Tank mitigation should be balanced to dungeons

I think it’s unfair that DRK should have a harder time in dungeons compared to other tanks. It’s not like mitigation matters to high-end raiders so mitigation should be balanced to dungeon content so that all tanks are on equal footing. High-end raiders only care about damage numbers so as long as damage numbers remain equal, they won’t complain about mitigation being based about dungeon content. I don’t see how “dungeons are easy anyone can clear” should be a reason to not balance to dungeons. I shouldn’t have to rely on gear or hope my healer is good at the game to be able to clear a dungeon on a tank.

Use Living Dead.

The only thing DRK could honestly ever need is the Addle treatment on Dark Mind - put -10% physical reduction on it.

Beyond this, DRK needs genuinely nothing for dungeons. I do Tower of Zot final zone max pulls spacing out my tools well.

Humble note if no caster or ranged uses LB on trashpulls, steal it for personal mitigation.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

The only thing DRK could honestly ever need is the Addle treatment on Dark Mind - put -10% physical reduction on it.

Beyond this, DRK needs genuinely nothing for dungeons. I do Tower of Zot final zone max pulls spacing out my tools well.

Humble note if no caster or ranged uses LB on trashpulls, steal it for personal mitigation.

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Tower of Zot isn't the hardest dungeon to play DRK in
Bardam's Mettle is.

and most of DRK's fraility and issues lie in the fact its an incomplete job before lv 70, and abyssal drain is comically underpowered for all the heavy lifting its expected to do as the only unique thing thats relevant at that level DRK has.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

Tower of Zot isn't the hardest dungeon to play DRK in
Bardam's Mettle is.

and most of DRK's fraility and issues lie in the fact its an incomplete job before lv 70, and abyssal drain is comically underpowered for all the heavy lifting its expected to do as the only unique thing thats relevant at that level DRK has.

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This is why dungeons are so easy for pulls, because wall to wall will be balanced around trying to keep Dark knight alive, I've noticed how much easier pulls have gotten in 6.1+

Ideally what needs to happen is warrior needs to be nerfed to not aoe heal (some other nerfs like shakes healing and all that would also be welcome), PLD's Magic attack healing should be replaced (put it somewhere else, I dont like healing tolls that i can't control) and reduced a bit, GNB is fine as it is, I'd personally like dark knight to get slow sustain over time and maybe dark mind Can mitigate some physical damage like (10-15%), TBN and all short defensives should be given eariler and PLD should have more self sustain eariler.

If you play dark knight in level 90 / expert dungeons, for the most part i can wall to wall fine, it seems like the healer barely needs to do anything, but if you're playing the first EW dungeon it's a massive honestly a struggle at the end at least for me when i don't have a pure healer, I feel like i can cycle pretty well on DRK; but honestly wall to walls should feel rough, it's a fun part for tanking.

My personal belief is that Dark Knight is currently fine in dungeons, but I want to give dark knight a little bit more (not to warrior levels, it's honestly just really bad how warrior functions in dungeons), so we can actually discuss making AOE harsher and letting tanks Pull more then 2 packs.

DRK is fine in dungeons that you are not doing trusts with, or bad healers with. DRK is the king of mitigation. It lacks however self sustain to where you have to have more incoming heals than other tanks in dungeon outside of your abysall drain and TBN windows.

Overall the leveling process for all tanks needs to be looked at. Obviously if you do any dungeon on WAR, you can see it is way ahead of its tank counter parts. One will argue this is a dungeon and its casual content, but if one tank is way better in content most people play then there is a serious problem.

We only have to hope there are some serious changes to leveling, self sustain, and mitigation as a whole in the next expansion.

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Originally Posted by Derio

DRK is the king of mitigation.

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* Magic Mitigation

If you account for Physical damage, Dark Knight has no unique mitigation until lv 70, and in current content it only has 10% unique mitigation for it with Oblation. Not an issue in raids as they tend to either be mixed or dominantly magic, but in anything physical DRK only has TBN/Oblation on the other tanks. Not even its raidwide mit can be used here.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

* Magic Mitigation

If you account for Physical damage, Dark Knight has no unique mitigation until lv 70, and in current content it only has 10% unique mitigation for it with Oblation. Not an issue in raids as they tend to either be mixed or dominantly magic, but in anything physical DRK only has TBN/Oblation on the other tanks. Not even its raidwide mit can be used here.

