Please remove MSQ dungeons from Mentor roulette

Green Leafs do not need my help watching cutscenes, but other Green Leafs do need my help with actual other content. I'm happy to coach seven of you through any extreme trial, but not cutscenes.

I'm pretty sure they don't need your help in Sastasha either, so let's just remove these early dungeons too while we are it.

Imo they should have watering can mentors who have an easy mentor roulette (all content required by msq), and then the current icon with bias (not pure exclusion) to harder content (which also will reward 2 points to achievement, when it's specifically one of the harder content).

As someone who's completed about 2500 mentor roulettes; it comes off a lot more as a back fill as opposed to "find someone that needs guidance". Most of the time in mentor roulette you need not say anything specific and only serve the purpose of getting the queue to pop for the person who is trying to do whatever quest took them there. The three big MSQ's being on the mentor roulette as well as having their own roulette do need that extra assistance for getting the sprouts passed that part of the story in my opinion. I would be in favor with making the reward for doing those instances tied to the instance itself as opposed to once a day on the MSQ roulette though.

I did most of my mentor stuff on the Crystal DC though so maybe it's different for the OP.

You could say this about 90% of the content they put you in via that roulette.

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Originally Posted by Xirean

As someone who's completed about 2500 mentor roulettes; it comes off a lot more as a back fill as opposed to "find someone that needs guidance".

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^This.

What you choose to queue as for mentor roulette on can have an impact on what you get as well.

I personally found that queueing as a tank/healer tended to get me put into 'mundane' things like MSQ roulettes more frequently, so I started to queue as a DPS with 'join in progress' enabled instead. That seemed to make it it much more common for me to be queued into 'obscure' 8+ player duties, namely EX trials which I genuinely enjoyed doing.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

You could say this about 90% of the content they put you in via that roulette.

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That's fine. Just take out the two MSQ cutscene ones. We already have MSQ roulette for those players.

Some of my favorite memories is coaching a bunch of Green Leafs through ARR extreme trials in Mentor roulette, and they love the game far more afterwards once they "get" how slightly harder content and mechanics work. There's also been several dungeons I'm Mentoring with a bunch of Green Leafs and I'm the only one saving them from wipes with my Raises, heals, good damage or tanking.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

^This.

What you choose to queue as for mentor roulette on can have an impact on what you get as well.

I personally found that queueing as a tank/healer tended to get me put into 'mundane' things like MSQ roulettes more frequently, so I started to queue as a DPS with 'join in progress' enabled instead. That seemed to make it it much more common for me to be queued into 'obscure' 8+ player duties, namely EX trials which I genuinely enjoyed doing.

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I find that rather interesting. When I qued as DPS with those settings I'd get pulled into a lot of alliance, dungeons, trials, and guildhests. The only EX I'd routinely get pulled into was Rathalos. Queing as Tank or Healer mostly got me dungeons and EX with little variance. We are on the same world too. Did you do most of your queing at a certain time/patch?

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Originally Posted by Xirean

I find that rather interesting. When I qued as DPS with those settings I'd get pulled into a lot of alliance, dungeons, trials, and guildhests. The only EX I'd routinely get pulled into was Rathalos. Queing as Tank or Healer mostly got me dungeons and EX with little variance. We are on the same world too. Did you do most of your queing at a certain time/patch?

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I exclusively queued for them on Aether, back around 6.2-6.3 probably?

It's probably the Datacenter difference, Aether tends to have a lot more content-focused players in comparison to Crystal, at least that was my original rationale for queueing there.

At the end of the day it's all speculation and voodoo though, it could've just been purely cosmic chance that my experience was like that haha.

Give me as many Extreme Trials as possible. I am all about that life. Although I take whatever comes up no matter how annoying it is. Get it into ya.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

Green Leafs do not need my help watching cutscenes, but other Green Leafs do need my help with actual other content. I'm happy to coach seven of you through any extreme trial, but not cutscenes.

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They do need warm bodies to fill out the party, which is one of the things Mentor Roulette provides for the duties.

So sprouts has to wait even longer to continue their MSQ ( stuck in long queue).

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

They do need warm bodies to fill out the party, which is one of the things Mentor Roulette provides for the duties.

