The Healer DPS Problem, The Toxicity it incites

The Healer DPS Problem: Toxicity it incites

Y'know, I'm not even going to beat around the bush with this. The title says everything, I'm sitting here doing a dungeon and a healer refuses to even use their off GCD abilities.

Sure the tank was a gunbreaker but that's not an excuse for the healer not to fill the role they chose, this is what brings me to the forums today. Not just for this run, but to address what I feel is becoming a MAJOR problem.

In FFXIV we have all sorts of jobs that fill multiple roles, Tanks/Healers/DPS. Y'know, the "holy trinity" as it were.

All jobs have a little bit of the other roles stuff, healing, dps, etc. Having mitigations and heals on DPS, having DPS and mitigations on healers, having heals and DPS on tanks.

But where the problem comes in? Is when people see the .01% players parses and think "Oh that's all that should be needed."

I legitimately had a combat mentor in the novice network tell me ahem.. "Tank's don't need a healer to even clear ultimate content."

To which I say, congrats I guess? Because that doesn't speak for the average player, the average individual isn't gonna be some person who picks the best of the best tank and gets BiS gear, running only the hardest content you can get into, topping the charts, etc.

No, the average player wants to sit here and enjoy the game. The toxic mentality of "Healers shouldn't have to heal." is a plague that needs to go away.

I honestly just think Healers need more responsibilities and Urgency.
Healers should add Deeps when they can, but they should Ultimately be focused on Healing. The game just needs more time for Healers to be..yknow, Healers.
We also wouldn't be having these "Healers aren't needed" instances, if Tanks wernt designed to self-sustain to pretty much pick up the healers slack.

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

I honestly just think Healers need more responsibilities and Urgency.
Healers should add Deeps when they can, but they should Ultimately be focused on Healing. The game just needs more time for Healers to be..yknow, Healers.
We also wouldn't be having these "Healers aren't needed" instances, if Tanks wernt designed to self-sustain to pretty much pick up the healers slack.

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I mean you're not at all wrong there, they should definitely increase the urgency.. But y'know. Just because tanks can heal? Doesn't mean healers should ignore their role.

Healers are designed for ultimates, everything else doesn't require you to use oGCD healing. This is the amazing game with the best job design out there (sarcasm).

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Originally Posted by JiraTyanu

The Healer DPS Problem: Toxicity it incites

Y'know, I'm not even going to beat around the bush with this. The title says everything, I'm sitting here doing a dungeon and a healer refuses to even use their off GCD abilities.

Sure the tank was a gunbreaker but that's not an excuse for the healer not to fill the role they chose, this is what brings me to the forums today. Not just for this run, but to address what I feel is becoming a MAJOR problem.

In FFXIV we have all sorts of jobs that fill multiple roles, Tanks/Healers/DPS. Y'know, the "holy trinity" as it were.

All jobs have a little bit of the other roles stuff, healing, dps, etc. Having mitigations and heals on DPS, having DPS and mitigations on healers, having heals and DPS on tanks.

But where the problem comes in? Is when people see the .01% players parses and think "Oh that's all that should be needed."

I legitimately had a combat mentor in the novice network tell me ahem.. "Tank's don't need a healer to even clear ultimate content."

To which I say, congrats I guess? Because that doesn't speak for the average player, the average individual isn't gonna be some person who picks the best of the best tank and gets BiS gear, running only the hardest content you can get into, topping the charts, etc.

No, the average player wants to sit here and enjoy the game. The toxic mentality of "Healers shouldn't have to heal." is a plague that needs to go away.

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Wanna know the solution to this?

Stop making normal content braindead easy and design it so people have to PLAY THE GAME to progress.

The fact that you can clear any and all normal content in the game without a healer just speaks volumes to how piss easy everything is in the current state of the game.
Give every single fight a heal check, give every single fight a DPS check.

Then watch how the playerbase improves to compensate for it.

Lazy gameplay breeds lazy players, plain and simple.

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Originally Posted by JiraTyanu

I'm sitting here doing a dungeon and a healer refuses to even use their off GCD abilities.

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Healers not using oGCD heals is also not a healer dps problem.
Not using your completely consequence-free healing that can be weaved between wearing out your 1 key isn't a healer dps problem, it's a "being bad at the game" problem.


Those people have existed since this game's inception and you will never get rid of them, especially not when the job design team caters to exactly the kind of people that never want to improve and will never improve.