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I think DRK just needs to have Dark Mind swapped with something else entirely. If anything, in Dungeons you typically get 0 Value out of using it during W2W pulls, let alone normal pulls as mobs do Physical damage a majority of the time. If we're looking at a Raid perspective though, removing Dark Mind wouldn't necessarily harm DRK's mitigation kit too heavily, it'd just be a tad more reliant on TBN and ask for people to hold 3000 MP more often instead of burn it every 60s.

I'll use Bardam's Mettle as a standard as Oizen mentioned it was the hardest for DRK. I'll only be going over personal mits+survival tools and not Role Actions, as those are a given.

DRK: Living Dead(10s Doom and Undying w/ Lifesteal), Abyssal Drain(Minor Lifesteal)

WAR: Thrill(eHP), Holmgang(1 HP), Raw Intuition(100% Damage Lifesteal), Equilibrium(Self-heal)

PLD: Sheltron(15%), Hallowed(Invincible), Bulwark(Guaranteed 20% Mit), Divine Veil(Shield), Clemency(Hard-cast Heal)

GNB: Aurora(Regen), Super(1 HP, but Invincible), HoL(Magic Mit; useless here)

So as you can see, for dungeons PLD and WAR are stacked, while GNB/DRK are lacking in proper defensives pre-70 - DRK moreso due to a lack of survival tools. The 20/30% Mits are a given, but managing them boils down to healer capability mostly. If anything, I'm on the side of the fence for giving DRK one more Mit to be used to replace Dark Mind - but shifting TBN to Lv 62 would make a lot more sense by moving Delirium to Lv 70(since WAR gets Inner Release at Lv 70) and Bloodspiller/Quietus being moved to 64/68. GNB can have Heart of Stone moved to Lv 62 while Bow Shock can be 64, HoL be 68 so you get the mits you need earlier.

I hope they would give back DRK Dark Dance as a 100% parry rate like they gave PLD Bulwark, if it comes around the same level as Dark Mind it would already fix a lot of DRK's mit problems trought the entire game

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

I think DRK just needs to have Dark Mind swapped with something else entirely. If anything, in Dungeons you typically get 0 Value out of using it during W2W pulls, let alone normal pulls as mobs do Physical damage a majority of the time. If we're looking at a Raid perspective though, removing Dark Mind wouldn't necessarily harm DRK's mitigation kit too heavily, it'd just be a tad more reliant on TBN and ask for people to hold 3000 MP more often instead of burn it every 60s.

I'll use Bardam's Mettle as a standard as Oizen mentioned it was the hardest for DRK. I'll only be going over personal mits+survival tools and not Role Actions, as those are a given.

DRK: Living Dead(10s Doom and Undying w/ Lifesteal), Abyssal Drain(Minor Lifesteal)

WAR: Thrill(eHP), Holmgang(1 HP), Raw Intuition(100% Damage Lifesteal), Equilibrium(Self-heal)

PLD: Sheltron(15%), Hallowed(Invincible), Bulwark(Guaranteed 20% Mit), Divine Veil(Shield), Clemency(Hard-cast Heal)

GNB: Aurora(Regen), Super(1 HP, but Invincible), HoL(Magic Mit; useless here)

So as you can see, for dungeons PLD and WAR are stacked, while GNB/DRK are lacking in proper defensives pre-70 - DRK moreso due to a lack of survival tools. The 20/30% Mits are a given, but managing them boils down to healer capability mostly. If anything, I'm on the side of the fence for giving DRK one more Mit to be used to replace Dark Mind - but shifting TBN to Lv 62 would make a lot more sense by moving Delirium to Lv 70(since WAR gets Inner Release at Lv 70) and Bloodspiller/Quietus being moved to 64/68. GNB can have Heart of Stone moved to Lv 62 while Bow Shock can be 64, HoL be 68 so you get the mits you need earlier.

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Ok so here is my take on Bardam's Mettle. By every stretch, you are correct - if you look purely at DRK's kit it is possibly the most difficult especially when you consider the first packs with the Gulo Gulo.

However it is important to note that in Stormblood compared to future expansions healing done is comparatively a lot higher relative to your max HP both by healers and tanks. So while you still take a buttload of damage, Healers generally have an easier time keeping you up because their heals are relatively more potent than for example Lv80 or 82, which is weird because Healers only got more healing tools.