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Sure, let it apply to every other duty than these two because they're also the only two duties with forced long cutscenes. They got plenty of other warm bodies from MSQ roulette players.

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Originally Posted by Zeastria

So sprouts has to wait even longer to continue their MSQ ( stuck in long queue).

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MSQ roulette isn't all that long and making them wait longer when people leave after joining is even worse.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

MSQ roulette isn't all that long and making them wait longer when people leave after joining is even worse.

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Actually, unless like half the group suddenly up and leaves, you can easily do the MSQ roulettes down 1 or 2 people. Getting the queue to pop and being able to start is far quicker than waiting longer for it to pop in the first place. You'll be progressing the instance and going through the story cutscenes while it re-fills.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

Sure, let it apply to every other duty than these two because they're also the only two duties with forced long cutscenes. They got plenty of other warm bodies from MSQ roulette players.

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They have long cutscenes. They also have large tomestone rewards to compensate for that.
If you can't stand having to watch the cutscenes again, then don't run Mentor roulette. Most of the reason for Mentor roulette even existing is simply to fill out with warm bodies where needed.

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

They have long cutscenes. They also have large tomestone rewards to compensate for that.
If you can't stand having to watch the cutscenes again, then don't run Mentor roulette. Most of the reason for Mentor roulette even existing is simply to fill out with warm bodies where needed.

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You don't get large tomestones for doing MSQ dungeons in Mentor Roulette, and I do it to help people who need my help. Saying they specifically need Mentors for "warm bodies" to do that is asinine and wrong. I'm willing to do any other content in the game than MSQ dungeons in Mentor roulette. It would be the right and correct thing to do to remove them from Mentor Roulette.

I do not do Mentor Roulette for rewards. I do it to help players who actually need my help. No, they do not need my "warm body" to pop their MSQ dungeon queue.

If you aren't willing to help with every singular duty, don't do Mentor Roulette and while you're at it, remove your Burger King crown.

Quite bold of you to decide who needs your help and who does not. You just don't like these three duties and try to spin it into a "they don't need my help" excuse when your help is already not needed for the majority of content.

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I do not do Mentor Roulette for rewards.

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If this was true, you wouldn't have made this thread.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

You don't get large tomestones for doing MSQ dungeons in Mentor Roulette, and I do it to help people who need my help. Saying they specifically need Mentors for "warm bodies" to do that is asinine and wrong. I'm willing to do any other content in the game than MSQ dungeons in Mentor roulette. It would be the right and correct thing to do to remove them from Mentor Roulette.

I do not do Mentor Roulette for rewards. I do it to help players who actually need my help. No, they do not need my "warm body" to pop their MSQ dungeon queue.

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Needing help is heavily subjective. You may not consider being available for the queue to pop to be helping but I can assure you that it is. Some early dungeons can take a good while for a pop and it's one of the main reasons duty support is getting so much attention.

I'm not a fan of everything on the mentor roulette either and still think EX shouldn't be on it, but the three MSQ pops do actually need that help. It's the first capstone a sprout gets access to and any longer wait then necessary only hurts the impact for a new player. SE knows that the content was designed strange and has done what they can to mitigate it, but it's very unlikely to go away any time soon.

I do think the instance itself should have more rewards tied to it though; I'd say the same for EX if they must be on the roulette.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Imo they should have watering can mentors who have an easy mentor roulette (all content required by msq), and then the current icon with bias (not pure exclusion) to harder content (which also will reward 2 points to achievement, when it's specifically one of the harder content).

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I'd rather see the mentor system move away from the roulette and instead give mentors a list of parties that are struggling or need players and let mentors choose who they can help most effectively. In my opinion no reward is needed except knowing that you helped someone else.

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Originally Posted by Sove92

Quite bold of you to decide who needs your help and who does not. You just don't like these three duties and try to spin it into a "they don't need my help" excuse when your help is already not needed for the majority of content.

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Basic common sense says Green Leafs don't need my help watching cutscenes in two very easy instances that got even easier. Basic common sense says plenty of people regularly run MSQ Roulette every single day so they will rarely, if ever, need to wait long for them to pop. Please, have basic common sense or refrain from posting until you do.

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Originally Posted by Sove92

If this was true, you wouldn't have made this thread.

