[Limited Job] Suggestions Megathread

With a new limited job on the horizon, I want to take a moment to discuss the existing Blue Mage content and what improvements the content needs moving forward. As it stands, the biggest criticism I have of Blue Mage currently is that it's too limited.

Both completing the spellbook and the Blue Carnivale are one-and-done types of content, and completing the blue challenge log is niche content that only appeals to players who are both interested in Blue Mage as well as savage content and has the time to commit to blue log completion. The only other thing that Blue Mage can do is grind bi-color gems, leaving the Blue Mage starved for things to actually engage with for many players, and yet I feel there's very low-hanging fruit ripe for Blue Mage to pick that I believe the content should see in the future.

1. PVP
PVP is already a form of content that takes each job, assigns them fixed stats indifferent of gear, and features a completely separate set of actions than in PVE. This quality allows for Blue Mage to seamlessly integrate into the PVP environment, and the same will be true of Beastmaster as well. There is no reason these jobs can't also be added to the PVP roster. Please add Blue Mage to the PVP update in 7.1 and include Beastmaster in PVP when it releases.

2. Field Operations
Ironically, Eureka specifically was created to try and replicate the experience of FF11, the MMO where Blue Mage with its unorthodox system of learning spells was not a limited job. Yet Blue Mage is not allowed in Eureka. Both Eureka and Bozja are the perfect environments for a job like Blue Mage to thrive. In Bozja, we even see Pagaga who is a Beastmaster. These jobs should receive support for Field Operation content in a future update.

3. Deep Dungeons
Like with Field Operations, Deep Dungeons are an environment that compliments limited job gameplay perfectly. I can totally understand wanting to reserve titles like "The Necromancer" to non-limited jobs, but that can very easily be circumvented by having limited jobs receive a different title instead.

4. Adjust the Class Page
This is a much smaller, more nitpicky suggestion, but can Blue Mage be given its own spot on the class tab of your character window rather than lumping it with the caster DPS jobs? This is really misleading both because Blue Mage can be a tank, healer, or DPS, but also implies that we have more caster DPS than we actually do since Blue Mage isn't a real job. With Beastmaster in the woodworks, I think limited jobs should be moved to their own little spot on that window instead to better communicate that they are different from real jobs.

Ultimately, what I'd like to stress is that these jobs are very likely the favorites of some Final Fantasy fans, and even some newcomers may love the fantasy of these jobs. But all of these players don't get to experience what may be their favorite concept as a job they can experience in the story, or in groups with other players. Please consider how to integrate these jobs into real jobs in the future, where they may have a fixed skillset when "unlimited" that keeps them balanced with the other jobs of their respective roles. I realize this is a tall ask, but no one wants to see their favorite job condemned to a corner where they aren't allowed to engage with the majority of the game. You wouldn't like it if the same were done to Black Mage, or Dragoon, or Paladin. Enabling "unlimited" Blue Mage and Beastmaster in the distant future would make a lot of players happy, and can still be completely independent of their limited forms.

What I've listed above might not be everything that players what to see. Feel free to share your own thoughts on suggestions for Blue Mage down below.

1. Advanced job: jobs that come with beyond normal differences. Are normal and 'abnormal' at the same time. BLU for example can still learn spells, but a specific set of skills on the book are gilded (marked specially). Akin to a PvP kit these gilded skills are different in limited and 'unlimited' form, therefore mechanically balanced for fun and sanity.

The job can't enter content missing spells that are obtained below the level of the content (apply this rule to other jobs and their ability quests too). BLU may use DD, exploratory, carnival, totems, open world, solo, msq, and parties to obtain skills (essentially all content). Some gilded skills will upgrade in the balanced form (so you might start with fire angon but at level 55 it becomes eruption, in the balanced format only, you can still choose in the limited format).

Limited will roughly be untouched (but will have restrictions to prevent limited from destroying current expansion content, for fairness, naturally your 'unlimited' side can do any content just as any job would do). Visualize the two options via the turning over of the stone, two sided. If not obvious, blue may learn skills in either form.

Beastmaster naturally also being an advanced job.

Add advanced concepts to jobs where it's fun. Like Bard gaining concerts, taverns, etc to play bard roleplay mini games. Painter gaining their own studio where they can collect different paints and arts which can impact the visuals of their skills. Etc.

2. Definitely yes on DD, exploratory, and PVP (regardless of the advanced idea). I feel that would add a lot of potential content for them.

