I was almost in the mood to play FF14 again

But then I remembered SAM doesn't have Kaiten any more, so the mood disappeared and I played a different game instead.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

But then I remembered SAM doesn't have Kaiten any more, so the mood disappeared and I played a different game instead.

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Genuine question, from someone who decided to level SAM just recently in a post-Kaiten world, why exactly people miss it so much? I ask that because right now, the job's rotation feels really good and engaging. Idk, I'd probably join the chorus if I tried it before.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

Genuine question, from someone who decided to level SAM just recently in a post-Kaiten world, why exactly people miss it so much? I ask that because right now, the job's rotation feels really good and engaging. Idk, I'd probably join the chorus if I tried it before.

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Before Kaiten being Taiken away, SAM had 3 spenders.
SQEX just removed one of them and so you just spam shinten and Sen'ei is garanteed with Ikishoten.

Basically most uses of kaiten were simply replaced with uses of Shinten.

I'm not an expert of SAM, but this basically made SAM players spam Shinten during burst phases where before you had kenki used for kaitening every midare.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

Genuine question, from someone who decided to level SAM just recently in a post-Kaiten world, why exactly people miss it so much? I ask that because right now, the job's rotation feels really good and engaging. Idk, I'd probably join the chorus if I tried it before.

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Whilst I was never someone who loved SAM, I do know of 2 main reasons why people miss it:

The animation. It was just cool using this action to power up your next Iaijutsu.

For the more technical reason, Kaiten was used before all Iaijutsus, so you needed to manage your Kenki so make sure you had enough to power them up. If you also add in Senei also requiring a different amount of Kenki, it just all built into a gauge that wasn't just build and spend in set increments for everything.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

Genuine question, from someone who decided to level SAM just recently in a post-Kaiten world, why exactly people miss it so much? I ask that because right now, the job's rotation feels really good and engaging. Idk, I'd probably join the chorus if I tried it before.

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Both reasons above are one of them main ones. 3rd would be probably that all 3 of devs' excuses for removal make no sense, which just leaves us with a bitter taste, since it's removal didn't fix anything at all.

Animation and buildup was satisfying, but if we want to focus more on the gameplay, Shinten spam is terrible game design. Because they removed 2nd most prominent spender of Kenki, Shinten accounts to roughly 20% of all actions you do. This means that on average, every 5th skill you do is Shinten, which is just insane. Especially since Shinten is just very bland and uninteresting oGCD, yet for some reason, you use it more frequently than even Hakaze, which should be the most basic and frequent ability, since it's first part of all 3 combos.

This is some random log from p10s, 78 parse:
https://i.imgur.com/ytG5i0A.png

Genius, Last thread was pretending to be about Shoha II but it was actually a Kaiten thread..
This time the title doesn't even contain any information hinting at it even being a SAM thread, let alone another Kaiten thread, you guys sure are devious.

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Originally Posted by kayll

Genius, Last thread was pretending to be about Shoha II but it was actually a Kaiten thread..
This time the title doesn't even contain any information hinting at it even being a SAM thread, let alone another Kaiten thread, you guys sure are devious.

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It's been 1.5 years, being straightforward didn't work, now we do all the underhanded tactics. Kinda like jehovah's witness or similar sects, except in our case, we are not a sect, our God and saviour Kaiten is real and he will return once again in full glory.

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Originally Posted by Deo14

Both reasons above are one of them main ones. 3rd would be probably that all 3 of devs' excuses for removal make no sense, which just leaves us with a bitter taste, since it's removal didn't fix anything at all.

Animation and buildup was satisfying, but if we want to focus more on the gameplay, Shinten spam is terrible game design. Because they removed 2nd most prominent spender of Kenki, Shinten accounts to roughly 20% of all actions you do. This means that on average, every 5th skill you do is Shinten, which is just insane. Especially since Shinten is just very bland and uninteresting oGCD, yet for some reason, you use it more frequently than even Hakaze, which should be the most basic and frequent ability, since it's first part of all 3 combos.