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I made this thread because I love helping people. That's why I became a Mentor and why I run Mentor Roulettes even after completing the daily sometimes. I already have more Gil than I'll ever spend, I cap on Tomes extremely quick, and there's plenty of better options to get 30 other Tomes if that was what I wanted. I'm not particularly interested in any of the Mentor Achievement rewards, I'm already 1024 duties into it. Because I love helping people, Mentor Roulette with basic common sense should only give us duties that aren't the two MSQ dungeons. Some people are scared and want to learn how to do their first Guildhest before tackling a Dungeon. Some people want to experience Extreme Trials synced and/or know the Party Finder will just tell them to unsync it. Whatever it is, I love helping them. The MSQ dungeons already have MSQ Roulette for helpers and I can't help new players watch cutscenes. It wastes my time and the time of those I could actually be helping instead.

The fact I need to explain this to you is an embarrassment.

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Originally Posted by Xirean

Needing help is heavily subjective. You may not consider being available for the queue to pop to be helping but I can assure you that it is. Some early dungeons can take a good while for a pop and it's one of the main reasons duty support is getting so much attention.

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No one's talking about early dungeons, this is only applying to Castrum Meridianum and Praetorium. I love helping Green Leafs through any other dungeon as needed, and they certainly don't take a "good while" to pop thanks to MSQ Roulette.

The real main purpose of that roulette never had been to help or anything, but to be the 'universal' queue filler for anyone doing something first time, to make sure wait isn't too long. That's just how it is.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

No one's talking about early dungeons, this is only applying to Castrum Meridianum and Praetorium. I love helping Green Leafs through any other dungeon as needed, and they certainly don't take a "good while" to pop thanks to MSQ Roulette.

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Those dungeons within the MSQ roulette are early dungeons. It's ARR; everything within it is early content at this point of the games lifespan.

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Please, have basic common sense or refrain from posting until you do.

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The fact I need to explain this to you is an embarrassment.

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However, based on these comments it's pretty clear that you are not here to have an honest healthy discussion.

If you love helping people then help by filling stuff that needs done. That's your job as mentor. It always has been. I'm not sure where you got this mentality that you actively need to be helping people with mechanics. All you need to do is show up and do your job. If you feel your time is being wasted by helping people then you're not really as selfless as you think.

Help comes in many forms. If you plan on sticking with mentor roulette then get used to Main Scenario. There's plenty more to come. Be thankful it's no longer the 40 minute version.

If you really want to help people and not care about the reward, then just open duty finder and look for any instance with a number that isn't 0 and queue for it. You can even pick what instance you help people with.

That being said, looking at your attitude on these forums I don't think I'd even want you in my party as a mentor. Terrible attitude to have.

Agreed. MSQ roulette is there for people who are willing to deal with unskippable cutscenes; I would assume that's the whole reason why they're cordoned off from the 50/60/70/80 roulette and into their own roulette in the first place. People who don't want to deal with it simply don't have to queue that roulette. At least, that's how it should be. Sticking them into another roulette kinda undermines this.

While you're at it, remove extremes too. Extremes are for established players looking for a greater (and optional) challenge, not for newer players that need help with progressing story. (Not to mention most of them past ARR will never get a bite on the DF anyway.)

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Originally Posted by DiaDeem

If you aren't willing to help with every singular duty, don't do Mentor Roulette and while you're at it, remove your Burger King crown.

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lol, nah.

This topic gets brought up a lot. The 3.2 patch notes corroborate the claim that the roulette is meant to help fill duties, but this generally contradicts what actually happens. Like the other roulettes, it tends to repeatedly prioritize certain duties whether they're struggling to find people or not. There's no way Smileton needed bodies if everyone was queueing for it already. It would be more believable if Alliance Raids appeared more often (particularly the Stormblood raids) which not only need the most bodies but have the longest queue times, but they're the rarest type of duty in the roulette, even for backfills.

We can also safely assume that it doesn't prioritize matchmaking with sprouts or first timers, both of which would be sensible, as there are too many occasions where neither appear. I distinctly remember getting a fresh Praetorium with three trade mentors, which shouldn't even be possible.