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Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE

Give every single fight a heal check, give every single fight a DPS check.

Then watch how the playerbase improves to compensate for it.

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I think they learned a lesson as early as back in Heavensward that making 'regular' content too difficult will not breed better players, it will breed sudden, extreme and vocal pushback against it, and since then didn't try that one again, despite circumstances changing quite a lot by modern day.

On one hand? you do have a lot of toxic Healer parsers... for some reason it's often WHM parsers. Had my encounter with Dice when I don't even do parsing, I loath it... Admire if you can do it? but my god its something else if you get DPS shamed for it. Or yelled at in VC by a WHM parser for having a Non-Kaiten opinion about doing all I can to help another party clear a fight. " What Celesti!? What!? What?! Say it then!? What?! " <- Ironic as I don't talk on VC ever... Like this overfocus on DPS or performance cause healers don't really have much else to do and healing has been made either to easy in most content? or trivialized to the point of irrelevancy. Look at what they done to the Omega Ultimate raid on how its possible to clear it without a healer. And then there's a good group of healers who really wish their Job or role to be improved in either Design or gameplay... and for years nothing is done. Their probably asking the same thing some of us DPS are where they don't necessarily want the skill-floor to increase keeping it player friendly? but skill-ceiling lifted to allow for some skill-expression beyond spamming 1 DPS button...

Stop making most of the content that's casual braindead... or? Stop making the Jobs braindead that we use to do braindead content allowing for truly optional skill-expression? or both, as @Dixie points out I agree... It only encourages players to be lazier. Nothing that encourages players to improve. And once met with an ounce of hardship? they loath it. Ironic... as the MSQ of Endwalker states the opposite, that we should embrace hardships to get the best out of us and overcome adversity. Instead? we just like to be lazy, easier, dumber, more streamlined, every job hollower...

Square designs jobs so that healers aren’t needed in 90% of content then people get angry when healers end up patchwork fixing this problem by playing a gimped caster

You know what we had the design you are asking for, every single dumb suggestion y’all come up with is literally just “coils”, and we dumped it, you know why, because this isn’t an MMO, this is an e thot simulator with a side of braindead combat

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Square designs jobs so that healers aren’t needed in 90% of content then people get angry when healers end up patchwork fixing this problem by playing a gimped caster

You know what we had the design you are asking for, every single dumb suggestion y’all come up with is literally just “coils”, and we dumped it, you know why, because this isn’t an MMO, this is an e thot simulator with a side of braindead combat

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I did expert roulete the other day with 2 tanks and 2 dps the other day and we didn't miss the healers at all, in fact our clear time was no different from when we run it with a healer.

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Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE

Wanna know the solution to this?

Stop making normal content braindead easy and design it so people have to PLAY THE GAME to progress.

The fact that you can clear any and all normal content in the game without a healer just speaks volumes to how piss easy everything is in the current state of the game.
Give every single fight a heal check, give every single fight a DPS check.

Then watch how the playerbase improves to compensate for it.

Lazy gameplay breeds lazy players, plain and simple.

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Instead of solving the wall to wall pulls and how it can destroy innocent healers who are either learning the role or learning a new healer job, square enix keeps designing every dungeon with 2 mobs between bosses. Literally almost every dungeon from level 1 to level 90 is designed the same way, and we call this the best mmorpg ever made? Hahahaha

Look, what xiv needs is new blood, new blood who's ready to create something new; what if the beginning of the Aetherfont dungeon was a 5 minute wave of polar bears which ended with a huge aether-drinking bear (coca cola reference) before you face the first boss? What if after the first boss you had to race, yes, you heard me right, you had to race penguins to the finish line as you make your way to the second boss; everyone in the party would need to outrace all the penguins or the entire party would have to re-race them again. What if after the second boss you had to swim underwater to catch 100 fish to summon the last boss?

I know I went off from your original point, but my point is that square enix is just bland and out of ideas. If they're worried about big pulls and how making squishier tanks would stress out healers, then how about not designing dungeons with big pulls anymore? Instead, introduce new encounters in content/dungeons where you don't have to balance healers and tanks around big pulls.