The reason I cited Tower of Zot in particular is because it is within that reach where you notice the disparity of mob pulls compared to other tanks the most. After the first boss the rooms with the Hypertuned hurt a lot and grabbing all iron giants + roader + magitek spiders at the end needs a LOT of mitigation AND healing, so both the tank and healer need to be completely on their game for that bit if they do the maximum pull.

This is why I suggest treating Dark Mind like Addle: 20% magical mitigation, 10% physical mitigation. It would help out in dungeons for being dominantly physical in mob pulls and would keep the emphasis of being a magical defensive vs GNB's Camouflage being more suited for physical damage, notably auto attacks.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

The only thing DRK could honestly ever need is the Addle treatment on Dark Mind - put -10% physical reduction on it.

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They should get rid of the concept of actions only mitigating magic damage ideally. You rarely run into trash mobs that do magic damage anyways so won't be a loss. Magic mitigation only doesn't need to exist in normal content.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

Tower of Zot isn't the hardest dungeon to play DRK in
Bardam's Mettle is.

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I would say Doma Castle, because it has some big pulls and is right before DRk gets his shield.

I watch tanks not use all their resources on almost every occasion. You can mitigate dps with Reprisal and Arm's Length. You have a limit break that will just sit on 1 or two bars cuz barely anyone uses it in casual content like dungeons. You have your invuln which you don't owe it to the healer to not use because it hurts their feefees thinking you dont trust their healing, which you shouldn't because you don't know them in Pug roulette parties. I watched a Gnb not superbolide with 10 percent of his hp because i had fallen behind because of an irl distraction. I had to blow ALL my resources to keep him alive because he didn't invuln. you have resources and NO tank should ever have trouble in dungeon content unless its pre heavensward...screw ARR dungeons just saying.

A bare minimum change would be bumping Oblation down to ARR levels and maybe TBN to 60. That is, if they aren't changed entirely.

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Originally Posted by HyonaCookie

They should get rid of the concept of actions only mitigating magic damage ideally. You rarely run into trash mobs that do magic damage anyways so won't be a loss. Magic mitigation only doesn't need to exist in normal content.

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This wouldn't be an issue with HoL or Dark Missionary, infact I'd welcome it seeing how ok they are with Shake it off being as busted as it is right now.

But we'd have to rework Dark Mind entirely, as having a skill thats just rampart on a 60s cd seems a bit silly to me.

Minor per hit healing from Salt and Darkness. 10% physical mit, also, on Dark Mind. Done.

Frankly, even without that, we have tools enough not to need GCD heals as a DRK unless we and/or our party are undergeared.

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Originally Posted by SerophisRagnarok

I watch tanks not use all their resources on almost every occasion. You can mitigate dps with Reprisal and Arm's Length. You have a limit break that will just sit on 1 or two bars cuz barely anyone uses it in casual content like dungeons. You have your invuln which you don't owe it to the healer to not use because it hurts their feefees thinking you dont trust their healing, which you shouldn't because you don't know them in Pug roulette parties. I watched a Gnb not superbolide with 10 percent of his hp because i had fallen behind because of an irl distraction. I had to blow ALL my resources to keep him alive because he didn't invuln. you have resources and NO tank should ever have trouble in dungeon content unless its pre heavensward...screw ARR dungeons just saying.

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But is it fair that other tanks can use less than half their kit to get through a dungeon easily while DRK has to use it's entire kit to do the same thing? If there's any justice in the world, they would buff DRK so it too doesn't require its full kit to survive trash packs or nerf all other tanks so they have to use every part of the kit to survive.

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Originally Posted by HyonaCookie

But is it fair that other tanks can use less than half their kit to get through a dungeon easily while DRK has to use it's entire kit to do the same thing? If there's any justice in the world, they would buff DRK so it too doesn't require its full kit to survive trash packs or nerf all other tanks so they have to use every part of the kit to survive.

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Its a bit worse than that. Dark Knight using its entire kit will not match the others and will still require team support.
Which I'm actually fine with and I would urge more on the side of nerf the others, mainly WAR and to a lesser extent PLD.

But since they wont nerf it, that kinda forces us to buff DRK in this unhealthy direction.