3. Ideas for limited jobs (could be advanced, but I think people would be less shocked if they didnt- unlike say BLU or BST which totally could be):

- Onion Knight; can use any weapon, utilizes both slots (two weapon potential), shields would auto pair with their sword counterpart but a manual glamour could be applied via a specialized item, can use any type of gear and stats are all valuable, has a scaffold system for building out combos from existing jobs. Scaffold meaning they are not simply copy paste and would be combo / interact able based on a variety of criteria. Like if you choose to select fast cast passive it might lock out another passive, sharp cast might affect all proc based skills. Etc. your 1 2 3 could vary. You could have a mage, tank, ranged, mix, etc.

- Magitek Operator; Xenogears, Xenosaga, G-Warrior, Gundam, Armored core, etc

I don't think your 4 is nitpicking. Honestly I was so annoyed with blue originally that I had requested it moved just because I disliked seeing it as how they did it. Lol. If they were going to forever be limited (likely...... Unfortunately..).. then yeah I think it still should move. Leave it if they can develop advanced concepts though.

I would love advanced in part because I really feel jobs in general miss roleplay, and this would be the opportunity to show they have it. Limited is like 'we can either make it useful, or we can give it roleplay' meanwhile quite a few other MMOs can achieve both. Like my fear for our beastmaster is it'll be barely or at worst less interesting than WoW hunter or GW2 ranger while also being limited. Kind of a sad and embarrassing proposition. Hopefully I'm wrong and they put solid effort, but if they don't.. man. Very much an invincible meme /feeling/ (not universally true) in terms of interesting and unique gameplay relevant systems dedicated to jobs "look at what they (SE) has to do to for a fraction of our power (WoW / GW2)".

I appreciate your last comment. I was asking for blue since 1.0, wanting to main it dearly. Release of blue was devastating (in a first world sense). I am absolutely biased and still salty about it lol. Probably will never not be..

Allowing them into Eureka and Bozja would be great for getting through the content.

For PvP, I think there was some talk of a BLU Battle Royale mode where you would get randomized spells..


My main suggestion still remains for them to allow it to reach the same max level as other classes (maybe up to the level of your highest non-limited Job), but keep the limitations that they can only enter dungeons, trials and raids in a pre-made group and for Savage and Extreme having a BLU should lock the party out of loot so you can't just cheese them with a BLU, but could theoretically use it to learn the fights.

Complete rework is required. Limited Jobs as they are just aren't worth the frustration. Players would be happy if they let the Jobs progress through MSQ and participate in content up to their level instead of pidgeonholing them which just leads to being excluded or the player harboring resentment towards not being able to play their favorite job class.

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Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

Allowing them into Eureka and Bozja would be great for getting through the content.

For PvP, I think there was some talk of a BLU Battle Royale mode where you would get randomized spells..

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Even still, that isn't Crystaline Conflict or Frontlines. I'm talking about letting Blue Mage and eventually Beastmaster into the current PVP formats as well. Everything that "justifies" they be limited jobs is irrelevant to how PVP is set up in this game. Let people play with other jobs.

Probably an unpopular opinion, but letting Blue Mage into exploration zones would not be good. It would be amazing for Blue Mage, but completely disastrous for the gameplay ecosystems within Eureka, and Bozja. I think a lot of people underestimate just how strong Blue Mage is at base so to give is access to haste gear, and Logos/Lost actions would beyond break it. There are already super overpowered job, and action combos that certain players use to grief other players so I think it could make the instances unplayable for anyone not playing Blue Mage.

Aside from that, I'm totally down for creating pvp opportunities for limited jobs, and letting them into like deep dungeons or something. That would be fun.

Wholeheartedly agree on everything said, Blue Mage deserve some love and attention form SE. give the job some stuff to do, especially PvP.

i hope blues never get into
current
- endgame dungeon
- raids
- trials
any
- ultimates
- criterions
- exploration zones
- pvp

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Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming

i hope blues never get into
current
- endgame dungeon
- raids
- trials
any
- ultimates
- criterions
- exploration zones
- pvp

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Not going to elaborate on why?

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Originally Posted by mallleable

Probably an unpopular opinion, but letting Blue Mage into exploration zones would not be good. It would be amazing for Blue Mage, but completely disastrous for the gameplay ecosystems within Eureka, and Bozja. I think a lot of people underestimate just how strong Blue Mage is at base so to give is access to haste gear, and Logos/Lost actions would beyond break it. There are already super overpowered job, and action combos that certain players use to grief other players so I think it could make the instances unplayable for anyone not playing Blue Mage.

Aside from that, I'm totally down for creating pvp opportunities for limited jobs, and letting them into like deep dungeons or something. That would be fun.

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You could potentially disable certain spells within Field Operations. Like I assume you're referring to Malediction of Water for example.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

You could potentially disable certain spells within Field Operations. Like I assume you're referring to Malediction of Water for example.