Also, there's inconsistent logic being applied for MSQ dungeons (which supposedly just need bodies) and Extreme trials (which actually need people to help out), as well as guildhests where neither argument applies, despite them arguably showing up the most. If one or more of those were removed and it led to normal trials/raids/alliance raids appearing more often, it would not be a drawback.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

I personally found that queueing as a tank/healer tended to get me put into 'mundane' things like MSQ roulettes more frequently, so I started to queue as a DPS with 'join in progress' enabled instead. That seemed to make it it much more common for me to be queued into 'obscure' 8+ player duties, namely EX trials which I genuinely enjoyed doing.

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Might be misremembering, but I think the roulette disregards that option and has backfills enabled by default. It would make sense if it's intended to help fill duties.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

Basic common sense says Green Leafs don't need my help watching cutscenes in two very easy instances that got even easier.

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"Got even easier"??
When they revamped Castrum Meridanium/Praetorium a while ago, the instances became much harder in most cases. The ilvl sync got a lot tighter so the instances can no longer be outgeared and the fights just breezed through.
Now you have to work to get through those instances. They are still not very difficult, but sleepwalking through them is no longer possible.

And as others have said - main purpose of Mentor roulette is to fill out with warm bodies where needed, nothing more. In many cases that's all the help needed, but if you think you are too good for that, then don't bother running Mentor Roulette.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

While you're at it, remove extremes too. Extremes are for established players looking for a greater (and optional) challenge, not for newer players that need help with progressing story. (Not to mention most of them past ARR will never get a bite on the DF anyway.)

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If Extremes are for established players why does it pop so often in Mentor roulette then? There are a lot of new players out there looking to dip their toes into something bigger than Main Scenario and let's face it, Main Scenario teaches you nothing gameplay wise. In the almost 4k Mentor roulettes I've done, the best experiences are with new players in EX trials and I very rarely don't get the job done. Best of all, I love getting other mentors that moan and complain and they end up leaving, only for us to pass when we get a replacement.

Turns out most mentors are the problem in these roulettes because they unlock the content by undersizing it, then when it comes up in the roulette, they wet the bed and not wanting to be called out for being crap they just moan and leave blaming the sprouts to undersize it. Turns out a lot of sprouts aren't candy men that want the game played for them.

If you're leaving these instances or moaning at others to undersize it, the problem isn't the roulette, it's you being a mentor. The unlock criteria should 100% exclude undersizing unlocks.

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Originally Posted by Asako

If Extremes are for established players why does it pop so often in Mentor roulette then? There are a lot of new players out there looking to dip their toes into something bigger than Main Scenario and let's face it, Main Scenario teaches you nothing gameplay wise. In the almost 4k Mentor roulettes I've done, the best experiences are with new players in EX trials and I very rarely don't get the job done. Best of all, I love getting other mentors that moan and complain and they end up leaving, only for us to pass when we get a replacement.

Turns out most mentors are the problem in these roulettes because they unlock the content by undersizing it, then when it comes up in the roulette, they wet the bed and not wanting to be called out for being crap they just moan and leave blaming the sprouts to undersize it. Turns out a lot of sprouts aren't candy men that want the game played for them.

If you're leaving these instances or moaning at others to undersize it, the problem isn't the roulette, it's you being a mentor. The unlock criteria should 100% exclude undersizing unlocks.

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There's just a whole slew of problems with Extreme trials being in the roulette:

1. Sprouts queue for ARR Extremes unaware of the fact that Party Finder is preferable, because you don't have to find a new group and start over when you time out. It's not their fault for not knowing (unless it's a masochist farming Rathalos scales), but it's a faulty practice that shouldn't be encouraged, especially with how empty PF is most of the time. That's also why only ARR trials show up.
2. Mentors are inevitably going to be unprepared since they're being thrown into a random Extreme and are expected to have all the mechanics memorized.
3. Party balance is all out of whack. Very often will there be 1-2 mentors with 6 sprouts, and it almost always grabs DPS mentors, making it much harder to get through fights.
4. People generally don't use food/potions, and most sprouts aren't even looking at guides. This would be unacceptable in later/modern Extremes, and if that etiquette can't be emulated then why bother doing them synced? Should ARR Extremes be fodder regardless?
5. If the roulette is strictly meant to fill party slots and not actually teach mechanics like in MSQ dungeons, then it's no surprise there are going to be mentors that don't want to deal with Extremes. Complaining about mentors leaving these duties isn't any different from mentors complaining about getting them.