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If the issue is just "Shinten is used too much" then what needs to happen is a review of Kenki economy, including how much is gained through combos, and how much is spent via skills.
We already have SIX Kenki spenders, it's too much already.
I would say that Guren and Senei need to have their cooldowns and potencies reduced so that you're replacing more Shintens with Seneis. (halve each for each would be a decent start, still aligns with 2 minute window)
Then reduce some of the Kenki gains on weaponskills so that you're not capping on Kenki so fast. Have all weaponskills provide only 5 Kenki (other than Enpi at 10), then maybe boost Hagakure to 15 Kenki per Sen instead of 10 to compensate, and actually give Hagakure some potential use.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

If the issue is just "Shinten is used too much" then what needs to happen is a review of Kenki economy, including how much is gained through combos, and how much is spent via skills.
We already have SIX Kenki spenders, it's too much already.
I would say that Guren and Senei need to have their cooldowns and potencies reduced so that you're replacing more Shintens with Seneis. (halve each for each would be a decent start, still aligns with 2 minute window)
Then reduce some of the Kenki gains on weaponskills so that you're not capping on Kenki so fast. Have all weaponskills provide only 5 Kenki (other than Enpi at 10), then maybe boost Hagakure to 15 Kenki per Sen instead of 10 to compensate, and actually give Hagakure some potential use.

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Kenki economy was already managed by Kaiten. Nerfing Kenki generation is solution, but by far not the best one. This would also need adjustments of the rest of the Kenki spenders, because if you needed to do some 2-3 GCDs to get enough Kenki for single Gyuten/Yaten, then that's a problem. You also generate less Kenki in 52-61, so it's this kind of nice gradual step up, but if you wanted to keep this, then the Kenki you generate in this level range would be abysmally low. This is not where potential complications end, the way you pool Kenki would be affected, you would need to completely recalculate potencies for SAM, if all GCDs only gave 5 Kenki, then it would be boring but also there would be no Yukikaze optimization. Long story short, this would be so much more complicated with worse result then just going back to what we know worked well and was more interesting, which is Kaiten.

Those 6 Kenki spenders are not that much in practice.
Kyuten is just AoE Shinten.
Guren is just AoE Senei. You use this only once every 2 minutes, with Kenki generated by Ikishoten.
Gyoten is gap closer, Yaten backstep, they're situational.

So realistically, you spend 90%+ Kenki on Shinten. Probably, I'm not doing the math, but even if it was 70% or similar, that's still way too much.

Senei with 1m CD wouldn't change much, look at the log I sent above, you do over 8 Shintens per minute and 0.5 Senei, so it will just be 7 and 1 instead. With pre-EW 50 Kenki Senei it would be slightly better with 6 and 1, but even that is still terrible.

As for Hagakure - that's possibly one of the most important SAM skills to make your rotation go smooth and makes SAM one of few jobs that can choose between 3 vastly different GCD speed, without any significant modifications to your rotation, I really don't know how did you find out it has no use.

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Originally Posted by Deo14

As for Hagakure - that's possibly one of the most important SAM skills to make your rotation go smooth and makes SAM one of few jobs that can choose between 3 vastly different GCD speed, without any significant modifications to your rotation, I really don't know how did you find out it has no use.

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Why would you ever sacrifice a Midari for another Shinten?
Maybe for a Senei, but there's no shortage of Kenki, is there...

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Originally Posted by Mithron

But then I remembered SAM doesn't have Kaiten any more, so the mood disappeared and I played a different game instead.

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Of all reasons not to play FF14, that is one of the sillier ones.
What I don't understand is why you felt the need to tell us about it.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Why would you ever sacrifice a Midari for another Shinten?
Maybe for a Senei, but there's no shortage of Kenki, is there...

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You don't sacrifice a whole Midare, you sacrifice a seal, which you obtained from either your 2 combo or your 3 combo. By delaying your rotation, it enables you to better line up the 2 minute window to get the most damage possible in the timeframe. AKA, lose some damage early to gain later.

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

Of all reasons not to play FF14, that is one of the sillier ones.
What I don't understand is why you felt the need to tell us about it.

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So is it stupid that your job, most likely main, got neutered overnight because they woke up crooked? So is it silly that with unanimous complaints, designers and devs have blatantly ignored community feedback? Maybe he's one of the least stupid, maybe.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

You don't sacrifice a whole Midare, you sacrifice a seal, which you obtained from either your 2 combo or your 3 combo. By delaying your rotation, it enables you to better line up the 2 minute window to get the most damage possible in the timeframe. AKA, lose some damage early to gain later.