PS. Yes, I know tanks and healers are designed around ultimates, but one of their big worries is also the toxicity that occurred early on in Stormblood when they made tanks very squishy. I know a lot of you don't remember this or weren't around for this. But that's why White mage had a lot of healing skills during that expansion, they actually tried to make tanks squishy so that healers would start making use of all these oGCDs. But you can all guess what happened after people complained that tanks were too squishy? They gave tanks more hp and more defense. That mentality started the slow decline in battle content.

I still remember tanking and healing the first 2 stormblood expert dungeons and feeling badass healing or tanking all that incoming damage; it took good knowledge of the job you were using.

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Originally Posted by JiraTyanu

The Healer DPS Problem: Toxicity it incites

Y'know, I'm not even going to beat around the bush with this. The title says everything, I'm sitting here doing a dungeon and a healer refuses to even use their off GCD abilities.

Sure the tank was a gunbreaker but that's not an excuse for the healer not to fill the role they chose, this is what brings me to the forums today. Not just for this run, but to address what I feel is becoming a MAJOR problem.

In FFXIV we have all sorts of jobs that fill multiple roles, Tanks/Healers/DPS. Y'know, the "holy trinity" as it were.

All jobs have a little bit of the other roles stuff, healing, dps, etc. Having mitigations and heals on DPS, having DPS and mitigations on healers, having heals and DPS on tanks.

But where the problem comes in? Is when people see the .01% players parses and think "Oh that's all that should be needed."

I legitimately had a combat mentor in the novice network tell me ahem.. "Tank's don't need a healer to even clear ultimate content."

To which I say, congrats I guess? Because that doesn't speak for the average player, the average individual isn't gonna be some person who picks the best of the best tank and gets BiS gear, running only the hardest content you can get into, topping the charts, etc.

No, the average player wants to sit here and enjoy the game. The toxic mentality of "Healers shouldn't have to heal." is a plague that needs to go away.

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Well said.

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Originally Posted by Heroman3003

I think they learned a lesson as early as back in Heavensward that making 'regular' content too difficult will not breed better players, it will breed sudden, extreme and vocal pushback against it, and since then didn't try that one again, despite circumstances changing quite a lot by modern day.

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Actually, it did breed better players. The vocal minority pushed back and yet the game did fine. The problem was actually with the high end content being too much of a difficulty spike.

So no, you're wrong.

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Originally Posted by JiraTyanu

The Healer DPS Problem: Toxicity it incites

Y'know, I'm not even going to beat around the bush with this. The title says everything, I'm sitting here doing a dungeon and a healer refuses to even use their off GCD abilities.

Sure the tank was a gunbreaker but that's not an excuse for the healer not to fill the role they chose, this is what brings me to the forums today. Not just for this run, but to address what I feel is becoming a MAJOR problem.

In FFXIV we have all sorts of jobs that fill multiple roles, Tanks/Healers/DPS. Y'know, the "holy trinity" as it were.

All jobs have a little bit of the other roles stuff, healing, dps, etc. Having mitigations and heals on DPS, having DPS and mitigations on healers, having heals and DPS on tanks.

But where the problem comes in? Is when people see the .01% players parses and think "Oh that's all that should be needed."

I legitimately had a combat mentor in the novice network tell me ahem.. "Tank's don't need a healer to even clear ultimate content."

To which I say, congrats I guess? Because that doesn't speak for the average player, the average individual isn't gonna be some person who picks the best of the best tank and gets BiS gear, running only the hardest content you can get into, topping the charts, etc.

No, the average player wants to sit here and enjoy the game. The toxic mentality of "Healers shouldn't have to heal." is a plague that needs to go away.

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Nobody says : "Healers shouldn't have to heal", what we say is : "Healers should use DPS gcd when ogcd heals are enough to keep the party alive" which represents 90% of the encounters in this game.

There are bad players in both ends of the spectrum : healers which never DPS and healers which never heal. You just encountered the former.

Any toxicity in chat is covered by the TOS; I used the report system a lot during Heavensward, it cleared out the toxic people very quick. That's one thing I'll praise ffxiv about, the in game reporting of bad behavior is very effective.

Like TheNight said; let's not use "toxicity" as a shield, clearly the game's designed to prevent that.

The way we get better healers is by creating content that challenges them to have to use more of their healing skills, so they actually learn how to become good healers. Right now I can cast cure II the entire dungeon while I exercise in real life and I'd be fine.

I heal Mentor Roulette a lot and I usually don't use any GCD heals except to shield them between fights. I don't use it in fights much if at all.

