique per job.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Not in the least. I would revert us to Cross Class skills.

---

I thought these were very reasonable. Sure, people complained about getting to level 34 or whatever for swiftcast - but we are talking about a game designed for one character to play every job. The bar to get to 34 was very low back then and it is even lower now. Cross class also made you branch out to other jobs without a huge commitment. Getting to level 22 LNC for Invigorate was no big deal. Bloodbath was level 8. Second Wind was 8. Internal Release (crit up) was 12.

Sure, many of them were junk like Physik since it used MND so you'd never use it. Or Skull Sunder. Plenty were trash. However, they could have reworked the current system. The one we have now is fairly lazy.

The main issues with the old Cross-Class system were that the 'scavenger hunt checklist' for essential actions were distributed entirely across older jobs, and several of the choices were downright bizarre, like being able to bring across GLD/MRD's Savage Blade and Skull Sunder over to classes that could not utilize them as combo actions in the first place. The former is the reason why some jobs, like DRK, were hit significantly harder by the transition to the Role Action system in Stormblood.

That's not to say that the Role Action system isn't without issues either. I don't really understand the design philosophy around why Rampart was specifically designed as an Role Action when you have Sentinel/Shadow Wall/Nebula with identical wording to each other. Likewise, I don't see why Reprisal was a Role Action when you also have Dark Missionary/Heart of Light with identical wording to each other in the same category. It feels like the dev team themselves are unsure of what the point of this system is, outside of occasionally saving on having to create new animations for the same action across several jobs.

Perhaps the solution is to just introduce slight variations on a theme, and allowing players to unlock new animations and modifiers on a Role Action when they start up a new job. For example, perhaps Rampart is the base action, but unlocking it on DRK lets you use the Shadowskin animation and alter the properties to trade off recast vs. duration or flat DR vs. % DR. I think if it's not specifically designed to allow for player choice and fight-specific optimization, then you're better off just scrapping the system and just duplicating the actions across every job so that we can at least have unique animations for these actions.

The biggest annoyance I have with role actions is definitely flavour wise if they aren’t actually going to make the actions unique

Why am I; a SCH; the only explicitly wind based class in the game using a water skill to cleanse people of debuffs, especially since leeches already exists and is functionally just wind coloured esuna anyway (same as exalted detriment)

While it’s not a massive problem one way or the other if they are going to have identical function skills that overwrite each other (like the ranged mitigation) I’d rather they have their unique animations back to at least maintain the class fantasy a little bit better

I am not very happy with 'role actions' for several reasons:

1: They do what need to be done for that role, eg Rampart, but we have the same thing on other jobs where they have unique names and animations (Vengeance/Shadow Wall/Sentinel/Nebula). We could have had Shadowskin and Foresight for WAR/DRK instead of Rampart, and a new 20% for GNB, to preserve job flavour. We also have Raise/Resurrection/Ascend/Eggnog, all four work completely identically, but aren't a standardized role action, yet Esuna is (and cost us Leeches/Exalted Detriment)

2: Half of them for each role do not actually 'need' to be used anymore, for 95%+ of content. Little-nothing in the game requires Interject, Low Blow stun, Repose, Foot/Head/Leg Graze, or Sleep. It's effectively 'Deep Dungeon tools'.

3: Half of them are created from something a specific job had before, but made available to all in the role without a replacement. In fact, when SB originally launched, out of the 10 available Role Action choices, at least 5 (Esuna, Protect, Lucid, Largesse, Cleric) were already in the WHM kit and 'given back' via this 'choice', Eye for an Eye taken from SCH, Swiftcast from BLM. Effectively only 3 of the 10 options were actual new skills, Break (filling in for the Heavy removed from healers because of Stone1/Stella/Miasma's bonus effect being removed), Rescue (so unresponsive it's barely worth using), and Surecast (actually wasn't this one a BLM skill too?)