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There's serious overlap of people who don't think Kaiten was a big deal, and people who don't even know how to play SAM.

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Originally Posted by Deo14

[...]This is some random log from p10s, 78 parse:
https://i.imgur.com/ytG5i0A.png

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Disgusting.

I knew there would be a spike in number of Shintens used after Kaiten removal but since I almost never touch it anymore post 6.1, I didn't realize it's THAT many now.

When I go back into Eureka/Bozja to play SAM a couple of days ago, my fingers instinctively tried to hit my "Kaiten" hotkey, then I'm like "Right, of course :("

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Disgusting.

I knew there would be a spike in number of Shintens used after Kaiten removal but since I almost never touch it anymore post 6.1, I didn't realize it's THAT many now.

When I go back into Eureka/Bozja to play SAM a couple of days ago, my fingers instinctively tried to hit my "Kaiten" hotkey, then I'm like "Right, of course :("

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It's not quite creeping into the territory of 60+% Dosis, Glare, Malefic, Broil spam that healers have, but it sure is doing it's best impression of that atrocious design.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Disgusting.

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I know...that Kyuten ruins the whole thing.

I can understand why people miss Kaiten and I do hope that they add it in somehow with 7.0, though I still think the job is worthy and fun without it. Was surpised by how much I enjoyed it when I finally got it to 90 recently.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

Genuine question, from someone who decided to level SAM just recently in a post-Kaiten world, why exactly people miss it so much? I ask that because right now, the job's rotation feels really good and engaging. Idk, I'd probably join the chorus if I tried it before.

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Partly a meme, partly rose-tinted goggles, partly some people just like to have something to complain about, and partly some people just liked it.

And I don't mean that to be derisive - some people genuinely liked it - but mechanically, it was like PLD having Fight of Flight and Requiescat. You never used the second without the first, so it didn't bring anything to the table. It also made balance and the auto crit stuff kind of weird and devalued crit and stuff (this was before they implemented the "auto-crit/direct hit abilities do more damage based on crit/direct hit effects" thing, which would have helped with that). It was slightly more involved since it was tied to pooling a resource, but in practice, it was kind of bland in the "you always use these together, why have a second button?" way.

But some people really really liked it. I've also seen very rational and sober minded theorycrafters and guide makers say that it really wasn't all that and explain why they thought so. So both sides have a decent argument to make. (It's funny, I still haven't leveled SAM...but I still have the grayed out version on my bar for posterity. :D)

You're right, though, that SAM feels very good right now. If you never played with Kaiten and you do like current SAM, don't feel like you have to hate it or should "join the chorus", just keep loving the thing you love. Nothing wrong with that. : )

EDIT:

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Originally Posted by Ggwppino

So is it stupid that your job, most likely main, got neutered overnight because they woke up crooked? So is it silly that with unanimous complaints, designers and devs have blatantly ignored community feedback? Maybe he's one of the least stupid, maybe.

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Believe it or not, the complaints are not unanimous.

Again, there are theory crafters, guide makers, etc that can give reasoned arguments for why Kaiten's removal was not a bad thing/was a good thing. On other forums (not this one for some reason), the position is not unanimous. Reddit, for example, but r/ffxiv and r/ffxivdiscussion (which is more technically minded people discussing mechanics and stuff) has dissent against Kaiten being a good ability.

I'm not saying one way or the other - both sides, imo, have good arguments - but I am saying complaints are not unanimous.

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Oh, and don't get me wrong, I don't know that removing Kaiten WAS a good idea. I'm just pointing out there is more discussion/disagreement on the topic than skimming this forum would suggest.

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Originally Posted by kayll

Genius, Last thread was pretending to be about Shoha II but it was actually a Kaiten thread..
This time the title doesn't even contain any information hinting at it even being a SAM thread, let alone another Kaiten thread, you guys sure are devious.

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We learned from SE/Devs and Co. Also what you think of my signature <3

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Why would you ever sacrifice a Midari for another Shinten?
Maybe for a Senei, but there's no shortage of Kenki, is there...