This is completely fine provided the person isn't going to die or doesn't die. Obviously if they die then maybe just GCD heal because something went wrong, such as the tank being too undergeared to not use GCD heals.

I agree that just because someone managed a high-end content clear without a healer doesn't necessarily mean the average person should or will do that, but I suspect their argument with you was using that to make a point about it not mattering in a dungeon.

The lack of randomness is damage taken is what makes both Tanks and Healers into lousy DPS. You only really get to play Healer when people make a lot of mistakes.

In Endgame content ( some EX/Savage/Ultimates) there is a heal DPS check...
and the minimum expected dps you should do as a healer is 15%.. ( due to enrage).
I blame the game design to push that mentality.
in Casual/Normal content none of this really matters..it will just make fight faster/skip stuff.

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Originally Posted by JiraTyanu

The Healer DPS Problem: Toxicity it incites

Y'know, I'm not even going to beat around the bush with this. The title says everything, I'm sitting here doing a dungeon and a healer refuses to even use their off GCD abilities.

Sure the tank was a gunbreaker but that's not an excuse for the healer not to fill the role they chose, this is what brings me to the forums today. Not just for this run, but to address what I feel is becoming a MAJOR problem.

In FFXIV we have all sorts of jobs that fill multiple roles, Tanks/Healers/DPS. Y'know, the "holy trinity" as it were.

All jobs have a little bit of the other roles stuff, healing, dps, etc. Having mitigations and heals on DPS, having DPS and mitigations on healers, having heals and DPS on tanks.

But where the problem comes in? Is when people see the .01% players parses and think "Oh that's all that should be needed."

I legitimately had a combat mentor in the novice network tell me ahem.. "Tank's don't need a healer to even clear ultimate content."

To which I say, congrats I guess? Because that doesn't speak for the average player, the average individual isn't gonna be some person who picks the best of the best tank and gets BiS gear, running only the hardest content you can get into, topping the charts, etc.

No, the average player wants to sit here and enjoy the game. The toxic mentality of "Healers shouldn't have to heal." is a plague that needs to go away.

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Intresting thought but i think you came to some twisted conclusions.
First the mentality of "healer shoudn't heal" does not even exist in the first place. People that say these two things disqualify themself from this discussion and all disskusssion regarding healers:

1. Healers should only heal
2. Healers are DPS and almost never heal

These people are uninformed and very bad at the game or just trolls or both.
Now to what really is there and how you should play and WHY this is not toxic.
First you should play healer pro-activ and re-activ depending on centent and choosen healer. As a healer youre main task is "keep the party alive" after this DPS as much as you can without forgetting the first task BUT NEVER BE IDLE. Thats it. People who argue against this or try to twist this to something toxic just want a " i do nothing but get the reward"-Pass. The APM of FF14 is not that high or complex to justify a only heal or a only dps healer.

If you wanna play a game with more and faster rewards and less input from you as a player, than i recommend something diffrent from FF14 altogether. Nowhere in this "way of playing " is something toxic or negative. Almost as if this is blown out of proportion.... like the thing with the "content creator".

And now to the point why is there more "bad healer's" ? Simple the role has almost no skill ceiling anymore whats so ever and can be played while ACTIVLY WATCHING A MOVIE or reading a book.... heck....writing one, while healing is a possiblity.
This resulted in "easy roulette" aka the "fast pop" by people that don't care and are most of the time not even aware of how the class works or what it does.

The fault is at Yoshida in my opinion and for that reason i think that man should make single player games and stay clear from FF14.

Now to the behavior of people that say:
"..but FFLOGS..." or "Balance Discord said so"
Do you read ??? English do you read it ?
Because this is for SAVAGE AND ULTIMATE not Expert roulette or Alliance raids and the likes. And even then, you need to look out for youre tank and co-healer and the encounter.

This behavior will happen even if this game is to be "candy crushed" and made so simple even a Goldfish can play it. Even than, there will be a "Meta" and people with a gamesense of a peble. So youre conclusion is not only far feteched but also without proof of the existence of said mentality. Some players are just little dirty Kuponuts and deserve to be "Manderville'd".