I think it's pretty simple what can change

War needs AOE healing removed to be balanced, also remove regen healing from Shake it off, regen can go off equilibrium as well quite frankly.
PLD needs a tiny bit less healing, I've mentioned before Removing the Magic attack healing and putting *some* of that in another skill such as a way to make clemency OGCD or something.
DRK could use a tiny bit more in AOE, such as making DM have some physical (like 10% while being 20% magic) and giving them some small sustain. (Nothing on par with warrior or even pld, im saying small sustain for a reason).

I think the biggest issue is warrior, As you can't balance having bigger harsher pulls while warrior is in their current state, I personally want to feel more on wall to wall, I want it to be a group effort instead of something i barely think about.

Every time this thread comes up it can basically be summed up as “DRK is getting flak for feeling weak compared to how comically overpowered WAR is in normal content so the obvious answer is to buff DRK and not for some reason nerf WAR”

As a healer main DRK and GNB have the right amount of sustain (especially with things like being able to abuse living dead for a proxy benediction), the problem is WAR, why the hell does bloodwhetting need to be per target hit rather than per GCD, why do shake and equal need regen effects, I don’t like being cucked out of my own role by the tank

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Originally Posted by VictorSpoils

A bare minimum change would be bumping Oblation down to ARR levels and maybe TBN to 60. That is, if they aren't changed entirely.

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...or give Dark Mind additionally 10% physical mitigation. No need to move Oblation all the way down, it absolutely deserves to be Lv82.

Ignoring the simplicity of implementing this rather than throwing around Level ranges, it hits two birds with one stone...

1.) Fills that extra gap or throughput in mitigation early on (pairs well with Reprisal)
2.) Would solve the issue a pure-magic Dark Mind would have in fights with physical autos, busters and mechanics compared to Camouflage, the physical counterpart to Dark Mind.

I don't really tank, but I do heal a lot. I can tell you that a DRK who knows what they're doing will seemingly be taking nearly no damage save for the starts of big pulls. You can slap two or three OGCDs on them and they're golden (compared to WAR who doesn't need you at all). They're fine. It's just that DRK is on the more complex side of things when it comes to actually playing it well, I guess.

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Originally Posted by PercibelTheren

I don't really tank, but I do heal a lot. I can tell you that a DRK who knows what they're doing will seemingly be taking nearly no damage save for the starts of big pulls. You can slap two or three OGCDs on them and they're golden (compared to WAR who doesn't need you at all). They're fine. It's just that DRK is on the more complex side of things when it comes to actually playing it well, I guess.

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Now do it in lv 60 content

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

...or give Dark Mind additionally 10% physical mitigation. No need to move Oblation all the way down, it absolutely deserves to be Lv82.

Ignoring the simplicity of implementing this rather than throwing around Level ranges, it hits two birds with one stone...

1.) Fills that extra gap or throughput in mitigation early on (pairs well with Reprisal)
2.) Would solve the issue a pure-magic Dark Mind would have in fights with physical autos, busters and mechanics compared to Camouflage, the physical counterpart to Dark Mind.

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That works too, but 70 levels with no support abilities is rather harsh when the other tanks get at least one in that span. They already moved Stalwart Soul down to that range, which made just as much sense. Oblation provides the same 10% mitigation that this new Dark Mind would give, but the latter is available 40 levels sooner and can't target allies.

It's not like Oblation was crucial to getting through those four or so leveling dungeons that you have it in, compared to the flashier abilities the other tanks got. Camouflage also similarly suffers from lack of use in 8-man fights with magic auto-attacks or when off-tanking. The fact that it has a 10% mitigation already built in makes Dark Mind and Oblation look like one action that was split in half.

Really I just think early dungeons is bad for tanks, I feel like most tanks at 60 or below feel really awful to play (maybe outside warrior but i don't like warrior lol), PLD needs spells (a massive part of its identity that it doesn't get until stormblood) and some small sustain earlier, DRK/GNB need short mit and raid wides earlier. Also just give us gap closers all around 50-60 (if not eariler). Personally I don't want to play any tank at lower levels it feels so boring.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Really I just think early dungeons is bad for tanks, I feel like most tanks at 60 or below feel really awful to play (maybe outside warrior but i don't like warrior lol), PLD needs spells (a massive part of its identity that it doesn't get until stormblood) and some small sustain earlier, DRK/GNB need short mit and raid wides earlier. Also just give us gap closers all around 50-60 (if not eariler). Personally I don't want to play any tank at lower levels it feels so boring.