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Now, only for indirect reasons, and it's generally a would-be too-early Higan or a useless Tenka that's being "sacrificed" by Hagakure in order to keep one's burst loop synced to raid buffs.


That said, when it was a DPS increase to do so (in Stormblood), you would. Midare didn't offer as much damage over SAM's appgcd at the time as would 2.4 Shinten casts. Simple as that.

And that was, despite the clunkiness of Tsubame-Gaeshi per 60s relative to Hagakure per 40s as your rotational burst loop, part of why many preferred Shadowbringers SAM over Stormblood SAM: having an infrequent extra Iaijutsu felt more "Samurai" to most than... more Shinten spam, even if the extra mobility and APM Hagakure offered at the time was well liked (and that mechanic allowed one up to 3 GCDs of flex, instead of 0 GCDs, still giving reason to optimize one's loop without making it absurdly punishing to hit a ping spike at the wrong moment).


Now remove the ability to buff Iaijutsu casts by 50%, replacing it with Shinten spam, and it gets obvious why many wouldn't be a fan of that idea.)

EDIT:

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Originally Posted by kayll

EW spoiled the melee players, If you don't roll out the red carpet for them they'll make a lot of noise.
I suggest you make a new Kaiten thread to make amends and they may just deign to forgive you for your sleight against them.

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You do realize the ones wanting Kaiten back are also usually the ones pushing for more "Melee"-like gameplay, such as tighter boss hitboxes, harder uptime management, conal AoEs that thereby require movement into and out of mob packs, etc., right?

While a buff to gameplay, it's objectively more effort for no increase in reward.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

[Bunch of nonsense, justifying change that commnuity pretty much unanimously disagrees with, and devs have yet to respond to us, after they specifically asked for feedback]

(It's funny, I still haven't leveled SAM...but I still have the grayed out version on my bar for posterity. :D)

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Wow, why does this not surprise me.

Here, some research for you, so you can get yourself informed:
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...Kaiten-removal
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ot_be_removed/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIHj-1_Yn1U
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ing_kaiten_to/

Here's something so you won't say I'm nitpicking stuff:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ten_that_much/

Here's my thread, you can read through it to find out that Kaiten removal barely, if even, affected APM in burst (nullifying their action bloat excuse), they have not yet added anything to replace it (nullifying their future proofing excuse) and you can get rid of 4 much lower priority buttons if you want to combat this fictional button bloat:
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...6.1-SAM-rework

Quote from my thread, regarding volume of JP forum feedback:

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Back in july 2022 (6 months after rework) I counted pages on JP's SAM megathread (they use chaotic megathreads for some reason). At the time, thread had 325 pages worth of discussion. Meanwhile, from SAM's release in SB (June 2017) to 6.1, there was just 170 pages. That means 170 pages in 4.5 years vs 155 pages in just half a year after 6.1 release. I think it's safe to say that even JP community wasn't excited about rework.

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These are just random examples, I recommend you looking around the internet to get better idea of the situation. I'm looking forward to your reply where you'll actually give me link to those "guide makers" and "theory crafters" who are fine with it, even though I'm very skeptical if job design should be directed by someone who's hobby is min-maxing everything, because that often means minimizing fun in the process.

Also, what the hell are you talking about with the crit stuff? Kaiten added 50% potency to next weapon skill for 20 Kenki, that's all, it didn't make it guaranteed crit. The ruined synergy was in 6.1 patch, because they implemented 4 guaranteed crits for SAM in that same patch (there was 20+ changes in that patch btw), before they even made the compensation for it in 6.2, which is yet another issue caused by 6.1 SAM rework.

I highly recommend you reading my thread, I've read through many of your essays, do me a favour and read mine.

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Originally Posted by Deo14

[Bunch of nonsense to a person correctly identifying the several issues going on and the view of the community as a whole and that the community as a whole is not in unanimous agreement.]

[Wants Kaiten back]

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Wow, why does this not surprise me?
(It does seem to be a thing where those wanting Kaiten back irrationally respond to any post that isn't in full agreement and don't brook any disagreement and look for any way possible to discredit someone pointing out they are not a 100% complete and unanimous majority...)