I once made a thread about how I'd make a raid fight which made a lot of use of these actions, a very long time ago. Never went anywhere, but it shows that I've thought Role Actions are a wasted opportunity for several months already

They could probably just rename Esuna to like Purify or something if it's that much of a problem. It would also better communicate to players that it's the button to use to remove bad from other players.

It’s job flavour, esuna was specifically designed as a water action because it was designed for WHM, the other three healers aren’t water based healers (though to be fair I have no idea what element SGE is supposed to be aspected to) so using a water VFX feels rather out of place, it’s not the name esuna it’s the actual action itself

Leeches already exists so I don’t know why they thought to remove it, it would just be the same as saying “use your 30%” you would just say “use your purify equivalent”

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

It’s job flavour, esuna was specifically designed as a water action because it was designed for WHM, the other three healers aren’t water based healers (though to be fair I have no idea what element SGE is supposed to be aspected to) so using a water VFX feels rather out of place, it’s not the name esuna it’s the actual action itself

Leeches already exists so I don’t know why they thought to remove it, it would just be the same as saying “use your 30%” you would just say “use your purify equivalent”

---

Fair. However I suspect there might be janky some under the hood reasons why role actions exist, and we can't just have flavorful version of them.

IIRC SCH, and SGE both use arcane magics, but their differing approaches lead to the development of different spells. So technically not really aspected to anything, more so just 'pure magic.'

There shouldn’t be any restriction considering both leeches and exalted detriment used to exist in the same form as the tanks current 30% the only difference was unlock level

SCH I know is explicitly a wind class, there is dialogue in eden that confirms it, but honestly SGE makes no sense anyway

I guess a kinda thematic justification for the existence of role actions is that that they are generic common sense skills that any adventurer should know depending on the fighting style they've chosen.

Selectable Role Actions... But reworked!!
I'm going to post from a Tank players perspective but this applies to other roles as well.

Anyway what I'd like is for role actions to be selectable, The Idea for this would be that some are longer, shorter, strong or are more effective in different situations. But the selection would instead be Select 1 of 3 similar actions (instead of selecting something like 5 out of 10, where the abilities are completely different)

Example. (Rampart and variants) [1 of 3 can be chosen out the following]
Rampart - 20% Mitigation, Duration 15s CD: 90s [Standard always useful baseline]
Convalescence - 10% Mitigation, AE: Increases healing on you by 20% Duration 20s CD: 90s [Weaker at surviving burst damage, Good In AOE, has synergy with Scholars]
Awareness - 10% Mitigation Duration 25s CD: 60S [Weakest mitigation, On the shortest CD, Lasts longest]

What would happen to Required Actions Such as Provoke? or arms length? It's pretty simple, they would become Normal Actions Mainly just flavoured, Effects like slow on arms length *could* change depending on Job ect. (Or not).

I also want to quickly mention Phys ranged as foot graze and other skills are pretty useless, I would like to imagine that phys ranged would get more utility based role actions as they are listed as "providing support to allies" in the job guide.

I would like to see a mixture of role actions and cross class. All tanks get their 30% mit buttons at lv.38, but warrior just randomly has a straight up superior version than the other tanks. If you have warrior leveled, let the other tanks you play also have access to Vengeance. Same for their Endwalker mit buttons. Unlock their unique mit buttons for all other tanks once they reach the appropriate level. Warrior having access to TBN doesn't change much, other than having a better tank buster button. However, bloodwhetting on Dark Knight would absolutely fix their dungeon issues of having very little self sustain.