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I especially noticed when soloing Aquapolis that WAR has Thrill of Battle, Raw Intuition, and Equilibrium at 60 to go with everything else. It's in a league of its own.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Really I just think early dungeons is bad for tanks, I feel like most tanks at 60 or below feel really awful to play (maybe outside warrior but i don't like warrior lol), PLD needs spells (a massive part of its identity that it doesn't get until stormblood) and some small sustain earlier, DRK/GNB need short mit and raid wides earlier. Also just give us gap closers all around 50-60 (if not eariler). Personally I don't want to play any tank at lower levels it feels so boring.

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DRK and GNB's raidwide are less than useless in dungeons though, unless they want to make them into full mitigation instead of just magic.

To be honest this isn't even a tank specific issue, Level sync in this game is ass, and when jobs are added or reworked it is never taken into consideration.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

DRK and GNB's raidwide are less than useless in dungeons though, unless they want to make them into full mitigation instead of just magic.

To be honest this isn't even a tank specific issue, Level sync in this game is ass, and when jobs are added or reworked it is never taken into consideration.

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Generally I think level synch effects tank the most, but yeah I do agree it effects all jobs (outside healer imo, I find healers more fun at lower levels because you can actually gcd heal), I just really dislike being synched down as a tank personally compared to anything else, they need to actually consider how jobs feel at early levels.

Oh I agree with tanks like DRK/GNB not just getting "magic only"

To be honest I actually wish raid wides were more fitting to the classes, such as Dark knight I rather have something similar to DV.
If I was to do raid wides (just from my POV), to fit more "thematically"
PLD: DV (The same, maybe replace its burst healing for aoe, not both), Passage either keep it as a "cone" or make it a 120 10-15% mit and make it like white mage, personally I dislike Passage but i know some people enjoy the cone AOE.
DRK: something like DV, but a bit stronger but only the barrier aspect of it.
War: a "beastly" shout that intimidates nearby enemies and makes the enemies do less damage for 10-15% (similar to reprisal lol, but it actually fits warrior instead of being a group healer...)
GNB: Same as current but also physical... can be bumped up to be more in line with other tanks.

Honestly theirs so much I want from tank changes in "DT" because their current state is honestly sort of miserable, I'm not really content with DRK's EW design nor with PLD's rework or Warriors state of being busted in normal content (even the best pick in hard content).

It comes down to pretty much every tank needing a re-evaluation, my only fear is if that happens tanks will become just even more similar lol.

Honestly Bloodwhetting is just crazy powerful as you literally dont have to pop any mitigation and can let yourself get really low. Pop BW and get to full health in a GCD or two. They gave PLD healing to help its self sustain to not be bad in dungeons. Lets be real here, before the PLD changes, PLD was really bad in dungeons and the only real sustain was casting clemency on yourself.

DRK at least had abyssal drain and TBN. GNB Aurora got buffed and it has HOC which is really good. DRK is the tank that was left out in terms of getting its self sustain updated.

Tanks getting updated in self sustain was another effort by SE to make healing easier, especially in dungeons. Do people think they will role that back and make healing harder in dungeons?

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Every time this thread comes up it can basically be summed up as “DRK is getting flak for feeling weak compared to how comically overpowered WAR is in normal content so the obvious answer is to buff DRK and not for some reason nerf WAR”

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That's because people are less receptive to the idea of nerfing a job. More people are more likely to agree with you if you ask for buffs, and if you were to suggest nerfs to a job, people who play said job would be up in arms.

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Originally Posted by HyonaCookie

That's because people are less receptive to the idea of nerfing a job. More people are more likely to agree with you if you ask for buffs, and if you were to suggest nerfs to a job, people who play said job would be up in arms.

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And the fact that they won’t nerf jobs is why we have such insane power creep

Does anyone besides WAR’s want every tank to be able to invalidate healers in all content below extreme

Its going to be a really sad day if every tank gets their own forms of BW/Nascent/Shake because they refused to tone back WAR.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

Its going to be a really sad day if every tank gets their own forms of BW/Nascent/Shake because they refused to tone back WAR.

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They will still somehow manage to give Warrior a new toy that makes them stand out from other tanks, as is tradition.