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What happens is some players will pull an NM as soon as it spawns, and drag it to a hard to reach spot making most of the NM's attacks unavoidable -- killing players in the process. They do so on WAR so it's basically impossible to rip aggro off them to reposition the boss to a safer spot. This is especially bad with the NM Skoll because the mobs that are needed to kill to spawn it on one side of the map, and the NM spawns on the other. So it is incredible difficult for the players who are trying to spawn it to actually get to the NM to get kill credit. A blue mage would absolutely be able to grief with these MPK tactics, and effectively solo the boss with their obscene amounts of damage before anyone has a chance to get to the NM.

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Originally Posted by mallleable

What happens is some players will pull an NM as soon as it spawns, and drag it to a hard to reach spot making most of the NM's attacks unavoidable -- killing players in the process. They do so on WAR so it's basically impossible to rip aggro off them to reposition the boss to a safer spot. This is especially bad with the NM Skoll because the mobs that are needed to kill to spawn it on one side of the map, and the NM spawns on the other. So it is incredible difficult for the players who are trying to spawn it to actually get to the NM to get kill credit. A blue mage would absolutely be able to grief with these MPK tactics, and effectively solo the boss with their obscene amounts of damage before anyone has a chance to get to the NM.

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To be honest, I don't think it's fair to limit player opportunity because of player misconduct. You're denying people who may want to enjoy something very different in Eureka because of bad behavior--punishing the entire class because of the behavior of one or two students, and I despise that mentality. I would rather see harsher punishment on the individual for behaving poorly. If we took that mentality to the extreme, you could make an argument for shutting down all of FFXIV because some players will grief others, troll others, or more seriously stalk and harass players through the game as a medium. Obviously that isn't what you're suggesting, but my point is that isn't the right mentality to hold. We should not deny players fun because a select few will abuse that.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

To be honest, I don't think it's fair to limit player opportunity because of player misconduct. You're denying people who may want to enjoy something very different in Eureka because of bad behavior--punishing the entire class because of the behavior of one or two students, and I despise that mentality. I would rather see harsher punishment on the individual for behaving poorly. If we took that mentality to the extreme, you could make an argument for shutting down all of FFXIV because some players will grief others, troll others, or more seriously stalk and harass players through the game as a medium. Obviously that isn't what you're suggesting, but my point is that isn't the right mentality to hold. We should not deny players fun because a select few will abuse that.

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Fair. However, my point still stands because even if a blue mage was playing benevolently they could still potentially cause problems for other players by killing NMs too quickly by just doing their damage rotation -- NMs that are needed for leveling, and relic progress. It's already possible to not get full kill credit on A, and S ranks because they die too quickly -- even being a in full party of tanks, and being there for the pull. At this point in the expansion it's basically considered rude to do your normal opener, and damage rotation on an S rank -- at least on my data center. It wouldn't be fair to expect a blue mage to limit themselves because that would defeat the whole point of letting them in in the first place. My main concern is that it could turn what's supposed to be a multiplayer experience into a single player's game.

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Originally Posted by mallleable

Fair. However, my point still stands because even if a blue mage was playing benevolently they could still potentially cause problems for other players by killing NMs too quickly by just doing their damage rotation -- NMs that are needed for leveling, and relic progress. It's already possible to not get full kill credit on A, and S ranks because they die too quickly -- even being a in full party of tanks, and being there for the pull. At this point in the expansion it's basically considered rude to do your normal opener, and damage rotation on an S rank -- at least on my data center. It wouldn't be fair to expect a blue mage to limit themselves because that would defeat the whole point of letting them in in the first place. My main concern is that it could turn what's supposed to be a multiplayer experience into a single player's game.

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Then handicap it if it's that big of an issue. I'm sure if given the option between playing blue mage with a weaker burst or not playing blue mage at all, players interested would choose the later option.

I agree with first and last suggestions there. However, when it comes to allowing them into hardcore content like DD solo would completely annihilate any competitive aspect with their ridiculous clearing potential; and allowing them into field areas would just completely destroy any difficulty aspects of those, making all other jobs obsolete. It's bad idea to put them in such environments because things like BA or DRS will just become complete jokes.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Then handicap it if it's that big of an issue. I'm sure if given the option between playing blue mage with a weaker burst or not playing blue mage at all, players interested would choose the later option.

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I think a better solution would be to have limited job only instances.

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Originally Posted by Heroman3003

I agree with first and last suggestions there. However, when it comes to allowing them into hardcore content like DD solo would completely annihilate any competitive aspect with their ridiculous clearing potential; and allowing them into field areas would just completely destroy any difficulty aspects of those, making all other jobs obsolete. It's bad idea to put them in such environments because things like BA or DRS will just become complete jokes.