It would reward some versatility options for playing additional jobs and also bridge the gaps in the leveling process where some jobs feel like straight downgrades to each other. Why would I ever willingly choose to run a dungeon on DRK and have to pressure my healer when I could do it on WAR and sustain myself while also speeding up the run? This solution fixes that problem without stepping on any toes and universally makes all the tanks feel better to play since you could mix and match their mit buttons (all on a shared recast obviously).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

SCH I know is explicitly a wind class, there is dialogue in eden that confirms it

---

I was wondering where you were drawing this theory from. There is a SCH-specific dialogue line in 'Into the Firestorm' (Lv.80) where you are offered an explanation on how the weather works that you can pre-empt as SCH. It's a reference to the fact that the Nymians were excellent sailors in general and Scholars were an essential part of the Nymian Marines, so they were naturally knowledgeable about the weather. The discussion on the wind directly ties into the explanation of how water vapour gives rise to clouds and comes up in all three dialogue options, so you shouldn't take that to mean that Scholars are specifically 'wind mages'. mallleable is correct, and you might also have noticed that 'Shadow Flare' wasn't a particularly 'wind-aspected' spell back in the day either.

Bloodwhetting should be deleted, not disseminated to the other three tanks giving every tank a pick of the bunch of all tank mitigation just further invalidates the entire healer role, tanks are already far too strong

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyth

I was wondering where you were drawing this theory from. There is a SCH-specific dialogue line in 'Into the Firestorm' (Lv.80) where you are offered an explanation on how the weather works that you can pre-empt as SCH. It's a reference to the fact that the Nymians were excellent sailors in general and scholars were an essential part of the Nymian Marines, so they were naturally knowledgeable about the weather. The discussion on the wind directly ties into the explanation of how water vapour gives rise to clouds and comes up in all three dialogue options, so you shouldn't take that to mean that Scholars are specifically 'wind mages'. mallleable is correct, and you might also have noticed that 'Shadow Flare' isn't a particularly 'wind-aspected' spell either.

---

It’s also the lore of the nymeians and their skills, the patron diety of nymia was oschon, SCH’s old skill descriptions were far more wind based than they are now (succor used to mention healing wind if I remember correctly) same as leeches and now expedient

They aren’t “wind mages” per say but their aspectation leans more heavily to wind than any other class given the nymian society it originates from

I think it's a bit difficult to draw a direct correlation, as it's all vague at best. If anything, the signature 'Aero' was White Magic.

If anything, I would have expected 'Leeches' to have been more water-aspected, given that the healing practice that the spell is named after was originally derived from utilizing marine creatures. Airborne Leeches would be somewhat worrying.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brixy

[...]This solution fixes that problem without stepping on any toes and universally makes all the tanks feel better to play since you could mix and match their mit buttons (all on a shared recast obviously).

---

???

Bloodwhetting already steps on every green dps' toes in a way that no other job can do, not even any green dps can do either lol.

Role actions to me are just like an antiquated relic in today's design of this game. I see the following issues:

1) A big chunk of those actions are useless in harder content, and even in the content they are actually usable, stuff dies too fast for them to even be remotely relevant

2) Uninspiring actions like Lucid Dream or Rampart, which could be so much more if they were unique mechanics to their jobs

Honestly, the only really 'needed' Role actions are the KB immunities*, Esuna and Provoke. The rest, I could see done with and corresponding effects baked in the job's personal utility kits so we get at least some distinction in that front, since Role Actions aren't really tied to damage performance.

* Even that one is questionable, because if a KB immunity is always up when a KB puzzle happens, what's even the point of the mechanic?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brixy

I would like to see a mixture of role actions and cross class. All tanks get their 30% mit buttons at lv.38, but warrior just randomly has a straight up superior version than the other tanks. If you have warrior leveled, let the other tanks you play also have access to Vengeance. Same for their Endwalker mit buttons. Unlock their unique mit buttons for all other tanks once they reach the appropriate level. Warrior having access to TBN doesn't change much, other than having a better tank buster button. However, bloodwhetting on Dark Knight would absolutely fix their dungeon issues of having very little self sustain.

It would reward some versatility options for playing additional jobs and also bridge the gaps in the leveling process where some jobs feel like straight downgrades to each other. Why would I ever willingly choose to run a dungeon on DRK and have to pressure my healer when I could do it on WAR and sustain myself while also speeding up the run? This solution fixes that problem without stepping on any toes and universally makes all the tanks feel better to play since you could mix and match their mit buttons (all on a shared recast obviously).