They should just change it so only Guildhests show up in Mentor roulette so I can quickly get the mount and not have to actually mentor people in any content when I do Mentor Roulette.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

lol, nah.

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https://imgur.com/7j9gTVE.gif

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Originally Posted by VictorSpoils

There's just a whole slew of problems with Extreme trials being in the roulette:

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Let's address your points.

1: Sprouts should be able to queue for whatever they want to queue for regardless if it's the norm or not.
2: Mentors must previously clear all content before the roulette is opened to them. You have cleared the fight and thus have a general understanding of whats going on. No one is expecting you to know everything.
3: Whilst it's true more people queue as DPS on mentor there are still plenty of us Tank healer Mentors out there to make up for it. Regardless, I'd rather have an experienced player on DPS than on Tank as most Tanking in this game is stand still and hit boss. I've never in all my time doing mentor roulettes had as issue with who was or was not a Tank / Healer. Some are better than others, but as long as they are willing to read chat then it's not issue.
4: Using Food or Potions is not required in any content outside of Ultimate and first few week Savage. Extreme is no where near that level, also due to the numbers crunch and ilvl scaling you massively outdps all Extremes up until at least Shinryu. For ARR and HW you absolutely nuke the trials to the point you can tell new players to focus more on mechanics than damage because it doesn't matter.
5: Whether people leave or not literally doesn't matter, once you are in you are in, the game will try and fill in progress parties faster so just getting in is a massive boon. As for the teaching part, just make some guides online if you want to be a teacher, when you apply to be a mentor it tells you there and then that you are there to back fill and do so in a positive manner. No where does it say you have to be always teaching players all the boss mechanics. That's just what you implied when you put on the crown.

If anything they should just remove all rewards to do with Mentor so we don't have to listen to people complain because they got something they didn't want as it takes too long all while they blame it on not being what they signed up for.

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Originally Posted by Asako

3: Whilst it's true more people queue as DPS on mentor there are still plenty of us Tank healer Mentors out there to make up for it. Regardless, I'd rather have an experienced player on DPS than on Tank as most Tanking in this game is stand still and hit boss. I've never in all my time doing mentor roulettes had as issue with who was or was not a Tank / Healer. Some are better than others, but as long as they are willing to read chat then it's not issue.

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I seem to frequently get Ramuh Extreme and have run into way too many tanks that cannot seem to grasp the concept of needing to collect 3 orbs to not die or to not PROVOKE THE BOSS WHILE STANDING IN THE RAID no matter how many times you tell them what to do. I dunno what's more baffling: the fact that I get this trial way more often than any other or that I usually end up with braindead tanks on this fight.

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Originally Posted by Espon

I seem to frequently get Ramuh Extreme and have run into way too many tanks that cannot seem to grasp the concept of needing to collect 3 orbs to not die or to not PROVOKE THE BOSS WHILE STANDING IN THE RAID no matter how many times you tell them what to do. I dunno what's more baffling: the fact that I get this trial way more often than any other or that I usually end up with braindead tanks on this fight.

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I get this one a lot also. Getting the tanks to swap isn't really an issue as once you explain things to them it's handy enough. Use se.5 macros to help remind them at the 25s mark. Personally I have more issue trying to get mentors to bait the Chaos. You ask the ranged DPS / Healers [whomever is more experienced] to bait it and they look at you like you have 2 heads. Once you start baiting the chaos most of the damage from the fight just disappears as you have 50% of the mechanic resolved correclty each time. People not wanting to read chat isn't exclusive to sprouts.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

Green Leafs do not need my help watching cutscenes, but other Green Leafs do need my help with actual other content. I'm happy to coach seven of you through any extreme trial, but not cutscenes.