Equalized the sustain of other tanks to get to WAR's level? No worries, WAR gets his 4th stack of Onslaught, two stacks of Shake it Off, maybe get another damage button at Double Down potency + guaranteed critical + direct hit and possibly also an AOE draw-in for mobs because getting rid of the cone-shaped Overpower was not enough.

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Originally Posted by HyonaCookie

That's because people are less receptive to the idea of nerfing a job. More people are more likely to agree with you if you ask for buffs, and if you were to suggest nerfs to a job, people who play said job would be up in arms.

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It's probably why WAR tends to get more buffs in general since I hardly ever see WAR mains go out of their way to mess with other jobs. If anything most of whom I interact with and of course the bald legend himself would rather have all the tanks be good rather than simple warrior.

Trying to explain Loss Aversion in threads like these falls upon deaf ears though unfortunately. While everyone else is busy trying to keep nerfing WAR when historically it only ever at worst, has a bad patch at the beginning of an expansion(2.0 with being unable to handle tankbusters, 4.0 with Shake It Off being useless, 6.0 with Inner Release being expended on all GCD's including Tomahawk), before getting stronger later, they'll find they don't get quite as much buffs as they would like. In trying to bring down WAR constantly, they miss a chance to get some buffs of their own.

Of course, that could just be a theory, but it's interesting to say the least. Telling the truth makes us crazy advocates for power creep apparently even when counters are offered. Nerfs should only be warranted when say, Fell Cleave can take 15% off a Savage bosses HP bar. Core-A Gaming's video on Buffs over Nerfs may be on fighting games but it's quite relevant across the board.

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Originally Posted by MikoRemi

It's probably why WAR tends to get more buffs in general since I hardly ever see WAR mains go out of their way to mess with other jobs. If anything most of whom I interact with and of course the bald legend himself would rather have all the tanks be good rather than simple warrior.

Trying to explain Loss Aversion in threads like these falls upon deaf ears though unfortunately. While everyone else is busy trying to keep nerfing WAR when historically it only ever at worst, has a bad patch at the beginning of an expansion(2.0 with being unable to handle tankbusters, 4.0 with Shake It Off being useless, 6.0 with Inner Release being expended on all GCD's including Tomahawk), before getting stronger later, they'll find they don't get quite as much buffs as they would like. In trying to bring down WAR constantly, they miss a chance to get some buffs of their own.

Of course, that could just be a theory, but it's interesting to say the least. Telling the truth makes us crazy advocates for power creep apparently even when counters are offered. Nerfs should only be warranted when say, Fell Cleave can take 15% off a Savage bosses HP bar. Core-A Gaming's video on Buffs over Nerfs may be on fighting games but it's quite relevant across the board.

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The problem is you are coming at this from the perspective of thinking that WAR is good and we are trying to make WAR bad instead of Making the other tanks good when In reality nobody because WAR’s think that WAR is good or healthy for the game

Buffing the other 3 tanks to WAR’s level would either

A) functionally destroy the healer role entirely
B) force square to make healers do something else with their time such as debuff cleansing because they are now not needed as healers which would still destroy any content made prior to the time of the buff

I don’t want to nerf WAR because I don’t like WAR, I want to nerf WAR because it’s existence is destabilising 2 entire roles and it is the entire reason for it, unbalancing 8 entire jobs (and basically all 20 of them in old content) is 100% a valid reason for a nerf

This is why I've said in multiple threads, Healer's can focus more on cleansing for a start, then because of the fact all the tanks have sustain the content will be changed to reflect that. I mean we already have some previous dungeons getting reworked like Copperbell Mines and Thousand Maw Totorak, but yes it will take time to get everything reworked but that's just the state of the direction. Again, we have multiple dooms coming in dungeons at this point that require cleansing when before, you were lucky to see it in something like Sunken Temple of Qarn as a stage check. Going back to the content having to challenge all tanks even with their sustain, Healer's in general should be worked more to be like Sage in that offense=healing. They would have more offensive buttons to deal more damage and be active in general, instead of just spamming dia>glare>glare>glare and being bored all day.

I'm tired of the assumption that if all tanks had sustain in general, whether it's similar to WAR or god forbid they make all types of sustain unique but at least usable, that NOTHING in the game would change at all to accomodate that. If you're worried about destroying old content, we already do that by default, try running Satasha's at any point now vs remembering how it was in SB. It was probably even more different in ARR and HW too. That's not even a valid excuse anymore but hey, at least they're trying to fix old content piece by piece so who knows where everything will be in time anyway.