I didn't say no one anywhere else than here was complaining about Kaiten. I said the view is not universal.

Universal means 100% agreement with no disagreement. The only thing, literally the only thing, I'm harping on here is the insistence that it is universal.

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If you're going to offer a rebuttal - and insult a person - at least get their argument right, otherwise you're rebutting a straw man, not an argument. And ad hominem isn't relevant. Me not playing SAM has no relevance to my ability to read internet forums and see a non-unanimous position isn't unanimous.

EDIT: Hell, even in the first thread you linked on Reddit, the OP lists several complaints that I pointed out, an several of the responses are LITERALLY making the arguments I presented - that people miss the animation, that some people don't mind the removal they just wanted something to replace it, etc.

At least read your own sources that disprove you and support my position.

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I get it's easy to be super emotional about Kaiten. That doesn't mean you can or should insult or attack people, nor that you should ignore facts and reality.

The MAJORITY seem to want Kaiten back - did I say otherwise?

But it's not unanimous, and there are more than one reason, and there are well thought out counters to it having been removed. /end

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Wow, why does this not surprise me?
(It does seem to be a thing where those wanting Kaiten back irrationally respond to any post that isn't in full agreement and don't brook any disagreement and look for any way possible to discredit someone pointing out they are not a 100% complete and unanimous majority...)

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EW spoiled the melee players, If you don't roll out the red carpet for them they'll make a lot of noise.
I suggest you make a new Kaiten thread to make amends and they may just deign to forgive you for your sleight against them.

Hm, interesting reads about Kaiten... With that being said, where you all think that SAM will grow towards in DT?

Even without Kaiten, or thinking about it without the idea of what it used to do (since I didn't experience it), SAM's flow feels quite complete. Is there anything to be added without causing actual bloat?

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Originally Posted by Renathras

But it's not unanimous, and there are more than one reason, and there are well thought out counters to it having been removed. /end

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Genuinely curious, could you quote some of these counters? Or are you saying counters in support of it being a bad idea it was removed? Almost every single discussion regarding kaiten I've seen has been against it's removal, or at least pointing out how its removal does nothing of substance. The few posts/comments I have seen that are for kaiten removal were pretty obvious rage bait.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Wow, why does this not surprise me?
(It does seem to be a thing where those wanting Kaiten back irrationally respond to any post that isn't in full agreement and don't brook any disagreement and look for any way possible to discredit someone pointing out they are not a 100% complete and unanimous majority...)

I didn't say no one anywhere else than here was complaining about Kaiten. I said the view is not universal.

Universal means 100% agreement with no disagreement. The only thing, literally the only thing, I'm harping on here is the insistence that it is universal.

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If you're going to offer a rebuttal - and insult a person - at least get their argument right, otherwise you're rebutting a straw man, not an argument. And ad hominem isn't relevant. Me not playing SAM has no relevance to my ability to read internet forums and see a non-unanimous position isn't unanimous.

EDIT: Hell, even in the first thread you linked on Reddit, the OP lists several complaints that I pointed out, an several of the responses are LITERALLY making the arguments I presented - that people miss the animation, that some people don't mind the removal they just wanted something to replace it, etc.

At least read your own sources that disprove you and support my position.

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I get it's easy to be super emotional about Kaiten. That doesn't mean you can or should insult or attack people, nor that you should ignore facts and reality.

The MAJORITY seem to want Kaiten back - did I say otherwise?

But it's not unanimous, and there are more than one reason, and there are well thought out counters to it having been removed. /end

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Could you start engaging discussions with actual arguments, instead of moving goalposts wherever you desire with stuff like ""Akshually, I meant that 100% of people doesn't agree with it". Didn't we already clarified in the healer thread that it is given that no community ever 100% agrees with anything?

But who am I kidding, you don't have any arguments, you don't even have SAM leveled after all, what's the point of your input in this matter?

And most importantly, where are the links to your theory crafters' opinion you spoke of? I was hoping to get some good chuckle from reading that. Could you at least once give source to have some credibility? You still didn't give me that data about that 1-2M/2-4M players from a month ago, after I went through all the trouble giving all the links and sources to you.