Considering content is literally designed for healers to not be healing, it’s not hard to see some people saying ‘let’s just play this so I can spam one (maybe 2 if they’re feeling particularly productive) dps ability the entire dungeon and get 3 comms for exceptional contribution’. I mean, it’s fairly easy to evidence too lol. Go into any fight and do high healing but mid/low dps, you’re going to get heavy side-eye from your party and 0 comms. Do absolute minimal healing but high dps? 7 comms you win healers lol. You could solo heal an an entire party of new players through difficult content and carry them across the finish line, and you’re still going to be labelled a shit healer if you don’t maximise dps the entire time. And ultimately, why wouldn’t you maximise dps and just ignore healing? Maximising healing is literally just a case of pressing of pressing one of many, many, many buttons lol.

You can very easily get through an entire dungeon without touching a single heal if you have the right tank, and even if you do need a heal you can just smash one of the many, many, many overwhelmingly powerful oGCD heals to get like the majority of their health back at once.

Honestly I could see them making healers like Bard where the ancillary role (healing/support) becomes entirely automated as part of the main role (dps). Like, healers will just spam the ever-loving fuck out of their one dps spell and every time they do it’ll put the party back to full health. And the worst part? I honestly think a large amount of players would praise such a design.

Truthfully, I don’t even think some players want healers to be healing; they essentially want them to be dps with some extra healing OGCDs cooldowns (nothing that will EVER interrupt their precious dps, of course).

Then you’ve got the even more depressing fact that the game is literally designed for healers to be this way anyway . The devs just refuse to actually make healers full dps with some healing oGCDs because I guess they’d have to admit the last 5-6 years of healer design was just a massive failure lol, and they can’t be having that

Are you saying I have to do more as a healer than just making sure the Duty Finder queue pops? :(

/s

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

Healers not using oGCD heals is also not a healer dps problem.
Not using your completely consequence-free healing that can be weaved between wearing out your 1 key isn't a healer dps problem, it's a "being bad at the game" problem.


Those people have existed since this game's inception and you will never get rid of them, especially not when the job design team caters to exactly the kind of people that never want to improve and will never improve.

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And then you have me, where if I see someone severely underperforming I’m forced to switch to the job they suck on to see if they actually suck or if it’s hard all of a sudden. Spoiler alert: nah they just suck.

the only thing i'm going to be toxic about here is the fact that you decided to center-align your post, op.

but for real; the only tank class i've seen that can properly get away without a healer is a war and even that requires strictly adhering to specific cds being popped in a particular order and the assumption that they know to sometimes hold onto a 100% angy bar just so they can pop bloodwhetting + thrill and max out the heals in conjunction with inner release which ends up just being a dps loss anyway because of said holding onto angy.

now don't get me wrong, i get a sense of satisfaction when we blast through everything in a few minutes but i'm not interested in running at 100% all the time forever always. sometimes i just wanna relax, get my tomes/WT nonsense and not have to hyperfocus on what i'm doing and that's, y'know, fine and always allowed.

it's the same reason why i don't like people who pull for me when i'm tanking lmao. like i'm not a baby, i'm going to pull wall to wall even if my healer sucks because i know how to mitigate but you're killing the vibes and encouraging me to slow down by having to repeatedly save your stupid ass.

if the healer wants to heal, go ahead. less for me to worry about. although i'm gonna speak up if i see you just standing there spamming cure 2 instead of just popping a regen and medica II and occasionally healing me to get blood lilies because that's just silly.

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Originally Posted by Heroman3003

I think they learned a lesson as early as back in Heavensward that making 'regular' content too difficult will not breed better players, it will breed sudden, extreme and vocal pushback against it, and since then didn't try that one again, despite circumstances changing quite a lot by modern day.

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And you let them suffer with it until they realize that its am MMO and they have to learn eventually.

If people dont want to get better, they can enjoy not playing the game. its not like they play it anyway.

You can thank War for this; the tank that set the standard.

When I was on my first job, as a healer, I did notice later on that some tanks needed way more healing than others (first assuming it was the instance or whatever). Then I dared to start leveling a tank job and noticed that healers differed a lot between dungeon runs. I even learned what and how to pull in older instances based on healer performance/behavior - like if a healer gets overwhelmed easily in Snowcloak I did not mass pull the drakes doing AoE as some healers just could not handle such relatively low but high in total damage. I also had cure III spam and healer running nearly on no mana or cure I in Endwalker leveling dungeon.

There are multiple DPS in the group, but usually one or two tanks and healers. If they perform in any way out of the ordinary it will be visible vs the DPS. And players will behave out of the ordinary just because their skills, and intent aren't to optimize performance or the game didn't tell them what and how to do it. The average player isn't watching YT or Twitch and isn't on the forums. We would have millions of posts daily if they did.