Meanwhile WAR is one of the few tanks that had actual really big issues, like unable to survive tankbusters in ARR, or doing not enough damage in P8S that you have to go GNB or DRK or you're trolling. PLD has it's own issues but I don't see any of them whining about WAR. The only reason WAR gets unbalanced is DRK and rarely GNB it seems want to just try to drag WAR down when they should try to bring themselves up. So by extension, WAR gets buffs when there's actual problems that get addressed while the others don't because they don't address their own stuff enough. WAR is fun, and whether or not you like WAR, asking for nerfs ain't going to go well.

When we have to wait for the bald man to fix DRK's Living Dead by spotlighting how bad it is when he isn't even a DRK main, that's pretty gruesome.

I do firmly believe if we don't do some blanket nerf to self sustain we could very well see groups that start to solo heal content out of the gate.
Its already the optimal way to run dungeons, and while its still currently a meme, the fact that current content like P12S or TOP have been cleared with no healers is a sign of things to come if nothing is done.
And it should be noted the core of those groups were running 2 WARs and PLDs.

If you go look at statistics for the jobs, the sheer gap in healing output between WAR and PLD and DRK/GNB its almost comical. Its clear early on the idea was for DRK/GNB to be the damage tanks and WAR/PLD to be the sustain tanks.
Well 5 patches in those sustain tanks are doing GNB levels of damage yet still bring that much more party utility. Not saying those damage buffs weren't warranted, but using P8S as an example when it was a problem for a week and the devs themselves admitted they failed to test it thoroughly doesn't make it an issue with their output, it makes it an issue with developer attentiveness.

And just to put numbers to this, in Anabaseios WAR has a Heal per second of around 4,500, PLD's is about 3,900.
DRK and GNBs both hover around 3,160. That means WAR doing slightly less than 1.5x of GNB or DRK.

Its kinda sad that this hasn't even been viewed as an issue by the devs imo.
Like WAR leading is to be expected due to its gimmick, but then TBN is DRK's gimmick and that logs as healing as well, and here we are.

I understand entirely that this isn't as big of an issue as damage outputs, and things like raw mitigation are also going to play into this not mattering as much, but then WAR really isn't a slouch on raw mitigation despite claims otherwise, and we're also on 6.5, nearly 6.51 so I really don't think the devs even care about things like this.

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Originally Posted by MikoRemi

This is why I've said in multiple threads, Healer's can focus more on cleansing for a start, then because of the fact all the tanks have sustain the content will be changed to reflect that. I mean we already have some previous dungeons getting reworked like Copperbell Mines and Thousand Maw Totorak, but yes it will take time to get everything reworked but that's just the state of the direction. Again, we have multiple dooms coming in dungeons at this point that require cleansing when before, you were lucky to see it in something like Sunken Temple of Qarn as a stage check. Going back to the content having to challenge all tanks even with their sustain, Healer's in general should be worked more to be like Sage in that offense=healing. They would have more offensive buttons to deal more damage and be active in general, instead of just spamming dia>glare>glare>glare and being bored all day.

I'm tired of the assumption that if all tanks had sustain in general, whether it's similar to WAR or god forbid they make all types of sustain unique but at least usable, that NOTHING in the game would change at all to accomodate that. If you're worried about destroying old content, we already do that by default, try running Satasha's at any point now vs remembering how it was in SB. It was probably even more different in ARR and HW too. That's not even a valid excuse anymore but hey, at least they're trying to fix old content piece by piece so who knows where everything will be in time anyway.

Meanwhile WAR is one of the few tanks that had actual really big issues, like unable to survive tankbusters in ARR, or doing not enough damage in P8S that you have to go GNB or DRK or you're trolling. PLD has it's own issues but I don't see any of them whining about WAR. The only reason WAR gets unbalanced is DRK and rarely GNB it seems want to just try to drag WAR down when they should try to bring themselves up. So by extension, WAR gets buffs when there's actual problems that get addressed while the others don't because they don't address their own stuff enough. WAR is fun, and whether or not you like WAR, asking for nerfs ain't going to go well.

When we have to wait for the bald man to fix DRK's Living Dead by spotlighting how bad it is when he isn't even a DRK main, that's pretty gruesome.