So please, link me those "well thought out counters to it having been removed" you speak of.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

Hm, interesting reads about Kaiten... With that being said, where you all think that SAM will grow towards in DT?

Even without Kaiten, or thinking about it without the idea of what it used to do (since I didn't experience it), SAM's flow feels quite complete. Is there anything to be added without causing actual bloat?

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I don't have big hopes, after all both 2 additions of active skills in EW were bloat (Shoha 2 and Ogi). It will be probably some QoL. EW gave us 2nd Meikyo stack, which made freestyle SAM legitimate playstyle, so my fear is that next in the line of QoL changes are instacasted Iaijutsu, and I'm getting disgusted just thinking about that. After that, fancy skill at capstone, animation upgrade and another active skill, hopefully something that has low CD and uses Kenki, so the Shinten spam stops.

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Originally Posted by Deo14

which made freestyle SAM legitimate playstyle, so my fear is that next in the line of QoL changes are instacasted Iaijutsu, and I'm getting disgusted just thinking about that. After that, fancy skill at capstone, animation upgrade and another active skill, hopefully something that has low CD and uses Kenki, so the Shinten spam stops.

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Oh? What is 'freestyle' play? I didn't see this in any of the lv90 guides, but perhaps is just nomenclature.

Yes, I know it's sad, and I Main SAM. You know, at some point you have to mourn and move on, that's happiness!

Kaiten's absence won't stop me thinking I'm Kenshin.
Especially with :

Hissatsu: Seinei
Ogi Namikiri -> Kaeshi: Namikiri
Midare Setsugekka -> Kaeshi: Setsugekka
And ofc Meditate

Of course, if you're too young, you won't know the reference and at worst, you'll have the remake on the way.
So you can carry on crying over Kaiten like when you promise a kid chocolate and then take it back.

On that note, I'm going back, it's going to be a while in the official forum complaints office.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

Oh? What is 'freestyle' play? I didn't see this in any of the lv90 guides, but perhaps is just nomenclature.

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We used to have only single stack of Tsubame and Meikyo, which made it harder to align everyrthing, and also because you got buffs only from 2nd parts of Kasha/Gekko combos, simply said, rotation used to be much more strict in the past. Nowadays, you just need to remember few things to do and their priority and you can just wing it/freestyle it. This might be shocking, but SAM was often considered hard, some people went as far as comparing it to BLM. Which is huge contrast to today's "anything goes" SAM.

Freestyle samurai seems to originate from one singular person, then it got memed on and the legend of freestyle samurai started. It's very hyperbolical example of someone who was really just mashing his button as he wanted, but difficulty of playing SAM has definitely lowered significantly since that time, so we are getting closer and closer to the legendary freestyle samurai. Long story short, my comment was just a hyperbole.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

But then I remembered SAM doesn't have Kaiten any more, so the mood disappeared and I played a different game instead.

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Good, I'm happy kaiten is gone. Stop crying about your crit button girls don't think it's cool lol

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Originally Posted by Battler-Ushiromiya

Good, I'm happy kaiten is gone. Stop crying about your crit button girls don't think it's cool lol

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..........

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Originally Posted by Spigg

The few posts/comments I have seen that are for kaiten removal were pretty obvious rage bait.

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Originally Posted by Deo14

Freestyle samurai seems to originate from one singular person, then it got memed on and the legend of freestyle samurai started. It's very hyperbolical example of someone who was really just mashing his button as he wanted, but difficulty of playing SAM has definitely lowered significantly since that time, so we are getting closer and closer to the legendary freestyle samurai. Long story short, my comment was just a hyperbole.

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I wouldn't be surprised if that term became a thing in late Stormblood where the high skillspeed shinten spam SAM was a legitimate playstyle that put out competitive numbers while being basically just button mashing.

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Originally Posted by Deo14

Could you start engaging discussions with actual arguments, instead of moving goalposts wherever you desire with stuff like ""Akshually, I meant that 100% of people doesn't agree with it".

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Goalpost move??

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Originally Posted by Ggwppino

So is it stupid that your job, most likely main, got neutered overnight because they woke up crooked? So is it silly that with unanimous complaints, designers and devs have blatantly ignored community feedback? Maybe he's one of the least stupid, maybe.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Believe it or not, the complaints are not unanimous.