The ARR experience is dated and things like freecure, cure 1/2/3 isn't helping either and that's the only starting healer fresh players get. Tanking is a bit more clear I guess. You take an axe, you go smash things with an axe ;)

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Originally Posted by Amnmaat

I know I went off from your original point, but my point is that square enix is just bland and out of ideas. If they're worried about big pulls and how making squishier tanks would stress out healers, then how about not designing dungeons with big pulls anymore? Instead, introduce new encounters in content/dungeons where you don't have to balance healers and tanks around big pulls.

PS. Yes, I know tanks and healers are designed around ultimates, but one of their big worries is also the toxicity that occurred early on in Stormblood when they made tanks very squishy. I know a lot of you don't remember this or weren't around for this. But that's why White mage had a lot of healing skills during that expansion, they actually tried to make tanks squishy so that healers would start making use of all these oGCDs. But you can all guess what happened after people complained that tanks were too squishy? They gave tanks more hp and more defense. That mentality started the slow decline in battle content.

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Tanks being made squishy also resulted in a massive drop off in the number of people willing to play them. Every role should be fun, yeah? Well, being a tank that isn't remotely capable of self-sustaining isn't fun for a lot of people. It would behoove them to look for solutions that don't involve nerfing tanks, like maybe starting with an increase to outgoing group/raid-wide damage so that everyone requires more healing to stay alive.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

like maybe starting with an increase to outgoing group/raid-wide damage so that everyone requires more healing to stay alive.

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This also has the downside that the fight has to allow for the healer to stand still and cast while their design is heavy on movement and positioning so you are left with using casted healing spells in very specific parts of the fight while doing glare-bot or oGCD outside of them.

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Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE

The fact that you can clear any and all normal content in the game without a healer just speaks volumes to how piss easy everything is in the current state of the game.

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You can clear a lot of the games content barely pressing any buttons at all.. wasn't that long ago had that video circulating where players literally auto attacked there way through content.

Which leads to this.

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Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE

Lazy gameplay breeds lazy players, plain and simple.

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When you can clear content without trying. What's the point in trying.

A lot of the content this game has its actually harder to fail than suceed

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Tanks being made squishy also resulted in a massive drop off in the number of people willing to play them. Every role should be fun, yeah? Well, being a tank that isn't remotely capable of self-sustaining isn't fun for a lot of people. It would behoove them to look for solutions that don't involve nerfing tanks, like maybe starting with an increase to outgoing group/raid-wide damage so that everyone requires more healing to stay alive.

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I like Guild Wars 2's solution; enemies and bosses in that game target whoever it wants, while the "tank" specs can still keep the boss focused on them, but not indefinitely. Also, in GW2 tanks are not these sponges which the boss can't break through.

GW2 handles it how square enix tried to handle it at start of Stormblood; make the tanks squishy. Tanks laugh at damage in most situations. Tank busters? More like tank tickle. Until we're willing to bring tanks down from being sponges and create a better mechanical dynamic with them they will all be boring 123 to fell cleave clones. The fact that all tanks have to do in xiv is press 1 button to shield themselves is laughable. Say what you want about Dark knight and Blackest night, but that's how tanking in xiv should work, outside of tank mechanics like Blackest night tanks should be squishy. Outside of Bloodwhetting War should be taking a pummeling, make those damn healers heal, protect, and take care of them outside of it.

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Originally Posted by JiraTyanu

[CENTER]The Healer DPS Problem: Toxicity it incites

Y'know, I'm not even going to beat around the bush with this. The title says everything, I'm sitting here doing a dungeon and a healer refuses to even use their off GCD abilities.

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Are you certain that healer was aware they have those oGCD abilities outside of you saying so?

My own experience with a relative who started playing the game last year (I didn't find out until several months later) - if the game didn't place an ability on their first hotbar (they hid the second one to reduce screen clutter since it was empty when they first created the character), they didn't know the ability existed. They thought the game would put all the abilities they needed onto the hotbar.

The game tutorial does a decent job of explaining things to players with previous RPG experience but those without are left in the dark. Opening the Playguide doesn't help - there is no Class Guide, only a Job Guide. It has a list of jobs that the new player can't play because they're not level 30 yet.