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This imo adds fuel to the fire that limited was a mistake. Can't let a limited job enjoy entire sections of content, permanently, because it wouldn't be enjoyable to everyone else. Nice job making a job that is so problematic that it is argued to be excluded... Real top quality design :(... (Sarcasm if not obvious).

BLU is starving for content, and what is there typically requires some level of commitment I'm just not ready or willing to give, even if I were interested in said content, and even if I had a reason to want to do them. I don't have a reason to, because the reward structure is so devoid of substance. I fear Beastmaster will suffer the same curse. I want their progression to not be linked to higher-end content, I want them to have access to PvP, and I want incentives to play and level them that go further than just being rewarded with a completion stamp.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

This imo adds fuel to the fire that limited was a mistake. Can't let a limited job enjoy entire sections of content, permanently, because it wouldn't be enjoyable to everyone else. Nice job making a job that is so problematic that it is argued to be excluded... Real top quality design :(... (Sarcasm if not obvious).

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That's because the mistake wasn't the exclusionary design but calling it a job. BLU was fundamentally not designed to be a job, and acting like it's somehow design issue that it's not a job is stupid. Limited jobs are it's own type of side content, in similar vein to stuff like Gold Saucer or Island Sanctuary. Completely self contained side thing that isn't meant to really interfere with existing core systems. The biggest mistakes were calling them jobs and putting them on job tab of character panel.

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Originally Posted by Heroman3003

That's because the mistake wasn't the exclusionary design but calling it a job. BLU was fundamentally not designed to be a job, and acting like it's somehow design issue that it's not a job is stupid. Limited jobs are it's own type of side content, in similar vein to stuff like Gold Saucer or Island Sanctuary. Completely self contained side thing that isn't meant to really interfere with existing core systems. The biggest mistakes were calling them jobs and putting them on job tab of character panel.

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Id accept that logic as a counter point. Honestly would have been happier if they had just introduced lancet as a gimmick item side content without a job nomenclature lol. Then the pretense would be lost at least, and the dream wouldn't feel like it was smeared with dirt and misleading concepts.

Though they called it a job, so I think it's quite fair to view it through the lens of both their poorly chosen article and also from the general space of player desire ('i desired to main it' what it got was a mini-game specific to much smaller audience that I was not included on). Of course it's their right to design how they want, could release Teletubbies as the next race and used car salesman as the next job, but I'll feel comfortable criticizing choices that I think were not good then.

I really hate the notion of "well it's too OP so it's not allowed to play in any content at all." What's the point of it existing in the first place if it cannot be used in the content players want to play it in? If it's too broken, then nerf it. Better to have it be weaker but playable than OP but cannot be played anywhere at all.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

I really hate the notion of "well it's too OP so it's not allowed to play in any content at all." What's the point of it existing in the first place if it cannot be used in the content players want to play it in? If it's too broken, then nerf it. Better to have it be weaker but playable than OP but cannot be played anywhere at all.

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It's even more annoying when you realize it's only "OP" when it's allowed to be.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

I really hate the notion of "well it's too OP so it's not allowed to play in any content at all." What's the point of it existing in the first place if it cannot be used in the content players want to play it in? If it's too broken, then nerf it. Better to have it be weaker but playable than OP but cannot be played anywhere at all.

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Originally Posted by Mayhemmer

It's even more annoying when you realize it's only "OP" when it's allowed to be.

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Oh my God yes lol. It was extremely annoying to hear at release when they had chance based death spells only, of which didn't work on many targets. Not only was that awful gameplay (and still is), it was exceptionally easy solution to solve given it was a fraction of spells causing an issue.

Though all the arguments that it can't be real basically revolve around SE isn't good enough at design (same as pet arguments), SE doesn't have enough money, or the person replying doesn't care. There have been many solutions offered (some would cost more, certainly), that covers everything from whole reworks to ideas that blend existing systems that some people have said they like with systems that turn it into a real boy- job. All made worse when you look out the window to games willing to go the extra mile for their jobs to create flavor: 'pets hard' while we look out at games (MMOs) with pet and zoo builds that aren't limited jobs.

They could, they just choose not to, which honestly does make me more upset about the whole thing. "we could do it right, we just won't"

Boop!
Check out this thread SE

It would take a bit more adjusting then that. See Blue mages get an insane opener in Moonflute into all of their cool downs but I can't find any direct comparisons so I can't even begin to make guesses at what a flat footed attempt at balancing them would take but....I kind of also think that if it's not anything competitive, it doesn't really matter. Blue mages take way more effort than other jobs so they are always going to be niche, so what if they blow up the Great Gubal Library or the tower of Zot?