Again, there are theory crafters, guide makers, etc that can give reasoned arguments for why Kaiten's removal was not a bad thing/was a good thing. On other forums (not this one for some reason), the position is not unanimous. Reddit, for example, but r/ffxiv and r/ffxivdiscussion (which is more technically minded people discussing mechanics and stuff) has dissent against Kaiten being a good ability.

I'm not saying one way or the other - both sides, imo, have good arguments - but I am saying complaints are not unanimous.

.

Oh, and don't get me wrong, I don't know that removing Kaiten WAS a good idea. I'm just pointing out there is more discussion/disagreement on the topic than skimming this forum would suggest.

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That was LITERALLY the goalpost!

If you people would stop using hyperbole like "unanimous" to bolster your argument, no one would need to point out it's not, in fact, unanimous. You can't use something as an argument in support of your position then get upset when someone shows that argument is faulty.

There ARE arguments to make to bring Kaiten back. Claiming that everyone agrees it should be back is not one of them. It's literally that simple. It's the same reason we had that discussion in the Healer thread, because people there were (and still are/do) trying to rest their argument on the force of unanimity that doesn't exist.

But who am I kidding, you never have a good argument, you just try to discredit the person you're arguing with and use that to support discarding their argument without actually addressing it: The definition of an ad hominem fallacy.

And what are you talking about? I posted the data with links quite some time ago on the player numbers. I referenced the Bancho numbers and the Wayback Machine ones. o.O Why even bother giving you links when you're going to pretend they didn't exist?

.

Anyway, I've already made my case. There are arguments on both sides, there is not unanimous support for bringing it back, and people miss it for various reasons including but not limited to the animation, the feel of it in the rotation, the spam it's been replaced with, the big dopamine hit it would give, the complexity some people felt it added to the Job, rose-tinted goggles, and memes.

But, as you want to throw down the gauntlet, and since we're bringing up other threads and parts of the forum now for REASONS, I think someone in general (who I often disagree with), said it best:

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

Discussing a topic you are passionate about in one thread is not the same thing as being so obsessed with one skill in a video game that you feel the need to post numerous threads about it over the course of months, if not longer. (I'm not looking through their post history as I value my sanity)

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Originally Posted by AlexiaD

yeah this obsession is weird, miss me out on that, really cringe at this point tbh

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I don't typically agree with either of these people, but they kind of called this one right.

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

Kaiten itself wasn't really a very interesting button, it just offered a different button to press than Shinten. So instead of reimplementing Kaiten, why not design a better ability that uses Kenki? That solves the actual issue at hand while also making SAM more interesting than either pre or post Kaiten removal.

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I was just replying to two people earlier in the thread, one who asked a question and one who presented an over-broad unanimity argument. The rest from there is up to other people. o/

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

I wouldn't be surprised if that term became a thing in late Stormblood where the high skillspeed shinten spam SAM was a legitimate playstyle that put out competitive numbers while being basically just button mashing.

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This is a bit of a conflation. Stormblood high-SkS SAM spent a smaller portion of its Kenki on Shinten because Hagakure's resource-per-minute did not scale with SkS. Its portion of damage coming from Shinten was even smaller still, as their dominant secondary stat (SkS) doesn't affect oGCD damage. Finally, though, it wasn't much less complex, as it still tried to maximize Hagakure's resource-per-minute, to only faintly less punishment (since, again, it got less value out of all Kenki spenders except Kaiten) than Crit/DHit builds.

High SkS SAM was competitive... if played optimally. High SkS SAM played by "basically button mashing" was not competitive.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

I don't typically agree with either of these people, but they kind of called this one right.

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

Kaiten itself wasn't really a very interesting button, it just offered a different button to press than Shinten. So instead of reimplementing Kaiten, why not design a better ability that uses Kenki? That solves the actual issue at hand while also making SAM more interesting than either pre or post Kaiten removal.