They need to add a Class Guide to the Playguide for new players that lists the classes they can play and how they relate to jobs. Even the job guides aren't that helpful because you have to scroll down through the wall of PvE and PvP actions before you get a "these are your basic combos and this is the information on your job gauge". And that's it.

So if the answer was the player didn't know those oGCDs even exist, I'm not surprised. Rather than expect every player to know what they're doing (regardless of level since boosts are a thing), try to be polite and helpful. As players, we're going to be better teachers for new players than any written guide SE creates.

If the player doesn't want the help and they're preventing the party from completing the duty, then vote to kick.

WAR pretty much set the dungeon standard. If you are a healer and you have a warrior in your party you wont do a single GCD heal for them or even a OGCD heal for them because their self healing is that strong.

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Originally Posted by Derio

WAR pretty much set the dungeon standard. If you are a healer and you have a warrior in your party you wont do a single GCD heal for them or even a OGCD heal for them because their self healing is that strong.

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It's so bad from a Healer POV that I forgot I sometimes have to heal at times lol.

Oh are we pretending that healers who deal damage because it's the thing that skilled healers do and is intrinsic to their skill ceiling and healers that deal damage and forget to heal because they're terrible at healing are the same people again?

Never change, FFXIV community. HeALeRs shOULd hEaL onLy, yet again, every time, from people who don't play healers and aren't interested in their gameplay loop. Or from people who *do* play healers and aren't particularly skilled at them, so they like to project their lack of skill onto people who are actually good at healing, because someone maximizing their throughput and occasionally slipping up is totally worse at the game than Sylphie Curespammer. :eyeroll:

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Oh are we pretending that healers who deal damage because it's the thing that skilled healers do and is intrinsic to their skill ceiling and healers that deal damage and forget to heal because they're terrible at healing are the same people again?

Never change, FFXIV community. HeALeRs shOULd hEaL onLy, yet again, every time, from people who don't play healers and aren't interested in their gameplay loop. Or from people who *do* play healers and aren't particularly skilled at them, so they like to project their lack of skill onto people who are actually good at healing, because someone maximizing their throughput and occasionally slipping up is totally worse at the game than Sylphie Curespammer. :eyeroll:

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As someone who just posted above you that I at times (rarely) forget to heal - it's not because of a lack of skill. It's just because after glare-botting for 20 minutes I'm so disinterested in the encounter design and what I'm doing as a healer I get zoned out. Usually a benediction when this happens is fine.

Healing in XIV is unfortunately a shadow of how fun it could be.

Unfortunately OP, when I read through your post, I had to wonder if the toxicity in question isn't actually being generated more by your post, certainly by its title and the response you likely expected to generate as a consequence - and not by its content?


Y'know, I'm not even going to beat around the bush with this. The title says everything, I'm sitting here doing a dungeon and a healer refuses to even use their off GCD abilities. To be clear, this was a single experience? Did anyone talk to them? Was anyone dying? Did the group wipe? Did anyone offer to help them?

Sure the tank was a gunbreaker but that's not an excuse for the healer not to fill the role they chose, this is what brings me to the forums today. Not just for this run, but to address what I feel is becoming a MAJOR problem.

In FFXIV we have all sorts of jobs that fill multiple roles, Tanks/Healers/DPS. Y'know, the "holy trinity" as it were.

All jobs have a little bit of the other roles stuff, healing, dps, etc. Having mitigations and heals on DPS, having DPS and mitigations on healers, having heals and DPS on tanks.

But where the problem comes in? Is when people see the .01% players parses and think "Oh that's all that should be needed." Aren't you making an assumption here, or is there something you aren't telling us, because I don't see where this is coming from a single healer?

I legitimately had a combat mentor in the novice network tell me ahem.. "Tank's don't need a healer to even clear ultimate content." Technically, that's true, it has been done- so how would this be toxic? I don't understand this at all, you've lost me here.

To which I say, congrats I guess? Because that doesn't speak for the average player, the average individual isn't gonna be some person who picks the best of the best tank and gets BiS gear, running only the hardest content you can get into, topping the charts, etc. How did we go from a healer who wasn't using their OGCD heals to a BiS tank ( by the way a sizable percentage of the player population does Extreme content and harder, often on more than one job). Again I don't see where any toxicity is involved here.