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mentor pony here

so ive gone over before in a thread all the things wrong with mentor system, but in general my biggest gripe was that... i didnt feel like the ppl i was helping needed it.. and even tho i was happy to help them beat nidhog ex or whatever it was.. it was mostly just spamming trails and dungeons and i didnt really enjoy it at all. its a lot of work to fix mentor but i hope they do make an effort. i have an older post with some ideas if you want to look about and share your thoughts

I'm actually rather curious how many people would be ok with mentor system if it didn't have the name mentor at all and completely discarded any notion of teaching all together. There's a section of mentors that want to do Extremes almost exclusively and another section that want next to nothing to do with them at all. Personally I don't think either side is wrong in their mindset. I just think the two ideas being combined is not helping anyone. The roulette itself works well as a backfill for all kinds of content and I would not want that to go away, but I wonder if things would be improved if Extremes had their own roulette to themselves or in addition to the mentor roulette. I feel like the idea of such a system change will become more necessary as more expansions are included within the free trial and more players que into Extremes as their only option given that they have no Party Finder access.

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Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming

mentor pony here

so ive gone over before in a thread all the things wrong with mentor system, but in general my biggest gripe was that... i didnt feel like the ppl i was helping needed it.. and even tho i was happy to help them beat nidhog ex or whatever it was.. it was mostly just spamming trails and dungeons and i didnt really enjoy it at all. its a lot of work to fix mentor but i hope they do make an effort. i have an older post with some ideas if you want to look about and share your thoughts

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What if mentor roulette was changed to the 'y queue so long' roulette, opened to everyone (and the achievement). Then mentor gets some sort of direct help.

Wonder how well a dark souls blue ring like system would work... If you need help you initiate the bat signal and mentors of the appropriate type are notified. Perhaps give them a GM like ability to arrive when needed. Even into instances that are 'full'.

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Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming

so ive gone over before in a thread all the things wrong with mentor system, but in general my biggest gripe was that... i didnt feel like the ppl i was helping needed it.. and even tho i was happy to help them beat nidhog ex or whatever it was..

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That's because Mentor roulette is essentially a filling roulette to shorten the queue, regardless of whether or not there are sprouts (and the sprout icon doesn't mean much these days...it could even be another mentor playing an alt). The game dispatches you according to your chosen role wherever there is a spot to be filled.

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Originally Posted by Asako

If Extremes are for established players why does it pop so often in Mentor roulette then?

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I'm saying what they should be for. It's also really only the ARR extremes (and Rathalos) that come up "often"; I have Astrope and I can barely recall ever getting anything else from HW and beyond.

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There are a lot of new players out there looking to dip their toes into something bigger than Main Scenario

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Which is fine. They still shouldn't be using randos in the DF for it. They only do it because that's what the game literally tells them to do, and they don't know any better yet in ARR (hence why HW extremes and beyond are much rarer to show up)

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and let's face it, Main Scenario teaches you nothing gameplay wise.

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Disagree. Seasoned players just take what they taught for granted.

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In the almost 4k Mentor roulettes I've done, the best experiences are with new players in EX trials and I very rarely don't get the job done. Best of all, I love getting other mentors that moan and complain and they end up leaving, only for us to pass when we get a replacement.

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Ok

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Turns out most mentors are the problem in these roulettes because they unlock the content by undersizing it, then when it comes up in the roulette, they wet the bed and not wanting to be called out for being crap they just moan and leave blaming the sprouts to undersize it. Turns out a lot of sprouts aren't candy men that want the game played for them.

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Don't think your assessment is necessarily correct. I know exactly how Ramuh EX works and how to do the fight. What I don't trust is for rando parties to have the coordination to pull it off smoothly enough to be worth my time. I've had enough runs of this that just ended up being nearly 60 minutes of wasted time to want to bother anymore.

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If you're leaving these instances or moaning at others to undersize it, the problem isn't the roulette, it's you being a mentor. The unlock criteria should 100% exclude undersizing unlocks.

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No, the problem is definitely with the game. Either for allowing extreme content on a "mentor" roulette, or the duty list encouraging new players to DF extreme content like any other duty which fails to actually properly convey their difficulty.

Also, having cleared a duty before without undersizing it is by no means an indication that you know the ins and outs of said duty by heart.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

Green Leafs do not need my help watching cutscenes, but other Green Leafs do need my help with actual other content. I'm happy to coach seven of you through any extreme trial, but not cutscenes.

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Lemme see. So you don't want to do msq scenario. Possibly because cutscenes are forced due to the playerbase in the past who would boot sprouts or force them to skip cutscenes as not to miss out on the fights or miss out on the fights due to watching cutscenes.

Ya got all rights not to queue it. So don't and help sprouts in the other dailies