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Restructuring 8 seperate jobs and having to tweak 5 expansions worth of old content because 1 class can’t handle a nerf is a massive problem, nobody thinks that the content wouldn’t change, I am saying that changing all that content rather than just nerfing WAR is a totally unrealistic expectation

Have you ever stopped to consider that healers may not want to be cleansers; I don’t want my entire role restructured because you don’t want your job to be nerfed, that’s essentially what you are asking for. The complete redesign of 7 other jobs to accomodate WAR’s OP self healing

Not sure why you are mentioning WAR having “legit issues”, you don’t hear AST mains going round demanding they be the best at everything and doing the tanks job for them because AST was damn near unplayable in 3.0

Funny because you don't see this being a problem in content like UWU when everyone brings up TOP. Why? There's a Healer LB check just like there's a Caster LB check, and a Melee LB check. Good luck sustaining through those even with massive WAR and PLD sustain. Good luck clearing things like SOS or A12 without Tank LB either among many other pieces of content if you want to see it flipped around also.

Yeah it sure is comical when GNB has bad sustain and DRK has virtually no sustain. How about give it to them? GNB could get some sustain off the cartridge combo so while it's doing its super long opener, it can actually sustain itself throughout the combo without having to worry about misaligning a burst window because they have to press a mit first. DRK instead of getting MP back from Delirium like it used to could just heal 50% of whatever damage it takes. If that's too low then make it higher, but it's better than the Abyssal drain nerf its got. Those are already better then trying to nerf WAR's sustain. Might as well remove the healing from PLD's Holy Spirit combo while were at it. It's only fair to sustain if it's a complete DPS loss right? Why stop there, nerf Bloodbath for those pesky Melee DPS. Oh wait, that didn't matter in P8S anyway because WAR damage was so comically low compared to GNB that even with two damage downs in a group, GNB had 500 more dps to clear in general without breaking a sweat. I don't even care if WAR is the lowest dps for the record, but there shouldn't ever be a situation where you're forced to swap or play like it's Eureka Orthos for an entire fight.

Well the devs would look at it if people wouldn't try to constantly nerf another job instead of bringing their own job up. It's worked so well the past 5 expansions so why not go for a 6th one right?

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Restructuring 8 seperate jobs and having to tweak 5 expansions worth of old content because 1 class can’t handle a nerf is a massive problem, nobody thinks that the content wouldn’t change, I am saying that changing all that content rather than just nerfing WAR is a totally unrealistic expectation

Have you ever stopped to consider that healers may not want to be cleansers; I don’t want my entire role restructured because you don’t want your job to be nerfed, that’s essentially what you are asking for. The complete redesign of 7 other jobs to accomodate WAR’s OP self healing

Not sure why you are mentioning WAR having “legit issues”, you don’t hear AST mains going round demanding they be the best at everything and doing the tanks job for them because AST was damn near unplayable in 3.0

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Yet they're already changing the content as is because things have changed. We don't have TP anymore. We don't have to keep Stone 1/2/3 on our hotbars or worry about attribute points and cross classing, or elemental resistances. Things have already changed, it's not that unrealistic. Especially if all jobs had a universal kit of sorts it can actually be planned around it instead of accommodating for DRK's lack of healing in dungeons, but then having to make sure we don't have a P8S incident again in higher content.

Healers in general would love to have more than three dps buttons that's for sure. I would love to see them be more active with the offensive healing which would also solve the problem of Cure bots. Cleansing is just something they can do that nobody else can, like tanks in general taking much less damage than anyone else, and DPS doing more damage in general than anyone else. They're already doing it with the dooms lately in dungeons, as I'll repeat over and over and over again. Just give them Erase at least on a shorter cooldown for some OGCD cleansing and maybe some more options so it's not too much of a pain. I shouldn't even have to bring this up here though considering this isn't a healing thread but there you go. Also can just use the same argument that WAR's don't want to lose their kit, but it's not valid because it's just so good. Let me know when Raw Intuition can res cheese Lahabrea's doom in UWU, or kill him faster than a Melee LB3, or allow tanks to aoe nuke like a Caster LB3.

If tanks are all fun, healers will have to get changed for the better given their horrible position at the moment. To suggest content wouldn't ever change going forward when an entire classline is getting changed is ridiculous. But hey, if we keep going in circles like this, WAR and PLD I guess will just be the only ones with proper sustain and have to help fix DRK and GNB as well since they would rather tear down others because it's simpler.