---

Putting TBN on jobs that can't regen Mana wouldn't work. As you'd use it 3 times in a fight, get a dark arts stack you could never use, and then its basically gone for 45+ seconds.

And I think this would just homogenize tanks furthers as currently Nascent Flash completely shits on TBN and HoC in terms of power. There would be no reason to bring anything else.

They should be cross class skills so that we got options in what we use for our secondaries. Right now all jobs have primaries (related to their dps), secondaries (related to mitigation, shielding, or healing), and tertiaries (Related to movement inhibition, crowd control, spell interrupt, etc). We should be able to set those skills based on what we got leveled, but they flatlined everything instead so we got a barebones experience. The system they have works but it is absolutely boring.

The other problem is they got no use for the tertiary skills anymore in the later game. There is such a thing as letting a game be a game, rather than a linear contest. No one is going to care if a boss can get stun locked, spell locked, etc, and such events could help with other issues the game has.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raikai

Role actions to me are just like an antiquated relic in today's design of this game. I see the following issues:

1) A big chunk of those actions are useless in harder content, and even in the content they are actually usable, stuff dies too fast for them to even be remotely relevant

2) Uninspiring actions like Lucid Dream or Rampart, which could be so much more if they were unique mechanics to their jobs

Honestly, the only really 'needed' Role actions are the KB immunities*, Esuna and Provoke. The rest, I could see done with and corresponding effects baked in the job's personal utility kits so we get at least some distinction in that front, since Role Actions aren't really tied to damage performance.

* Even that one is questionable, because if a KB immunity is always up when a KB puzzle happens, what's even the point of the mechanic?

---

What’s annoying is that you can do some mechanics without KB immunity when the game obviously intends you to use it (bramble phase in E9 and junction shiva in E12 come to mind) but then the game provides you no alternative options to use it that could make a different phase easier

You either just press them to make the mechanic easier or don’t press them to gain zero benefit

My RDM got Sleep as a role action at the start of Endwalker, I cast it a total of one (1) time in the entirety of the expansion.
It was during Eureka Orthos to sleep an incoming patrolling enemy, the enemy was immune to sleep (of course), so they just aggro'd immediately which almost ended my run somewhere around floor 70-90, at that point I just took it off my bar.

Much rather would have gotten something useful from BLM like Manaward.

At least Sleep is an aoe, it's useful in Eureka, Bozja, guildhests, and occasionally dungeons if/when the tank dies..... meanwhile, it's been literal years since I last used Repose.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bole

I am not aware of any mechanic that is designed to require KB immunity, but there are strats that don’t work without it. (I might be wrong about that)

---

DSR has some.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

It’s job flavour, esuna was specifically designed as a water action because it was designed for WHM, the other three healers aren’t water based healers (though to be fair I have no idea what element SGE is supposed to be aspected to) so using a water VFX feels rather out of place, it’s not the name esuna it’s the actual action itself

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyth

If anything, I would have expected 'Leeches' to have been more water-aspected, given that the healing practice that the spell is named after was originally derived from utilizing marine creatures. Airborne Leeches would be somewhat worrying.

---

Got curious about this and tried to find a video that showed Leeches being cast.

Found this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuRGYfecVxQ

The color on the Leeches cast seems to be blue rather than green, which from what I've seen of what people say, indicates that Leeches was Water and not Wind anyway.

I think they're fine. The only thing I would do is make them all have the same number of abilities. Right now, some have six, while other's only have 5.

Role Actions are in an okay spot I think. I was talking to someone before about the possibility of maybe post level 100 we could instead of making jobs make specs for each job we got.

So you could be like a Dark Knight DPS spec where some of your abilities change to be more dps orientated and you share the melee dps role actions.

It will be really funny to see how people can't figure out how to use esuna and interject. just like how some people can't figure out how to press addle and feint on raid wide.