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This is a argument, but I wouldn't exactly call it an argument for kaiten's removal; Its more... arguing for a rework of kaiten. But let's break it down:

People are protesting against the removal of kaiten, but I don't think kaiten's removal is exactly what offends them... Its the gaping hole in samurai's rotation where kaiten used to be which is causing a lot of SAM players to be enraged, myself included. As the protestors have made it abundantly clear, every single reason listed by SE for kaiten's removal doesn't make sense, and we have never had a proper response from the dev team, so they are mad. If SE responded by adding a new and interesting ability to fill that gaping hole... I don't think anyone would be nearly as angry (Of course some people would, but there is always going to be someone upset when change happens).

That being said... what would be a good thing to replace kaiten? IE, not something that is just [SPEND X AMOUNT OF KENKI, DEAL X POTENCY] with a cd. Sure, kaiten does seem like a basic skill... but it did do a pretty good job at what it was designed to do: Make sure you are managing your kenki right so you do proper damage with your big hitting attacks. I'm not even against this comment... I'm sure there are plenty of great ideas on kaiten reworks that would make SAM more fun and more engaging. I would be interested to hear ideas on potential abilities/reworks that would do what kaiten did, but better.

In essence of everything I just said, while that quote is an interesting discussion, it isn't really a argument for samurai's current condition, nor is it a counter to the "Bring back Kaiten" movement.

Edit:

After finishing writing this comment, I went and actually read the entirety of the post that Renathras was quoting... and the one line he removed from this paragraph is basically a summary of what this entire comment was about LOL

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

Most of the people that were mad over its removal aren't even really that mad about Kaiten itself, they're mad that SAM's rotation has devolved into Shinten spam. Kaiten itself wasn't really a very interesting button, it just offered a different button to press than Shinten. So instead of reimplementing Kaiten, why not design a better ability that uses Kenki? That solves the actual issue at hand while also making SAM more interesting than either pre or post Kaiten removal.

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(There is still more to this post I'm not quoting)

I don't entirely agree with this comment, I do think that kaiten was good at doing what it was designed to do... but again, I'd be open to ideas.

I stopped playing since they removed enochian









/s

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

You do realize the ones wanting Kaiten back are also usually the ones pushing for more "Melee"-like gameplay, such as tighter boss hitboxes, harder uptime management, conal AoEs that thereby require movement into and out of mob packs, etc., right?

While a buff to gameplay, it's objectively more effort for no increase in reward.

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Not sure why you quoted/replied in a post before my own, weird.

Pushing? Where?
All I see is posts about this same tired zombie of a subject, topic after topic.
Where is the post that says "I was almost gonna play FF14 again, but then I realized my melee could hit the boss from across the room"?
The person at fanfest didn't have a 25 yard long katana prop, they had a "bring back kaiten" poster. (though it would have been funny)
The people with obnoxious Kaiten signatures never had "Shrink boss hitboxes!!!" signatures.
No threads about "Revert 6.05 changes!!", even square shrugged it off and said whatever despite the changes being literal miscommunication between the staff.

It's ok Crit dungeons fixed everything
small hitboxes with lots and lots of uptime management for melee
now we need to fix Kaiten coming back

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Originally Posted by kayll

[There are] No threads about "Revert 6.05 changes!!", even square shrugged it off and said whatever despite the changes being literal miscommunication between the staff.

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Celest, you around?? Still got the list of the dozen or so threads requesting reverts to 6.0 or late-Shadowbringers gameplay (w/ small additions/adjustments)?

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The people with obnoxious Kaiten signatures never had "Shrink boss hitboxes!!!" signatures.

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Riiigght... because signatures are the place to put in-depth, highly-contextualized feedback, rather than typically being best used synecdochally through some salient example?

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Where is the post that says "I was almost gonna play FF14 again, but then I realized my melee could hit the boss from across the room"?

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Look at any of the threads about gameplay that actually have Melee posting in them, instead of just ranged DPS pushing for the removal of all positionals and range constraints so that Melee could finally appeal to them (instead of, you know, playing the shit that was intended for those who like neither positionals nor range constraints)?

Hell, just go to any WAR thread that so much as mentions Overpower, and you'll see SAMs empathizing with the loss of conal AoEs and the movement having both conals and radials used to provide.

Again, not every "QoL buff" is well-received. Many prefer active gameplay over that value being provided for free.