No, the average player wants to sit here and enjoy the game. The toxic mentality of "Healers shouldn't have to heal." is a plague that needs to go away. I'm sorry, perhaps you thought this last line was some definitive argument but every player wants to enjoy the game, I doubt you will find anyone to disagree with you- nothing new to see here. I also would dispute the "healers shouldn't have to heal" statement- you've provided nothing to go on except what could (possibly) be a new healer/someone's alt or (we don't know). Do healers make mistakes? Sure they do, and if they are fortunate someone is able to provide much more constructive feedback so that they are willing to join as a better healer in future.

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Originally Posted by JiraTyanu

Y'know, I'm not even going to beat around the bush with this. The title says everything, I'm sitting here doing a dungeon and a healer refuses to even use their off GCD abilities.

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If the healer wasn't using their off GCD abilities, that's a skill issue, not a DPS issue.

A healer that is actually efficiently maximising their damage is going to be using MORE oGCDs, not less. There's absolutely zero need to take any risks with a tank's HP in measly dungeon content to get a 90%+ log. Don't get the two issues confused here. That healer was just bad.

Perhaps this would be less of a problem if 'healing' in dungeons actually needed healers to pay some attention to the screen rather than just mindlessly doing the same s**t pull after a pull.

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Originally Posted by Amnmaat

ay what you want about Dark knight and Blackest night, but that's how tanking in xiv should work, outside of tank mechanics like Blackest night tanks should be squishy. Outside of Bloodwhetting War should be taking a pummeling, make those damn healers heal, protect, and take care of them outside of it.

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I.... what? Bro, tanks that don't use their cooldowns right get absolutely stomped into the ground already. Besides that, being squishy as a tank is decidedly unfun. Why do you think their numbers dropped off after their survivability took that huge hit? Targeting tanks with nerfs is not the way to make the game engaging for healers. There are plenty of other options available that won't result in another tank shortage.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

I.... what? Bro, tanks that don't use their cooldowns right get absolutely stomped into the ground already. Besides that, being squishy as a tank is decidedly unfun. Why do you think their numbers dropped off after their survivability took that huge hit? Targeting tanks with nerfs is not the way to make the game engaging for healers. There are plenty of other options available that won't result in another tank shortage.

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I would like you to consider the flip side of the coin - lying dead on the ground while your party continues the without you, the healer because you died to a mechanic, but they don't really need you. Or forms a party but asks you to join as a DPS because a 'healer will only slow this down" and you have to agree that they're right- but really - you would prefer to heal and DPS- NOT have the tank do it for you.

Now, you may say that I'm exaggerating, perhaps so. However I would say that the game has way overcompensated for the 'squishy tank" issue. The time is over due to look at the other options that allow all roles to have an engaging experience, and part of that for me means that each role will have to rely to some degree (depending on difficulty perhaps) on the other roles in group content. No one role should carry, no one role should be excluded from content design.

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

I would like you to consider the flip side of the coin - lying dead on the ground while your party continues the without you, the healer because you died to a mechanic, but they don't really need you. Or forms a party but asks you to join as a DPS because a 'healer will only slow this down" and you have to agree that they're right- but really - you would prefer to heal and DPS- NOT have the tank do it for you.

Now, you may say that I'm exaggerating, perhaps so. However I would say that the game has way overcompensated for the 'squishy tank" issue. The time is over due to look at the other options that allow all roles to have an engaging experience, and part of that for me means that each role will have to rely to some degree (depending on difficulty perhaps) on the other roles in group content. No one role should carry, no one role should be excluded from content design.

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Its not an exaggeration when you can 100% complete any EW boss fight without a healer.

WAR can 100% do it 0 problems.
Pretty sure PLD can.
I KNOW GNB can cause I've done it, and I've even done it on Shb bosses.
DRK is the only iffy one and even then I think they could do it.

Tanks should have decent survivability, yes. They shouldn't straight up invalidate a role with it.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Oh are we pretending that healers who deal damage because it's the thing that skilled healers do and is intrinsic to their skill ceiling and healers that deal damage and forget to heal because they're terrible at healing are the same people again?

Never change, FFXIV community. HeALeRs shOULd hEaL onLy, yet again, every time, from people who don't play healers and aren't interested in their gameplay loop. Or from people who *do* play healers and aren't particularly skilled at them, so they like to project their lack of skill onto people who are actually good at healing, because someone maximizing their throughput and occasionally slipping up is totally worse at the game than Sylphie Curespammer. :eyeroll:

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